Current state of elementalists

[Eyeball]

It's been a while since we had a magicker thread, so here goes!   

Now that there has been some time to digest the effects of karma regeneration (and the presumed impact it's had on the number of karma characters in-game), what are peoples' current views on the level of presence of elementalist magick in the game?

Is it more or less invisible or just showing up everywhere?

Are rogues out of control?

Are the Gemmed an endangered species or are they crowding mundanes out of the Gaj?

Do most elementalists end up dying unmanifested? Is it because of mishaps while they try to train up their mundane career first? Or do they never reach the point where becoming an outcast weighs favorably enough to start casting spells?

What do people think?

EDIT: could it be that, given the lack of complaining lately, that people are actually happy??

[Veselka]

Magick sucks.

Kill'm all.

Honestly, haven't noticed more or less of Magick in the world since all of the changes. Sure, some of your best buddies might be filthy 'gickers. But they're just as likely to be backstabbing, good for nothing thieves, assassins, and shitheads.

I think the changes were for the best. I could do with a heavy dose of 'All Fucking Powerful Magi', but only now and again, and that seems to be the case right now.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Just before the changes to magick, it seemed to me that gemmed mages hanging out in the Gaj was becoming a common sight. Now, I don't see it as often. Probably there are as many folks playing mages as ever, maybe more, but there is definitely an advantage now to not manifesting too soon.  Perhaps an unintended consequence of this change is that people die while trying to skill up their mundane side, and because of that, magick seems more rare. A good thing certainly, and if it was intended to work out that way, staff is pretty ingenious.

I don't really play mages very often, but the way the docs describe it, a person could live for years before they manifest, and it only makes good sense that they would have developed skills and abilities just as any other person would, so with that perspective, I think the changes made were definitely positive in a game lore sort of way.

[Lizzie]

I still dislike the current situation for the exact reason that Veselka likes it. Everyone and their brother is a mage, or is pals with one, or is related to one. There's nothing special about magicks anymore. Might as well take the gems off, stop hunting them down, and just assume everyone comes with some innate abilities like psi/contact/barrier/expel are all innate psionics abilities of mundanes.

There's nothing about elemental mages now, that makes them any more dangerous than backstabbing, good for nothing thieves. I can't get excited about bounties against them, I can't get excited to play them, I can't enjoy the RP of being surprised or upset or impressed when my character is in their presence.

My character will still react to them however I've set her up to react. But I, the player, no longer feel any fear in their presence because I, the player, know that if I'm in less danger from the mage than I am from a sneaky elf with a tainted dagger.

The whole reason they were so awesome was *because* they were "overpowered." And players needed to learn to respect that, and treat it as such. It wasn't the system that failed, it was the playerbase and lack of world-reaction enforcement to the overpoweredness of them. Sort of like when the giants took over Red Storm East and the world echoes and room descriptions reflected more hungry people, rioters, etc - but the prices in the shops didn't change at all. You still could buy a travel cake for 8 sids (or whatever it is).

I'm of the opinion now that full-class mages should exist. Same opinion I had when the change was first announced. I'd give more wiggleroom to my opinion and add that I'd be FINE if these full-class mages were either special-app only, or staff-sponsored (secret) roles only offered to full 3-karma players.

Allow them to be treated exactly as mages are being treated now -AND allow for the playerbase to decide, through their RP of situations that arise, how to treat them in the future.

[Riev]

I feel as though there are less gemmed about, now. Or at least, WILLING gemmed PCs. I don't know if that has to do with magick, the oversight, the Templars, the plots, or anything that could be influencing that.

I think its easier to be a rogue magicker now, and living off the land is just so much easier to do.
It is easier to hide, as a subguild, so the "threat" of anyone being a magicker is there.

I have a hard time RPing the fear of magickers now, because it seems everyone has a touch of the taint, now.
I do see magickers as still being powerful, despite being split up.

[number13]

>There's nothing about elemental mages now, that makes them any more dangerous than backstabbing, good for nothing thieves.

I don't really like the magic system in this game, and so I don't play elementalists very often. And I'm terrible at this game, besides. So, I know I might be wrong about all of the below:

That said, my two longest lived characters were both of a particular magic type -- one prior to the change, and one after the change to elementalist sub-guilds.

The post-change character felt *significantly* more dangerous than the full class elementalist, and that character certainly, without any doubt, was much, much more dangerous than every other mundane or touched character around her sphere, with one exception -- and that exception isn't even possible to pull off anymore, since you can't get master sneak/hide and master backstab on the same character anymore.

[ShaLeah]

Let me preface this by saying I love the additions to the magick system. I love the fact that that merchant/hunter/soldier can now secretly be a gick. Not that we couldn't do this before but with the addition of the subguilds we have made mundane people scarier... and magickers less than so. So!

What I do not like is the removal of full elementals. I would prefer it if we would have KEPT the full magicks (yes, Sorceror too) and ADDED those subguilds so that we could have full blown krathi zapping the fuck out of you with an elkran lightning bolt.

Get on the shal-hashtag bandwagon:
#bringbackfullmagicks

Make them all 3 karma. Please.

[Brytta Léofa]

There's nothing about elemental mages now, that makes them any more dangerous than backstabbing, good for nothing thieves.

Might be halfway true of the first iteration of magick subguilds, but very inaccurate today.

[mansa]

I'm happy.

[Jihelu]

I'm fine with it. I wish most, if not all, Magicker guilds were 1-2 karma with 3 being reserved for full guilds (Or 3 being the ones staff doesn't want people to have, the fun drovian ones/nilazi/krathis, and 3 + spec app being full guilds) but I'm content with the current situation.

Lets you play a mundane warrior with a significant powerful edge should you need it or 'insert any arch-type with the same edge-, so thats fun.

You wind up being mundanely less significant, a fighter with a magick subguild is basically a fighter that can fight better unless you pick a very utility based magick subguild.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I have only made one since the change and I got raptor gibbed before I did much of anything.  It was my fault, I was trying to secret base out in the wild.  It seems like I see gemmed fairly often, but not as much, probably because of what others stated about not manifesting or needing to manifest.

[number13]

  It seems like I see gemmed fairly often, but not as much, probably because of what others stated about not manifesting or needing to manifest.

Allanak in general seems depopulated, though. Probably the ratio of gemmed magickers to 'ordinary' citizens is about the same as it's always been.

[Hauwke]

Where even are all the players lately? Like damn, 54 people online and I see no one?

[Lizzie]

Where even are all the players lately? Like damn, 54 people online and I see no one?

Well now that I knew you weren't one of the five people I saw all together in that one place, I killed that group. Thanks!

[Harmless]

i played multiple magickers since the change and before

I don't think that there are more or less magickers, really, because of the same assumptions above, that more magickers are "hidden", but I have no way of knowing

I think the karma changes are okay, but I am actually afraid to app or non-app a karma role because I just know my luck will suck and I'll get ganked and lose the karma investment

I will repeat this: I don't know that removing full magickers makes any sense at this point, with new karma restrictions they can be pretty rare, and won't impact game too badly really, they had major "balance" problems, and it might help restore some of the gemmed RP which I think is becoming less common.

this comes from like 100+ days played (jesus, maybe 200+ days played, I don't know anymore), both with and without subguild mages since the change.

[titansfan]

Ive played only one short lived character with the new subs for magick and it was neat. Granted it was only a touched sub, but I appreciate the idea of being a person first, mage second. I always thought the grind of making a magicker real strong was jarring with the old way. You spend so much time going through these spells then suddenly you're out wrecking balling the Known. Its still possible, except now you have the utility skills and combat on top.

I'll be trying more subs to give better opinions in time. 

[Heade]

So, I like that elementalists have some access to a normal guild for mundane skills now. That was something that I always thought mages should have available to them. That said, I think I would prefer it if elementalists were like they used to be, except in subclass form. So, they got their entire list of spells. Then touched could instead be sort of a mix between what touched and elementalists are right now. This would push the power level of both elementalists and touched up, which I think would be a good thing. And while we're at it, I'd like to see the same done to sorcerers. Make it a subclass still, but with the entire sorcery spell list. The entire point of sorcery was that it was learned/acquired magick, giving you access to a far broader range of abilities than elementalists have, but making you despised and hunted all over the known. Much of that was lost with the dividing of sorcery into different categories, and it really doesn't make much sense lore-wise that PC sorcerers are so limited when NPCs are not. Sorcerers are now much closer in power level to an elementalist, which was never how it was supposed to be, based on history and lore.

In summation,  I think making all magick classes subguilds is a good thing, but as subguilds, they should be just as powerful as when they were full guilds. The sole change that should occur from making them subguilds is to give magick characters more mundane skills, making them more powerful, and more able to blend in with other PCs.

[Synthesis]

Magickers are still plenty powerful.  Putting a full spell-list on top of a full primary guild would be bonkers.  That's what sorcs are for.

[Cabooze]

Magickers are still plenty powerful.  Putting a full spell-list on top of a full primary guild would be bonkers.  That's what sorcs are for.

Agreed.

But full-guild gicker with one of the newer subguilds would be at the same level of balance, as x guild as a subguild gicker.

[number13]

I only know the complete spell list of one elementalist subguild, and it's nearly exhaustive. Almost every spell from the full class elementalist I would want to have is in that list.

If anything, they are already overpowered compared to mundane counterpart extended subguilds at the same karma level.

[titansfan]

I only know the complete spell list of one elementalist subguild, and it's nearly exhaustive. Almost every spell from the full class elementalist I would want to have is in that list.

If anything, they are already overpowered compared to mundane counterpart extended subguilds at the same karma level.

That's good to hear that they still hold good quantities of spells.  That was my biggest worry was that they'd be one trick ponies in comparison.

I've seen a decent amount of mages out and about so they must be enjoyable in one way or another.

[Heade]

Magickers are still plenty powerful.  Putting a full spell-list on top of a full primary guild would be bonkers.  That's what sorcs are for.

But sorcs got nerfed too. At least give sorcs the full sorcs list as a subguild.

[Delirium]

I don't think... you realize... just how incredibly bonkers OP that would be.

Having experience with an almost fully branched old-school sorc, and having played with one who was...

They would be indestructible.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I don't think... you realize... just how incredibly bonkers OP that would be.

Having experience with an almost fully branched old-school sorc, and having played with one who was...

They would be indestructible.

Then gate it behind lots of branching? Isn't that how magick is supposed to work that isn't just inherent? You have to learn it and it's time consuming and hard, but you can literally learn anything short of taking the form of a dragon (and I'm not even sure that's not possible at some point). This way there are zillions more opportunities to get discovered.

It badly reflects on the reality of the lore in their current state. Or what I understand to be their current state. The info on sorcerers now is hardly descriptive and for allI know they could all end up in the exact same place. Though I've never played a sorc.

The funny thing is- that awful Jman plateau would work really well for sorcerers. That way each path you choose EVENTUALLY leads to the same destination, but takes you a different route and requires you to take more and more increasing risks to become closer and closer to a living god.

[Brokkr]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.