Current state of elementalists

[Eyeball]

It's been a while since we had a magicker thread, so here goes!   

Now that there has been some time to digest the effects of karma regeneration (and the presumed impact it's had on the number of karma characters in-game), what are peoples' current views on the level of presence of elementalist magick in the game?

Is it more or less invisible or just showing up everywhere?

Are rogues out of control?

Are the Gemmed an endangered species or are they crowding mundanes out of the Gaj?

Do most elementalists end up dying unmanifested? Is it because of mishaps while they try to train up their mundane career first? Or do they never reach the point where becoming an outcast weighs favorably enough to start casting spells?

What do people think?

EDIT: could it be that, given the lack of complaining lately, that people are actually happy??

[Veselka]

Magick sucks.

Kill'm all.

Honestly, haven't noticed more or less of Magick in the world since all of the changes. Sure, some of your best buddies might be filthy 'gickers. But they're just as likely to be backstabbing, good for nothing thieves, assassins, and shitheads.

I think the changes were for the best. I could do with a heavy dose of 'All Fucking Powerful Magi', but only now and again, and that seems to be the case right now.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Just before the changes to magick, it seemed to me that gemmed mages hanging out in the Gaj was becoming a common sight. Now, I don't see it as often. Probably there are as many folks playing mages as ever, maybe more, but there is definitely an advantage now to not manifesting too soon.  Perhaps an unintended consequence of this change is that people die while trying to skill up their mundane side, and because of that, magick seems more rare. A good thing certainly, and if it was intended to work out that way, staff is pretty ingenious.

I don't really play mages very often, but the way the docs describe it, a person could live for years before they manifest, and it only makes good sense that they would have developed skills and abilities just as any other person would, so with that perspective, I think the changes made were definitely positive in a game lore sort of way.

[Lizzie]

I still dislike the current situation for the exact reason that Veselka likes it. Everyone and their brother is a mage, or is pals with one, or is related to one. There's nothing special about magicks anymore. Might as well take the gems off, stop hunting them down, and just assume everyone comes with some innate abilities like psi/contact/barrier/expel are all innate psionics abilities of mundanes.

There's nothing about elemental mages now, that makes them any more dangerous than backstabbing, good for nothing thieves. I can't get excited about bounties against them, I can't get excited to play them, I can't enjoy the RP of being surprised or upset or impressed when my character is in their presence.

My character will still react to them however I've set her up to react. But I, the player, no longer feel any fear in their presence because I, the player, know that if I'm in less danger from the mage than I am from a sneaky elf with a tainted dagger.

The whole reason they were so awesome was *because* they were "overpowered." And players needed to learn to respect that, and treat it as such. It wasn't the system that failed, it was the playerbase and lack of world-reaction enforcement to the overpoweredness of them. Sort of like when the giants took over Red Storm East and the world echoes and room descriptions reflected more hungry people, rioters, etc - but the prices in the shops didn't change at all. You still could buy a travel cake for 8 sids (or whatever it is).

I'm of the opinion now that full-class mages should exist. Same opinion I had when the change was first announced. I'd give more wiggleroom to my opinion and add that I'd be FINE if these full-class mages were either special-app only, or staff-sponsored (secret) roles only offered to full 3-karma players.

Allow them to be treated exactly as mages are being treated now -AND allow for the playerbase to decide, through their RP of situations that arise, how to treat them in the future.

[Riev]

I feel as though there are less gemmed about, now. Or at least, WILLING gemmed PCs. I don't know if that has to do with magick, the oversight, the Templars, the plots, or anything that could be influencing that.

I think its easier to be a rogue magicker now, and living off the land is just so much easier to do.
It is easier to hide, as a subguild, so the "threat" of anyone being a magicker is there.

I have a hard time RPing the fear of magickers now, because it seems everyone has a touch of the taint, now.
I do see magickers as still being powerful, despite being split up.

[number13]

>There's nothing about elemental mages now, that makes them any more dangerous than backstabbing, good for nothing thieves.

I don't really like the magic system in this game, and so I don't play elementalists very often. And I'm terrible at this game, besides. So, I know I might be wrong about all of the below:

That said, my two longest lived characters were both of a particular magic type -- one prior to the change, and one after the change to elementalist sub-guilds.

The post-change character felt *significantly* more dangerous than the full class elementalist, and that character certainly, without any doubt, was much, much more dangerous than every other mundane or touched character around her sphere, with one exception -- and that exception isn't even possible to pull off anymore, since you can't get master sneak/hide and master backstab on the same character anymore.

[ShaLeah]

Let me preface this by saying I love the additions to the magick system. I love the fact that that merchant/hunter/soldier can now secretly be a gick. Not that we couldn't do this before but with the addition of the subguilds we have made mundane people scarier... and magickers less than so. So!

What I do not like is the removal of full elementals. I would prefer it if we would have KEPT the full magicks (yes, Sorceror too) and ADDED those subguilds so that we could have full blown krathi zapping the fuck out of you with an elkran lightning bolt.

Get on the shal-hashtag bandwagon:
#bringbackfullmagicks

Make them all 3 karma. Please.

[Brytta Léofa]

There's nothing about elemental mages now, that makes them any more dangerous than backstabbing, good for nothing thieves.

Might be halfway true of the first iteration of magick subguilds, but very inaccurate today.

[mansa]

I'm happy.

[Jihelu]

I'm fine with it. I wish most, if not all, Magicker guilds were 1-2 karma with 3 being reserved for full guilds (Or 3 being the ones staff doesn't want people to have, the fun drovian ones/nilazi/krathis, and 3 + spec app being full guilds) but I'm content with the current situation.

Lets you play a mundane warrior with a significant powerful edge should you need it or 'insert any arch-type with the same edge-, so thats fun.

You wind up being mundanely less significant, a fighter with a magick subguild is basically a fighter that can fight better unless you pick a very utility based magick subguild.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I have only made one since the change and I got raptor gibbed before I did much of anything.  It was my fault, I was trying to secret base out in the wild.  It seems like I see gemmed fairly often, but not as much, probably because of what others stated about not manifesting or needing to manifest.

[number13]

  It seems like I see gemmed fairly often, but not as much, probably because of what others stated about not manifesting or needing to manifest.

Allanak in general seems depopulated, though. Probably the ratio of gemmed magickers to 'ordinary' citizens is about the same as it's always been.

[Hauwke]

Where even are all the players lately? Like damn, 54 people online and I see no one?

[Lizzie]

Where even are all the players lately? Like damn, 54 people online and I see no one?

Well now that I knew you weren't one of the five people I saw all together in that one place, I killed that group. Thanks!

[Harmless]

i played multiple magickers since the change and before

I don't think that there are more or less magickers, really, because of the same assumptions above, that more magickers are "hidden", but I have no way of knowing

I think the karma changes are okay, but I am actually afraid to app or non-app a karma role because I just know my luck will suck and I'll get ganked and lose the karma investment

I will repeat this: I don't know that removing full magickers makes any sense at this point, with new karma restrictions they can be pretty rare, and won't impact game too badly really, they had major "balance" problems, and it might help restore some of the gemmed RP which I think is becoming less common.

this comes from like 100+ days played (jesus, maybe 200+ days played, I don't know anymore), both with and without subguild mages since the change.

[titansfan]

Ive played only one short lived character with the new subs for magick and it was neat. Granted it was only a touched sub, but I appreciate the idea of being a person first, mage second. I always thought the grind of making a magicker real strong was jarring with the old way. You spend so much time going through these spells then suddenly you're out wrecking balling the Known. Its still possible, except now you have the utility skills and combat on top.

I'll be trying more subs to give better opinions in time. 

[Heade]

So, I like that elementalists have some access to a normal guild for mundane skills now. That was something that I always thought mages should have available to them. That said, I think I would prefer it if elementalists were like they used to be, except in subclass form. So, they got their entire list of spells. Then touched could instead be sort of a mix between what touched and elementalists are right now. This would push the power level of both elementalists and touched up, which I think would be a good thing. And while we're at it, I'd like to see the same done to sorcerers. Make it a subclass still, but with the entire sorcery spell list. The entire point of sorcery was that it was learned/acquired magick, giving you access to a far broader range of abilities than elementalists have, but making you despised and hunted all over the known. Much of that was lost with the dividing of sorcery into different categories, and it really doesn't make much sense lore-wise that PC sorcerers are so limited when NPCs are not. Sorcerers are now much closer in power level to an elementalist, which was never how it was supposed to be, based on history and lore.

In summation,  I think making all magick classes subguilds is a good thing, but as subguilds, they should be just as powerful as when they were full guilds. The sole change that should occur from making them subguilds is to give magick characters more mundane skills, making them more powerful, and more able to blend in with other PCs.

[Synthesis]

Magickers are still plenty powerful.  Putting a full spell-list on top of a full primary guild would be bonkers.  That's what sorcs are for.

[Cabooze]

Magickers are still plenty powerful.  Putting a full spell-list on top of a full primary guild would be bonkers.  That's what sorcs are for.

Agreed.

But full-guild gicker with one of the newer subguilds would be at the same level of balance, as x guild as a subguild gicker.

[number13]

I only know the complete spell list of one elementalist subguild, and it's nearly exhaustive. Almost every spell from the full class elementalist I would want to have is in that list.

If anything, they are already overpowered compared to mundane counterpart extended subguilds at the same karma level.

[titansfan]

I only know the complete spell list of one elementalist subguild, and it's nearly exhaustive. Almost every spell from the full class elementalist I would want to have is in that list.

If anything, they are already overpowered compared to mundane counterpart extended subguilds at the same karma level.

That's good to hear that they still hold good quantities of spells.  That was my biggest worry was that they'd be one trick ponies in comparison.

I've seen a decent amount of mages out and about so they must be enjoyable in one way or another.

[Heade]

Magickers are still plenty powerful.  Putting a full spell-list on top of a full primary guild would be bonkers.  That's what sorcs are for.

But sorcs got nerfed too. At least give sorcs the full sorcs list as a subguild.

[Delirium]

I don't think... you realize... just how incredibly bonkers OP that would be.

Having experience with an almost fully branched old-school sorc, and having played with one who was...

They would be indestructible.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I don't think... you realize... just how incredibly bonkers OP that would be.

Having experience with an almost fully branched old-school sorc, and having played with one who was...

They would be indestructible.

Then gate it behind lots of branching? Isn't that how magick is supposed to work that isn't just inherent? You have to learn it and it's time consuming and hard, but you can literally learn anything short of taking the form of a dragon (and I'm not even sure that's not possible at some point). This way there are zillions more opportunities to get discovered.

It badly reflects on the reality of the lore in their current state. Or what I understand to be their current state. The info on sorcerers now is hardly descriptive and for allI know they could all end up in the exact same place. Though I've never played a sorc.

The funny thing is- that awful Jman plateau would work really well for sorcerers. That way each path you choose EVENTUALLY leads to the same destination, but takes you a different route and requires you to take more and more increasing risks to become closer and closer to a living god.

[Brokkr]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

I was speaking in reference to the sorcerer king, the current pinnacle of magickal power within the game. I figure even at a sorcerer's most powerful they never were (and will never be) even a fraction as powerful as any dragon. You can edge closer and closer to something without ever being anywhere near it.

But it's hardly a hill I want to die on. It's saddening to know that I missed out on something as versatile before, but I doubt they suffered very much from the schism of the magickal paths. I'm confident this was actually a good choice from a balance perspective, though traditionally the three karma classes have been a Balance-out-the-window sort of thing.

[kahuna]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

I really appreciate this post from a balance perspective. It's good to know that I have a fighting chance whether I've got a raider or a fighter.. to at least kill even the most powerful of races/classes. If you put in the time and effort you won't completely destroyed just because someone has more karma than you.

[Synthesis]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

I really appreciate this post from a balance perspective. It's good to know that I have a fighting chance whether I've got a raider or a fighter.. to at least kill even the most powerful of races/classes. If you put in the time and effort you won't completely destroyed just because someone has more karma than you.

Lol, listen man...one-on-one, you have no chance against any non-noob sorc.  Zero chance.

Even as a near-maxed warrior/elementalist, a sorc will completely wreck your ass.  There is an enormous gulf between "god-tier" and "I have a fighting chance."  Sorcs live in that space.  You do not have a fighting chance, but they aren't god-tier.  There is no balance, in the one-on-one sense.  The balance is in terms of...okay, a group of PCs might be able to take this PC out without staff intervention.

If a sorc runs across you solo in the wastes, you beg for your life and give them whatever they want, unless you're ready to roll up a new PC.

[Dar]

I played a merchant/sorc. Specifically picking a main guild that is "not" powerful in terms of combat. And I 'still' was crazy stupid silly powerful in so many avenues. I'll be honest, I'm glad that full sorcs are gone.

I 'would' be open to a way for a fledgeling sorc to become a full sorc at the price of losing their main guild affinity and spending a few rl years on the way towards it. I 'would' be open for sorcs and magickers to have  vaguely described methods of occasionally attaining new spells.

[Bebop]

I personally like where the magicker classes have gone.  Insta-dying across the fucking planet because someone had a Whiran for a few weeks sucked.

[Veselka]

I think Brokrr points out the real reason Full Sorcerers were split up into different fields of focus. If/When they got to endgame with their complete max'd out spell list, there was really nothing outside of Staff Intervention that could counteract them. I think it's rather silly that you either depend on hubris/code mistakes for a Sorcerer of that level to get killed themselves (thinking they have a certain spell active but they don't, so they fall to their death, or accidentally wander into the Sea of Silt), or having max'd out NPCs combatting them in order to level the playing field.

As Synthesis pointed out, even sub-guild Sorcs are stupid powerful, but they can still be killed/dealt with either by Templars or a gaggle of fuckwads. I prefer things to be in the hands of PCs instead of NPCs where that is concerned.

[Veselka]

I personally like where the magicker classes have gone.  Insta-dying across the fucking planet because someone had a Whiran for a few weeks sucked.

I agree, this sucked. It also sucked how willing people were to deal with Whirans of this level because it meant 'insta death / plot closure' with little to no consequence or tie-back. I much rather prefer having to hire an assassin, they potentially failing, or succeeding. It's also kind of why I dislike Drovians -- Instant Secret Broker, no real consequence to the actions. I like fallibility built into the system, even if it's miniscule.

[Eyeball]

If the spell was removed from spell lists, it didn't have to be. It could have been changed to only work if the target purposely wasn't resisting magicks.

[Erythil]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

[X-D]

I will admit...I do not like the new main classes...they are soulless IMO. As to the mage subs....I almost like them. They still need work. I think the last balance into which spells they get is a good one. Now the spells themselves need to be balanced on costs and power etc. As it sits, most of the classes are in the "Oooh...this is a cool spell...Oh wait...it is basically useless for this reason or that." It is pretty amazing how anemic most the spells in arm are, specially when you do not have the full mage class backing it. The old mage classes and spells worked because they were made for each other.  This is no longer the case.

And so...the new mage subs are VERY anemic and barely viable, not in the least bit scary and definitally not worth the karma costs. Many mundane combos are way scarier and more powerful, some of them cost no karma at all.

That all being said, There is potential....should the spells of each sub be tweaked to that sub. Some spells should be changed completely as to what they do.

[kahuna]

I will admit...I do not like the new main classes...they are soulless IMO. As to the mage subs....I almost like them. They still need work. I think the last balance into which spells they get is a good one. Now the spells themselves need to be balanced on costs and power etc. As it sits, most of the classes are in the "Oooh...this is a cool spell...Oh wait...it is basically useless for this reason or that." It is pretty amazing how anemic most the spells in arm are, specially when you do not have the full mage class backing it. The old mage classes and spells worked because they were made for each other.  This is no longer the case.

And so...the new mage subs are VERY anemic and barely viable, not in the least bit scary and definitally not worth the karma costs. Many mundane combos are way scarier and more powerful, some of them cost no karma at all.

That all being said, There is potential....should the spells of each sub be tweaked to that sub. Some spells should be changed completely as to what they do.

Completely disagree. I think the new classes are way better balanced than the old ones. There is a lot more variety and objectively you have way more options to really narrow down what you might want/need from each class.

Magick is still very powerful, considering you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal. Otherwise there are still very powerful spells that are game changing. Power is subjective, there are too many scenarios to determine what is or isn't powerful, it just all depends on the scenario.

[number13]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

If it's just items, every twinked out hunter will own five of each within six RL months.

I'd rather see a high karma witch-hunter sub-class, capable of dispelling enchantments, with dwarfy levels of magic resistance, maybe able to deal with inivisble flying opponents somehow. They could be something that comes out of Tuluk, with RP (and maybe coded) restrictions on dealing with elementalists and sorcs, so that can't just crew up with rogue elementalists.

The way I view things in the game right now, rogue elementalists are essentially the default protagonists of the game, working against the evil templars of Allanak. (That's not far off from the Dark Sun source material.) It could be fun if the Tuluki templars also trained up some opposition for the protagonists, and add a little diversity to the game.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Witch hunters do sound cool.

[Brokkr]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

Not sure what is stopping you?  Unless you want actual stuff that does that instead of just uninformed superstition.  Like modern day witch doctors in Africa giving fighters talismans that they believe will stop bullets, you don't need to act rationally or with physics (code) to back you up.

[X-D]

Completely disagree. I think the new classes are way better balanced than the old ones. There is a lot more variety and objectively you have way more options to really narrow down what you might want/need from each class.

Magick is still very powerful, considering you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal. Otherwise there are still very powerful spells that are game changing. Power is subjective, there are too many scenarios to determine what is or isn't powerful, it just all depends on the scenario.

Well, I do not want to get into old verses new classes here...But we disagree greatly on what balance and variety mean.

And you are not understanding what I said on magick either. First off, I never said "Magick" Was not powerful...it is, after all, magick. I said the subs are not. You are wrong as to using a magick sub (aside from sorc) To become an unstoppable killing machine...ESPECIALLY with a heavy combat main class.  And if that is what you want, you would be FAR FAR FAR better served to take an extended sub since the heavy combat classes lack anything but heavy combat.

Spells very powerful/game changing Meh...of course, so is throw, archery, poison, disarm etc etc etc etc etc. But again, I never said "spells" other then in the context of the subclass. In that context, the spells, which are meant to have an entire tree of spells to back them up, no longer do...making them and the subclasses they belong to very anemic. ESPECIALLY since fully half of the spells in arm are really only there to give you something in between an OK spell and the spell you really want/need This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful. Then there are spells that really are powerful...but because you do not have the other spells to back it up, or mana cost or what have you...really are not. Again, because they were created with a complete mage class in mind.

I stand by my statement. Currently the mage subs are anemic and barely viable at best. Not at all worth the high Karma cost ESPECIALLY when you add in the docs and game world payments you make.

Also, keep in mind, aside from one or two spells in each class that make no sense...I think the current spell trees are good....the problem is more the spells themselves.

Soon I will be putting in a request on my thoughts on the subject...since most of it cannot be talked about here.

[kahuna]

Completely disagree. I think the new classes are way better balanced than the old ones. There is a lot more variety and objectively you have way more options to really narrow down what you might want/need from each class.

Magick is still very powerful, considering you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal. Otherwise there are still very powerful spells that are game changing. Power is subjective, there are too many scenarios to determine what is or isn't powerful, it just all depends on the scenario.

Well, I do not want to get into old verses new classes here...But we disagree greatly on what balance and variety mean.

And you are not understanding what I said on magick either. First off, I never said "Magick" Was not powerful...it is, after all, magick. I said the subs are not. You are wrong as to using a magick sub (aside from sorc) To become an unstoppable killing machine...ESPECIALLY with a heavy combat main class.  And if that is what you want, you would be FAR FAR FAR better served to take an extended sub since the heavy combat classes lack anything but heavy combat.

Spells very powerful/game changing Meh...of course, so is throw, archery, poison, disarm etc etc etc etc etc. But again, I never said "spells" other then in the context of the subclass. In that context, the spells, which are meant to have an entire tree of spells to back them up, no longer do...making them and the subclasses they belong to very anemic. ESPECIALLY since fully half of the spells in arm are really only there to give you something in between an OK spell and the spell you really want/need This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful. Then there are spells that really are powerful...but because you do not have the other spells to back it up, or mana cost or what have you...really are not. Again, because they were created with a complete mage class in mind.

I stand by my statement. Currently the mage subs are anemic and barely viable at best. Not at all worth the high Karma cost ESPECIALLY when you add in the docs and game world payments you make.

Also, keep in mind, aside from one or two spells in each class that make no sense...I think the current spell trees are good....the problem is more the spells themselves.

I can think of many many combinations of heavy combat mixed with a magicker subclass that is far superior to any extended subclass out there. I fail to see how lacking spells means anything when you're able to do things with the spells you do get that no other PC can do or compete with? If you put any magicker subclass/heavy against another heavy/extended subclass there is no way they are winning that fight unless there is a fluke or a strawman scenario like my PC crit fails at the worst possible moment to die which happens 1% of the time. 9/10 times the magicker subclass would win, so I fail to see your point at all.

[Brokkr]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

[X-D]

Because you are wrong.

Sadly I cannot say much more. Maybe if both PCs were in a locked room and the one with the magick sub was the only one with time to prepare.

But then, in a locked room where one PC is prepared the end is normally the same no matter the class or sub.

[X-D]

Brokkr. All main guild mages had more then 22 spells...One of them had over 30.

Unless you are counting the ones made to weaken magick/mages Elkros, drov and nilaz. But I never count them. And even if I did, they all had far fewer "fluff" Spells so the ratio was the same.

[Brokkr]

Incorrect.

But we can talk about that in the request.

[Riev]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

[Lizzie]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

Brokkr is right. None of the main-guild main lists had 30 spells. The lowest were at 19, and most were under 24 each.

My issue is with the combination of spells, though people posting here are insisting that's been adjusted to be more functional than it was when the subclasses were rolled out.

For me though - if I can't "a" and "b" in the same subclass, I'll just not play that subclass, and mourn the loss of that ability to do those two things with the same character.

[Krath]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

Brokkr is right. None of the main-guild main lists had 30 spells. The lowest were at 19, and most were under 24 each.

My issue is with the combination of spells, though people posting here are insisting that's been adjusted to be more functional than it was when the subclasses were rolled out.

For me though - if I can't "a" and "b" in the same subclass, I'll just not play that subclass, and mourn the loss of that ability to do those two things with the same character.

What's frustrating is we have to use our karma and wait for regeneration on subclasses that may or may not have the spells we need for our build.

Hey, I want to be a fighter that can fly and be invisible..What subguild do I pick? Hopefully it's the right one or im fucked for 2-3 months

I want to be a dune trader that can have empower? Which krathi do I pick? Hopefully it is right one or I'm fucked for 2-3 months.

At least with the main guild magicks we knew what spells we were getting. The karma regeneration makes me want to wait until someone post what subguilds get what spells simply because of regeneration. Staff should either put the spells in the help files or you should be able to send in a request and say does subguild x get y spell and get a yes or no response.

And to clarify, YES, the 99% of players picks main guilds and subguilds because of spells and skills.

[titansfan]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

Brokkr is right. None of the main-guild main lists had 30 spells. The lowest were at 19, and most were under 24 each.

My issue is with the combination of spells, though people posting here are insisting that's been adjusted to be more functional than it was when the subclasses were rolled out.

For me though - if I can't "a" and "b" in the same subclass, I'll just not play that subclass, and mourn the loss of that ability to do those two things with the same character.

What's frustrating is we have to use our karma and wait for regeneration on subclasses that may or may not have the spells we need for our build.

Hey, I want to be a fighter that can fly and be invisible..What subguild do I pick? Hopefully it's the right one or im fucked for 2-3 months

I want to be a dune trader that can have empower? Which krathi do I pick? Hopefully it is right one or I'm fucked for 2-3 months.

At least with the main guild magicks we knew what spells we were getting. The karma regeneration makes me want to wait until someone post what subguilds get what spells simply because of regeneration. Staff should either put the spells in the help files or you should be able to send in a request and say does subguild x get y spell and get a yes or no response.

And to clarify, YES, the 99% of players picks main guilds and subguilds because of spells and skills.

+1

[Delirium]

If you have a concept that relies on a specific combination of spells or skills, for whatever reason, you could always open a request with staff and ask for assistance in picking a guild and subguild that fits.

[Krath]

If you have a concept that relies on a specific combination of spells or skills, for whatever reason, you could always open a request with staff and ask for assistance in picking a guild and subguild that fits.

I trust you Delirium, but I want to know from staff:

If I send a request and say I want to player a magicks subguild with "Fireball", which ones get it so I don't waste my karma, will you tell me which options available to me have the spell(s)?

[Eyeball]

you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal.

While magick can certainly enhance a combat character, the days of the unstoppable killing machine are over. My sense is that parry and shield use have been nerfed somehow. Even someone with a fairly modest weapon skill can put hits on a master. The master will prevail one-on-one but not come out unscathed. If you bring a couple of buddies, the master will be hard put to overcome you all.

[Veselka]

I mean, as it should be?

I don't need some unstable, unstoppable 1 PC killing machine to make stories or end them. If a gang of peeps get the drop on you, shots fired.

[Eyeball]

I mean, as it should be?

I don't need some unstable, unstoppable 1 PC killing machine to make stories or end them. If a gang of peeps get the drop on you, shots fired.

Who makes the story then? Who makes a name for himself or herself? Are you going to be remembered if you're just part of a mob? Do you need to be a sponsored role to leave any memory or legacy in Zalanthas now?

[Veselka]

I mean, as it should be?

I don't need some unstable, unstoppable 1 PC killing machine to make stories or end them. If a gang of peeps get the drop on you, shots fired.

Who makes the story then? Who makes a name for himself or herself? Are you going to be remembered if you're just part of a mob? Do you need to be a sponsored role to leave any memory or legacy in Zalanthas now?

I mean, no? Look at past achievements of previous PCs. Some were sponsored roles, many were Templars, some were GMH sponsored roles, some were Independents who made a name for themselves and defied the odds. PC killing machines like Quick are remembered, perhaps rightly so, with trepidation. When you put the power of life and death into the hands of one or two PCs, yeah, shit gets kind of subjective. I don't mind Whiran or Rukkian #102 who's pretty max'd out and stirs shit up, but at the same time, the plot cycle gets old over time.

I don't mind underpowered vs overpowered, or us vs them, or the weak vs the powerful as a trope. But I see at least movement towards it not being 100% stoppable vs %100 unstoppable.

[Eyeball]

I mean, no? Look at past achievements of previous PCs. Some were sponsored roles, many were Templars, some were GMH sponsored roles, some were Independents who made a name for themselves and defied the odds. PC killing machines like Quick are remembered, perhaps rightly so, with trepidation.

No, but then you give an example of someone who made a name for himself with combat prowess by the old system.  I don't see how there will be another Quick.

EDIT: Maybe the heavy combat classes should be renamed "City Pawn', "Outdoors Pawn" and "Criminal Pawn".

[Veselka]

No, I gave an example of a PC (Elkrosian Elf) who was killed dead, and then offered a chance of making a new PC (Nilazi Vampire Race Elf) who then became a weird crazy monster Nilazi creature...

Obviously, the game is changing, and I'm glad that it isn't Staff Pets who are the ones in power. The system seems more fair to me, which I appreciate.

I also wouldn't mind at all if the class names resembled Izdari pieces. I think that would actually be pretty tight.

[Eyeball]

I'm sort of disappointed to see the ability to be a hero squelched. Read any novel and the main character stands out in ability. Who wants to read the story of someone who guarded a gate for a while and then died when a Templar led his squad out to fight spiders or something. Maybe the Templar himself would make a worthy story (i.e. the sponsored role again), but that's it.

EDIT: what does the commoner player even have left? Not strength of arms, not riches, not the ability to write a book for posterity, not the ability to become a great sailor and find a lush new land, nothing. They literally exist now to just survive, unnoticed, or be a clan pawn and die or store, forgotten. What commoner names stand out from the past several years of play? The single one I can think of is Koman Locke. Maybe Ruke. Both from sheer longevity, not from any magnificent deed (that became generally known at least), though. Alright, Albie too. Maybe it's not as bad as I initially thought.

[Hauwke]

Except, you very much can achieve near unstoppable levels in combat. You just need to pick heavy combat and grind your defense up, the problem is that heavy combat doesn't offer much else aside fighting, so they aren't chosen.

At least give it a decent amount of time since the change over for people to get to the same level OF Armali or what have you. A legacy warrior is 100% weaker at 10 days played than a Fighter is at 10 days played, regardless of the use of hack or riposte.

Armor was also changed recently, most things that are frequently used seemed to offer lesser protection to what they used to since most folks went for the highest price, lightest weight item. Now if they want protection they need weight.

Near everything has been changed, but you absolutely can still be a major powerhouse against a half dozen gith or players if you take the time to get to that level.

[Lizzie]

I think the gist of what a lot of people (including myself) are talking about, are the epic legendary legends, myths, stories, surrounding the idea of mages doing epic, legendary, mythological things, that the *players* can reach for, and look back on and say "wow do you remember when this happened? That was insane!"

Knowing that these world-changing things happened, and you were THERE to either see it, participate in it, or cause it, is what has kept so many veterans interested in the game.

But knowing that these types of things can no longer happen (A Quick, a White Rantarri, a Gin, a Sargax, an Anthinius Oash, for example) - makes the "goalposts" a bit short and vanilla.

We don't all want to BE that big legendary thing. But we do all want to have experienced the plotlines that involved it. Even if the experience was as a non-participatory witness.

The fireworks and huge displays and mass deaths and world-wide bounties on "the big bad scary enemy that is a living demonstration of WHY this is a post-apocalyptic world" is what some of us play for, and still hope to experience.

[Lizzie]

you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal.

While magick can certainly enhance a combat character, the days of the unstoppable killing machine are over. My sense is that parry and shield use have been nerfed somehow. Even someone with a fairly modest weapon skill can put hits on a master. The master will prevail one-on-one but not come out unscathed. If you bring a couple of buddies, the master will be hard put to overcome you all.

1. They are only unstoppable when no one tries to stop them on their way up the power-ladder.
2. #1 isn't even actually true. ALL PCs have weaknesses that can be exploited. It's just that some folks with the greatest ability to do so, choose not to do so.
3. Most of the world-changing legendary characters of the past didn't become that way by PKing their way to fame and fortune. They became that way by manipulating their interactions with others - by their PLAYERS being clever enough to pull it off with their characters. The ones who add nothing to the game other than "how powerful can I be when I PK this guy" don't last long, contribute nothing of substance, and are generally forgotten.

[Brokkr]

And the conundrum.  To get remembered for crazy stuff involving magick, you are probably going to have to be in opposition to the established order.  To get remembered generally, you are going to have to smooze within the established order.

I think it is more fair to let players figure out ways to have existing magick be crazy and cool with the ideas they come up with on how to use it, than it is to hand out code that isn't available to everyone in order to make it seem crazy and cool in some instances.

[Kryos]

Going no filter on this one.  I don't do personal attacks, its not my style, but I do bring the heat.  If the hateorade gets too intense, the last part is a thumbs up.

And the conundrum.  To get remembered for crazy stuff involving magick, you are probably going to have to be in opposition to the established order.  To get remembered generally, you are going to have to smooze within the established order.

I think it is more fair to let players figure out ways to have existing magick be crazy and cool with the ideas they come up with on how to use it, than it is to hand out code that isn't available to everyone in order to make it seem crazy and cool in some instances.

Almost all the mythical characters of the past had special things done for them/to them that were not available to others.  Be it near carte blanche from their staff to do as they please while others were kept under a boot of 'no' or quite literally coded powers in some form or another given to them and not others.  Some times both.

Am I jealous:  yes.  Is it a bad thing it happened:  no.

I would like to see it continue to happen, so long as the love is spread and not condensed.  And borrowing wisdom from a friend here:  the best target/most frequent should be new players.  Not 100%, but you get the idea.

Using Jung's observational method and occum's razor one should conclude: what is, is not good enough.  This is why people want more and act in ways to try and get it.  And why, at its core, is that this is fun for nearly all types of players.

So stone walling around this weird position of not wanting to just makes the game less fun for everyone.

As for the original post:

I only have so much play time/variance on what I've done magick wise with the new mage esc.  But I can read, and I can deduce and use previous experience as well as what I've garnered to make a pretty solid statement.  The state of magick users as I see it:  bad.   But maybe not so much for some of the reasons being stated earlier.

The state of Classes and their specifically aenemic varieties that DEMAND a sub guild to be played, and feel limp without a ESC do not share a holistic design with the mage sub guilds.  In my opinion there's still some bad lays on the ESC and classes themselves, too.  And not just from a lack of things, some times the scarcity in classes has bolstered already 'bad' behaviors to even greater heights making them basically untouchable.  There's a magick subclass or two that suffers from this effect.  It needs work.  As far as I can tell, as soon as people figure one of the few of these out, there's a massive gout of their existence in the game.  Its fucking stupid.

I don't think Karma was solved right.  I don't think spend/regain of all karma solves the problem that just bores me to tears or makes me sigh every time I see it.  Nor does it leave most of the players I've talked to about it happy in the slightest (and this is always #1).  You can still more or less just repeat the 'same' character in the same position over and over and over.   

I'd be happier of lock outs were based on the karma options you pulled.  If you roll a HG with a ESG of slipknife, then WHEN YOUR CHARACTER DIES HG and Slipknife should get a 90 day lockout.  Nothing else.  I think a lot of others would happier with this too.  And as a random shot in the dark since I don't know if its true or not but just to be thorough:  this needs to apply to staff accounts for their pcs too.

[/hateorade]

I'll finish with a no filter positive side.

The direction things are moving is quite good.  The changes over the last few years and the more open and proactive stances of staff is a great thing.  Arm is a better game now then it was 10 years ago where it felt like a near dumpster fire at times, 5 years ago, or even a year ago.  But the train needs to keep rolling.  It is not done and the reins need to loosen more.

[Brytta Léofa]

The state of Classes and their specifically aenemic varieties that DEMAND a sub guild to be played, and feel limp without a ESC do not share a holistic design with the mage sub guilds.

This confused me for a sec because the new classes I've played were super functional, but I think you're referring to stuff like
  (1) craft-heavy classes (need a subguild to custom craft) and
  (2) enforcer backstab (want a subguild to avoid a big grind).

[Kryos]

The state of Classes and their specifically aenemic varieties that DEMAND a sub guild to be played, and feel limp without a ESC do not share a holistic design with the mage sub guilds.

This confused me for a sec because the new classes I've played were super functional, but I think you're referring to stuff like
  (1) craft-heavy classes (need a subguild to custom craft) and
  (2) enforcer backstab (want a subguild to avoid a big grind).

To be clearer:  I do not think all of the new classes are anemic.  But I do think a majority of them are.  There's a lot of depth in this, and I don't want to clog this thread with stuff its not about.

Editing in more clarity:  the point of the statement was that the new Classes are garbage without a sub guild and that was seemingly part of their design intention.  The mage ESC are not subguilds that match with this need except a few by I think happenstance rather than choice.

[Synthesis]

I think the 2nd and 3rd tier classes paired with a magick subguild are entirely playable.  Even then, the only thing that's really gimpy about 3rd tier (haven't played a 2nd tier class yet) is that their defense sucks.  Miscreant/'gicker is like...too much fun to even be legal.  It should be special-app only.

If you pick a 1st tier class and a magick subguild, your character is basically a killing machine.  If you can't parlay that into having fun...I mean...maybe you just don't like wrecking ass that much?

[Erythil]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

Not sure what is stopping you?  Unless you want actual stuff that does that instead of just uninformed superstition.  Like modern day witch doctors in Africa giving fighters talismans that they believe will stop bullets, you don't need to act rationally or with physics (code) to back you up.

I meant actual stuff that actually does this, yes.  People can and do play witch hunters to varying degrees of success as-is, but AFAIK there's nothing that normal PCs can reasonably hope to get to assist them in this capacity other than poisons.  If the items were sufficiently rare and risky to harvest, just getting them could provide RP opportunities.

One thing that I wish I could have had from a QOL perspective as a mage is some transparency about which of my spells branch.  I understand that there is some secrecy about what you get on purpose, but knowing which spells I should continue training is something of an issue.  It feels weird to just keep on casting the same spell forever, wondering uncertainly whether or not you're anywhere near master level on it.  Crafters and fighters get this information, but mages do not know what skill level they are at, only their power level.

[Brytta Léofa]

One thing that I wish I could have had from a QOL perspective as a mage is some transparency about which of my spells branch.  I understand that there is some secrecy about what you get on purpose, but knowing which spells I should continue training is something of an issue.  It feels weird to just keep on casting the same spell forever, wondering uncertainly whether or not you're anywhere near master level on it.  Crafters and fighters get this information, but mages do not know what skill level they are at, only their power level.

That especially gets tedious with spells that only make sense to train at nil.

[Erythil]

One thing that I wish I could have had from a QOL perspective as a mage is some transparency about which of my spells branch.  I understand that there is some secrecy about what you get on purpose, but knowing which spells I should continue training is something of an issue.  It feels weird to just keep on casting the same spell forever, wondering uncertainly whether or not you're anywhere near master level on it.  Crafters and fighters get this information, but mages do not know what skill level they are at, only their power level.

That especially gets tedious with spells that only make sense to train at nil.

Since there's a problem with score screen real estate, you could maybe tie it into the symbol command.

A little extra message like: "You sense you have a journeyman level of expertise in this technique."

[LindseyBalboa]

... I don't think that's how the magic system works currently, one spell just randomly branching into another. In my singular experience and without going into much detail, if you just keep using your spells like you would IC, your overall power level will increase en masse eventually, so concentrating on grinding up one spell is pointless.

Also I don't see how, like, a an enforcer/viv healer that could never be poisoned and could heal themselves in a fight, isn't insanely scary as a concept. Or a miscreant/Ruk that could sneak in and then blast you into oblivion. I don't have any experience with full magic guilds, but if you take a step back and stop comparing the new sub guilds to the old guilds, they're incredibly efficient and sufficiently terrifying - except to players who lament not having all the spells possible at once and consider the new sub guilds to be sub-par.

But at that point, even if you OOCly are completely unimpressed and think the new magicker classes are lame as fuck, you're still just IC fodder when a vaguely competent magic sub guild  pops in and takes you out without breaking a sweat.

[lostinspace]

I will probably always miss old mage guilds, and especially lament the ones I never got to try in their full potential.

The sub-guilds are okay, but in my experience they are often missing out on spell interactions that were really what made the classes so cool.

Why have the "aim" spell if you don't have the shoot spell.
Is shoot really that helpful when it has a 50% chance of just killing yourself instead of the target if you don't aim first?

[Inks]

I really didn't like the old mage guilds, I especially hated my nilazi for its inability to really kill NPCs without using the (something) spell. I can do all this cool stuff with bodies but can't get enough. I really enjoy the various subs now. Also full witches op. Especially whirans.