Estranged Veterans' Perspective

[valeria]

I stop playing periodically, usually with family stuff involved. After I left and came back the first time, I got in with Fantasy Writer, who hooked me in. I felt treated unfairly in a sponsored roll, UnderSeven talked me down IRL and explained how staff might see it. Talia kept me around a while with great communication and stellar plots. I was gone a while because the world got shitty and the community got toxic, and then Path dragged me back for a while.

Right now, I'm gone after feeling Too Queer To Be Welcome Here (somewhere along the spectrum of too gay to function). I do periodically peruse the forums and intend to return eventually maybe probably. Probably in a role where I don't have to log into the forums. I don't have enough self-control not to read regularly when I do have to log on clan boards, and I enjoy the game more the less that I'm talking OOCly with folks about it. But since I play mostly crafters and now that feels very limited to me, who knows? I don't think it matters that much. I miss creating cooperative stories, but I don't miss the stress.

There is a pile of small things that I've begun dissatisfied with that have grown to be large things. The sorc nerf and gicker changes, even though I never played them. People who are driven to debate rather than discuss, on the forums. Recently, the crafting changes.

I can't remember where I was going with this, but I've been on WoW lately instead. It's just easier there, quick fun, even though I miss the heart-wrenching and heart-stopping drama.

Edit to add: I remembered my point on my drive home.  I'll play until something disgruntles me, really seriously disgruntles me, usually in combination with some major life-affecting RL stuff going on that puts it in perspective, and I realize that it's silly to be so upset over a game.  Then I'll quit playing for a while until the nostalgia factor kicks in and I come back.  Rinse and repeat.

[Heade]

Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

The skepticism isn't unfounded, Zambo. For the last 4 months, my business has sort of been running itself, so I've had an absolutely CRAZY amount of free time, which I've spent playing Arm and logged into the Discord. In that time, while I can't say I read every single message on discord, I've read a lot of them. You said there was blatant racism and sexism in the discord. That isn't something the community here tolerates, not even a little. In the last 4 months, I don't recall a single instance of "blatand racism or sexism" on the discord.

So, in the absence of proof in the form of something as simple as a screenshot, or even an explanation of your accusation, you'll have to excuse staff and the community at large for being skeptical. This is, in my experience, an extremely liberal community of players, and the behavior you're talking about would normally be called out instantly on the discord, if it happened.

[Veselka]

I think he was on the Shadowboard discord and didn't realize it.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

The skepticism isn't unfounded, Zambo. For the last 4 months, my business has sort of been running itself, so I've had an absolutely CRAZY amount of free time, which I've spent playing Arm and logged into the Discord. In that time, while I can't say I read every single message on discord, I've read a lot of them. You said there was blatant racism and sexism in the discord. That isn't something the community here tolerates, not even a little. In the last 4 months, I don't recall a single instance of "blatand racism or sexism" on the discord.

So, in the absence of proof in the form of something as simple as a screenshot, or even an explanation of your accusation, you'll have to excuse staff and the community at large for being skeptical. This is, in my experience, an extremely liberal community of players, and the behavior you're talking about would normally be called out instantly on the discord, if it happened.

Related to this, I think the Arm community goes out of their way to a fault trying to be accommodating. Honestly, this is one of those communities I point to that have been warped and ruined by agenda in some ways. Thankfully the weirdest attempts are short-lived. It just seems so silly to me that people will outcry and mince to get their way so they can virtue signal for a crowd of less than 300 people.

This is an escapist roleplaying game. I come here to kill and be a bigot and fart (all in game of course). Either this newby is a troll or bruises like a fruit and should probably avoid the internet. God help them if they stumble onto Reddit...

Right now, I'm gone after feeling Too Queer To Be Welcome Here (somewhere along the spectrum of too gay to function).

I find it hard to believe that you have difficulty being represented in a a game where being homosexual is so mundane and boring to the IC population. How would you prefer to be portrayed? Or is it that you have difficulty dealing with the community, because I think everyone on here is extremely supportive regarding orientation. Maybe you're getting some scary PMs? I dunno.

[Lizzie]

Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

The skepticism isn't unfounded, Zambo. For the last 4 months, my business has sort of been running itself, so I've had an absolutely CRAZY amount of free time, which I've spent playing Arm and logged into the Discord. In that time, while I can't say I read every single message on discord, I've read a lot of them. You said there was blatant racism and sexism in the discord. That isn't something the community here tolerates, not even a little. In the last 4 months, I don't recall a single instance of "blatand racism or sexism" on the discord.

So, in the absence of proof in the form of something as simple as a screenshot, or even an explanation of your accusation, you'll have to excuse staff and the community at large for being skeptical. This is, in my experience, an extremely liberal community of players, and the behavior you're talking about would normally be called out instantly on the discord, if it happened.

Related to this, I think the Arm community goes out of their way to a fault trying to be accommodating. Honestly, this is one of those communities I point to that have been warped and ruined by agenda in some ways. Thankfully the weirdest attempts are short-lived. It just seems so silly to me that people will outcry and mince to get their way so they can virtue signal for a crowd of less than 300 people.

This is an escapist roleplaying game. I come here to kill and be a bigot and fart (all in game of course). Either this newby is a troll or bruises like a fruit and should probably avoid the internet. God help them if they stumble onto Reddit...

Right now, I'm gone after feeling Too Queer To Be Welcome Here (somewhere along the spectrum of too gay to function).

I find it hard to believe that you have difficulty being represented in a a game where being homosexual is so mundane and boring to the IC population. How would you prefer to be portrayed? Or is it that you have difficulty dealing with the community, because I think everyone on here is extremely supportive regarding orientation. Maybe you're getting some scary PMs? I dunno.

Many are supportive. Some don't care one way or another. A few have issues but I rarely ever see those issues mentioned on the GDB or in Discord. And some would prefer not to have to hear about sexual preference of the players at all, because it's SUCH a non-issue and they'd prefer to leave the sex talk to locked apartments in character, or their bedroom, in real life.

[boog]

I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

[Delirium]

I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

Not trying to say this doesn't happen, but honestly, I haven't seen this at all in the last few years I've been playing, with the exception of the occasional openly sexist newbie rocking the tall, muscular physique. I did see it once upon a time in Days of Yore, but the playerbase seems to have matured a lot since then when it comes to their reactions to non-normative relationships.

If it's still being pushed back against, that sucks. To that I say, come back and play characters who react appropriately. More representation can only be a good thing, so that we can continue to push back against OOC prejudices surfacing IG. Ultimately people should be allowed to play what they're comfortable playing as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's fun or somehow go against game rules & documentation.



edited for hopeful clarity.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Yes. I agree with above.

This isn't a game about non-normative relationships, I would argue. Personally, I prefer to play characters who are essentially asexual, sinply because I find mudsexing to be somewhat appalling, regardless of coded gender. That said, no one should bat an eye when you decide to play a character seeking those relationships.

The problem with said characters is that of what I've seen they're the one schtick. Just like dwarves who only like to spar characters who only like to push OOC agenda must be a drag to play. They're pretty one note and boring to RP around. Though that's simply my experience. Thankfully, I feel like people would rather play characters they enjoy so my escapism is left mostly untouched.

This is a derail. Can we get back to pining for staff to make the game gud again?

[boog]

I think we were addressing a very well loved and well respected veteran who did not feel welcome here because of the aforementioned topic, so no, it wasn't truly a derail -- it was a glimpse into an estranged veteran's perspective, after all. I would love to see Valeria back and to play with her again. I would love to play with everyone again. I simply can't find the inspiration for doing so, especially when I've no idea what's going on, and all of the other things I mentioned previously. :/

Another small suggestion: Have a newly stickied post (every few months) in the staff section of the GDB to highlight very important code changes and game happenings? I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't truly have time to wade into some topics and I need the quick and dirty version of what's going on, simply to be reimmersed and intrigued enough to hop back in.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I was trying to reign in the topic by saying my post was getting a little far off.

But your post makes an interesting point. Maybe the staff aren't interested in impressing veterans, estranged or not. You said it yourself. You just can't find the inspiration to play and there are well loved and respected veterans who don't play. Why are their voices important? You just admitted to not being part of the community. Would it be okay to try and vote in a country you no longer live in? It would make me sad to think that they don't listen, but I'm having a hard time blaming them considering everyone is admitting to being a nonelement. Lol

Is it just me or are there more regulars here who would prefer to play the game GDB rather than Armageddon?

As an aside, personally? I find this "back in my day", "I've been playing for ten+ years so listen here" type attitudes to be a really basic form of gatekeeping and probably a much bigger factor for scaring off newbies than anything aside from the learning curve. The "real fan" mentality is essentially the death nell for every fandom/community.

[boog]

I don't think that anyone is gatekeeping or saying anything is superior. We simply want to be updated with what's going on, because we are a playerbase that is getting older. We want a little more variety than just Allanak and a dusty old Outpost. I think people are allowed to pine. I don't think staff are bending over for any of these wishes, however. But I also think voicing them and the discontent we've experienced, that has kept us away from a game we frequented on a daily basis, might be illuminating for some staff, and other players, who might not think the same way.

Nobody needs to be impressed to play a game. They just have to feel that there's something there for them. And with the limitations that some players feel the game has been strangled with (please note, beyond Tuluk, IDGAF about magickers or classes, though I will say limiting MCs doesn't seem at all conducive since beyond their tedium, they're not hard requests to take care of -- from personal experience as former staff), many players, new and old, might not think there's anything left for them. Maybe there isn't. Maybe a compromise can be made. But we won't know until we discuss it, politely.

[Brokkr]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

[Malken]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

[boog]

Oh. I didn't get that at all, but I wasn't a part of that debate. Maybe we should ask for clarification before assuming it's that. Maybe it is. I dunno.

[Harmless]

I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

Well, probably quite a lot happening that isn't public. The fact that it isn't public probably speaks volumes about roleplayed attitudes in game. I feel like such interactions are incongruent with my understanding of Zalanthan culture. When such attitudes about the game's culture are replicated by staff, I feel disappointed. But, it's also endemic in the playerbase.

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

I would like to point out that these kinds of attitude are what was the greatest let-down in that thread. Shooting down discussion. Not that I wish to bring that topic back up, but just to say that attitudes and posts like this are what was referred to above as a "urge to debate and not discuss" in this community.

[Heade]

I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship.

I admit to making jokes IC that could be taken that way, but only if you're specifically at the ready to defend an agenda, I think. For instance:

1. Making a reference to a person bending over to take it in the ass from a Templar, relating that to how they're grovelling to said Templar. Same exact comment could be made to a male or female, but generally only someone particularly prepared to defend an OOC agenda would take issue with it being said to a male as some sort of slight against homosexuality, imo.

or

2. Making sexual innuendo-styled joke about one guy blowin another guy. Not that anything was wrong with that, just that it was jokingly suggested, such as,

Two guys hanging out at a table, having a moment as one gives the other some sort of gift. They get lost in a happy exchange of pleasantries while the other people at the table were making serious plans. The sergeant speaks up: "A'right, enough! Suck his dick a'ready so we kin git back ta what needs done."

I don't consider that not being accepting of non-hetero relationships, in either case. The same sort of comment could be made if it were a guy and a girl having that discussion, and no one would bat an eye. But because some people are particularly defensive about non-hetero relationships, they might see that same comment as poking fun at it.

Any time there is the possibility of someone either meaning to be offensive, or not meaning to be, I think it's safest just to assume the latter, and keep yourself sane and happy.

[MeTekillot]

It's a casual disregard of tender male friendship via bravado rooted in homophobia.

[Heade]

It's a casual disregard of tender male friendship via bravado rooted in homophobia.

So what is it if the scene is identical, but it's a male and a female? What if the Sergeant is a female, too?

That's bullshit. Sorry, but it is. If treating 2 people interacting the same, regardless of sex and orientation causes someone to immediately jump to feelings of OOC offense, then the problem is with them, not the people around them. Assuming everyone is a homophobe is just as bad, or possibly even worse than BEING the homophobe, because it stymies communication and understanding.

[Harmless]

For the record, I don't think either of your examples are really what concern me regarding homophobia. Because I didn't intend to further derail I think we should save further discussion for another year or decade

In an attempt to salvage the original topic, I do think some fatigue over longrunning arguments like this one which exists between players but also between staff and players (but as I have always said, nearly all staff were and even ARE players), has a lot of vets feeling checked out.

.

[tapas]

When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

[tapas]

I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

Not trying to say this doesn't happen, but honestly, I haven't seen this at all in the last few years I've been playing, with the exception of the occasional openly sexist newbie rocking the tall, muscular physique. I did see it once upon a time in Days of Yore, but the playerbase seems to have matured a lot since then when it comes to their reactions to non-normative relationships.

If it's still being pushed back against, that sucks. To that I say, come back and play characters who react appropriately. More representation can only be a good thing, so that we can continue to push back against OOC prejudices surfacing IG. Ultimately people should be allowed to play what they're comfortable playing as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's fun or somehow go against game rules & documentation.
edited for hopeful clarity.

It comes up in some of the weirdest places and times. Like when a noble tries to explain an enmity between another character   by literally describing them as man hating lesbians. Or when a homosexual couple are described as afraid of dick or vagina.

Most of the time it's just recurrent, weak, cheap shots over any expressed sexuality by some pretty clueless players.

[ghanima]

Man, you guys really need to dial it down with this whole getting your feelings hurt business.

I could have sworn this game took place in a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. How you all gonna inhabit characters in that kind of setting when you're off getting offended over every little thing?

[BadSkeelz]

Man, you guys really need to dial it down with this whole getting your feelings hurt business.

I could have sworn this game took place in a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. How you all gonna inhabit characters in that kind of setting when you're off getting offended over every little thing?

It's just a sign of laziness, of people not truly inhabiting this alien desert world of Zalanthas. Get more invested in the world's flavor, more creative, think differently. Don't just settle for "drop pack, faggot." It's jarring for those who are already inhabiting characters here.

[Cind]

I kind of agree. The only reason I get butthurt over something in the game is because I have bipolar, since pretty much EVERYONE I SEE is a responsible player---- or at least pretending to be under threat of banning. It was only one instance, actually--- my witch elf was (I assume) passed by in the street by a Templar and their entourage and was wayed and charged taxes for existing. I was really sure I had not seen this person, and it got me pretty mad in a way that I expressed in the game and I have always felt bad about it. Once the bipolar fell away I no longer felt like that, but it was kind of too late.

I remember one newbie remarking, how can an elf or a human woman beat a human man in a fight? But they were expressing it in a way that was obviously newbie, as we all know strength is not a factor influenced by gender.

I was involved in a threesome couple with two human males who liked each other (I was a girl, but we were basically a threesome) and the only reason we weren't very obvious about it was the fact that they were both wanted and I myself have terrible playtimes, only really being a reliable game presence when everyone is asleep.

That's pretty much everything I have to contribute because I have literally never remembered outright homophobia or sexism in the game.

[ghanima]

Don't just settle for "drop pack, faggot." It's jarring for those who are already inhabiting characters here.

Has that ever happened in game? Ever?

We have posters demanding that players RP their sexuality more in public and because they're not that's why the game has taken a downward turn.

If the expression of your sexuality is that important, why not pursue that kind of RP on a MUSH which is designed to facilitate these sorts of things? I'm not saying don't do it in Arm, but let's please not pretend that because the rest of us aren't out flaunting our character's (or more than likely our own) sexuality IC that the game is somehow suffering as a result. If everyone wants to publicly express their sexuality in game, great; if no one wants to express their sexuality, that's fine too. Without realising it, you guys are basically saying "I'm being marginalized because the rest of you aren't public enough with your characters sexuality. I demand more of you make your sexual expressions (particularly non-heterosexual expressions) public".

Is any of that really necessary to enjoy a game where we're trying to chop each other up with bone swords? To get back on topic, if anything has truly estranged a veteran, I bet it's the above kind of mindset. Lets stop nitpicking and getting our feelings hurt and get back to a more meaningful discussion.