Half-giant nerf/change suggestions

[MeTekillot]

Yes they do. Dwarves have (citation needed) a single driving focus they pursue at all costs with absolutely no regard for anyone around them. The problem with this, of course, is that most dwarf players just pick some taste of "best fightr" and become best buds with their stock of combat clans of choice, being able to justify whatever they decide to do with the character by sparring a lot and being like "see? trying be best fightr".

Half-giants are supposed to be stupid, disloyal, and unreliable to a fault. In practice, this has resulted in wrecking machines of death who would never ever betray you, their best buddy clanmate of the last ten years, and they pay a little lipservice to the unreliable and stupid bits with "oh i gotta ask my boss first" whenever you try anything with them or try to lure them away into your schemes. Also, they never fuck up when they go out riding with you to take on some bad beasties, when you give them something to deliver, when you give them something to hold onto and watch over with their absolute tank strength and hp. But once in a while there will be a hail mary half-giant player who has to go out of their way to show people they're willing to be fucked over, as every single half-giant the people have interacted with before has been a pillar of incorruptible and unflappable fucking etwo sword.

EDIT: We're branching off-topic. The point of this thread is to suggest or argue against code quirks being added to half-giants in order to forcibly cause them to behave in ways that documentation says they should, as trusting players to do so has been absolute shit show up to this point. I'd be glad to make Yet Another Thread On Why the two most twinked combat races are the most twinked combat races but it's not this thread.

[Delirium]

Update documentation to reflect that players of half-giants are going to want to interact with a crew they like, and don't force them to have absolutely no loyalty whatsoever. That way they can be soldiers, mercenaries, and friends to people without being accused of bad roleplayers. Leave their size, their childish naivete, and their ability to be easily tricked in place. Their lack of subtlety and planning should stay as well.

In essence, keep everything that works about half-giants and fix what doesn't lend itself to players being able to have fun in an otherwise difficult role that requires a lot of patience and interaction.

Then cut half-giant strength in roughly half. They don't need to be as strong as they are.

[Brokkr]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

Not sure where you got a number of 1k HG as the number of total HG in Nak.  Which Game doc?

Ok, having trouble finding the original Doc(it's out there, might be on the old site), but here is a post from a staffer referencing populations that falls more in line with the 100:1 ratio I talked about. Almost exactly 100:1, actually: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52236.msg979946.html#msg979946

So, yeah, 3,800 is the right number for HG in Allanak.  Of those, about 1,000 are in the AoD, which consists of just below 15,000 soldiers.

As far as this whole loyalty thing, AoD NPC HG don't act they way they do out of loyalty.  They act the way they do out of constant, years long amounts of training.

Which is exactly the thing leader PCs in organizations that employee HGs almost without fail don't RP out.

[crymerci]

Yes they do. Dwarves have (citation needed) a single driving focus they pursue at all costs with absolutely no regard for anyone around them. The problem with this, of course, is that most dwarf players just pick some taste of "best fightr" and become best buds with their stock of combat clans of choice, being able to justify whatever they decide to do with the character by sparring a lot and being like "see? trying be best fightr".

That's not a problem, it's completely consistent with the dwarven docs and sample foci provided. That's why I said it's not an inherent source of conflict, because that is down to the individual player's choices of focus and means of achieving it.

Half-giants are supposed to be stupid, disloyal, and unreliable to a fault. In practice, this has resulted in wrecking machines of death who would never ever betray you, their best buddy clanmate of the last ten years, and they pay a little lipservice to the unreliable and stupid bits with "oh i gotta ask my boss first" whenever you try anything with them or try to lure them away into your schemes. Also, they never fuck up when they go out riding with you to take on some bad beasties, when you give them something to deliver, when you give them something to hold onto and watch over with their absolute tank strength and hp. But once in a while there will be a hail mary half-giant player who has to go out of their way to show people they're willing to be fucked over, as every single half-giant the people have interacted with before has been a pillar of incorruptible and unflappable fucking etwo sword.

This is an issue of which part of the documents various players place emphasis on. The docs also state that HGs imitate their friends. If your PC is having trouble corrupting a clanned HG maybe it's because they have 10 friends influencing them against just you.

EDIT: We're branching off-topic. The point of this thread is to suggest or argue against code quirks being added to half-giants in order to forcibly cause them to behave in ways that documentation says they should, as trusting players to do so has been absolute shit show up to this point. I'd be glad to make Yet Another Thread On Why the two most twinked combat races are the most twinked combat races but it's not this thread.

I think "an absolute shit show" is pretty demeaning to the many people who have played HGs over the years. Unless you're on staff or have been playing a psionicist the whole time, you don't know the whole story of the characters. So, alienating the people who have the most experience to offer in this discussion is at the very least, self-defeating.

I like the idea of HGs having difficulty interacting with merchants, as long as it's not applied to tailors.

[Medena]

From "half-giant roleplay" docs:

Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbours), depending on the circumstances. Half-giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

I would urge people to re-read the docs.  Nowhere does it say that HG's are disloyal.  It says they are able to switch loyalties.  It doesn't say that they do so all the time.  It doesn't say that they must do so all the time.

Yes HG's are stupid.  But there are different indices of intelligence or, conversely, stupidity.  HG's may not be capable of problem-solving, multi-tasking, critical thought, etc etc but they have enough intelligence to communicate and speak good sirihish.  I just don't believe that they are so dumb and non-functional that they would forget that they are guarding someone in the middle of a battle or that they'd constantly lose things.

HG's are always criticized on the GDB as being nothing more than meat shields / killing machines.  I think the changes proposed would absolutely ensure that they'd always be played as that for they would not be able to fulfill any other role.  HG's aren't so easy to play as people may think.  Strength is overrated when you can't actually HIT anything. 

About 10 years ago, I had a HG (my one and only) who was a bit outside the box:  not a warrior with everything rolled up to max strength but a young (too young) ranger/bard.  She was damn hard to play at first.  She didn't have the coins to buy a mount, couldn't hit anything at all because of low agility, couldn't use a bow and on and on.  I hung in with the PC and she was one of my favourite PC's ever but I nearly stored her after a few weeks.

[Feco]

.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

I agree.

[Flea]

.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

I agree.

+1

The suggestions for coded quirks are incredibly stifling. If they're meant to be a small detriment to players who abuse the role, they're doubly punishing to those who make an effort to follow the documentation.

That said, I've seen and interacted with a number of well-played half-giants over the past year alone. It's worth remembering that there's more nuance to the half-giant mindset than just 'stupidity'. What might seem like an overly smart action for a half-giant might be a learned behavior.

[Heade]

So, yeah, 3,800 is the right number for HG in Allanak.  Of those, about 1,000 are in the AoD, which consists of just below 15,000 soldiers.

So, 15,000 soldiers are responsible for keeping a city with half a million people in check in a low-tech environment? That sounds pretty light. I'd heard estimates before that put the ratio of soldiers to citizens in Allanak closer to 1:5, where those numbers would put them closer to 1:33.

It just seems like, with a single large-scale rebellion, the entire system would fall apart under those numbers, but staff has never allowed RP that would be indicative of such a power disparity. In contrast, it has always been portrayed that Allanak has such a massive, robust power stranglehold on the people that subversive activity is easily stamped out without mercy because of the massive power of Allanaki forces.

[Ender]

Which is exactly the thing leader PCs in organizations that employee HGs almost without fail don't RP out.

So, this is a real problem.  HGs have similar capabilities as muls and magickers to be utterly destructive tools for clans to utilize, but on the whole lack the role-playing restrictions associated those types of PCs.  Yes, those restrictions do exist in the documentation, but we all have seen them basically ignored by both HG players and clan leaders wanting to make use of them.

My point earlier about the HG soldier NPCs is that when a player sees those NPCs without the story associated with the amount of trouble and tireless training that goes into maintaining them, they see "oh HG soldiers are common." not "Oh, they put in a huge amount of effort raising these HGs from birth to ensure they are loyal."

[Delirium]

subversive activity is easily stamped out without mercy because of the massive power of Allanaki

Templars. The word you are looking for is "Templars".

A single Red Robe could probably kill hundreds of people in a single go.

I also don't think, after years of famine and warfare, the population is as high as those original numbers you're quoting.

[Heade]

I also don't think, after years of famine and warfare, the population is as high as those original numbers you're quoting.

I don't think we've been given any indication that population levels have drastically fallen. People still reproduce and have babies to replace the dead. Those population levels were ALSO after hundreds of years of conflict and famine. Unless I get information in the form of Docs or direct release of story from staff indicating a population change, I'm going to assume the status quo remains the same.

[Delirium]

Dude, as I recall it, those numbers came from a decades-old GDB post by Sanvean, not documentation.

I really don't think we can hold it up and wave it around like it's unchangeable rock solid fact in today's game.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Has anyone considered that if these characters are so wildly difficult to properly RP that maybe they should be changed or removed entirely? Wasn't that the problem with mantis and gith (as well as various other unique spec app junk)?

[Veselka]

I would shed no tears for the loss of half Giants.

But I would want kanks to come back.

Playable kanks.

[MeTekillot]

Bad half giant play irks me but I don't support the further erosion of player available choice and power.

[gotdamnmiracle]

It's so silly that the sentiment for many players is to abide a problematic and badly RPed entire race because they have this loss trauma after halfling, gith, mantis, full magick, elkros, drovian, nilaz, full sorcery, guilds, and an entire city along with all the nobility and Templar guilds related to that were removed.

Is there not some option to change or even remove the HG and reopen one of these many things, new and improved? Honestly, I wish there was a sort of revolving door attitude to races and such IG. Reopen the mantis for a few months, suddenly it's Nak versus the mantises, then move on to something else. Each time the playerbase would leap to participate because that's what's happened with each subsequent change or special opening.

[Vex]

Automate half-giant and other "problem" race PCs, to be under the purview/snoop/sniff of staff, at all times.

Prioritize enforcing documents, for elves, half-elves, dwarves and half-giants, at a staff level. Not so-and-so is in clan X, so only staff X can adjudicate and act on the issues. Let it fall under a broad spectrum of eyes, and time zones, if this is not the case already.

Karma, flawed a system as it is, should not only be a one way street to superior pc powers, but also come with higher standards and expectations. I wonder, to myself, how some people manage to get their hands on the options they have, with how, tbh, out of sync they are with the docs, and the world. The failure is obvious, and often consistent and intentional. I don't know how, it goes overlooked, so often.

Communicate the failings to players, in courteous but firm directions. If there is no improvement, it is reasonable that karma be deducted, or a special allowance pc, be stored. Karma should be MUCH easier to lose, than to gain, with the caveat, that infractions not be permanent black marks that present indefinite barriers to future karma. Reintroduce the stick, to carrot and stick.

It was VERY difficult, to understand the racial interactions, as a new player. I read the docs, but what is enacted in the game is completely different. My first real interview with witchery as example, was some krathi, in the Gaj, emoting throwing fire around and menacing people... and then sat back down, at the bar, and laughed it up with some AoD pc soldiers. WTF, is that shit? And these are players, trusted with OHK spells, and crimcode immunity.

At least half-giants, come with some basic stat handicaps that take lots of time to overcome. A witch, is much quicker to power up. Dwarves, need only afford a massive club to etwo, and are perfectly capable, of destroying people.

Half-giants are, imo, the least offensive offenders, when it comes to poor adherence to documentation, and I perceive no reason to remove, up karma reqs, or impose petty code (waste of coder time), when there are much more common offenders running around.

A code fix, or merely upping the karma requirements, are very petty solutions to singular instances, of a much wider spread problem, imo.

[Inky]

Strength really just needs to be tweaked.

The alt forums basically laid out the why of it. But apparently the scaling follows some sort of bonkers exponential curve.

And everyone kind of already knew that strength was the king of stats anyways. But hopefully now, staff will do something about it.

[CodeMaster]

If you're a half-giant player who feels put on the spot by this thread, don't feel bad.  You were probably following other players' bad examples.  And not just half-giants.  Everyone.  We can all work to improve.

For example, leaders can do better IMO.  It is tempting to let OOC influence IC and ask the half-giant (i.e. the more experienced player) to lead.  I've watched this happen.  And OOC, this makes sense -- half-giants are usually played by experienced players who know how to travel and lead.  But let's try to treat the half-giant like a half-giant, for everyone's sake.  IC, it makes more sense to tell the obvious OOC newbie to keep an eye on the half-giant than the opposite.  Really!

Aside: I've seen it suggested in this thread(?) that disloyalty will limit roleplay options, because it will be harder to join clans.  But I feel it's the opposite -- now a half-giant can play with anyone, roaming from one place to the next, interacting with the new players who don't know where the bazaar is or how to "get to the desert".  You can travel anywhere, without restriction, to the most populous places in the game.

I think thre's still a place for half-giants in the game.  Not as scooby-doo lifelong companions, but as a challenging and interesting roleplay option that may well merit 3 karma or a special application.

[Hauwke]

After playing a HG for awhile and honestly doing a fairly poor job of it in the end, I said to myself: I wont do this again.

But after awhile of thinking on it, I do want to try it again. The mindset is fun and if I stuck to actually being stupid, I feel like it would be far more fun.

[Vex]

After playing a HG for awhile and honestly doing a fairly poor job of it in the end, I said to myself: I wont do this again.

I liked your giant.

[Synthesis]

I feel like most of the ploys I've seen used to influence HGs are pretty stupid and transparent.

Like...to the point that even a child wouldn't be impressed.  Maaaaybe y'all just need to upgrade your schemin' game and stop expecting easy results.

[Cind]

I'm agreeing with Synthesis. For example, a plot by a little to get a giant to buy a 'magick cup.' People forget, for a clanned giant, most of their early money has to go to the armor tailor or to seeking a weapon that actually fits in their hand, and "Hey, but magick is bad." This one would be hard to forget, especially as I've seen giants get all scared at the thought of magick. Its the or one of the few things they have the brains to fear.

[AdamBlue]

Code-wise, leave half-giants as they are. They should be stupidly strong, stupidly tough, and stupidly dumb. They're fine.

Change the docs slightly to reflect that after literally years and years of indoctrination, half-giants have been TAUGHT to be loyal within cities, but are prone to bouts of childish tantrums, since they develop slower mentally, but develop faster physically. Less dangerous than mul rage, but certainly a hassle when you're having to baby something ten times bigger than you.
Wild (tribal, nomad) half-giants should retain this wild-child, original document lack of trust since they've never been 'trained'.

If you -must- add some kind of code change, make it so that half-giants lack the ability to order NPCs, thus making them poor leaders of clans. Detract slightly from their cap on direction-sense to make them poorer navigators.  Make it so that shields have to be a certain size, or they don't function properly as shields for half-giants.

Half-giants exist to be the brute force solution to problems, which are sometimes necessary on Zalanthas. Sure, you can take down a Mek. It requires planning, shield-wall rotations, maybe even a gemmed to ensure if someone is injured they can get out properly.
Or, you can bring a couple of half-giants.
Half-giants cost a lot. They are an investment. If you see a half-giant, you're thinking, 'by god, this is the back up, this is the emergency tool'. They take twice as long to train than a regular soldier, and are twice as unreliable, while being four times as effective. They make big targets. Hell, you can't even drag them to safety or pick up their freaking corpse if they die.
Being a half-giant means you're too stupid to say 'no'. You're the meat shield. You're the one that walks into the room that screams 'if you walk into this room, you die'. You have to roleplay being blissfully unaware while as a player you're screaming at the top of your lungs mentally that you're about to lose this half-giant that you spent twice as much time developing than anyone because they're too dumb to have any kind of self preservation instinct.

You get to have some fun, sure. All of the fun is combat related, however. You don't get to make any works of art. You don't get to make any stories, or sing any songs of note. You'll never be the best crafter of something. As a half-giant, your life is always on the line because you were bred to fucking kill stuff good and dead and not ask any questions. You'll never be a clan leader. No one will involve you in politicks.

In the world of Zalanthas, there is Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal. Half-giants lose out on the latter two while being extremely good at the first. Consider this before you want to 'nerf' half-giants.

[Dar]

As a half-giant, your life is always on the line because you were bred to fucking kill stuff good and dead and not ask any questions. You'll never be a clan leader. No one will involve you in politicks.

Oh, there'll be questions. Lots of questions. Loooooots of questions. He might just not understand the answers.


I'm sorry, Adam. But I personally see HGs as very different then how you see them. You're describing more Muls, then HGs. The concept of HG not trusting anybody, goes against 'everything' that I imagine an HG to be. I actually doubt that there 'is' any such thing as a 'tribal' HG. Or at least it shouldnt be. A mary sue situation could happen of a tribe finding an HG child and bringing them up, but a tribe of HGs? I do not think that is within the docs.

Personally, I would imagine places like Red Storm and Tribes would abhor Half Giants. Due to their absolute lack of tribal mindset, intense curiosity, lack of street smarts, and vulnerability to the indoctrination that the big cities are known and hated for.