Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[Iiyola]

My pet peeve is the lack of communication among staff. It seems staffer A doesn't know what has been discussed IG with staffer B. Or when a particular NPC suddenly acts COMPLETELY different than usual and throws you under the bus.

Yes, I'm still bitter about that death. And I believe the above is the main reason for it.

[Armaddict]

My pet peeve is the lack of communication among staff. It seems staffer A doesn't know what has been discussed IG with staffer B. Or when a particular NPC suddenly acts COMPLETELY different than usual and throws you under the bus.

Yes, I'm still bitter about that death. And I believe the above is the main reason for it.

I had something similar happen, where I asked directly if the thing I talked about with A had been delivered to the person who killed me as promised.  They said no, they forgot, but there was no guarantee that would have changed anything.

I don't really blame the death on it, but still...that was months where it could have been done, and it did have some pretty important 'Still doing X thing' information in it.  I could have definitely changed things, and that wasn't infuriating, but it was shake-head worthy.

[Harmless]

Don't forget the gypsies, Moe! Even though I'm probably a minority in that regard 

Wait..


Gypsies are closed?

YABSD  (Yet Another Bad Staff Decision...)

I missed this.


This is deeply disappointing and is outright stupid.

Fix this immediately...make them an entirely unsupported role if desired, but allow those players with the lore and knowhow to play one to play the role they want.

I have never played a gypsy before but they do nothing but good for the game, so wtf?

[Dar]

they're not exactly closed, but mostly just borderline extinct and eviscerated years ago. If some portions of them exist, they are so different then what gypsies were once. I imagine so different, staff is yet to write it up wtf exactly are they.

[Harmless]

I have been playing quite a bit ever since years before the volcano incident, and remember gypsies plenty before it as well as after it. I don't recall there being much IC justification for such a statement. I smell a retcon here.

[mansa]

I have been playing quite a bit ever since years before the volcano incident, and remember gypsies plenty before it as well as after it. I don't recall there being much IC justification for such a statement. I smell a retcon here.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Tan%20Muark

Not okay to use as background. This is a sponsored role. Open for play to PC's when sponsored role request is announced in Staff Announcements, on the GDB, but this is otherwise closed and cannot be applied for via 'role application'.


I believe they were always this way.

[Brokkr]

There was an attempt to have folks play the survivors, doing all enable the tribe to survive stuff, in the months after the volcano destroyed Tyn Dashra.  The last post in their forum is October 2014.  So they haven't been playable for awhile now.

[Aruven]

it takes longer to build/fix things than to destroy them.

This is the crux right here.

Destruction is easier, creation is harder. Taking things away is easier, building things is harder. PK is easier, engaging in long-term plots is challenging. Ultimately though, creating things (even if temporary, or intended to be changed over time) is far more rewarding as well.

Too much destruction and no creation leads to disenchanted and frustrated players.

This.

I never got full karma, all this stuff was taken after i'd played for ten or more years. That felt like a robbery, but after 12-13 years I felt it wasn't for me anyways, I wasn't enrolling people in my roleplay at that level. I'd try whatever the new shit was.

The game has changed. I'm appreciative to the players that've shaped it. I'm appreciative to the staff that've shaped it. I'm grateful the MUD is still around. 

The last guy I pulled in told me he was tired of his IC boss just telling him how to twink craft the code and putting him in a room to craft all day. (Wtf bruh)

We as players get to step it up too, or maybe its just me out here drifting? That was a clan leader he was talking about. I get lazy if I get bored and can be a little twinky. I get reckless and kill plots i'm entrusted with by trying something utterly risky, lets say stupid. SOMETIMES. Sometimes I don't emote before the 9th forage anymore. I go AFK at unfortunate times (I do love dogs). And gith's breath my GRAMMAR, I just type like a SAVAGE. I only do it for your love! I'll make a genuine effort to be entertaining and receptive to some roleplay over code. I'll improve--Hell i'll even vote! MUDSEXX. We get to keep the players we do get if its righteous. 

Removing content sucks for me as a player, i'm also always open to change. It feels akward to see player initiatives seemingly restricted without the perceived change visible. As a player I've seen a lot go amongst the great additions. I do wonder where the game is at in the big picture. I feel like communication gets blurred between Discord and the GDB, and that enthusiastic side of staff communication for that vision kind of comes and goes in waves. I could also just be missing shit.

-Staff and players are both awesome, there've been some situations over the years: shit happens. Reconciliation is huge and its the only thing that keep the monopoly board from getting flipped and ruining it for everyone. Staff have a hard job. By all accounts it an be a thankless job and you get to comb threads like this one. I thinks its good to acknowledge the staff we do have for their efforts.

-Take up Seidhr's offer. Apply for staff and be the impetus for amazing things.

[Dar]

By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.

[yousuff]

By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.

+1000000000

[Eyeball]

By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.

Why not set up a Wiki for the documents and allow players to make edits which don't go in until a staff member approves them.

If some change is contentious, set up a poll here.

That could cover chronology too.

There could be an accompanying program to convert Wiki pages into text help files for access inside of the game.

[boog]

-Take up Seidhr's offer. Apply for staff and be the impetus for amazing things.

The statistics for actually becoming staff, and then being able to change the things you want are extremely low. We can all say that we would change x, y, or z if we become staff, but it's highly unlikely that you'd be able to for a number of reasons, speaking from experience.

I don't think this is the way to change anything. I mean, do you have to become a politician to change policy? No, certainly not. You have to be a vocal citizen, though.

I think this thread is doing a good job in doing just that: vocalizing issues. No one's been overdramatic or ugly. All of this is being rather politely discussed.

[Feco]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to second a few things.  I still play, for what it's worth.

*Firstly, I'll say the biggest reason I've been absent has been life circumstances.  I've had a job that's been half travel and half work-at-home for the last year or so.  While traveling I'm too busy to play.  Working at home, I've had to avoid open-ended time sinks like Armageddon and other games to help maintain the discipline required to get things accomplished.  Not much can be done about that, but I may have a lull in a work for a few months and might be able to play again.

3) Not enough time to play to devote in-depth effort.  Most of the time I have like 30-45 minutes tops, off-peak, and it's spent on #2, above...because nobody enjoys dying to scrabs.

4) Difficult to maintain connections when you're a part-time, mostly off-peak player.  If you go a RL week without logging in, everyone has moved on like your PC died or they aren't really Devoted To The Cause (whatever that may be).

This is a major problem for me, particularly because I've played leaders (or at least movers and shakers) for the past couple years.  The problem I have is that I have big peaks and lulls -- I may be able to sink decent amounts of time here and there, but sometimes I just have to step back.

There's this discouraging compounding effect, too.  You don't log in with regularity, or only log in for a bit at a time, and it seems to be a problem for the people you interact with.  Then you're almost afraid to log in because of the onslaught of "I FIGURED YOU WERE DEAD," "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN HIDING?," "WHY AREN'T YOU DEDICATED TO OUR MISSION," [insert other statements about your PCs personality that assumes that being logged out means they're just sleeping or something], so maybe you don't here and there, which only makes it "worse," so to speak.  Sometimes I often wonder if logging in for 15 minutes is worse, because than it turns into "WHY ARE YOU AVOIDING ME?"

I'll admit that not all of those accusations are direct -- sometimes it's just a feeling you get.  It may not always be accurate.

My major way of dealing with this is activating my patented Not Giving a Fuck Technology, but I'm not particularly good at using it all the time.

[Zambo]

Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

[seidhr]

Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

Staff would be happy to investigate any of your bad experiences but you'll have to provide us with specifics (logs, individuals involved, screenshots, and so on) via a request, as Akariel mentioned in the other thread.

[Namino]

Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

Staff would be happy to investigate any of your bad experiences but you'll have to provide us with specifics (logs, individuals involved, screenshots, and so on) via a request, as Akariel mentioned in the other thread.

Alright. I'm wading in. Grump mode activated.

If Zambo was asking for staff to punish offenders, I might be sympathetic to the demands for evidence. Rather, from what I gathered, the individual in question is merely trying to point out things that turned them off the game (ie, the same thing this thread has been trying to do all along). They're not asking for any administrative action. And with the exception of their third point (ie, the feeling that the OOC community here is hostile), their first two points shouldn't even require evidence. This game is notoriously tight-lipped about information that might help you enjoy it under the banner of find out IC, which makes this game very newbie unfriendly by the end of the day, sacrificing accessibility on the altar of... immersion, I suppose?

The second point being that there is a barrier to interaction in which people tend to only talk to established characters is true for Armageddon, and true for a lot of MUDs. People sit afk at the bar for hours rather than emote or interact with one another. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. It happens. And then their friends walk in and despite ignoring Dwarf McNewbEquipment for three hours, suddenly they're emoting up a storm. Bonus points if they're using a non-sirihish language to really drive home the exclusion.

As for the third point, a toxic community... well. I can't speak for Zambo's experience, but you least of all Seidhr should need me to remind you of the experiences I've endured at the hands of some elements in this community. I will happily provide logs, naturally, for the entertainment of the class -- but I will take the opportunity to point out that standards of evidence are required for trials, not for people expressing their opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and you don't require documentation to talk about yours if you really want to.

This really rubs me the wrong way how this is being handled. These complaints are valid. The snark and downright open hostility some criticism is being responded with is really not the ideal way forward.

Finally, I suggest the staff should take a look from everyone's favorite PR example ala mode, NolanT of Roll20 at what happens when you 'err on the side of caution' and assume someone is not who they say they are and take preliminary action without evidence other than a gut feeling.

Is it possible that Zambo's complaints resemble previous complaints because... you know... they're in regards to common problems that a multiple of people have experienced? Maybe?

[Akariel]

There was a simple request to clarify that has yet to be met. I did mention complaints, but I asked only for a request saying 'this is me' to unlock the thread. Please stick to the topic if you wish to continue in this thread, otherwise submit as staff complaint if you have issues with our moderation policy.

[seidhr]

Namino,

We are offering to investigate not because we want to punish people but to instead attempt to steer the community - whether it's the GDB or Discord, into a more friendly and newbie-inclusive direction.  If that means "punishing" people to either get them to stop or simply removing them from the community entirely, we'd all be better off for it.

Your post seems to be indicating we should just listen and not do anything about problems that are reported.  If we don't take action then nothing is going to change, if the problem is as reported.

There is zero snark here.

[Namino]

Your post seems to be indicating we should just listen and not do anything about problems that are reported.  If we don't take action then nothing is going to change, if the problem is as reported.

You're clearly reading a different thread than I am. You're not offering to investigate the perpetrators, but rather responded to valid criticism by preemptively locking a thread because the person who posted it 'seemed like someone else you remembered who also said mean things'.

But hey.

If there's no snark here, there's no snark here, right?

The Artist formerly known as Mastercrafting - aka wah wha wah wah nobody can mastercraft anymore!1!!11

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

[Marauder Moe]

Please not on this thread... we're so close to actually accomplishing something here.   

[yousuff]

I think you're being a bit unfair there Namino, you can hardly expect staff to punish someone wantonly without any actual evidence given to them. Play any online game, and try to get the people in charge of it to punish someone and they'll expect some form of proof. I also think staff isn't being too unreasonable, if the player has no proof their thread is baseless, so why shouldn't it be locked? If they have genuine reason to suspect it's someone trying to stir the pot fair enough.

Edit: Moe why are you so agreeable. Here's your second +1

[seidhr]

When I say "here", I mean in the this thread - when we offered to look into the problems Zambo reported.  This was a genuine offer, by not just one - but two admins, and should not be misconstrued as anything else.

The other thread (discussing an entirely different set of topics), that you are quoting, I was admittedly snarky and apologized for it - in that same thread.  You're attempting to set up a straw man.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Not a vet. Sorry the other thread got closed because it was a troll. Not sure I can reminisce about the good ol' days as well as most of the community because I was doing timestables when this game had all of its content available.

My gripe is that I resent staff for making it so I could never experience half of the stuff I decided to play the game for. Mantises, halfling, and gith I never got an opportunity to play. By the time I had enough karma to play a magic user they were all neutered and the unique ones I was really interested in were completely removed yet remain in the game as little more than a salute to the once deep lore. Literally all I know about these PCs is what people mutter about on this board and the junk still floating on the helpfiles.

What kind of request do I put in to complain about ruining an entire aesthetic?

[Dar]

Oh. I just read Zambo's other thread. Yeah. Definitely looks like a troll post made by someone who wanted to shittalk and advertise Arx on another game's forum. Considering it was done by an anonymous GDB account with posts only made in the troll post, GDB account was created 2 days ago, despite his claim to be playing for 3 months. A lot of very circumstantial, but still believable evidence. Easily dispelled if the gdb poster would attach some identity to his account, like for example his player account. Otherwise, I myself choose to read it as a troll who's not even playing the game.

[Vex]

By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.

I was actually, denied karma for this... and when pointing it out, out of genuine confusion, I was met with being called a lawyer... and basically that, "It is known.". The only (vague) references provided, were suggestions, that staff have made posts on the gdb (couldnt find), and "tribal docs", which I reread, and found absolutely nothing about celves, at all.

I, too, would like to see the docs brought up, and kept in line, with the staff expectation. It's a huge turn off, to be punished for not knowing something, when it is NOT INCLUDED in the docs, in ANY way at all.

As someone, who is very meticulous about pouring over docs, and wanting to know and understand the game world my pcs inhabit, it was... extremely frustrating. Less for being wrong, and more, because there was no chance, that I could have been right. It's like, stepping on a land mine, and being berated for not knowing, I was in a mine field. I should know... how? How should I know? Ridiculous!

Prior to this, I'd been having a really great time, and was setting aside more time for the game, than in the year before. Now, I log in because I feel obligated, and log off minutes later, because I'm not feeling it anymore.

Whats even worse is, nobody on staff had said a thing about it, on my prior elves. Nothing. If it's so big of a deal, you'll deny karma and get yourselves upset about it, WHY would you ignore it for SO LONG? Do you just sit on it, waiting, for a chance to surprise punish people?

It looks extremely petty, and no doubt why so many people think, that staff is out to get them.