Stalker and Archery.

[th3kaiser]

It is crazy deadly. But let's ignore the fact that you think you can't hit master. Which you can, it's just crazy difficult. The balance for these isn't about what levels you personally have hit after your 10 days played or whatever. It's the skill potential you can reach. A master weapon skill PC with master backstab/disarm/sap/bash/throw/threaten with a smattering of advanced skills is super deadly. Toss in the huge variety of subs/extended subs and mage subs...you really don't need more combat skills.

Like I said previous, a bit more utility? Sure. Moar combat? Please no.

[gotdamnmiracle]

You're right. I'm sure the amount of people able to hit master through normal means is a reasonable number. Something like the amount of people who were able to create an MMH. Remember when staff said that was difficult but entirely doable?

I'm also not arguing for more combat skills nor master archery, btw. I'm just stating that you may as well treat master weapons skills like riding on an elf character.

[th3kaiser]

I understand your view. I think we even have a whole thread about it that's ongoing. I simply disagree. Glad we don't disagree on enforcers though! 

[Veselka]

I honestly like Enforcer quite a bit, even though their stealth skills are a bit limited. If anything I would give them disarm -> bash rather than bash -> disarm, because Bash is so incredibly silly and long to train. And they already have plenty of that with Sap/Backstab coming off weapon skills. Maybe listen to Jman or something.

Otherwise, I think they're cool.

[Dresan]

In terms of seer utility you can pretty much compare infiltrators and scouts. Trade backstab for archery which is a pretty damn good, and you still have blowgun and crossbow for follow ups.  Depending on your subguild you almost have as much leathaility and utility in cities(rogue,thief, cutpurse,slipknife) while being great outdoors.

Its a steep trade off for sap for enforcers and if you aren't going for that you might as well have played raider.

I could see enforcer getting bandage and infiltrator getting lower level of it. Not sure if anything else fits.

[Brokkr]

bash->disarm (and kick->disarm for raiders) were done specifically to give Fighters a sort of curve based advantage.  At lower levels of skill, it gives Fighters a significant advantage in melee.  A long lived Enforcer/Raider, however, as the potential to make that disadvantage disappear.

It is relevant to this discussion, I think, that not all the classes were meant to be along the same time frame.  Some (especailly Enforcer) were designed for folks that like a longer development cycle.

[Riev]

It is relevant to this discussion, I think, that not all the classes were meant to be along the same time frame.  Some (especailly Enforcer) were designed for folks that like a longer development cycle.

I think this is important enough to say again, and again, because through all these changes, it wasn't really explained like this. This makes perfect sense, to me.

Some Guilds are designed to be from 0-10days played and have the advantage during that time, but "heavy" classes will definitely outscale them in the long term.

So you're picking a Guild not just for what skills you want, but how long you INTEND on them being around. Pick a Light Combat class if you don't expect to live 30days played but you want to be able to engage in combat and be part of the fun.

Is that right?

[Dresan]

I don't find any issue with branching disarm from another combat skill. They do take long but are possible.

With the combat changes backstab might not just take long but be  impossible to  branch.

If backstab and sap branched from disarm for enforcer that would make the skill take long without it feeling potentially impossible without the right subguild.

However this was intended I guess so.. 

I still think they need another utility skill espeically as they ae currently.

[Jihelu]

I played an assassin/Outlaw during the class changes, so combat was already changed.

I mastered backstab.

It isn't that hard TBH, not even the snarky 'HEHEH I MASTERED PIERCING WEAPONS' bullshit, (I played that fuck for like 15 days and only had apprentice but my dual wield was advanced so thanks code), but whenever I knew I had a chance to get a fail I took it.

[Dresan]

Jihelu, sorry not quite sure what you mean? Combat changes dont effect dual wielding or backstab . They affect weapon skills which is required to branch sap/backstab on enforcer.

[mansa]

Jihelu, sorry not quite sure what you mean? Combat changes dont effect dual wielding or backstab . They affect weapon skills which is required to branch sap/backstab on enforcer.

It should be noted that skills can be set to branch off at any point in the source skills prowess, and is not limited to being advanced or master.

[Dresan]

Jihelu, sorry not quite sure what you mean? Combat changes dont effect dual wielding or backstab . They affect weapon skills which is required to branch sap/backstab on enforcer.

It should be noted that skills can be set to branch off at any point in the source skills prowess, and is not limited to being advanced or master.

Yup. Though this does not currently help enforcers very much at the moment as per previous staff posts. Long development is not the problem, but the feeling of no chance unless the stars align is perhaps a tad much.

[th3kaiser]

Hopefully that's a branch at jman. Advanced can be a bit of a pain to get up to fairly quickly. I don't think I've gotten advanced weapons before 15 days played in recent times.

[Dresan]

According to staff, just under what warriors branched advanced weapon skills at which with the boost in weapon skills its around low-mid advanced perhaps. There is another thread on weapon skills on general.

[Jihelu]

According to staff, just under what warriors branched advanced weapon skills at which with the boost in weapon skills its around low-mid advanced perhaps. There is another thread on weapon skills on general.

My bad, you said "Make mastering backstab impossible" So I thought you meant the like, goal of mastering backstab.

Not the goal of mastering a weapon skill, THEN backstab.

That shit would be fucking silly.

[Dresan]

No I meant branching it. Anyways my point is wish enforcers had a couple more utility skills. Considering the other heavy combat classes get listen and scan, they could at least advanced watch.

Or I was thinking poison maybe branched from blowgun which would make backstab-sap completely justified for potentially never branching. 

[Cind]

I'm sorry, maybe I play the wrong sort of characters, but what kind of utilization does advanced and master watch have for a heavy fighting class?

The few times I've tended to use it, it hasn't really told me anything I really needed to know.

The one time I remember it being useful was discovering who the person was that had attempted to throw a ball of dung at someone in the Gaj from outside the tavern.

[Vex]

I'm sorry, maybe I play the wrong sort of characters, but what kind of utilization does advanced and master watch have for a heavy fighting class?

Let's you mind stance changes, is used vs people you're watching trying to hide right in front of you, or noticing trying to backstab/sap/pp you or the person you are guarding, or stealthy activities generally.

Watch is, imo, a cornerstone component, to protecting other pcs. Whilst most think BIG DAMAGE, or the size of their penis, when discussing heavy combat pcs, their real, best utility lies in how effective they can be, at protecting other, softer targets, and controlling the flow of combat, or seizing the initiative before combat even begins.

Listen, watch and scan, should all have a prominent place, in a guardians toolbox. Guard and rescue alone, make you purely reactionary. Watch, listen and scan, give you more opportunities to be proactive, with skills like THREATEN.

Watch the elf who failed to sneak in, master watch + listen + advanced scan beat his hide, and now you can SUBDUE him, or even better THREATEN him, so he has to show himself... as all other actions, cause you to kick his ass, into the stratosphere.

Not everything warrior, has to be about BIG CRITS and MAXIMUM KILL, you know. Tactics and cunning, are just as important, if not more so, than how hard you swing your 2h bitchmaker.