Half-giant nerf/change suggestions

[MeTekillot]

Half-giants, in my experience, are not roleplayed as infamously stupid (most of the time). I don't want to call anyone out, if you think you're playing your giant's stupidity well then assume I'm not talking about you, but I think life could stand to be made a little harder for them and their erstwhile companions with a few code quirks here and there. As such:

Forgetfulness: half-giants, based on a wisdom check, could randomly lose an item from their inventory to signify them setting it down and promptly forgetting about it. They would not receive an echo about the item leaving their inventory.

I made a previous thread about half-giants not being able to accurately manipulate sums of coin higher than fifty at merchants, in their inventory, or when transferring to other players.

Based on a wisdom check at random, half-giants could stop guarding, stop following, stop watching, stop scanning, or stop listening (or perhaps combinations of the above) to signify their idiocy affecting their attention span.

When they enter combat (and during combat), half-giants should switch mercy status at random, with no prompt given to the player that this has happened.

There should be a significant bonus to any attempts to steal from a half-giant to signify their trusting nature.

Feel free to combat or support my suggestions in the thread, or offer some of your own.

Also have the half-giant NPC soldiers reduced to 1/10th of what there are currently please god

[Heade]

I think a couple of these would be good ideas, whereas others I think we have to consider playability, here. That said, here's what I think of your suggestions:

Forgetfulness: half-giants, based on a wisdom check, could randomly lose an item from their inventory to signify them setting it down and promptly forgetting about it. They would not receive an echo about the item leaving their inventory.

No: We need to allow players to have agency here. I like where you're going with this, and were I to play a half-giant I may very well trade my super-awesome armguard for a shiny rock, thus resulting in a similar outcome to your suggestion. But I'd like to leave the door open to players to determine what's important to their half-giant. One half-giant, for instance, may ALWAYS carry a ragdoll in their inventory that they play with, that they'd never ICly forget because it's so central to their characters desires, but the code would take the ability to do that away from them.

I made a previous thread about half-giants not being able to accurately manipulate sums of coin higher than fifty at merchants, in their inventory, or when transferring to other players.

Yes: I could support something along these lines, though it wouldn't be exactly as you worded it.

Based on a wisdom check at random, half-giants could stop guarding, stop following, stop watching, stop scanning, or stop listening (or perhaps combinations of the above) to signify their idiocy affecting their attention span.

No: Too many playability issues that effect other players. Having a half-giant stop following 10 times on a trip from Allanak to Morin's would be extremely cumbersome.

When they enter combat (and during combat), half-giants should switch mercy status at random, with no prompt given to the player that this has happened.

Super No: Massive playability issue. HG are already very likely to accidentally kill a sparring partner. Making that more likely isn't something that would add to the game.

There should be a significant bonus to any attempts to steal from a half-giant to signify their trusting nature.

Yes: I fully support this, if it isn't already the case.

Also have the half-giant NPC soldiers reduced to 1/10th of what there are currently please god

Yes: I fully support this, their numbers should more accurately reflect their rarity. 1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers. Regular soldiers replacing HG's could be represented in a single NPC "squad" entity of 5 soldiers, which would be the power equivalent to 1 HG. So nothing would change mechanically at all here, only thematically. Basically, staff would just be "reskinning" HG's to appear as squads of 5 generic human soldiers.

[MeTekillot]

To be fair, I think it should be extremely cumbersome to bring along what is essentially an enormous child who is supernaturally strong and supernaturally stupid. The only coded roadblock giants seem to face in clans is 'needs an inix' if it's not a human-only clan.

[Veselka]

There are a crazy amount of half-giant soldiers in Allanak, sometimes four in one room. I'd be totally fine with more human soldier presence, if they were spaced out and all patrolled (except for the ones guarding gates and the like). As it is, they will sometimes be in static positions for many IG weeks on end.

[Brokkr]

One half-giant, for instance, may ALWAYS carry a ragdoll in their inventory that they play with, that they'd never ICly forget because it's so central to their characters desires,

Huge red flag that the player of that HG does not understand HG mentality, and is instead copying bad PC HG behavior they have seen in the past.

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

[Heade]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

[cal]

HG are born.

[Brokkr]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

Not sure where you got a number of 1k HG as the number of total HG in Nak.  Which Game doc?

[Delirium]

Pretty sure half-giants are bred not created by some sort of arcane ritual. Long ago in the way distant past the original half-giants were created by magick, but since then it has seemed pretty obvious that they are just bred with each other. Maybe that is an area where the documentation could use some clarifying.

[Heade]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

Not sure where you got a number of 1k HG as the number of total HG in Nak.  Which Game doc?

Ok, having trouble finding the original Doc(it's out there, might be on the old site), but here is a post from a staffer referencing populations that falls more in line with the 100:1 ratio I talked about. Almost exactly 100:1, actually: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52236.msg979946.html#msg979946

[Dar]

I never did get a good answer on that thread you quoted.

But yeah, if there are less then 500,000 people in Allanak. How much of it needs to be in the AoD?

some theorize that there can be 1 soldier in the retinue per 15 peasants. But those soldiers usually did other things as well.  But do those 500,000 people even include peasantry? Or only city dwellers.

[Delirium]

Not that this has any real weight in the discussion but a medieval armies were generally in the range of 10,000 to 40,000 people.

(source: quick google search)

[Heade]

Not that this has any real weight in the discussion but a medieval armies were generally in the range of 10,000 to 40,000 people.

(source: quick google search)

Yeah, there are docs somewhere that outline populations and how much of that population is a part of the allanaki military. But with 25 years of lore spread around over 2 websites, and data loss that has occurred, it's difficult to track down.

I think taking time to compile all that lore into some sort of single location would be a worthwhile endeavor. There are a lot of lost gems out there.

[number13]

OG half-gaints (in dark sun) were created by magic, but the current population breeds true with each other.

They aren't as stupid nor quite as strong as the Armageddon versions. They change alignment each morning, to reflect whoever they think the leader to emulate. Dark Sun HGs have almost no loyalty -- it takes just a day to 'reprogram' them to your cause.

Rather than being crushingly stupid, HGs should being mostly stupid, with loyalties that shift very easily. 

[Feco]

OG half-gaints (in dark sun) were created by magic, but the current population breeds true with each other.

They aren't as stupid nor quite as strong as the Armageddon versions. They change alignment each morning, to reflect whoever they think the leader to emulate. Dark Sun HGs have almost no loyalty -- it takes just a day to 'reprogram' them to your cause.

Rather than being crushingly stupid, HGs should being mostly stupid, with loyalties that shift very easily.

That's how half-giants are described in the docs:

Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbours), depending on the circumstances. Half-giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

They just aren't played that way.  They often seem loyal to a fault due to their stupidity, which is really not how it's supposed to be.

[Ender]

They just aren't played that way.  They often seem loyal to a fault due to their stupidity, which is really not how it's supposed to be.

Part of the problem is the gameworld NPCs not matching up with this either.  When a player in game sees tons of NPC Half-giant soldiers they will think "soldier is a viable role for a HG" when in reality the shifting loyalties of a HG should make being an effective soldier almost impossible for most of them.

I hate to say it, but I've seen many more HG PCs played poorly than played well over the years.  The coded advantages that HGs have make them rife for abuse, and seeing that abuse first hand over the years has been really disappointing.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

[MeTekillot]

I agree with Ender's suggestion and assessment of most HGs being played badly but still think there should be code quirks to remind people HGs are FUCKING DUMB. The coin thing, at least.

[Heade]

I hate to say it, but I've seen many more HG PCs played poorly than played well over the years.  The coded advantages that HGs have make them rife for abuse, and seeing that abuse first hand over the years has been really disappointing.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

I'd agree with this. I've never seen appeal in playing a HG, so I never have tried one. Still wouldn't mind seeing them go the way of the kank, though other players might not share that feeling. I think making them more rare via CGP cost would go a long way towards seeing that players who are trusted to play them appropriately are the ones playing them.

[only_plays_tribals]

Personally I think the caveat of HG's are so dumb they can't be loyal is a terrible design flaw in HG's.

I could understand so dumb they can be tricked or mislead or forgetful, but the entire concept of a character too stupid to think for themselves... that also is barred from making stable friendships ...in a roleplaying game?

Every NPC half giant in the world is played badly. They should randomly quit their jobs, wander off into the wilds, and release prisoners if they had to drag them more than five tiles because they 'forgot', I should also be able to lure one from the gates with a shiny string.

They have to all be born in captivity. Wild animals are smarter than half-giant roleplay is defined and I suspect that's why people drift from the docs.

You may as well let us play gortoks with speech. But even gortoks have family packs so....

(edited to rant more)

[MeTekillot]

It's not like anyone actually roleplays their documentation flaws so I don't understand your complaint. Ideally, hiring a half giant should have a trade off of micromanaging the fact that they're a mentay disabled person with the strength of ten men. The current reality is "AWWWWW YISSS, MEK HUNTING TIME" and they stay in the clan with absolutely no problems arising from their idiocy (besides low success rates with barrier and slightly slower skill progression) for however long until the player stores from being bored of being immensely rich and successful from dominating the local cash cow big beasties with their clannies.

[MeTekillot]

I'd be fine with NPC half giants being sble to be manipulated by 'offer'ing them toys/weapons/candy, actually, I like that idea, too. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Inky]

Honestly. The racial documentation is pretty bad for all the races. They were written 20+ years ago and barely reflect the actual in game reality of playing and interacting with these races.

[MeTekillot]

Not really the tack I was expecting someone to take but points for originality.

[Derain]

Honestly I can agree I have seen some very smart Half giants recently who constantly say ok let me ask bob every time anyone talks to them. But I honestly don't feel like it matters enough to waste time coding a bunch of flaws when they already have to pay out the ass to tailor any piece of armor. I would however not mind seeing barter attempts on HGs make the price of things go UP.

[crymerci]

Honestly. The racial documentation is pretty bad for all the races. They were written 20+ years ago and barely reflect the actual in game reality of playing and interacting with these races.

I agree that there could be more documentation about how other people might see HGs. As documented, neither HGs nor Dwarves have a strong inherent racial-conflict hook, unlike the rest of the playable races, who all hate/fear each other.

[MeTekillot]

Yes they do. Dwarves have (citation needed) a single driving focus they pursue at all costs with absolutely no regard for anyone around them. The problem with this, of course, is that most dwarf players just pick some taste of "best fightr" and become best buds with their stock of combat clans of choice, being able to justify whatever they decide to do with the character by sparring a lot and being like "see? trying be best fightr".

Half-giants are supposed to be stupid, disloyal, and unreliable to a fault. In practice, this has resulted in wrecking machines of death who would never ever betray you, their best buddy clanmate of the last ten years, and they pay a little lipservice to the unreliable and stupid bits with "oh i gotta ask my boss first" whenever you try anything with them or try to lure them away into your schemes. Also, they never fuck up when they go out riding with you to take on some bad beasties, when you give them something to deliver, when you give them something to hold onto and watch over with their absolute tank strength and hp. But once in a while there will be a hail mary half-giant player who has to go out of their way to show people they're willing to be fucked over, as every single half-giant the people have interacted with before has been a pillar of incorruptible and unflappable fucking etwo sword.

EDIT: We're branching off-topic. The point of this thread is to suggest or argue against code quirks being added to half-giants in order to forcibly cause them to behave in ways that documentation says they should, as trusting players to do so has been absolute shit show up to this point. I'd be glad to make Yet Another Thread On Why the two most twinked combat races are the most twinked combat races but it's not this thread.

[Delirium]

Update documentation to reflect that players of half-giants are going to want to interact with a crew they like, and don't force them to have absolutely no loyalty whatsoever. That way they can be soldiers, mercenaries, and friends to people without being accused of bad roleplayers. Leave their size, their childish naivete, and their ability to be easily tricked in place. Their lack of subtlety and planning should stay as well.

In essence, keep everything that works about half-giants and fix what doesn't lend itself to players being able to have fun in an otherwise difficult role that requires a lot of patience and interaction.

Then cut half-giant strength in roughly half. They don't need to be as strong as they are.

[Brokkr]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

Not sure where you got a number of 1k HG as the number of total HG in Nak.  Which Game doc?

Ok, having trouble finding the original Doc(it's out there, might be on the old site), but here is a post from a staffer referencing populations that falls more in line with the 100:1 ratio I talked about. Almost exactly 100:1, actually: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52236.msg979946.html#msg979946

So, yeah, 3,800 is the right number for HG in Allanak.  Of those, about 1,000 are in the AoD, which consists of just below 15,000 soldiers.

As far as this whole loyalty thing, AoD NPC HG don't act they way they do out of loyalty.  They act the way they do out of constant, years long amounts of training.

Which is exactly the thing leader PCs in organizations that employee HGs almost without fail don't RP out.

[crymerci]

Yes they do. Dwarves have (citation needed) a single driving focus they pursue at all costs with absolutely no regard for anyone around them. The problem with this, of course, is that most dwarf players just pick some taste of "best fightr" and become best buds with their stock of combat clans of choice, being able to justify whatever they decide to do with the character by sparring a lot and being like "see? trying be best fightr".

That's not a problem, it's completely consistent with the dwarven docs and sample foci provided. That's why I said it's not an inherent source of conflict, because that is down to the individual player's choices of focus and means of achieving it.

Half-giants are supposed to be stupid, disloyal, and unreliable to a fault. In practice, this has resulted in wrecking machines of death who would never ever betray you, their best buddy clanmate of the last ten years, and they pay a little lipservice to the unreliable and stupid bits with "oh i gotta ask my boss first" whenever you try anything with them or try to lure them away into your schemes. Also, they never fuck up when they go out riding with you to take on some bad beasties, when you give them something to deliver, when you give them something to hold onto and watch over with their absolute tank strength and hp. But once in a while there will be a hail mary half-giant player who has to go out of their way to show people they're willing to be fucked over, as every single half-giant the people have interacted with before has been a pillar of incorruptible and unflappable fucking etwo sword.

This is an issue of which part of the documents various players place emphasis on. The docs also state that HGs imitate their friends. If your PC is having trouble corrupting a clanned HG maybe it's because they have 10 friends influencing them against just you.

EDIT: We're branching off-topic. The point of this thread is to suggest or argue against code quirks being added to half-giants in order to forcibly cause them to behave in ways that documentation says they should, as trusting players to do so has been absolute shit show up to this point. I'd be glad to make Yet Another Thread On Why the two most twinked combat races are the most twinked combat races but it's not this thread.

I think "an absolute shit show" is pretty demeaning to the many people who have played HGs over the years. Unless you're on staff or have been playing a psionicist the whole time, you don't know the whole story of the characters. So, alienating the people who have the most experience to offer in this discussion is at the very least, self-defeating.

I like the idea of HGs having difficulty interacting with merchants, as long as it's not applied to tailors.

[Medena]

From "half-giant roleplay" docs:

Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbours), depending on the circumstances. Half-giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

I would urge people to re-read the docs.  Nowhere does it say that HG's are disloyal.  It says they are able to switch loyalties.  It doesn't say that they do so all the time.  It doesn't say that they must do so all the time.

Yes HG's are stupid.  But there are different indices of intelligence or, conversely, stupidity.  HG's may not be capable of problem-solving, multi-tasking, critical thought, etc etc but they have enough intelligence to communicate and speak good sirihish.  I just don't believe that they are so dumb and non-functional that they would forget that they are guarding someone in the middle of a battle or that they'd constantly lose things.

HG's are always criticized on the GDB as being nothing more than meat shields / killing machines.  I think the changes proposed would absolutely ensure that they'd always be played as that for they would not be able to fulfill any other role.  HG's aren't so easy to play as people may think.  Strength is overrated when you can't actually HIT anything. 

About 10 years ago, I had a HG (my one and only) who was a bit outside the box:  not a warrior with everything rolled up to max strength but a young (too young) ranger/bard.  She was damn hard to play at first.  She didn't have the coins to buy a mount, couldn't hit anything at all because of low agility, couldn't use a bow and on and on.  I hung in with the PC and she was one of my favourite PC's ever but I nearly stored her after a few weeks.

[Feco]

.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

I agree.

[Flea]

.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

I agree.

+1

The suggestions for coded quirks are incredibly stifling. If they're meant to be a small detriment to players who abuse the role, they're doubly punishing to those who make an effort to follow the documentation.

That said, I've seen and interacted with a number of well-played half-giants over the past year alone. It's worth remembering that there's more nuance to the half-giant mindset than just 'stupidity'. What might seem like an overly smart action for a half-giant might be a learned behavior.

[Heade]

So, yeah, 3,800 is the right number for HG in Allanak.  Of those, about 1,000 are in the AoD, which consists of just below 15,000 soldiers.

So, 15,000 soldiers are responsible for keeping a city with half a million people in check in a low-tech environment? That sounds pretty light. I'd heard estimates before that put the ratio of soldiers to citizens in Allanak closer to 1:5, where those numbers would put them closer to 1:33.

It just seems like, with a single large-scale rebellion, the entire system would fall apart under those numbers, but staff has never allowed RP that would be indicative of such a power disparity. In contrast, it has always been portrayed that Allanak has such a massive, robust power stranglehold on the people that subversive activity is easily stamped out without mercy because of the massive power of Allanaki forces.

[Ender]

Which is exactly the thing leader PCs in organizations that employee HGs almost without fail don't RP out.

So, this is a real problem.  HGs have similar capabilities as muls and magickers to be utterly destructive tools for clans to utilize, but on the whole lack the role-playing restrictions associated those types of PCs.  Yes, those restrictions do exist in the documentation, but we all have seen them basically ignored by both HG players and clan leaders wanting to make use of them.

My point earlier about the HG soldier NPCs is that when a player sees those NPCs without the story associated with the amount of trouble and tireless training that goes into maintaining them, they see "oh HG soldiers are common." not "Oh, they put in a huge amount of effort raising these HGs from birth to ensure they are loyal."

[Delirium]

subversive activity is easily stamped out without mercy because of the massive power of Allanaki

Templars. The word you are looking for is "Templars".

A single Red Robe could probably kill hundreds of people in a single go.

I also don't think, after years of famine and warfare, the population is as high as those original numbers you're quoting.

[Heade]

I also don't think, after years of famine and warfare, the population is as high as those original numbers you're quoting.

I don't think we've been given any indication that population levels have drastically fallen. People still reproduce and have babies to replace the dead. Those population levels were ALSO after hundreds of years of conflict and famine. Unless I get information in the form of Docs or direct release of story from staff indicating a population change, I'm going to assume the status quo remains the same.

[Delirium]

Dude, as I recall it, those numbers came from a decades-old GDB post by Sanvean, not documentation.

I really don't think we can hold it up and wave it around like it's unchangeable rock solid fact in today's game.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Has anyone considered that if these characters are so wildly difficult to properly RP that maybe they should be changed or removed entirely? Wasn't that the problem with mantis and gith (as well as various other unique spec app junk)?

[Veselka]

I would shed no tears for the loss of half Giants.

But I would want kanks to come back.

Playable kanks.

[MeTekillot]

Bad half giant play irks me but I don't support the further erosion of player available choice and power.

[gotdamnmiracle]

It's so silly that the sentiment for many players is to abide a problematic and badly RPed entire race because they have this loss trauma after halfling, gith, mantis, full magick, elkros, drovian, nilaz, full sorcery, guilds, and an entire city along with all the nobility and Templar guilds related to that were removed.

Is there not some option to change or even remove the HG and reopen one of these many things, new and improved? Honestly, I wish there was a sort of revolving door attitude to races and such IG. Reopen the mantis for a few months, suddenly it's Nak versus the mantises, then move on to something else. Each time the playerbase would leap to participate because that's what's happened with each subsequent change or special opening.

[Vex]

Automate half-giant and other "problem" race PCs, to be under the purview/snoop/sniff of staff, at all times.

Prioritize enforcing documents, for elves, half-elves, dwarves and half-giants, at a staff level. Not so-and-so is in clan X, so only staff X can adjudicate and act on the issues. Let it fall under a broad spectrum of eyes, and time zones, if this is not the case already.

Karma, flawed a system as it is, should not only be a one way street to superior pc powers, but also come with higher standards and expectations. I wonder, to myself, how some people manage to get their hands on the options they have, with how, tbh, out of sync they are with the docs, and the world. The failure is obvious, and often consistent and intentional. I don't know how, it goes overlooked, so often.

Communicate the failings to players, in courteous but firm directions. If there is no improvement, it is reasonable that karma be deducted, or a special allowance pc, be stored. Karma should be MUCH easier to lose, than to gain, with the caveat, that infractions not be permanent black marks that present indefinite barriers to future karma. Reintroduce the stick, to carrot and stick.

It was VERY difficult, to understand the racial interactions, as a new player. I read the docs, but what is enacted in the game is completely different. My first real interview with witchery as example, was some krathi, in the Gaj, emoting throwing fire around and menacing people... and then sat back down, at the bar, and laughed it up with some AoD pc soldiers. WTF, is that shit? And these are players, trusted with OHK spells, and crimcode immunity.

At least half-giants, come with some basic stat handicaps that take lots of time to overcome. A witch, is much quicker to power up. Dwarves, need only afford a massive club to etwo, and are perfectly capable, of destroying people.

Half-giants are, imo, the least offensive offenders, when it comes to poor adherence to documentation, and I perceive no reason to remove, up karma reqs, or impose petty code (waste of coder time), when there are much more common offenders running around.

A code fix, or merely upping the karma requirements, are very petty solutions to singular instances, of a much wider spread problem, imo.

[Inky]

Strength really just needs to be tweaked.

The alt forums basically laid out the why of it. But apparently the scaling follows some sort of bonkers exponential curve.

And everyone kind of already knew that strength was the king of stats anyways. But hopefully now, staff will do something about it.

[CodeMaster]

If you're a half-giant player who feels put on the spot by this thread, don't feel bad.  You were probably following other players' bad examples.  And not just half-giants.  Everyone.  We can all work to improve.

For example, leaders can do better IMO.  It is tempting to let OOC influence IC and ask the half-giant (i.e. the more experienced player) to lead.  I've watched this happen.  And OOC, this makes sense -- half-giants are usually played by experienced players who know how to travel and lead.  But let's try to treat the half-giant like a half-giant, for everyone's sake.  IC, it makes more sense to tell the obvious OOC newbie to keep an eye on the half-giant than the opposite.  Really!

Aside: I've seen it suggested in this thread(?) that disloyalty will limit roleplay options, because it will be harder to join clans.  But I feel it's the opposite -- now a half-giant can play with anyone, roaming from one place to the next, interacting with the new players who don't know where the bazaar is or how to "get to the desert".  You can travel anywhere, without restriction, to the most populous places in the game.

I think thre's still a place for half-giants in the game.  Not as scooby-doo lifelong companions, but as a challenging and interesting roleplay option that may well merit 3 karma or a special application.

[Hauwke]

After playing a HG for awhile and honestly doing a fairly poor job of it in the end, I said to myself: I wont do this again.

But after awhile of thinking on it, I do want to try it again. The mindset is fun and if I stuck to actually being stupid, I feel like it would be far more fun.

[Vex]

After playing a HG for awhile and honestly doing a fairly poor job of it in the end, I said to myself: I wont do this again.

I liked your giant.

[Synthesis]

I feel like most of the ploys I've seen used to influence HGs are pretty stupid and transparent.

Like...to the point that even a child wouldn't be impressed.  Maaaaybe y'all just need to upgrade your schemin' game and stop expecting easy results.

[Cind]

I'm agreeing with Synthesis. For example, a plot by a little to get a giant to buy a 'magick cup.' People forget, for a clanned giant, most of their early money has to go to the armor tailor or to seeking a weapon that actually fits in their hand, and "Hey, but magick is bad." This one would be hard to forget, especially as I've seen giants get all scared at the thought of magick. Its the or one of the few things they have the brains to fear.

[AdamBlue]

Code-wise, leave half-giants as they are. They should be stupidly strong, stupidly tough, and stupidly dumb. They're fine.

Change the docs slightly to reflect that after literally years and years of indoctrination, half-giants have been TAUGHT to be loyal within cities, but are prone to bouts of childish tantrums, since they develop slower mentally, but develop faster physically. Less dangerous than mul rage, but certainly a hassle when you're having to baby something ten times bigger than you.
Wild (tribal, nomad) half-giants should retain this wild-child, original document lack of trust since they've never been 'trained'.

If you -must- add some kind of code change, make it so that half-giants lack the ability to order NPCs, thus making them poor leaders of clans. Detract slightly from their cap on direction-sense to make them poorer navigators.  Make it so that shields have to be a certain size, or they don't function properly as shields for half-giants.

Half-giants exist to be the brute force solution to problems, which are sometimes necessary on Zalanthas. Sure, you can take down a Mek. It requires planning, shield-wall rotations, maybe even a gemmed to ensure if someone is injured they can get out properly.
Or, you can bring a couple of half-giants.
Half-giants cost a lot. They are an investment. If you see a half-giant, you're thinking, 'by god, this is the back up, this is the emergency tool'. They take twice as long to train than a regular soldier, and are twice as unreliable, while being four times as effective. They make big targets. Hell, you can't even drag them to safety or pick up their freaking corpse if they die.
Being a half-giant means you're too stupid to say 'no'. You're the meat shield. You're the one that walks into the room that screams 'if you walk into this room, you die'. You have to roleplay being blissfully unaware while as a player you're screaming at the top of your lungs mentally that you're about to lose this half-giant that you spent twice as much time developing than anyone because they're too dumb to have any kind of self preservation instinct.

You get to have some fun, sure. All of the fun is combat related, however. You don't get to make any works of art. You don't get to make any stories, or sing any songs of note. You'll never be the best crafter of something. As a half-giant, your life is always on the line because you were bred to fucking kill stuff good and dead and not ask any questions. You'll never be a clan leader. No one will involve you in politicks.

In the world of Zalanthas, there is Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal. Half-giants lose out on the latter two while being extremely good at the first. Consider this before you want to 'nerf' half-giants.

[Dar]

As a half-giant, your life is always on the line because you were bred to fucking kill stuff good and dead and not ask any questions. You'll never be a clan leader. No one will involve you in politicks.

Oh, there'll be questions. Lots of questions. Loooooots of questions. He might just not understand the answers.


I'm sorry, Adam. But I personally see HGs as very different then how you see them. You're describing more Muls, then HGs. The concept of HG not trusting anybody, goes against 'everything' that I imagine an HG to be. I actually doubt that there 'is' any such thing as a 'tribal' HG. Or at least it shouldnt be. A mary sue situation could happen of a tribe finding an HG child and bringing them up, but a tribe of HGs? I do not think that is within the docs.

Personally, I would imagine places like Red Storm and Tribes would abhor Half Giants. Due to their absolute lack of tribal mindset, intense curiosity, lack of street smarts, and vulnerability to the indoctrination that the big cities are known and hated for.

[X-D]

I feel like most of the ploys I've seen used to influence HGs are pretty stupid and transparent.

Like...to the point that even a child wouldn't be impressed.  Maaaaybe y'all just need to upgrade your schemin' game and stop expecting easy results.

I have said that time and time again. When I play a HG I look forward to people trying to trick/use him...Most the time it simply does not happen (which makes me wonder who we should be complaining about nerfing)

I can count on one hand the number of times PCs have tried, Over the course of at least 6 HGs Each with an average RL time of more then 6 months and massive amounts of interaction...Exactly THREE...yes 3 PCs have EVER tried to manipulate/trick any of them. Two were totally infantile and the players should be ashamed. But there was a desert elf that had game and convinced one of my HGs that this item (scrab bladder of urine) Was in fact good luck water or somesuch, and worth five hundred coins.

I do not remember the PC...but it was on the road not far north of Luirs, if you still play, Kudos.

The rest...Blah...I have grand children with better game.

[Eyeball]

Every NPC half giant in the world is played badly. They should randomly quit their jobs, wander off into the wilds, and release prisoners if they had to drag them more than five tiles because they 'forgot', I should also be able to lure one from the gates with a shiny string.

This is going too far. Half-giants are some degree of stupid, but they aren't complete imbeciles like this. An eight year old can stay on task and finish it, and so can a half-giant with the constant reinforcement of human soldiers around.

[only_plays_tribals]

This is going too far. Half-giants are some degree of stupid, but they aren't complete imbeciles like this. An eight year old can stay on task and finish it, and so can a half-giant with the constant reinforcement of human soldiers around.

I was kind of dryly comparing the actions of HG NPC's to the seeming 'ideal' RP standard of HG's I keep hearing. Because it's kind of silly. Not that everyone claims HGs should be that dumb but I keep hearing it and I was trying to point out how silly it actually sounds.

[Inks]

Hgs 3 karma and HG npc soldiers replaced with human soldiers please. Static HG npcs remain in place.

Also Adamblue banned from any HG related threads for playing Ace

[AdamBlue]

Hgs 3 karma and HG npc soldiers replaced with human soldiers please. Static HG npcs remain in place.

Also Adamblue banned from any HG related threads for playing Ace

That was the last time I played a half-giant, and that was literally over three years ago.  Because of the karma changes, I don't think I can even play a half-giant anymore, even with a special application.
Even so, despite the fact I can't play them, I don't want to see them nerfed. Unfortunately for everyone else, karma has been stunted and impossible to achieve, so I get the impression that they don't want to see something so hard to get be so strong.

[Cind]

I think some of it is that half-giants don't seem to manage to stay unclanned very long--- I heard one of them tell me that 'Everyone is always trying to hire me.'

At that point, the giant's choices are the Arm or the Byn, and kudos to the (obviously unclanned) elf trying to trick an Arm giant pc into giving up those five hundred coins the lieutenant gave him for armor sizing, in exchange for a bladder full of urine.

The always Arm race versus the never-clanned race. It makes it that much sweeter when you win, though.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I don't recall how many half-giants I've played, but I would say out of over a hundred pc's over the years, maybe ten. I like half giants, and they can be fun to play as they are difficult to take down. You actually have time to decide if you want to finish this fight or not. However, they are also very difficult to train up, in anything. Please keep in mind that once you do (if you do) become a badass warrior and can slay any NPC creatures in the game, that part becomes extremely boring. I have found myself wishing that I had some other non combat skills to play with, or that I could carry on a normal conversation with someone, or find a mate. What I'm trying to say is that if you manage to live a long time, this role can become tedious, and I admit that I've ended up intentionally putting my half-giant characters into progressively more dangerous situations until they just die. I have seen some poorly played half giants, probably myself among them, but I think it is unfair to say that all half giants are played poorly. I've seen some that are ridiculously popular and loved IG that I always thought were not played all that well, and some that were played well and never appreciated. Let's remember also that with the new karma system, even if you have three karma, and you pick a half-giant, your choices of extended subclass and/or magick sub have to be apped for. Also, I trust staff to point out to players if they are playing a race so poorly that it is clearly against the docs.

[Cind]

Fighting in this game really does start to teeter off after a point in terms of being able to get stronger, finding a decent sparring buddy, I've seen some guys who were just grateful to find a sparring partner they didn't instantly murder.

Giants also have the problem often of not having another giant to train with once they do join a clan. I wonder if training against animals is still the superior way to train.

[Hauwke]

Arguably its not that hard to get a giant to stupid levels of deadliness. As with any character if you get whooped enough you eventually do the whooping.

Same with a HG, albeit probably a bit longer considering their abysmal capacity to dodge even after IG years of training.