Infiltrator Core Class - A discussion

[Cind]

Aren't we theorycrafting a little bit early? Maybe we should play these new dudes for sixteen months and then we'd be a lot more informed. That's enough for most people to max out a few right?

I got to say, I'm real interested in some of these sneaky types.

[Inks]

The only class the infiltrator should be compared to is the scout (wilderness equiv.)



I still think infiltrator loses out in this case, due to wilderness forage being powerful etc. Anyway.

Spawing HGs and all these warrior npc guards with master scan is concerning with the new levels though.

I think we are all theorycrafting a bit as Cind said, but wilderness quit, food forage, increased regen put the scout ahead IN MY OPINION.

Scouts have a lot of potential income due to skinning and crafting skills. Infiltrator can't make income like miscreant can, and can't survive like miscreant or enforcer can, with a lower sap cap than enforcer to boot.

..I broke my own comparing rule. Anyway, just my thoughts, leave it like it is I don't mind. If we could make assassins work we can sure as shit make infiltrator work.

[number13]

Infiltrator can't make income like miscreant can

Untrue.

[Inks]

Elaborate.

[crymerci]

Infiltrator doesn't get steal, so there is one way that statement is true.  Another skill could be used creatively to bypass that.

[Heade]

I guess, ultimately my question comes down to this...why make a class no one will play?

Infiltrator can't fight toe to toe as well as an Enforcer, who gets almost everything an infiltrator gets, only with better skill caps.
Infiltrator can't stealth or utility anywhere close to as well as a Miscreant.
Infiltrator ends up being less lethal than either of them due to a lack of synergy in their abilities.

Aren't we theorycrafting a little bit early? Maybe we should play these new dudes for sixteen months and then we'd be a lot more informed. That's enough for most people to max out a few right?

I don't think maxing them out is the end-all of balance, though. The journey matters. The end result for infiltrator is that, once maxxed, they are far less effective toe-to-toe than an enforcer, and less lethal overall than either enforcer OR miscreant. And on top of that, they have a tougher journey to max due to what needs to be branched and such than miscreant.

[number13]

>why make a class no one will play?

Untrue.

There are a few things I wish were different about the infiltrator, but it's not as bad as people are making out to be.

[Heade]

>why make a class no one will play?

Untrue.

There are a few things I wish were different about the infiltrator, but it's not as bad as people are making out to be.

So you would choose infiltrator over enforcer or miscreant, for some reason?

[number13]

So you would choose infiltrator over enforcer or miscreant, for some reason?

To mix stealth + combat potential with subclass that has nothing to do with stealth or combat.

Enforcer would be a decent choice, but having to branch sneak/climb would be a pain in the ass, and backstab/sap are essentially impossible to branch on enforcer for regular play. They don't get scan, hunt, or pick.

Miscreant would be a great choice. Miscreant is overpowered compared to the rest of the criminal classes, and picking it is never a bad idea. Firstly, that's a problem of the Miscreant getting too much shit, not of Infiltrator getting not enough shit. Miscreants shouldn't have so much combat potential.  Secondly, my suspicion (which might be wildly incorrect) is that Advanced combat skills on Miscreant cap out sooner than Advanced combat skills on Infiltrator.

If I'm wrong about that, and something like parry or piercing is the same level of Advanced on both classes, then, yes, picking Infiltrator is a dumb mistake, but only because Miscreant shouldn't have all those toys in one package.

That said -- there are problems with Infiltrator. They should get Master sap and perhaps be able to branch a one or two more of the combat skills -- like kick and threaten.

[Armaddict]

I'm honestly growing to be more and more of a fan of just bumping infiltrator's scan and removing it from miscreant.  Lower miscreant parry.

It's just weird that the premiere 'criminal class' (by this I mean the class that preys upon the average populace with crime), the burglar+pickpocket with combat skills, is also the one that is best suited to finding other stealthies, i.e. In gameplay terms, you'd want to hire miscreants to combat miscreants in most scenarios.  My qualms with infiltrator are that it genuinely feels like that niche, the criminal anti-criminal, should go in that spot, in terms of being squished between enforcer and miscreant.

Edit:
This is the part of 'assassin' gameplay that I look at the most as hard to let go of.  Assassins were a criminal class...but they were essentially just a city ranger, versatile for most city roles in the game that involved city-based clans.  That's a lot less prevalent now with most of the clans closed, but assassins found a home everywhere, while burglars and pickpockets really were kind of pushed into serving those purposes.  It was less about 'Oh, I want maxxed hide and all that'.  It was just the versatility for a city-based character.  A city ranger.  Where miscreant now serves that role best, along with the direct criminal enterprise as well, I'm seriously scratching my head as to why I'd ever choose infiltrator -except- in the case that during character creation, I decided I wanted to fool with people guildsniffing me.

That would be a weird character concept.

Edited again:
I realize that versatility is present in the miscreant.  Just that it having -all- of the versatility to a better degree without really sacrificing much is why this keeps being something I'm pointing at.  Only adding this because the previous edit made it sound like 'oh no, no more assassin gameplay'.

[Nao]

You would choose infiltrators because you want more pure combat oomph than the miscreant (yes,it has been stated that the light combat guilds cap out higher), but still want access to pick, don't want to branch backstab and have better stealth/utility than the enforcer.

The weapon skills of the light combat classes cap out near where the old warrior class was, I think they are close to warriors in combat ability (just missing a few skills, and maybe capping out a bit lower for non-weapon combat  skills). Miscreants don't get that. The Enforcer does, but they don't get the utility, need an endless grind to get backstab, and stealth caps lower.

[Cind]

>why make a class no one will play?

Untrue.

There are a few things I wish were different about the infiltrator, but it's not as bad as people are making out to be.

So you would choose infiltrator over enforcer or miscreant, for some reason?

I think its inevitable that there are going to be classes the population prefers over others, and also classes that do not specialize in one group of skills, you know. If you play Dungeons and Dragons, the rest of the party sometimes prefers you specialize in one class, and do one thing well. Noncombat skills matter ever more in this game, and not specializing can really hurt you.

But there's people like me who sometimes don't want master hide or master slashing weapons in exchange for story props, which is what I think they ended up making the nonspecialized classes for. For example, maybe you pick infiltrator and play a thief for a couple of years and then reform and join the Arm. In exchange for not being the best pc soldier there, you have the chance to play this story, AND know mirrukim at the same time, because that was important for some reason. (I think I remember doing something like this once; I literally couldn't do the story without knowing dwarvish.)

Let's wait a while and see, I want to see which class is gonna be the next ranger.

[sleepyhead]

As someone who sucks at the horrid grind of this game and thus has pretty much zero chance of ever maxing out any weapon skill ever, I see no reason to pick infiltrator. I feel like there should be some reason to pick infiltrator for the people who aren't good at maxxing out those difficult to maxx skills.

[mansa]

I think Infiltrator should get:

Master Hunt
Master Scan
Journeyman Haggle

And then change it's name to 'thief catcher'

[roughneck]

I think Infiltrator should get:

Master Scan

I think this would make for an interesting balance with miscreant.

[Inks]

The whole point of these changes was that there is no next ranger.

[Nao]

As someone who sucks at the horrid grind of this game and thus has pretty much zero chance of ever maxing out any weapon skill ever, I see no reason to pick infiltrator. I feel like there should be some reason to pick infiltrator for the people who aren't good at maxxing out those difficult to maxx skills.

What makes Infiltrator different from the other light and heavy combat classes in this regard?

[number13]

What makes Infiltrator different from the other light and heavy combat classes in this regard?

The heavy combat classes have a lot of combat skills that can be grinded up relatively quickly, ie, not weapon or stances.

[MeTekillot]

The whole point of these changes was that there is no next ranger.

Not sure that's correct. Who gets master scan?

[Cind]

Miscreant gets master scan, hide, sneak and listen and I'm fairly sure its the only one who does.

[flurry]

Miscreant gets master scan, hide, sneak and listen and I'm fairly sure its the only one who does.

Stalker does too, if you replace listen with listen_wild.

Laborer also gets master scan.

(Side thought: Why isn't scan divided into city/wilderness versions? Or is it? I can't keep up.)

[Brokkr]

Because listen has two different functions.

[Vex]

Because listen has two different functions.

I consider myself, fairly code savvy. However, I don't actually understand the specifics, of why it was split, and what the differences are.

I may simply be overlooking the help files, but I could not find them, on the website. Could some be added, with details of the difference between the two? Even if it's explained here, this will fall off the radar eventually, so a help file would be ideal.

[mansa]

Because listen has two different functions.

I consider myself, fairly code savvy. However, I don't actually understand the specifics, of why it was split, and what the differences are.

I may simply be overlooking the help files, but I could not find them, on the website. Could some be added, with details of the difference between the two? Even if it's explained here, this will fall off the radar eventually, so a help file would be ideal.

"Listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can make noise."

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Listen

[Vex]

I've seen that file, yes, but it does not have mention of there being two versions, or what the differences are.

An update, or creating a new one, to include both versions of the skill and any difference between them, so that players know how best to utilize it, would be for the best. I would assume, there is more to it, than "one works in the bar, the other works in the tree fort".