Stalker and Archery.

[Eyeball]

Why would someone want to be a master at, say, slashing weapons?

You've all been focusing on NPCs. What about PC vs PC?

A recent character more or less became part of two separate tournaments by simply being there. He would have liked to have won the higher prizes. He would have liked to have had the acclaim and recognition that comes with winning.

Sometimes the arena is opened to volunteers, or a leader requires followers to join in a performance there. Very public, all of Allanak watching. Again, he would have liked to have had the acclaim and recognition. And deterrence to those who might try to murder him.

Or just plain kicking the ass of would-be assassins, blocking arrows, blocking throwing weapons, twisting aside of daggers in the back, driving off raiders who thought they could do you in out in the wastelands.

What about Staff vs PC? Sometimes PCs end up in the shit, with a horde of gith attacking, for example. High skills means your PC might survive where others don't.

There are plenty of examples of why one's PC might reasonably want this.

[Jihelu]

There are tons of stories in East Asian, I think mostly China?, folk lore/history of generals doing absolutely bat shit feats of physical strength. I think most are like, cleaving an army in one swing but some are more realistic, like killing 100 men at a time.

I don't see why a PC couldn't have some stupid goal like this of becoming a master swordsmen.
Obviously if they attempt the 100 men at a time thing before being hella ready they are fucking dead.

[Brokkr]

Not understanding how PC vs PC changes anything.  Aren't other PCs under (codewise) the same constraints as you?  If there are IC constraints that cause your ability to differ....well that is the way the cookie crumbles.

[Namino]

I swore I was done but here I am again.

The issue isn't that it's hard to get to master skills in Armageddon. I don't know why this issue is being conflated the real problem.

Brokkr, it is not difficult to master skills in Armageddon. It may be a tedious and uninspiring process, but if you know what you're doing you'll get there 100% of the time, every single time, barring death from unrelated activities interrupting the climb. The defining factor between someone mastering and someone remaining mediocre forever is meta knowledge and the willingness to use it, and that's my fundamental issue with the whole system. You're arguing from a position that seems to assume my arguments are rooted in complaints that it is too difficult to achieve mastery. My argument is quite the opposite. It's too easy, as well as based on unrealistic, uninspired mechanics. So instead of defending them, let's propose some alternate solutions to demonstrate that we're being constructive.

Imagine a world where instead of seeking out dodges, skill gain was tied to how many hits you landed on an opponent before the fight was over. (Edit again: Let me be clear. You have to land your hits on ONE opponent. They don't stack between fights.) Maybe this would be three or four hits when you're a novice, but by the time you hit advanced, the requirement is that you score (not attempt, but land) 15-20 hits on a single enemy before you tick up a skill level. Suddenly, turaal are useless. The only valid targets in the world for training are incredibly defensive sparring partners who parry/block you effectively (because unskilled training partners will run out of HP rapidly), or tanky megafauna like mekillot and bahamet who can soak up enough hits before biting it.

Here's the thing about mekillot that makes them different from turaal. They can kill people who are fighting them with low-advanced combat skills. Pretty effectively. Let's be insanely generous and say there's a 5% chance of being killed by a mek every time you attack one. Since it takes hundreds of skill ups to go from advanced to master, and you only have to get killed once to stop your rise, that compounds itself, making it an infinitesimally small chance that you survive to master. You can mitigate danger by playing things smart and not taking unnecessary risks, but there will always be risk. Edit: Because math is fun, the actual chance of dying in your first 100 contests with Mekillots with a 5% lethality rate per exchange is 99.4%.

In this world, everyone, even yourself, gets what they want. Achievers like me get to have a dangerous, reckless pursuit that makes our balls feel big, and demonstrates that we fought long, long, long odds and triumphed. And you get what you want, because you actually achieve your stated goal -- limiting people from being able to achieve 'game breaking' levels of strength. In this hypothetical world, people are limited from achieving it not because the path to power is hidden, but because the path to power is so steep, so treacherous, that 99.5% of them die during the ascent. This is infinitely better for your purposes than the current system, in which achieving mastery is obscure for many players, but an effortless pursuit for metagaming assholes like myself who can achieve it unfailingly with enough time.

[Brytta Léofa]

I may be way behind the curve here, but I thought the situation being described was this:

Previously (a few years ago) in Armageddon, prior to the changes in how combat skills are raised, the doge economy ruled:
* The best way to git gud was by fighting creatures who (a) dodge your hits and (b) can hit you.
* Sparring in a clan will only get you to mid-tolerable levels of skill.
* The complaint: clanned characters don't git gut, isolated play and weird/dangerous behavior rewarded.

Today, after the changes to how combat skills are raised:
* The best way to git gut is by fighting people/creatures with higher offense and defense than you; i.e. sparring in a clan. Better by far if you have a combat expert to train with, but two equally-matched fighters will also consistently gain skill at a slower pace.
* Fighting creatures you'd reasonably be willing to fight will only get you to mid-tolerable levels of skill.
* The complaint: clanned characters are now okay; isolated characters can't git gud without even weirder, more dangerous behavior than before.

Is that roughly accurate?

[Namino]

I may be way behind the curve here, but I thought the situation being described was this:

Previously (a few years ago) in Armageddon, prior to the changes in how combat skills are raised, the doge economy ruled:
* The best way to git gud was by fighting creatures who (a) dodge your hits and (b) can hit you.
* Sparring in a clan will only get you to mid-tolerable levels of skill.
* The complaint: clanned characters don't git gut, isolated play and weird/dangerous behavior rewarded.

Today, after the changes to how combat skills are raised:
* The best way to git gut is by fighting people/creatures with higher offense and defense than you; i.e. sparring in a clan. Better by far if you have a combat expert to train with, but two equally-matched fighters will also consistently gain skill at a slower pace.
* Fighting creatures you'd reasonably be willing to fight will only get you to mid-tolerable levels of skill.
* The complaint: clanned characters are now okay; isolated characters can't git gud without even weirder, more dangerous behavior than before.

Is that roughly accurate?

The best way to skill up is still to fight creatures that dodge you. As recently as August I was mastering skills fighting canyon rats. Sparring is better if you have a partner who is willing to metagame with you, but even in a clan you're in a rough spot if you don't have access to someone who is A) good enough and B) willing to etwo for your ep and trade off. Having enjoyed being in a sparring clan with another metagaming asshole on the character before last, I'd argue the two are pretty interchangeable, with my preference for wildlife because at least then you're not subjecting all the recruits in you clan to having to watch you and your bro have a 45 RL minute spar. 

[Feco]

I would like to add that I had mastered several skills on the PC in question.  It just took time.  The advancement was slower, but I think that makes perfect sense.

The time factor, I'm okay with. Honestly. I've had PCs at 50days played that were still learning stuff and I'm a bit of a code-focused person.

The point is that non-combat classes can reach (master) in their respective and specialized skills "easily" when compared to combat classes. Rightly so in a PvP game, and in a world where PCs and NPCs are on the same coded skill sheets. Again, I GET IT. I'm just saying... reduce the cap for weapon skills then, and make it so that advancement has more to do with time, roleplay, and IC consequences and less me trying to find the turaal that spawned with max agility and "fail my bash" every time.

I think I'm doing a piss poor job saying what I mean.  Lemme reword:

I managed to get mastered combat skill(s) with just a time commitment.  It happened pretty naturally by training with other PCs, and just fighting when fighting came about.  No need to do anything super funky or gamey.  At all.  I suspect the problem people have is that the time commitment is too long?

The time commitment to "max out" a PC is absurd, yes.  But the PC I'm talking about was scary before mastering any skill.  A fighting PC gets competent pretty quickly.  It's the absolutely frightening, once-in-a-lifetime skill-level PCs that take the silly amounts of time, and I see no problem with that.

I'd be very much against lowering the cap and instituting rules for staff to give bumps after roleplay.   Staff don't need the extra workload, and those higher skills levels can be attained normally over the course of play.

[Krath]

So...We all agree, Stalkers SHOULD, get master archery.

[Vex]

So...We all agree, Stalkers SHOULD, get master archery.

No.

[Inks]

So...We all agree, Stalkers SHOULD, get master archery.

No.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nah. Mostly, pretty much alright with the way skills have been shunted around, and how you have access to combos you never had before. So while we lost a few things, I think we gained some freedom in creating a character tuned to us.

[Dresan]

I have no issues with the weapon skills soft caps. Though in the past certain classes did not raise O/D that quickly wonder if that has changed, or if they will have an easier time with weapon skills since offense will be slower to rise.

Enforcer makes me a bit sad though. The grind is very difficult and the pay off not that great IMO even if you do. That said, getting sap isn't that hard with sub-guilds. Backstab is great but you lack many of the supporting skills, and would need to sacrifice more utility if you choose slipknife to skip the grind. It just feels like if you need to factor in extended-subguilds there are much more interesting options.

[Nile]

It appears I have one of the last rangers left alive. Buahahahahaha

[Cabooze]

It appears I have one of the last rangers left alive. Buahahahahaha

Covet it and regard it as a treasure. There will never be such a thing ever again. You will cry when you lose it and need to conform to the new way of things. Never again will you see the days of having both master sneak/hide and master scan/listen.

[Nile]

It appears I have one of the last rangers left alive. Buahahahahaha

Covet it and regard it as a treasure. There will never be such a thing ever again. You will cry when you lose it and need to conform to the new way of things. Never again will you see the days of having both master sneak/hide and master scan/listen.

That is a fucking travesty. I was almost going to retire and start fresh because I'm several years out of practice....since my 30 day+ Red Fang was forced to retire/die by staff, but now I better try and survive. Thanks for the inspiration

[Nile]

I take it back. Game seems lame af now. See ya.

[Veselka]

Bye.

[Cerelum]

I take it back. Game seems lame af now. See ya.

What makes you say that?

[Vex]

I take it back. Game seems lame af now. See ya.

I wouldn't let the naysayers turn you off. The new classes, at least those I've indulged in, are well-balanced and enjoyable. There is a number of vets, who seem to find fault in every little thing, but I attribute this to old man syndrome. That is, old people always think it used to be better and a change to the unfamiliar, is a crime against their person.

Stalker and miscreant are the two I've maxed out, and I found them to be extremely enjoyable. They'll afford you a broad range of options, and their combat prowess is more substantial in practice, than on paper. They just "work" really, really well. I've never been in a situation there, where I felt disappointed in my choice of class. Worth a try, imo.

Enforcer and infiltrator are the two that aren't... I won't say they're bad, exactly. Enforcer has odd branching, and is rather anemic compared to its raider counterpart, and infiltrator needs more oomph to validate it's stealth levels. The extra weapon skills are wasted, because if you're going infiltrator, you're going for backstab and that places you firmly, into the piercing camp. Give them a riposte for piercing weapons, or something... backstab is nice, but it isn't THAT nice.

If you're coming off a legacy guild, I wouldn't suggest either of those, but the rest should do you fine.

[John]

I miss rangers, and think it is really sucky not to give Stalkers, master archery. Any support?

No. Old rangers were a bit too good. I think Stalker is a much more solid and alternative and every bit as playable as the ranger.

[Dresan]

It does feel like enforcer needs just a little something. And that little something needs to trickle down to infiltrator.

However not really sure what that skill should be.

[th3kaiser]

So I haven't played an enforcer, but on paper I'd have to say no to anymore combat stuff. If we're talking a little more utility I could get behind that. But Enforcers seem like they have enough combat skills with kick/bash/sap/backstab/disarm/threaten on top of master weapon skills.

[gotdamnmiracle]

So I haven't played an enforcer, but on paper I'd have to say no to anymore combat stuff. If we're talking a little more utility I could get behind that. But Enforcers seem like they have enough combat skills with kick/bash/sap/backstab/disarm/threaten on top of master weapon skills.

As we've said before, you may as well not count those master weapon skills. They're there as nod to other games with master weapons skills. It's a noob trap to assume you can get to that level. I'd lump backstab and sap in that category as well, honestly.

[Cerelum]

Isn't an advanced archery character still deadly as shit?

Why does everyone need to have master everything?

[Dresan]

Just a utility skill like bandage perhaps.

All other classes are good but it feels like Enforcer and infiltrator can be good if(?)...