Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[Miradus]

Yeah, it's a complicated system.

I guess all in all I'd just like to hear from staff that there's a system in place to always TRY to push from within the group first before bringing in the outsider.

[boog]

A lot of time, the characters, not players, in the grunt roles aren't always optimal, so promoting from within doesn't always work.

When I was staff, a player suggested having a contest in Salarr to see who would be promoted. It actually worked really well and I hope it was enjoyable to all involved: those who competed wanted the promotion. Those who didn't chose a side to help win. It was a fun plot to run.

[Dar]

In the end. Coded rank ascension cant be the answer to character development. It either lessens the value of the rank, or puts the character to such a position that without active virtual opposition the character might as well be Tektolnes.

A difference between senior and junior nobles is vast. Since senior nobles hobnob with red robes. How fair is it for a new sponsored in junior noble if the senior noble handicaps new ones to maintain his control.  Same with Red Robe vs blue Robes dynamic. Lt. Vs Sargeants. Etc.

If virtual world was as active as every other player there, it wouldn't be a problem. An Lt. Would have other Lts. To conflict with and the influence challenges of sargeants would be as insignificant to him as would a Troopers vying for first trooper be to a sargeant.  Entertaining, very useful, but ultimately harmless and easily squishible if it gets out of bounds.

But the way the game is. Player Sargeants should 'never' be easily squishible by another player.  Nor should blue robes, or junior nobles.  The only player who should ever be able to achieve the tier of senior noble/red robe/Lt is someone who literally clawed his way through extreme opposition, cowed it, and made it is bitch. One that worships him and follows him regardless of what rank he or she officially is.

Or ... someone who is fated to die whenever some particular objective is complete to restore equalibrium.


So no. Vertical promotion is not a viable system in Armageddon. Lateral promotion though is viable. But ... requires creativity and major changes in society. I guess they are working on introducing and solidifying it with Templars right now. Hopefully more will come.

[Heade]

How fair is it for a new sponsored in junior noble if the senior noble handicaps new ones to maintain his control.  Same with Red Robe vs blue Robes dynamic. Lt. Vs Sargeants. Etc.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, here. There are plenty of other varying power disparities in the game already that are just as you suggest here, with junior nobles/templars vs. commoners, and Sergeants vs. Runners and such. Is it "fair"? Of course not. But Arm has never been about "fair". There are characters in the game who can snap their fingers and erase other characters from existence, just by virtue of their role. Why shouldn't those characters also have someone to answer to, or fidget beneath the yoke of?

As they say, shit rolls downhill.

I think there are some legitimate rationales for not having higher ranks in the game, in some instances. But I don't think this is one of them.

I think Lt's would be fine in the Byn. Red Robes are a bit iffy, only because I feel like the population is small enough that someone playing a Red Robe, who should largely be above all the petty day to day affairs that characters deal with, would likely get bored OOCly and meddle in things that really shouldn't even be a blip on the radar of a Red Robe. Much like Lirathan Templars in Tuluk often got involved in really petty shit that shouldn't draw their attention, simply out of OOC boredom.

I'm not opposed to Red Robe's being in the game. I'd like to have characters have more to strive towards. But were someone to get there, I think that they should have clear, concise instructions on how they're expected to conduct themselves in the role. For instance, not routinely interacting with commoners, and instead directing their efforts through PC templars and nobles, essentially getting other mid-high rank PCs to be their minions and deal with the micro of it all. That wouldn't mean they couldn't walk into the Gaj and drop an edict or something. But it should mean that they won't be routinely meeting with Shady McGuildThug from the Rinth.

A red robe should rarely, if ever, speak directly to anyone of lower social status than a noble/templar aide, in my opinion.(other than their own slaves, of course, but they're not PCs anyhow, unfortunately)

But if a player were to want to push for this role, despite being expected to follow these social protocols, I don't see a problem with letting them.

[Miradus]

Seems like all my posts this morning are causing drama I don't mean. My bad. Let me try to rein it in.

I'd like to see the potential pathway for vertical ascension. Even in a caste system you have people who usurp power, marry up, etc. Last decade's scandal is today's normality.

And from an ooc perspective, if you've already got players in a group ... look there first. An ounce of interest is better than a pound of skill.

[Bogre]

In the end. Coded rank ascension cant be the answer to character development. It either lessens the value of the rank, or puts the character to such a position that without active virtual opposition the character might as well be Tektolnes.

A difference between senior and junior nobles is vast. Since senior nobles hobnob with red robes. How fair is it for a new sponsored in junior noble if the senior noble handicaps new ones to maintain his control.  Same with Red Robe vs blue Robes dynamic. Lt. Vs Sargeants. Etc.

If virtual world was as active as every other player there, it wouldn't be a problem. An Lt. Would have other Lts. To conflict with and the influence challenges of sargeants would be as insignificant to him as would a Troopers vying for first trooper be to a sargeant.  Entertaining, very useful, but ultimately harmless and easily squishible if it gets out of bounds.

But the way the game is. Player Sargeants should 'never' be easily squishible by another player.  Nor should blue robes, or junior nobles.  The only player who should ever be able to achieve the tier of senior noble/red robe/Lt is someone who literally clawed his way through extreme opposition, cowed it, and made it is bitch. One that worships him and follows him regardless of what rank he or she officially is.

Or ... someone who is fated to die whenever some particular objective is complete to restore equalibrium.


So no. Vertical promotion is not a viable system in Armageddon. Lateral promotion though is viable. But ... requires creativity and major changes in society. I guess they are working on introducing and solidifying it with Templars right now. Hopefully more will come.

I'm going to totally disagree with this. Virtual opposition? No - players can have real opposition (or support) from other PCs. Is it unfair that your new junior noble is underneath the heel of someone else's senior noble? Yeah. It is. But otherwise - there's still some virtual PC (or Staff NPC) that is the senior noble. But it's just as unfair to be a city elf thrown in the jails by a templar. There's no need for it to be balanced. The junior noble can either choose to lick their senior's boots, or plot to overthrow them, or both. It's impossible, in the current situation, to plot upward ascension. Why try to supplant someone in your own house that's 1) A staff NPC and 2) even when winning would result in storage? That should change.

And if you don't limit ascension, you have the ability for outside influences to challenge the power of those select high PCs. Yes - Hardnose the Red has a lot of power. But there's a new Oashi Senior who's got control of a lot of money, a lot of gemmed, and is funding all sorts of shady characters. They are now in balance - and yeah, maybe there's a horrific sorceror out there who wouldn't mind turning the pair of them into jozhal steaks.

It should be something very difficult to do, but not impossible.

I mean - does anyone here lose sleep over night that some players in the past got to be a red robe, or a High Templar? 

[Delirium]

Honest question, why is a vocal subset of the pbase so hellbent on achieving rank and power? What will you do with it when you get there? Once you've won, what then? You'll go "raise the glass ceiling higher!" because you'll stagnate at that rank, rather than stagnating a rank below. It isn't really the power you want, whether you think it is or not. It is the challenge of reaching it. I argue that the challenge is still there. You can absolutely strive for power, but when you reach a certain point, well, you've won. Game over.

The journey and the struggle is the fun part.. and if you don't want to hit Red/Senior/Lt whatever and get stored, well, not every successful character has to have grand ambitions. Maybe you like being rank and file because it's less pressure. It doesn't have to be about reaching X fantasy rank, it's all smoke and mirrors anyway, since this is just a game. It's about creating interest and conflict with others, and jostling for position on the playing board is part of it, but why? Why are they jostling for position? What do they hope to achieve? What are their goals in life? That is the question you should ask yourself, and answer through in-character actions, beyond the simple and honestly rather flat response of "more power". Power for what?

I agree that there needs to be tangible goals to strive for and support for that, but really, those largely exist already. You can create them for yourself. Where things occasionally seem to fall through is with players and staff bringing to life and promoting the virtual world, and the reactions they should have to various situations and characters. From time to time, it does feel like a very small sandbox where vocal characters whose players can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to the game rise to prominence no matter how foolishly they behave, but... let's be real, that isn't a new problem, it's an old problem, and it waxes and wanes with everything else.

[Riev]

For me, the journey and struggle means nothing, if the end isn't achievable at all. What fun is it scraping and plotting to become the freshest Lieutenant in the Byn, if you've been told you have no staff support, its not allowed, and the game world will not reflect any of your progress?

Its not just rank and power, those are (to me) just the easiest parallel to draw from. It is very disparaging to have a really cool or interesting idea and be told that the idea "won't be supported" or is "not possible". It is one thing if you're trying to apply to be a member of the X-Men, but if you want to achieve a certain goal (like, lets say, taking over an existing shop from an NPC elf), it is reliant on our Storytellers and Producers to both WANT and be ABLE to help us follow through on it.

In the time it takes to capture, mate, birth, and begin to train FIRE KANKS, there a lot that can go wrong. But if you're told that FIRE KANKS, as a result, is not something that will be supported.... why put your time into it? That doesn't seem like fun for me, and that is why I do not play. I tried it, with Sergeant Rush, to have a goal that staff said was "unlikely to be achievable", and he was still killed for (lets be real honest here) being the longest-lived Byn Sergeant and Templars wanting to make waves. That isn't the 'fun' struggle of doing things. Personally I don't want to be a Lieutenant, but I want other people to be able to try, so I can subvert them or help them as fitting.

[Delirium]

Well. I mean. If you're playing this game to win it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Unless by "winning" you mean "adding interest, depth and complexity to the ongoing narrative", in which case, good job!

You have to accept that this isn't a game where you're playing the hero who wins. You're the supporting cast. Yes, even your popular leader who all the players adore. What more do you need? You're creating fun and intrigue for lots of people right where you are. What are you really going to get if you're promoted another rank, beyond OOC bragging rights?

[Eyeball]

Pursuit of status, power and wealth is in the very core of male nature. Maybe the sexes are the same in Zalanthas, but players are human beings. Yes, women can want those things too, but men are driven to compete for them because, if we're being honest, it makes them more appealing to women. They don't even have to realize it, it's just instinctive.

I'm sure this will raise a howl of outrage, but I'm going to say it because I'm too reckless to keep my mouth shut. This trend toward a game of complex social relationships and collaboration (on the surface) and process over results seems more like a woman thing to me.

[mansa]

Well. I mean. If you're playing this game to win it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Unless by "winning" you mean "adding interest, depth and complexity to the ongoing narrative", in which case, good job!

You have to accept that this isn't a game where you're playing the hero who wins. You're the supporting cast. Yes, even your popular leader who all the players adore. What more do you need? You're creating fun and intrigue for lots of people right where you are. What are you really going to get if you're promoted another rank, beyond OOC bragging rights?

If players are just supporting staff..
And staff are just supporting players..

Nobody does anything.  No change happens.

This was one of the reasons I stopped playing in 2010.

[Dar]

Achievement should most definitely be a reachable goal. But not at the cost of others gameplay


Which is why I advocate there needs to be lateral rewards.

Extra priviliges, extra authority. Extra spells, little honors that can be gained and lost.

Things that add a little awesomeness to your career climbing pc, without making it game breaking.

[Bogre]

Honest question, why is a vocal subset of the pbase so hellbent on achieving rank and power? What will you do with it when you get there? Once you've won, what then? You'll go "raise the glass ceiling higher!" because you'll stagnate at that rank, rather than stagnating a rank below. It isn't really the power you want, whether you think it is or not. It is the challenge of reaching it. I argue that the challenge is still there. You can absolutely strive for power, but when you reach a certain point, well, you've won. Game over.

The journey and the struggle is the fun part.. and if you don't want to hit Red/Senior/Lt whatever and get stored, well, not every successful character has to have grand ambitions.

I'm not sure it's a 'subset', I think it's a fairly predominant desire, as seen by the posts here. And whilst I agree that not every character need to aim for the skies, but having that as a possibility only serves to expand the options available. Simply 'wanting more power' is an oversimplification of that. A blue robe I once played didn't -want- to have power, and didn't want to succeed (hell, he hardly wanted to be a templar). This character, who really just wanted to relax and drink tea, nevertheless is thrust into the spotlight- it would have been even more of a conflict of interest if he had been pushed further and further. Other character drivers and goals are possible - the pursuit of a higher station could be tangential to that, as a reward, or as a goal in and of itself. More-over, there's not much about the 'journey' that is even possible if you are hamstrung in every respects or have very little ability to pursue goals along that path. If there's a glass ceiling, there's no 'journey' to get there, because you can't even start.

I think if you're inferring that there's a lot of players who just 'want more power', I think that's an incorrect. I think that a lot of players want the chance to put a mark on the game, other characters, and achieve something cool. That's not mutually exclusive with not being able to do things like achieve high rank, build a fortress, build your own coded clan/tribe/etc but being able to do all of those things opens the horizons.

It's not smoke and mirrors. People reminisce about the experiences, achievements, and tragedies this game has created for over two decades now.

[Vex]

I'm not sure it's a 'subset', I think it's a fairly predominant desire, as seen by the posts here.

It looks like about a dozen or so people going on about it, with some some others making neutral comments.

I would call that, a subset, and a minor one, at that.

Honest question, why is a vocal subset of the pbase so hellbent on achieving rank and power?

Still remains the most relevant question, so far.

[Dar]

Its a complicated situation.

There was once a Red Robe in allanak.

But that was during days when the guild had more psionicists, sorcerers, vampires, ghouls, shapechangers then mundane normal people. And even during 'that' time thematically the red robe was more powerful then all of those.

Now every blue has this emptiness inside them. They got all the influence, power, recognition that they can achieve. They are two heads ahead of all other blue robes. But ... no red robe promotion. Some other player managed it, but he cant! Its unfair!

[Heade]

It's not smoke and mirrors. People reminisce about the experiences, achievements, and tragedies this game has created for over two decades now.

I think this is a really good point, and brings up what, to me, seems to be an issue right now. For years and years, Armageddon was presented as a world in which players could really create something, and enact lasting change, forming tribes or organizations in a similar fashion to the Guild that could end up outliving their own character. This focus on creation was a playground for the imagination, and attracted people who had that desire to play in a dynamic world where they had only 1 "life" to live, but that it could matter, and leave a lasting impression.

I think, somewhere along the way, the focus on "creation" sort of took a back seat to convenience. And when paired with the closing of many elements of the game that had been created along the way(Tuluk, Gypsies, etc), along with strict rules about the creation of things like player tribes, it can sometimes feel like that vast magical playground of the imagination no longer exists, but has transformed into a much more narrowly defined sandbox, with strict rules on what your sand castle is allowed to look like, and how to go about building it.

Sort of like going from a blank canvas, to color by numbers.

[Red Ranger]

It's not smoke and mirrors. People reminisce about the experiences, achievements, and tragedies this game has created for over two decades now.

I think this is a really good point, and brings up what, to me, seems to be an issue right now. For years and years, Armageddon was presented as a world in which players could really create something, and enact lasting change, forming tribes or organizations in a similar fashion to the Guild that could end up outliving their own character. This focus on creation was a playground for the imagination, and attracted people who had that desire to play in a dynamic world where they had only 1 "life" to live, but that it could matter, and leave a lasting impression.

I think, somewhere along the way, the focus on "creation" sort of took a back seat to convenience. And when paired with the closing of many elements of the game that had been created along the way(Tuluk, Gypsies, etc), along with strict rules about the creation of things like player tribes, it can sometimes feel like that vast magical playground of the imagination no longer exists, but has transformed into a much more narrowly defined sandbox, with strict rules on what your sand castle is allowed to look like, and how to go about building it.

Sort of like going from a blank canvas, to color by numbers.

This is close to my feeling.

I used to tell my friends that Arm is so much better than Everquest (for you young people, that was a popular MMORPG in the last century), because unlike the static Everquest literally anything was possible within the framework of the Arm world. Not probable, but possible. The trend to take away previously available roles eroded that feeling for me, and really cut into my immersion toward the end.

[Delirium]

Its a complicated situation.

There was once a Red Robe in allanak.

But that was during days when the guild had more psionicists, sorcerers, vampires, ghouls, shapechangers then mundane normal people. And even during 'that' time thematically the red robe was more powerful then all of those.

Now every blue has this emptiness inside them. They got all the influence, power, recognition that they can achieve. They are two heads ahead of all other blue robes. But ... no red robe promotion. Some other player managed it, but he cant! Its unfair!

And during that time, if you weren't a special powered character or directly allied with one, you felt absolutely useless.

That style of game made mundanes feel so irrelevant and be so irrelevant that we had the great Karma-off.

You all love to look back with rose-colored glasses but you forget the bad stuff that went along with the awesome.

I don't really have a solution to suggest right now, and I'm not saying what we have now should be the status quo - I absolutely think players should be able to impact the gameworld in a meaningful fashion - but how do we go about that without resulting in howls of outrage and favoritism from those who didn't succeed (for whatever reason) without somehow codifying the process and thus taking some of the spontaneous life out of it? It's not as simple as "raise the glass ceiling", if it were simple I'm sure it'd have been done.

[Bogre]

@Vex - with a quick glance at the thread from start to finish, there's about 10 people who posted about the limitation of the glass ceiling, and four-five who were open to more mid-level promotions being opened up.

And about 4-5 non staff who posted against it, for the status quo.

So. While yes, you could argue that it's a 'subset' based on inadequate or vocal minority representation from the playerbase, I think it's more likely that the opposite is in fact true.

In the old GDB, we'd be a polling.

[Bogre]

I don't really have a solution to suggest right now, and I'm not saying what we have now should be the status quo - I absolutely think players should be able to impact the gameworld in a meaningful fashion - but how do we go about that without resulting in howls of outrage and favoritism from those who didn't succeed (for whatever reason) without somehow codifying the process and thus taking some of the spontaneous life out of it? It's not as simple as "raise the glass ceiling", if it were simple I'm sure it'd have been done.

As an ironic aside, I played a completely mundane character at that time who had achieved the IC equivalent rank of a Captain, who didn't feel completely useless. I mean, sometimes. I more wished I had rolled as an assassin rather than a merchant so I would have useable skills. But I was able to be involved in a lot of crazy stuff, still.

I do agree though. Just raising the ceiling doesn't equal meaningful game world impact. But in some cases it might. I would instead advocate for an expansion of the possible - both vertical, which would be exceedingly rare, and horizontal. Horizontal expansion would be the ability to do lasting things without a huge increase in coded / virtual power, like building a tribe, building/changing a coded structure, starting a clan, the moving and shaking in the game world. And it's these kinds of things more so that are a more realistically achievable way to having lasting impact than just achieving a high rank.

[Marauder Moe]

I like the idea of upper ranks being a sort of semi-retirement role.

Being a clan leader is tough.  Recruiting, training, disciplining, and entertaining a gaggle of PCs on top of performing regular clan business is a lot of work.  People can get burned out pretty fast.

A lieutenant level position seems perfect for a long-lived character in good clan standing who's tired of the job-like responsibility but still loves the clan and the character. 

Let them play.  Let them augment the de-facto leader that replaces them.  Set clear OOC boundaries for their authority.

[CodeMaster]

I like the idea of upper ranks being a sort of semi-retirement role.

Being a clan leader is tough.  Recruiting, training, disciplining, and entertaining a gaggle of PCs on top of performing regular clan business is a lot of work.  People can get burned out pretty fast.

A lieutenant level position seems perfect for a long-lived character in good clan standing who's tired of the job-like responsibility but still loves the clan and the character. 

Let them play.  Let them augment the de-facto leader that replaces them.  Set clear OOC boundaries for their authority.

What a great idea.  I think that'd be perfect for a lot of players.  Put them in charge of a group of virtual sergeants and let them tell stories until they're ready to play again (or truly retire the character).  I'm sure someone can think up an excuse for them losing that rank if they want to return to regular play.

[Dar]

I like the idea of upper ranks being a sort of semi-retirement role.

Being a clan leader is tough.  Recruiting, training, disciplining, and entertaining a gaggle of PCs on top of performing regular clan business is a lot of work.  People can get burned out pretty fast.

A lieutenant level position seems perfect for a long-lived character in good clan standing who's tired of the job-like responsibility but still loves the clan and the character. 

Let them play.  Let them augment the de-facto leader that replaces them.  Set clear OOC boundaries for their authority.

That 'would' be pretty cool. Hrmmm. But ooc restrictions would need to be there to prevent invalidation of the de facto leader.

I love that idea.


As for creating stuff. Me and another player did create the RF camp. And we did it inspite of staff telling us we must not do it. Did it against restrictions until staff finally began supporting it half a year later. By then, both our characters were dead, but what we created was self perpetuated by characters we brought in into the idea.

[Riev]

It never came to fruition, but here's a semi-relevant story (that I feel is no longer possible in Armageddon)

I played Creek. A Tuluki Legionnaire who really thought he was doing good and being fair and merciful. All around good guy. He'd break your arm if you were insistent, but otherwise he'd try to talk to you before calling in the Faithful. Many barely-interesting stories about him, but he existed in a time with a pair of Lirathans, and a slew of Jihaen's that struggled to stick around. Regardless, he got to the rank of Sergeant MOSTLY by attrition, but it allowed his previous Sergeant, Lindrick, to attain the rank of Lieutenant. The player didn't play MUCH at that point, but enjoyed his character and still wanted to muck around, so they gave him the black cloak. This allowed Creek to sit in his Sergeant position for quite a while, only losing it at one point due to a very strong feeling that a Faithful-led patrol into a bahamet was ill-conceived and led to the death of someone he was grooming for his OWN position.

For a while, Creek's sole occupation was to join the Ivory Guard (a thing that wasn't even possible THEN), the intention being that in that position, he would be Sergeant over a small group of pike-wielding virtual soldiers. Nothing to threaten people with, but just an interesting backstory to the character. He had (supposedly) personal recommendations from every PC Templar in the city and the only thing holding him back was that they wanted another Sergeant for the First, because when he left he'd have no authority in the Legions anymore.

I do not think this kind of progression was possible THEN, but I think it is actively discouraged NOW because there is no possibility that staff can/will support that. The clan is closed, the idea would give virtual power to a non-virtual character, etc etc. Did I want the POWER? Hell no. I wanted to stay in the Legions but open up the slot for someone else. I recognized it needed fresh blood, but I didn't want to sacrifice my PC for it. In my mind, he would be sort of a Consigliere to the PC Legion Sergeant(s) and help out if they had a very particular patrol, but otherwise be background and MAYBE tapped if there was a city-based RPT where the Ivory Guard would be called in.

tl;dr - Power isn't always about power, and I feel very ... perturbed that my intention of gameplay is being boiled down into something easy to attack. I don't play anymore, because this ISN'T the kind of game I want to play. I've already admitted that. You don't need to tell me that I "played it wrong" or anything. That is, frankly, very rude.

[Heade]

I don't play anymore, because this ISN'T the kind of game I want to play. I've already admitted that. You don't need to tell me that I "played it wrong" or anything.

I don't think you played wrong, Riev. I remember some old threads where we butted heads back in the day, so we didn't always agree, but I think you were a good member of the community, and I'm sure the game is worse off without you. Hopefully one day, you'll see a reason to return. It's always easier to enact change from within.