Current state of elementalists

[gotdamnmiracle]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

I was speaking in reference to the sorcerer king, the current pinnacle of magickal power within the game. I figure even at a sorcerer's most powerful they never were (and will never be) even a fraction as powerful as any dragon. You can edge closer and closer to something without ever being anywhere near it.

But it's hardly a hill I want to die on. It's saddening to know that I missed out on something as versatile before, but I doubt they suffered very much from the schism of the magickal paths. I'm confident this was actually a good choice from a balance perspective, though traditionally the three karma classes have been a Balance-out-the-window sort of thing.

[kahuna]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

I really appreciate this post from a balance perspective. It's good to know that I have a fighting chance whether I've got a raider or a fighter.. to at least kill even the most powerful of races/classes. If you put in the time and effort you won't completely destroyed just because someone has more karma than you.

[Synthesis]

Living gods aren't really supportable from a staff perspective.  And not so fun for the rest of the playerbase either.

Current sorcs are designed to be OMG powerful, but not so much so that the only opposition that has a chance against them are staff animated levels of (mostly) templar power.

I really appreciate this post from a balance perspective. It's good to know that I have a fighting chance whether I've got a raider or a fighter.. to at least kill even the most powerful of races/classes. If you put in the time and effort you won't completely destroyed just because someone has more karma than you.

Lol, listen man...one-on-one, you have no chance against any non-noob sorc.  Zero chance.

Even as a near-maxed warrior/elementalist, a sorc will completely wreck your ass.  There is an enormous gulf between "god-tier" and "I have a fighting chance."  Sorcs live in that space.  You do not have a fighting chance, but they aren't god-tier.  There is no balance, in the one-on-one sense.  The balance is in terms of...okay, a group of PCs might be able to take this PC out without staff intervention.

If a sorc runs across you solo in the wastes, you beg for your life and give them whatever they want, unless you're ready to roll up a new PC.

[Dar]

I played a merchant/sorc. Specifically picking a main guild that is "not" powerful in terms of combat. And I 'still' was crazy stupid silly powerful in so many avenues. I'll be honest, I'm glad that full sorcs are gone.

I 'would' be open to a way for a fledgeling sorc to become a full sorc at the price of losing their main guild affinity and spending a few rl years on the way towards it. I 'would' be open for sorcs and magickers to have  vaguely described methods of occasionally attaining new spells.

[Bebop]

I personally like where the magicker classes have gone.  Insta-dying across the fucking planet because someone had a Whiran for a few weeks sucked.

[Veselka]

I think Brokrr points out the real reason Full Sorcerers were split up into different fields of focus. If/When they got to endgame with their complete max'd out spell list, there was really nothing outside of Staff Intervention that could counteract them. I think it's rather silly that you either depend on hubris/code mistakes for a Sorcerer of that level to get killed themselves (thinking they have a certain spell active but they don't, so they fall to their death, or accidentally wander into the Sea of Silt), or having max'd out NPCs combatting them in order to level the playing field.

As Synthesis pointed out, even sub-guild Sorcs are stupid powerful, but they can still be killed/dealt with either by Templars or a gaggle of fuckwads. I prefer things to be in the hands of PCs instead of NPCs where that is concerned.

[Veselka]

I personally like where the magicker classes have gone.  Insta-dying across the fucking planet because someone had a Whiran for a few weeks sucked.

I agree, this sucked. It also sucked how willing people were to deal with Whirans of this level because it meant 'insta death / plot closure' with little to no consequence or tie-back. I much rather prefer having to hire an assassin, they potentially failing, or succeeding. It's also kind of why I dislike Drovians -- Instant Secret Broker, no real consequence to the actions. I like fallibility built into the system, even if it's miniscule.

[Eyeball]

If the spell was removed from spell lists, it didn't have to be. It could have been changed to only work if the target purposely wasn't resisting magicks.

[Erythil]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

[X-D]

I will admit...I do not like the new main classes...they are soulless IMO. As to the mage subs....I almost like them. They still need work. I think the last balance into which spells they get is a good one. Now the spells themselves need to be balanced on costs and power etc. As it sits, most of the classes are in the "Oooh...this is a cool spell...Oh wait...it is basically useless for this reason or that." It is pretty amazing how anemic most the spells in arm are, specially when you do not have the full mage class backing it. The old mage classes and spells worked because they were made for each other.  This is no longer the case.

And so...the new mage subs are VERY anemic and barely viable, not in the least bit scary and definitally not worth the karma costs. Many mundane combos are way scarier and more powerful, some of them cost no karma at all.

That all being said, There is potential....should the spells of each sub be tweaked to that sub. Some spells should be changed completely as to what they do.

[kahuna]

I will admit...I do not like the new main classes...they are soulless IMO. As to the mage subs....I almost like them. They still need work. I think the last balance into which spells they get is a good one. Now the spells themselves need to be balanced on costs and power etc. As it sits, most of the classes are in the "Oooh...this is a cool spell...Oh wait...it is basically useless for this reason or that." It is pretty amazing how anemic most the spells in arm are, specially when you do not have the full mage class backing it. The old mage classes and spells worked because they were made for each other.  This is no longer the case.

And so...the new mage subs are VERY anemic and barely viable, not in the least bit scary and definitally not worth the karma costs. Many mundane combos are way scarier and more powerful, some of them cost no karma at all.

That all being said, There is potential....should the spells of each sub be tweaked to that sub. Some spells should be changed completely as to what they do.

Completely disagree. I think the new classes are way better balanced than the old ones. There is a lot more variety and objectively you have way more options to really narrow down what you might want/need from each class.

Magick is still very powerful, considering you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal. Otherwise there are still very powerful spells that are game changing. Power is subjective, there are too many scenarios to determine what is or isn't powerful, it just all depends on the scenario.

[number13]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

If it's just items, every twinked out hunter will own five of each within six RL months.

I'd rather see a high karma witch-hunter sub-class, capable of dispelling enchantments, with dwarfy levels of magic resistance, maybe able to deal with inivisble flying opponents somehow. They could be something that comes out of Tuluk, with RP (and maybe coded) restrictions on dealing with elementalists and sorcs, so that can't just crew up with rogue elementalists.

The way I view things in the game right now, rogue elementalists are essentially the default protagonists of the game, working against the evil templars of Allanak. (That's not far off from the Dark Sun source material.) It could be fun if the Tuluki templars also trained up some opposition for the protagonists, and add a little diversity to the game.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Witch hunters do sound cool.

[Brokkr]

Another way of dealing with these kinds of powers would be creating or distributing objects that counteract them.  Like an anti-summoning talisman, or a shadow-banishing dust, or something, idk.  It might be neat to gear up somebody with a bunch of special anti-witch kit to hunt one down.

Not sure what is stopping you?  Unless you want actual stuff that does that instead of just uninformed superstition.  Like modern day witch doctors in Africa giving fighters talismans that they believe will stop bullets, you don't need to act rationally or with physics (code) to back you up.

[X-D]

Completely disagree. I think the new classes are way better balanced than the old ones. There is a lot more variety and objectively you have way more options to really narrow down what you might want/need from each class.

Magick is still very powerful, considering you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal. Otherwise there are still very powerful spells that are game changing. Power is subjective, there are too many scenarios to determine what is or isn't powerful, it just all depends on the scenario.

Well, I do not want to get into old verses new classes here...But we disagree greatly on what balance and variety mean.

And you are not understanding what I said on magick either. First off, I never said "Magick" Was not powerful...it is, after all, magick. I said the subs are not. You are wrong as to using a magick sub (aside from sorc) To become an unstoppable killing machine...ESPECIALLY with a heavy combat main class.  And if that is what you want, you would be FAR FAR FAR better served to take an extended sub since the heavy combat classes lack anything but heavy combat.

Spells very powerful/game changing Meh...of course, so is throw, archery, poison, disarm etc etc etc etc etc. But again, I never said "spells" other then in the context of the subclass. In that context, the spells, which are meant to have an entire tree of spells to back them up, no longer do...making them and the subclasses they belong to very anemic. ESPECIALLY since fully half of the spells in arm are really only there to give you something in between an OK spell and the spell you really want/need This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful. Then there are spells that really are powerful...but because you do not have the other spells to back it up, or mana cost or what have you...really are not. Again, because they were created with a complete mage class in mind.

I stand by my statement. Currently the mage subs are anemic and barely viable at best. Not at all worth the high Karma cost ESPECIALLY when you add in the docs and game world payments you make.

Also, keep in mind, aside from one or two spells in each class that make no sense...I think the current spell trees are good....the problem is more the spells themselves.

Soon I will be putting in a request on my thoughts on the subject...since most of it cannot be talked about here.

[kahuna]

Completely disagree. I think the new classes are way better balanced than the old ones. There is a lot more variety and objectively you have way more options to really narrow down what you might want/need from each class.

Magick is still very powerful, considering you can pick a heavy combat and get magick on top of it, you can become an unstoppable killing machine with the right combinations if that is your goal. Otherwise there are still very powerful spells that are game changing. Power is subjective, there are too many scenarios to determine what is or isn't powerful, it just all depends on the scenario.

Well, I do not want to get into old verses new classes here...But we disagree greatly on what balance and variety mean.

And you are not understanding what I said on magick either. First off, I never said "Magick" Was not powerful...it is, after all, magick. I said the subs are not. You are wrong as to using a magick sub (aside from sorc) To become an unstoppable killing machine...ESPECIALLY with a heavy combat main class.  And if that is what you want, you would be FAR FAR FAR better served to take an extended sub since the heavy combat classes lack anything but heavy combat.

Spells very powerful/game changing Meh...of course, so is throw, archery, poison, disarm etc etc etc etc etc. But again, I never said "spells" other then in the context of the subclass. In that context, the spells, which are meant to have an entire tree of spells to back them up, no longer do...making them and the subclasses they belong to very anemic. ESPECIALLY since fully half of the spells in arm are really only there to give you something in between an OK spell and the spell you really want/need This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful. Then there are spells that really are powerful...but because you do not have the other spells to back it up, or mana cost or what have you...really are not. Again, because they were created with a complete mage class in mind.

I stand by my statement. Currently the mage subs are anemic and barely viable at best. Not at all worth the high Karma cost ESPECIALLY when you add in the docs and game world payments you make.

Also, keep in mind, aside from one or two spells in each class that make no sense...I think the current spell trees are good....the problem is more the spells themselves.

I can think of many many combinations of heavy combat mixed with a magicker subclass that is far superior to any extended subclass out there. I fail to see how lacking spells means anything when you're able to do things with the spells you do get that no other PC can do or compete with? If you put any magicker subclass/heavy against another heavy/extended subclass there is no way they are winning that fight unless there is a fluke or a strawman scenario like my PC crit fails at the worst possible moment to die which happens 1% of the time. 9/10 times the magicker subclass would win, so I fail to see your point at all.

[Brokkr]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

[X-D]

Because you are wrong.

Sadly I cannot say much more. Maybe if both PCs were in a locked room and the one with the magick sub was the only one with time to prepare.

But then, in a locked room where one PC is prepared the end is normally the same no matter the class or sub.

[X-D]

Brokkr. All main guild mages had more then 22 spells...One of them had over 30.

Unless you are counting the ones made to weaken magick/mages Elkros, drov and nilaz. But I never count them. And even if I did, they all had far fewer "fluff" Spells so the ratio was the same.

[Brokkr]

Incorrect.

But we can talk about that in the request.

[Riev]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

[Lizzie]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

Brokkr is right. None of the main-guild main lists had 30 spells. The lowest were at 19, and most were under 24 each.

My issue is with the combination of spells, though people posting here are insisting that's been adjusted to be more functional than it was when the subclasses were rolled out.

For me though - if I can't "a" and "b" in the same subclass, I'll just not play that subclass, and mourn the loss of that ability to do those two things with the same character.

[Krath]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

Brokkr is right. None of the main-guild main lists had 30 spells. The lowest were at 19, and most were under 24 each.

My issue is with the combination of spells, though people posting here are insisting that's been adjusted to be more functional than it was when the subclasses were rolled out.

For me though - if I can't "a" and "b" in the same subclass, I'll just not play that subclass, and mourn the loss of that ability to do those two things with the same character.

What's frustrating is we have to use our karma and wait for regeneration on subclasses that may or may not have the spells we need for our build.

Hey, I want to be a fighter that can fly and be invisible..What subguild do I pick? Hopefully it's the right one or im fucked for 2-3 months

I want to be a dune trader that can have empower? Which krathi do I pick? Hopefully it is right one or I'm fucked for 2-3 months.

At least with the main guild magicks we knew what spells we were getting. The karma regeneration makes me want to wait until someone post what subguilds get what spells simply because of regeneration. Staff should either put the spells in the help files or you should be able to send in a request and say does subguild x get y spell and get a yes or no response.

And to clarify, YES, the 99% of players picks main guilds and subguilds because of spells and skills.

[titansfan]

This was alright when you had a tree of 25-30 spells. But you no longer do...which makes it much more painful.

Soooo, it was never alright for most main guild magickers?

Look forward to seeing your unabridged thoughts.

Ladies and gentlemen... one of the leaders/co-owners of this game.

Brokkr is right. None of the main-guild main lists had 30 spells. The lowest were at 19, and most were under 24 each.

My issue is with the combination of spells, though people posting here are insisting that's been adjusted to be more functional than it was when the subclasses were rolled out.

For me though - if I can't "a" and "b" in the same subclass, I'll just not play that subclass, and mourn the loss of that ability to do those two things with the same character.

What's frustrating is we have to use our karma and wait for regeneration on subclasses that may or may not have the spells we need for our build.

Hey, I want to be a fighter that can fly and be invisible..What subguild do I pick? Hopefully it's the right one or im fucked for 2-3 months

I want to be a dune trader that can have empower? Which krathi do I pick? Hopefully it is right one or I'm fucked for 2-3 months.

At least with the main guild magicks we knew what spells we were getting. The karma regeneration makes me want to wait until someone post what subguilds get what spells simply because of regeneration. Staff should either put the spells in the help files or you should be able to send in a request and say does subguild x get y spell and get a yes or no response.

And to clarify, YES, the 99% of players picks main guilds and subguilds because of spells and skills.

+1

[Delirium]

If you have a concept that relies on a specific combination of spells or skills, for whatever reason, you could always open a request with staff and ask for assistance in picking a guild and subguild that fits.