Half-giant nerf/change suggestions

[MeTekillot]

Half-giants, in my experience, are not roleplayed as infamously stupid (most of the time). I don't want to call anyone out, if you think you're playing your giant's stupidity well then assume I'm not talking about you, but I think life could stand to be made a little harder for them and their erstwhile companions with a few code quirks here and there. As such:

Forgetfulness: half-giants, based on a wisdom check, could randomly lose an item from their inventory to signify them setting it down and promptly forgetting about it. They would not receive an echo about the item leaving their inventory.

I made a previous thread about half-giants not being able to accurately manipulate sums of coin higher than fifty at merchants, in their inventory, or when transferring to other players.

Based on a wisdom check at random, half-giants could stop guarding, stop following, stop watching, stop scanning, or stop listening (or perhaps combinations of the above) to signify their idiocy affecting their attention span.

When they enter combat (and during combat), half-giants should switch mercy status at random, with no prompt given to the player that this has happened.

There should be a significant bonus to any attempts to steal from a half-giant to signify their trusting nature.

Feel free to combat or support my suggestions in the thread, or offer some of your own.

Also have the half-giant NPC soldiers reduced to 1/10th of what there are currently please god

[Heade]

I think a couple of these would be good ideas, whereas others I think we have to consider playability, here. That said, here's what I think of your suggestions:

Forgetfulness: half-giants, based on a wisdom check, could randomly lose an item from their inventory to signify them setting it down and promptly forgetting about it. They would not receive an echo about the item leaving their inventory.

No: We need to allow players to have agency here. I like where you're going with this, and were I to play a half-giant I may very well trade my super-awesome armguard for a shiny rock, thus resulting in a similar outcome to your suggestion. But I'd like to leave the door open to players to determine what's important to their half-giant. One half-giant, for instance, may ALWAYS carry a ragdoll in their inventory that they play with, that they'd never ICly forget because it's so central to their characters desires, but the code would take the ability to do that away from them.

I made a previous thread about half-giants not being able to accurately manipulate sums of coin higher than fifty at merchants, in their inventory, or when transferring to other players.

Yes: I could support something along these lines, though it wouldn't be exactly as you worded it.

Based on a wisdom check at random, half-giants could stop guarding, stop following, stop watching, stop scanning, or stop listening (or perhaps combinations of the above) to signify their idiocy affecting their attention span.

No: Too many playability issues that effect other players. Having a half-giant stop following 10 times on a trip from Allanak to Morin's would be extremely cumbersome.

When they enter combat (and during combat), half-giants should switch mercy status at random, with no prompt given to the player that this has happened.

Super No: Massive playability issue. HG are already very likely to accidentally kill a sparring partner. Making that more likely isn't something that would add to the game.

There should be a significant bonus to any attempts to steal from a half-giant to signify their trusting nature.

Yes: I fully support this, if it isn't already the case.

Also have the half-giant NPC soldiers reduced to 1/10th of what there are currently please god

Yes: I fully support this, their numbers should more accurately reflect their rarity. 1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers. Regular soldiers replacing HG's could be represented in a single NPC "squad" entity of 5 soldiers, which would be the power equivalent to 1 HG. So nothing would change mechanically at all here, only thematically. Basically, staff would just be "reskinning" HG's to appear as squads of 5 generic human soldiers.

[MeTekillot]

To be fair, I think it should be extremely cumbersome to bring along what is essentially an enormous child who is supernaturally strong and supernaturally stupid. The only coded roadblock giants seem to face in clans is 'needs an inix' if it's not a human-only clan.

[Veselka]

There are a crazy amount of half-giant soldiers in Allanak, sometimes four in one room. I'd be totally fine with more human soldier presence, if they were spaced out and all patrolled (except for the ones guarding gates and the like). As it is, they will sometimes be in static positions for many IG weeks on end.

[Brokkr]

One half-giant, for instance, may ALWAYS carry a ragdoll in their inventory that they play with, that they'd never ICly forget because it's so central to their characters desires,

Huge red flag that the player of that HG does not understand HG mentality, and is instead copying bad PC HG behavior they have seen in the past.

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

[Heade]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

[cal]

HG are born.

[Brokkr]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

Not sure where you got a number of 1k HG as the number of total HG in Nak.  Which Game doc?

[Delirium]

Pretty sure half-giants are bred not created by some sort of arcane ritual. Long ago in the way distant past the original half-giants were created by magick, but since then it has seemed pretty obvious that they are just bred with each other. Maybe that is an area where the documentation could use some clarifying.

[Heade]

1 HG soldier for every 100 regular soldiers.

Actual proportion is roughly 1 for 15.

Game docs say Allanak has 1000 HGs. And they aren't born, only created, right?

So you're saying Allanak only has 15,000 troops in their army?

Not sure where you got a number of 1k HG as the number of total HG in Nak.  Which Game doc?

Ok, having trouble finding the original Doc(it's out there, might be on the old site), but here is a post from a staffer referencing populations that falls more in line with the 100:1 ratio I talked about. Almost exactly 100:1, actually: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52236.msg979946.html#msg979946

[Dar]

I never did get a good answer on that thread you quoted.

But yeah, if there are less then 500,000 people in Allanak. How much of it needs to be in the AoD?

some theorize that there can be 1 soldier in the retinue per 15 peasants. But those soldiers usually did other things as well.  But do those 500,000 people even include peasantry? Or only city dwellers.

[Delirium]

Not that this has any real weight in the discussion but a medieval armies were generally in the range of 10,000 to 40,000 people.

(source: quick google search)

[Heade]

Not that this has any real weight in the discussion but a medieval armies were generally in the range of 10,000 to 40,000 people.

(source: quick google search)

Yeah, there are docs somewhere that outline populations and how much of that population is a part of the allanaki military. But with 25 years of lore spread around over 2 websites, and data loss that has occurred, it's difficult to track down.

I think taking time to compile all that lore into some sort of single location would be a worthwhile endeavor. There are a lot of lost gems out there.

[number13]

OG half-gaints (in dark sun) were created by magic, but the current population breeds true with each other.

They aren't as stupid nor quite as strong as the Armageddon versions. They change alignment each morning, to reflect whoever they think the leader to emulate. Dark Sun HGs have almost no loyalty -- it takes just a day to 'reprogram' them to your cause.

Rather than being crushingly stupid, HGs should being mostly stupid, with loyalties that shift very easily. 

[Feco]

OG half-gaints (in dark sun) were created by magic, but the current population breeds true with each other.

They aren't as stupid nor quite as strong as the Armageddon versions. They change alignment each morning, to reflect whoever they think the leader to emulate. Dark Sun HGs have almost no loyalty -- it takes just a day to 'reprogram' them to your cause.

Rather than being crushingly stupid, HGs should being mostly stupid, with loyalties that shift very easily.

That's how half-giants are described in the docs:

Half-giants have no culture to speak of. Possessed of astounding degrees of curiosity and kindness (usually), half-giants very willingly adopt the customs of those nearby, and especially the customs of friends. This trait can be either a benefit or a serious detriment to those friends (or neighbours), depending on the circumstances. Half-giants are able to switch their loyalties very quickly, and some races (such as elves) find this to be intolerable.

They just aren't played that way.  They often seem loyal to a fault due to their stupidity, which is really not how it's supposed to be.

[Ender]

They just aren't played that way.  They often seem loyal to a fault due to their stupidity, which is really not how it's supposed to be.

Part of the problem is the gameworld NPCs not matching up with this either.  When a player in game sees tons of NPC Half-giant soldiers they will think "soldier is a viable role for a HG" when in reality the shifting loyalties of a HG should make being an effective soldier almost impossible for most of them.

I hate to say it, but I've seen many more HG PCs played poorly than played well over the years.  The coded advantages that HGs have make them rife for abuse, and seeing that abuse first hand over the years has been really disappointing.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

[MeTekillot]

I agree with Ender's suggestion and assessment of most HGs being played badly but still think there should be code quirks to remind people HGs are FUCKING DUMB. The coin thing, at least.

[Heade]

I hate to say it, but I've seen many more HG PCs played poorly than played well over the years.  The coded advantages that HGs have make them rife for abuse, and seeing that abuse first hand over the years has been really disappointing.

That said, I think the answer isn't adding code, but making the review process stricter.  I think HGs should be either 3 karma or special app only.

I'd agree with this. I've never seen appeal in playing a HG, so I never have tried one. Still wouldn't mind seeing them go the way of the kank, though other players might not share that feeling. I think making them more rare via CGP cost would go a long way towards seeing that players who are trusted to play them appropriately are the ones playing them.

[only_plays_tribals]

Personally I think the caveat of HG's are so dumb they can't be loyal is a terrible design flaw in HG's.

I could understand so dumb they can be tricked or mislead or forgetful, but the entire concept of a character too stupid to think for themselves... that also is barred from making stable friendships ...in a roleplaying game?

Every NPC half giant in the world is played badly. They should randomly quit their jobs, wander off into the wilds, and release prisoners if they had to drag them more than five tiles because they 'forgot', I should also be able to lure one from the gates with a shiny string.

They have to all be born in captivity. Wild animals are smarter than half-giant roleplay is defined and I suspect that's why people drift from the docs.

You may as well let us play gortoks with speech. But even gortoks have family packs so....

(edited to rant more)

[MeTekillot]

It's not like anyone actually roleplays their documentation flaws so I don't understand your complaint. Ideally, hiring a half giant should have a trade off of micromanaging the fact that they're a mentay disabled person with the strength of ten men. The current reality is "AWWWWW YISSS, MEK HUNTING TIME" and they stay in the clan with absolutely no problems arising from their idiocy (besides low success rates with barrier and slightly slower skill progression) for however long until the player stores from being bored of being immensely rich and successful from dominating the local cash cow big beasties with their clannies.

[MeTekillot]

I'd be fine with NPC half giants being sble to be manipulated by 'offer'ing them toys/weapons/candy, actually, I like that idea, too. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Inky]

Honestly. The racial documentation is pretty bad for all the races. They were written 20+ years ago and barely reflect the actual in game reality of playing and interacting with these races.

[MeTekillot]

Not really the tack I was expecting someone to take but points for originality.

[Derain]

Honestly I can agree I have seen some very smart Half giants recently who constantly say ok let me ask bob every time anyone talks to them. But I honestly don't feel like it matters enough to waste time coding a bunch of flaws when they already have to pay out the ass to tailor any piece of armor. I would however not mind seeing barter attempts on HGs make the price of things go UP.

[crymerci]

Honestly. The racial documentation is pretty bad for all the races. They were written 20+ years ago and barely reflect the actual in game reality of playing and interacting with these races.

I agree that there could be more documentation about how other people might see HGs. As documented, neither HGs nor Dwarves have a strong inherent racial-conflict hook, unlike the rest of the playable races, who all hate/fear each other.