Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[Bebop]

Regarding lack of upward mobility in roles:

I guess I'm one of those people who are more process-oriented than goal-oriented.  It's all about the journey rather than the destination.  Sure, I'd love to have a fancy title and wield some power, who wouldn't,  but I'd find both meaningless if to get there, I had to do a lot of what I think of as "make believe" for lack of a better term.  By that I mean such things as RP'ing with vnpc's, manipulating things and people in the virtual world, RP'ing with NPCs who may or may not respond.  Don't get me wrong, I do interact with the virtual world, we all should and sometimes we -must- because we cannot actually do such things as build a house or burn down a tree or create a new cooking recipe on the spot.  But personally, I much prefer the plots and stories that really happen and unfold in real time.  Those on their own are probably not going to take me to a promotion and that's fine with me.

If I were ever to attain a senior position, say a senior noble, I'd fear that I'd again have to do "make believe" in order to keep playing out the life of my PC.  What other senior nobles would I have to roleplay with?  Who could I scheme against within my House?  Who would I plot against or ally with in other Houses?  If my aide were to die or get stored, how would I replace them?  A senior noble doesn't hire neophytes to be their aide and there seems to be a real shortage of aides in Allanak as it is.

So, getting to the point of all my rambling, I don't think there is or ever can be a structure which will support senior echelon roles.  There needs to be enough other PC's in such roles and, in addition, enough suitable minions.

Medena,  I agree with you.  To me it is less about power and more about the journey.  But in order to have a journey you STILL need a destination.  You still need a character with an end goal in mind.  If your character wants to do well in their House or clan that should be rewarded.  I don't know why you're associating doing well in game with "make believe" or virtual role play.  If I'm a Byn Sergeant and I lead many successful contracts, create profit for the company and keep my men alive over a long period of time - I should be rewarded with upward mobility.  If I'm a noble that is profitable, represents my House well, does what I'm told and earns respect, I should be rewarded with upward mobility.  Etc.  All of these characters should also have exhibited a level of OOC trustworthiness and capacity as an IG leader.

You don't need to RP virtually to earn upward mobility and you don't have to be power hungry to want upward mobility.  Promotion shouldn't be easily and instantly obtained, but it SHOULD be obtainable to at least a minor degree.  A HUGE part of politicking is power.  I'm currently reading a book called the 40 Laws of Power which is this massive Machiavellian sort of book that goes on and on through ages of history about con artists, courtiers, nobility, leaders etc and how they obtained power and status.  If you can't obtain power and status in some of these roles where that's literally your meat and potatoes you've pretty much neutered the role.  Then you really do have make believe because you're just role playing like you can climb the ladder when there's really no ladder to climb because of an OOC rule.  And that's crap to be honest.

[Brokkr]

Getting promoted as a Noble and a Templar to Senior Noble and Red Templar means a degree of power that is hard to RP.  Much of what you should be doing at those ranks would be virtual.  More importantly, you have power over other nobles or nobles/templars, sometimes up to the power of life and death over the folks who are meant to be your peers.  Which is just as plot killing as a Lirathu Templar.  The time you spent accumulating power through politics with the templarate, shady organizations, GMH, budding MMH, etc. is not longer useful or especially relevant, since socially and through the power structure of your House or the Templarate you sort of have that power through your new rank.  It invalidates the struggle that other PCs can provide you with.  Which means that true, risky conflict can only come from Staff, and a sizeable portion of players would rather not have that.  On the other hand, we don't want anyone in a position that they don't have the potential for conflict.

[Bebop]

Getting promoted as a Noble and a Templar to Senior Noble and Red Templar means a degree of power that is hard to RP.  Much of what you should be doing at those ranks would be virtual.  More importantly, you have power over other nobles or nobles/templars, sometimes up to the power of life and death over the folks who are meant to be your peers.  Which is just as plot killing as a Lirathu Templar.  The time you spent accumulating power through politics with the templarate, shady organizations, GMH, budding MMH, etc. is not longer useful or especially relevant, since socially and through the power structure of your House or the Templarate you sort of have that power through your new rank.  It invalidates the struggle that other PCs can provide you with.  Which means that true, risky conflict can only come from Staff, and a sizeable portion of players would rather not have that.  On the other hand, we don't want anyone in a position that they don't have the potential for conflict.

First of all, you're talking about plot killing.  What plot killing is there when for decades this game has said that nobility plot to ascend.  Historically in the real world and historically in the game that has been the aim of nobility and this leads to the tagline murder, corruption, betrayal.  What are people vying for in Zalanthas?  Power.  Authority.  Prestige and the money and resources that go with it.  If you take away people's ability to strive for power because you don't trust them with it then you have effectively removed the primary reward players were seeking in a role play game.   You have completely removed what nobility roles have been known for for RL decades IRL and IG.

Secondly, power ascension is standard and normal in RP games.  That's like saying people can't be the Prince in Vampire the Masquerade anymore, or that can't play Primogen (head of their clans) and that story tellers are just going to do it.  It's like saying in Amtgard people can't become King or Queen.  It's like saying in Skyrim you're not going to become an earl or leader etc.  That's like running a D and D campaign with your friends for a few years and then after awhile telling them they have to stop leveling because they're getting too powerful. You adjust as a DM you don't make your players stop playing.  This is a game.  There has to be a sense of reward and social scaling.

I would like to understand where this concept has come from that giving PC's the ability to actually gain power has been damaging to the game when it has worked for years upon years, in fact for the majority of the life of the game?  Some of the most noteworthy characters were characters that achieved that power like Great Lord Samos, like Lieutenant Raul, Lieutenant Paryl and Senior Lady Ceylara (sp?) Borsail.  And they weren't damaging to their peers, they were put into those positions because they could be trusted with their peers and were only put into those positions when they had more than effectively proved that.  They didn't kill plots they created plots and they are still extremely memorable characters because of all of the dimension and stories they brought to the game.  How is appropriate for staff to suddenly snatch up these roles and monopolize them.  How is it rewarding for these roles to be held by NPCs?

Those characters started plots, and what's more is even the people that didn't like then wanted to BE them.  They knew if those characters were taken out and that if they could work as hard and live as long they too could achieve those grand heights.  The world felt possible and open.

You absolutely can not have a game centered around getting power and resources and achieving that through social means and then take away the roles' ability to achieve power and status through social means.  Then on top of that keep reminding them over real life months and real life years that they're shit heels to a bunch of NPCs.  It doesn't make any sense.  It doesn't work.  It weakens the plot, it causes players to stagnate.

You also say at those levels truly risky conflict can only come from Staff.  Absolutely not true.  And with what you've done you've already made players completely reliant on staff.  You've already done what you're claiming to try and avoid.  Magickers were a threat to high level Templars as were sorcercers.  If you're a senior noble crafter you're just as susceptible to backstab then as you were as a junior noble.  If you're a Lieutenant in the Byn and your dual wield is at max you're just a susceptible to death as being a Sergeant with your dual wield at max.  Changing what your character is called doesn't make them any less likely to die, it just means if someone kills them and implicates themselves they will suffer greater repercussions. 

They don't have to interact with NPCs historically there has been plenty to do, just like Agents have plenty to do.  It's a game, make it work for players.  Give them something to looking forward to.  This whole "they'd have to interact with NPCs thing" is bullocks.  Historically, players rising in rank has worked longer than it's been taken away.

Ultimately, you can say whatever you want but if you take a game about trying to climb the social ladder and you remove the social ladder to climb - you don't have a game.  You have ERP, squabbling and flash pan surface level conflicts that are never going to go anywhere and I'm pretty sure that that's why at the moment the game feels a bit soulless because there is no depth of story and everything is pigeonholed and micromanaged by staff hopping into high ranking NPCs to call all of the big shots.

I would much rather obey a PC Lieutenant or quiver in the shadow of a PC Red Robe, or scurry out of the way of a senior noble who has earned the trust of staff, has spent hours in the role and knows them and their clan super well then always be reliant upon staff inserting themselves momentarily here and there as the "big bads." 

[evilcabbage]

you... can't become an earl in skyrim.

[Bebop]

you... can't become an earl in skyrim.

O_O You know what I mean cabbage a ... I can't remember what you become when you get that annoying woman who is sworn to carry your burden but my point is you get titles and become the dovahkiin you don't follow around an NPC dovahkiin the NPC follows you.  If you were following the NPC around instead of vice versa that game would suck.

[evilcabbage]

a thane.

[Intrepid]

O_O You know what I mean cabbage a ... I can't remember what you become when you get that annoying woman who is sworn to carry your burden but my point is you get titles and become the dovahkiin you don't follow around an NPC dovahkiin the NPC follows you.  If you were following the NPC around instead of vice versa that game would suck.

Forgive me, Bebop.  I'm about to go into nerd moment.

The Thane title in Whiterun is not really anything.  It's honorary and it gets you one free pass ever with the guard in that city.  Sure, you gain a fanatic bodyguard, but you can do that with the low low price of just 500 septims and no title.  Aside from those factors, you never really see it come up again.  I'd barely call it an achievement.

Ok, I'll stop now.  Promise.

[Harmless]

what if there was an ascended rank available for multiple role types -- be it a Lieutenant, senior noble, elementalist [redacted], etc, but it was only available for a specific period of time before everyone agrees in advance that you will be eventually stored and made virtual. During that time, you get to use (or abuse) your power, get your revenge on old foes, get your magickal jollies, or lead a few epic military campaigns, and you only get there with LOTS of IC effort and preparation. Plans for the things you intend to do need to be proposed in advance through requests, and if they are approved, you are basically promoted just to attempt (possibly fail) those plans/actions once promoted/ascended, then once that fizzles out, you go virtual.

It'd still be pretty rewarding, it would lead to impacts in the game world, but it doesn't commit either the player or staff to a neverending task of catering to a very powerful PC.

[Eyeball]

Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

[Lizzie]

Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

So now you have to re-schedule the whole thing, because you need to make it as inclusive as possible.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, to do on the regular. It's hard enough to organize a festival once or twice a RL year. But to try and get 15 players interacting with each other, every RL week, with minimal arranging off-camera? And NOT burn out after a few months? Good luck with that. If there are 3 players in this game, including staff, who are up for that, I'd be surprised. And if ONE of them was actually interested in doing it, I'd be shocked.

[Krath]

Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

So now you have to re-schedule the whole thing, because you need to make it as inclusive as possible.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, to do on the regular. It's hard enough to organize a festival once or twice a RL year. But to try and get 15 players interacting with each other, every RL week, with minimal arranging off-camera? And NOT burn out after a few months? Good luck with that. If there are 3 players in this game, including staff, who are up for that, I'd be surprised. And if ONE of them was actually interested in doing it, I'd be shocked.

While this is correct, shouldn't the player be able to decide if they want that level of responsibility? Just because one person does not want that level of responsibility that  does not mean everyone else should not be allowed the choice to take it on.

Maybe I read you post wrong too.

[ShaLeah]

Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

So now you have to re-schedule the whole thing, because you need to make it as inclusive as possible.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, to do on the regular. It's hard enough to organize a festival once or twice a RL year. But to try and get 15 players interacting with each other, every RL week, with minimal arranging off-camera? And NOT burn out after a few months? Good luck with that. If there are 3 players in this game, including staff, who are up for that, I'd be surprised. And if ONE of them was actually interested in doing it, I'd be shocked.

While this is correct, shouldn't the player be able to decide if they want that level of responsibility? Just because one person does not want that level of responsibility that  does not mean everyone else should not be allowed the choice to take it on.

Maybe I read you post wrong too.

I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

[Bogre]

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

This is really no different than things currently, with any leadership role.

The 'power' differential is not really that huge of an issue. Say: A Red Robe is supremely powerful, yeah, and is supposed to command an entire legion. Say another PC makes Red Robe - and becomes exponentially more powerful. Does it really matter? As a Blue you can already point to nearly any PC you want and summarily execute them, and codedly turn people into boiled ocotillo snacks on a whim anyways. So the other PC Blue robes are now shitting their robes around you - so what? That's what the IC NPC Red Robe templars represent. If they hate you that much they can plot your downfall.

You don't really gain the ability to decide to march on Luirs or whatever - because you still have constraints from above (The councils, Staff, black robes, the big guy himself) etc. But maybe you have marshaled the resources to implement major change, to make a mark on the world. And hopefully, there would be some folks who would rise to challenge that, and others to do your terrible bidding.

The game stagnates when we just play out repetitions on 'I'm a Byn Sarge now, now I'm a rogue magicker, now I'm a dwarf raider'. We don't want to kick around in nicely lined character plans. We want the chance to be the Byn Sarge who broke the enemy flank, the rogue Whiran who's storms raged across the Red for a decade, the dwarf raider who leads a goddamn army to the gates of Allanak. Maybe to be those Red Robes dueling in the streets for power.

[Eyeball]

I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

Could be but doesn't have to be.

Just as a segment of players loves politics and backroom intrigue, another segment just likes to go out and kick ass.

[ShaLeah]

I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

Could be but doesn't have to be.

Just as a segment of players loves politics and backroom intrigue, another segment just likes to go out and kick ass.

The higher up you go in ANY organization the more trusted you are with its inner workings. On Zalanthas where mistakes cost you not only your job but frequently your life and that of anyone unfortunately around you sometimes, giving a Lieutenant too much badassery power reminds me of just a sergeant.  Not that they aren't badasses but they're done.  They paid their dues, it's time for the next level.

I've always associated them on par with GMH agents and NH advisors. I'm not going to waste a Lieutenant on just any old contract.  They're z NOT expendable.

[Bigbruiser]

I love how we can post about something that just happened on the GDB and instantly make me realize who the person on the forum plays, even if they tried to be vague. Stay classy Allanak

[boog]

Another side effect of the gameworld being too small.

[Riev]

I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

Could be but doesn't have to be.

Just as a segment of players loves politics and backroom intrigue, another segment just likes to go out and kick ass.

The higher up you go in ANY organization the more trusted you are with its inner workings. On Zalanthas where mistakes cost you not only your job but frequently your life and that of anyone unfortunately around you sometimes, giving a Lieutenant too much badassery power reminds me of just a sergeant.  Not that they aren't badasses but they're done.  They paid their dues, it's time for the next level.

I've always associated them on par with GMH agents and NH advisors. I'm not going to waste a Lieutenant on just any old contract.  They're z NOT expendable.

On this topic (just my opinion, I like me my Byn):

A Sergeant, by all means, should be negotiating with the aides of nobles. Usually meeting in some dingy bar or, if they're looking to impress, something fancier like Red's Retreat. You've been through battle, you've seen the other side. You know what can be done, and how much it is going to cost. You're still a shit-smeared fuckwit with JUST enough respect to get a few hands together to do the work.

A Lieutenant is the one meeting with Nobility personally. Making assurances about what can be done, negotiating the kinds of contract work that takes multiple units (full on raids, expensive protection, long-term placement, etc). The Lieutenant is an Officer now. They're not just some brawny idiot who is good with a sword. They've proven their mettle, they are loyal to the Company, and they know how to comport themselves.

I would NEVER expect to see a Lieutenant on the field unless there is Nobility out there who have arranged for a private guard, or there is a new encampment being set up and the Lieutenant pissed off a Captain and has "Desert Duty" for a few weeks. So a PC Lieutenant, to me, seems to be more of the Political Schemer in the Byn, while the multitude of Sergeants is MORE for RPT/Quest work. How long as Lieutenant Copper been wanting to be done with her position? How tired is she? She has to promote a dozen new Sergeants a year because they keep dying, and none of them can replace her.

[Dar]

There's a level of cooperative, but conflict between the sergeants of different units in the Byn.

Lieutenants should hobnobble with nobility, while Sargeants only deal with aides? Let's be honest. Sargeants scheme with Nobles just as fine. All you need to do is be better then your other sargeants.

Lieutenants are too important to go out into the field? Let's be honest. Unless it's something minor like a spider patrol, or perhaps even that. Lieutenant PCs still went on that patrol if there was nothing to currently do in the city, or there was a lack of hitting power currently logged in at the time.


The only thing Lieutenants have that a Sargeant doesnt, is authority 'within' the Byn. Authority over 'other' Sargeants and that is moot when there are no sargeants anyway, or unfair, when there are, but you're not really all that unquestionably better/more influencial/revered then them.

It's not difficult to become a Byn lieutenant. You just need to grow the Byn so much, that they become in need of an lieutenant, due to the sheer numbers and contracts pouring in. They need someone with a decisive authority over the other three sargeants.

[Eyeball]

Lieutenants are too important to go out into the field? Let's be honest. Unless it's something minor like a spider patrol, or perhaps even that. Lieutenant PCs still went on that patrol if there was nothing to currently do in the city, or there was a lack of hitting power currently logged in at the time.

Exactly. Raul went out in the field all of the time. He died in the field along with many Byn, defending Allanak against fire elementals. He was probably the best PC Byn Lieutenant of them all.

Koman Locke should have been made a Lieutenant given the way he built warband Fury up in his time.

[Dar]

Yeah. I'd be curious to learn why didnt it happen. If I understood correctly, Byn was pretty kicking at the time. Was it the no-elves policy?  I wasnt in the Byn, so not enough information to really understand it, or talk about it.

[Riev]

It's not difficult to become a Byn lieutenant. You just need to grow the Byn so much, that they become in need of an lieutenant, due to the sheer numbers and contracts pouring in. They need someone with a decisive authority over the other three sargeants.

This, as an estranged Veteran, is where I hold a lot of issue. I need to, personally, grow the PC-side of the T'zai Byn Company by so much that staff "have" to give me a Lieutenant position?

Why can't I become a Lieutenant because I'm trying my best? Why can't I become a Lieutenant because I've survived, brought in a lot of coin for the Company, and want to dedicate myself to the Mercenary life as an Officer? Why am I relegated to needed to spend so much of my REAL LIFE free time hoping my players, and my staff are all working at the same time to make things interesting, so I have the CHANCE at a role?

It IS difficult to become a Lieutenant. It should be. But currently by Staff policy its not possible, and the only workaround is to have 20 RL friends all in the clan with you. This is why I cannot play this game anymore. Merit. Time invested. In game consequences. None of it seems to matter unless you do some IRL impressive.

[Dar]

Because the difference between a Sargeant and Lieutenant is that you have authority over other sargeants. That's all.  Trying your best shouldnt be enough. You should be head and toe better then 'other' sargeants.

But what if there are no new sargeants, or just one other sargeant? Then what's a point of a Lieutenant? It's just an attempt to get a 'coded' one up over another sargeant. And if there isnt one and later on, one gets sponsored in, suddenly you are in greater authority over them, for ... for what? For defaulting due to time served?

Truth of the matter is that a Lt. position should only be fair to be given to a player, if there is a shitton of other people in that clan. The moment there isnt, it disbalances the power equalibrium between different units, giving one a coded, inarguable, unmanueverable advantage. This doesnt 'create' conflict, it reduces it and for what specific benefit?  What's the trade off? An ego boost to a person who played long enough in the clan unchallenged?


This is why I like playing Celves. No coded ranks. You're as high in rank as your personal skill and ability is allowing you to be. Someone hungrier shows up? Best try harder to stay up, or they'll take take over. No clan that can call me title X and suddenly I'm a big kahuna, regardless of how shitty I am, compared to someone else.

[Miradus]

One thing that has "estranged" me to a degree (not to a degree that I've stopped playing) is the system of sponsored roles.

For example, I saw once where you had 7 players in a merchant house. The sponsored role controlling that merchant house died. Of those 7 players, 2-3 of them had been in the house for over a RL year. But instead of promoting one of those up, staff brought in a new sponsored role to come in.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but as an outsider I kept wondering why the house didn't promote from within. There's rules in the house documents for that. Blood marriages and such, or simply just appoint one of them an 'ad hoc' overseer and leave them in charge. Instead, someone got the roll who didn't know the people, didn't know the dynamic, and apparently didn't get along because within about a month the house self-destructed.

[Dar]

One thing that has "estranged" me to a degree (not to a degree that I've stopped playing) is the system of sponsored roles.

For example, I saw once where you had 7 players in a merchant house. The sponsored role controlling that merchant house died. Of those 7 players, 2-3 of them had been in the house for over a RL year. But instead of promoting one of those up, staff brought in a new sponsored role to come in.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but as an outsider I kept wondering why the house didn't promote from within. There's rules in the house documents for that. Blood marriages and such, or simply just appoint one of them an 'ad hoc' overseer and leave them in charge. Instead, someone got the roll who didn't know the people, didn't know the dynamic, and apparently didn't get along because within about a month the house self-destructed.

Sometimes those situations are a little weird. But sometimes straight forward. Last time I was in the Byn for example, the time neared for when we'd need another sargeant. There were also a bunch of 'very' capable Troopers hopping around at the time. Unfortunately, many of those troopers have 'played' Sargeants before, 'were' known for beingcapable leaders, often took over leadership during the moments when sergeants were indisposed, knew 'exactly' what that role demands, and simply did not want to be promoted. They simply were not interested in leadership. They didnt have the desire, or the time investment that the role requires, or a combination of both. That usually results in a sponsored role. Which at times gets complicated. Because there you have a group of people who work well together, but none of them wants to be a leader, despite many of them being capable. A sponsored role comes in who 'wants' to be leader, but often has difficulty overcoming the cohesiveness of the group and the skill and personal gravitas of some of sponsored role's own underlings. Sometimes, the sponsored role succeeds and reinforces his rule, sometimes it turns out badly. Nobody here to blame really. It is, what it is. Though, I suppose, sometimes it's something else entirely. Like Staff not believing the current members to be worthy of leadership and then sponsoring in someone who is even worse at leadership then those present. Pretty sure shit like that happened as well. But again, it's too convoluted, intricate, and variable and issue for there to be a single simple clearcut answer.