Infiltrator Core Class - A discussion

[Heade]

So, I didn't see any topics specific to this particular class, and I feel like there should be one, so here it is. How does everyone else feel about this class' skill set? Think it is good as-is?

My thoughts are as follows:

I think, as the premier "spy/assassin" type character, that not having master stealth skills is a big detriment overall. Since it's combat skills are capped at advanced, I don't think having master stealth skills would be OP on a character like this.

Furthermore, I think it would be very cool if a flag was added to this class to allow them to learn languages/accents faster, to further facilitate the concept of an "infiltrator". Thoughts?

[Vex]

Miscreant is the prime spy class.

Infiltrator sacrifices that, to achieve master backstab and more combat viability. I haven't tried infiltrator yet, but both of my miscreants have been extremely combat inefficient compared to my (master) assassin of olde. The combat skills start very low, raise very slow, and achieve mediocre peaks. Its my understanding, infiltrator is the inverse of this.

As amazing as master backstab is, though, I admit that I would need to be building a pc around it, to ever choose Infiltrator over Miscreant or Enforcer. On paper, it feels like it requires an advanced sub, to be competitive. On the other hand, paired with certain advanced subs, it looks like it would have really, incredible potential. If I had 2-3 karma, I could have some serious fun with it. As a no-karma player, nothing I could sub with it would make it pop in a way that wouldn't work better, as a miscreant, or enforcer, unless I specifically wanted master backstab for something.

While I wouldn't give them master stealth, else miscreant loses it's main niche, I would provide them with an additional combat skill. Riposte would be stellar for them, but, requires a slashing weapon, meaning a necessity of switching from stabber post-backstab to slasher > engage riposte during melee. In that time, I would rather bashing, to prevent fleeing. Riposte functioning with both slashing AND piercing/stabbing would fix that (and make fighters less forced into slashing weapons...).

I would definitely, give them blowgun right away, instead of forcing them to grind poisoning first. It's very potent, but exactly the kind of thing a commando-style rogue should have, right out of the box, imo.

I would replace crossbows with archery, as bows, especially shortbows, seem to have many more lower strength options, and fit in much better with the infiltrator skillset (lighter, faster firing, but slightly lower damage) compared to crossbows.

Start them with scan and branch into peek from it. Branching off sneak/hide sucks, for everyone.

Give them steal (to advanced). It's a bit of survival/income, and being able to swipe keys and scrolls (and picks), fits with the theme, imo.

Give them master listen. I don't feel, I even need to explain why.

Free language/accent gains would invalidate a couple subs in a massive way, and giving them (or enforcer) master stealth, without having to specifically sub for it, would make them really powerful. Not just because the core skills would overshadow all other stealth classes, but, by eliminating the need to sub for master stealth, you're free to pick some other adv. sub, or magick with no regrets.

Like soldier, it's almost, but not quite, something I would pick for a character. Also like soldier, if I had the karma, to bolt on adv. subs, it would probably be about perfect. Hopefully, both of them will get a second look, and some fine tuning.

[number13]

Changes I'd make:

- Chopping and slashing weapons should max at Journeyman.

- Sap max at Master, maybe. I don't remember if Assassin could master sap or not.

- Hide/sneak should max at Master.

- Swap things so that you get Scan initially, but have to branch Search.

- Branch kick instead of bash. Kick feels more like a ninja thing to have.

[crymerci]

Changes I'd make:

- Chopping and slashing weapons should max at Journeyman.

- Sap max at Master, maybe. I don't remember if Assassin could master sap or not.

- Hide/sneak should max at Master.

- Swap things so that you get Scan initially, but have to branch Search.

- Branch kick instead of bash. Kick feels more like a ninja thing to have.

There is no chop/slash in infiltrator. Or are you suggesting it be added?

Agree about kick - bash and shield use in general seem less suited to city combat/stealth. Riposte (working with piercing) would make better sense to me than shield. It just seems like kick/riposte are better suited to the quick sneaky types and shield/bash to strong combat types.

I like Vox's idea of blowgun use being on the start tree.

Also,

Branching off sneak/hide sucks, for everyone.

+1

[number13]

There is no chop/slash in infiltrator.

Infiltrator currently gets chop and slash up to Advanced.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Infiltrator

[Heade]

Miscreant is the prime spy class.

Infiltrator sacrifices that, to achieve master backstab and more combat viability.

Currently, infiltrator trades many utility skills to obtain master backstab and a master ranged ability, when compared to Miscreant, who also caps combat abilities at advanced. From what was stated previously by Brokkr, Infiltrators also don't have a higher starting combat skill than miscreants, as the only classes that got the higher starting combat skills were the heavy combat classes like enforcer. This is what infiltrator gives up for master backstab:

Lowered skill caps to the following skills to advanced: sneak, hide, climb, pick(must branch), poisoning, sleight of hand, hunt, listen, peek(must branch), scan(must branch), search, watch, forage

Doesn't get these abilities at all:  steal


That is FOURTEEN utility skills that infiltrators give up to Miscreant in order to get master backstab and master throw/crossbow, with a branched bash. I don't think both classes having master stealth skills would particularly encroach upon the Miscreant's "specialty". An infiltrator should be able to infiltrate, after all, and stealth is one of the primary methods of doing that. Insofar as the infiltrator class goes, it's essentially their ONLY coded way to do that.

Honestly, I think it's problematic that there seems to have been a decision made that no one with master backstab be allowed to have master stealth skills, even if that class gives up combat utility when compared to heavy combat classes. It almost seems like someone has a problem with the entire idea of a stealthy assassin-type character being viable.

But those opinions aside, a fully branched Infiltrator seems like they'd be less useful as an assassin in many cases than a fully branched miscreant, due to getting master stealth, master poisoning, and advanced brew, with many of the same combat abilities as the infiltrator. I see that as a problem, when Miscreant is also a far better spy, burglar, pickpocket, explorer, counter-agent, and so on.

I haven't once heard anyone say they were excited about the infiltrator class, though there have been numerous people saying they like Miscreant. That is indicative of an imbalance, in my opinion.

[Miradus]

I love miscreant. It's hands down my favorite class now. It's got all the tricks available that a city bugger needs, either out of the box or available without a ridiculous amount of grinding.

Infiltrator ... I feel meh about. Your mileage may vary but my experience shows that backstab is too situational and niche to give up ALL THAT for. When I'm gonna kill someone, I've got lots of options on the table to do it and I just don't need the one-hit-kill. It's a double-cheese pizza ... good, but not necessary for your enjoyment.

However, pure conjecture here, I don't know that "advanced" is "advanced" across the board. There's a 20 skillpoint range there for an advanced skill. If miscreant caps at the very first point of advanced, and infiltrator caps at the last point of advanced before master, then you've got a huge difference in combat skill there. An infiltrator is 20% a better fighter than an equally tuned miscreant.

But again, that's also situational. In the mean streets, nobody is going to get in an evenly matched fight outside of the sparring circle. If I think my target has a chance of winning, I bring another guy.

I think infiltrator is fine for a core killer, but I just never want to give up that much utility.

There's three things that have to line up for a concept to work ... people always forget the third one, I feel:

Class + subguild + environment.

An infiltrator who joins the Jade Sabers is going to have that environment really panned out. An infiltrator who works alone out of the rinth is going to struggle much harder to really reach any decent potential.

Enforcer though ... needs serious work. Without scan you're like a limping gazelle on the Serengeti. A raider/thief makes a better no-karma option than almost anything you can pair enforcer with.

[Bogre]

Well, the problem is that Enforcer + extended sub works better as an infiltrator than an infiltrator does, in both stealth and combat capabilities.

Without extended subs, infiltrators basically only get backstab early and at a lower cap, to the detriment of combat skills over enforcer and utility/stealth skills over miscreant. You're starting with backstab but unfortunately with a lot of key limitations.

If they had higher stealth from the get-go, you'd increase their niche, and they'd be a great target for a diverse subguild choice. They'd eventually get better combat capabilities than miscreant (with the wider skill ranges and caps) at the cost of utility. And if they had low master stealth (assassins of yore) and miscreants get higher master stealth (a la burglars of yore) I think it'd be good. And then compared to enforcer, you'd have better stealth and quicker access to many of the key skills, with a much easier time diversifying your skill set with subs than enforcer. (Because to bolster the stealth part from the gate you need a more redundant sub with Enforcer).

I think that would leave things in good balance, and make Infiltrator an attractive choice for:

Combat stealth folks who want to craft a bit
Mystical assassin-y types
Decent out-of-the-gate thug types
Soldier-police types

[MeTekillot]

To be fair, the one extended sub that gets master stealth is having its stealth reduced, is it not?

[Vex]

Currently, infiltrator trades many utility skills to obtain master backstab and a master ranged ability, when compared to Miscreant, who also caps combat abilities at advanced.

Master backstab is an incredibly powerful skill, when used to it's fullest advantages. Infiltrator is the ONLY class to get it the skill with a masters potential, without requiring a brutally punishing grind first. I don't even consider Enforcer backstab, as something within the realm of possible for anyone with something approaching a healthy career/social life, or endeavors to play interesting characters. The only pc I met, who had adv. weapon skills, for example, was someone who logged off or idled all night, and cheesed to such an extreme during the day, he must have had staff in his pocket, to get away with it. It was utterly, totally comical, and I used to fight gortoks in the dark for gains.

So, thats saying something, about the requirements for enforcer master backstab.

Infiltrator is, imo, the only class who gets it without karma requirements.

Lowered skill caps to the following skills to advanced: sneak, hide, climb, pick(must branch), poisoning, sleight of hand, hunt, listen, peek(must branch), scan(must branch), search, watch, forage

Doesn't get these abilities at all:  steal

Every class must branch, and if you take notice of the full breadth of the classes available, you will observe that survival and craft classes get many more master skills than mixed combat classes. Infiltrator is a mixed combat class, with a focus on assassin-like killing skills, so they get some of the best pvp skills in the game, all at once.

Master backstab is the wettest of dreams, and the focus of many players who want to show everyone whats up. It is very, very powerful when used correctly, and it should come with a cost. For assassins of old, it was being an extreme glass cannon. If you didn't kill your target in the opening moves, you were deep in the shit, friend. Very deep.

Now, you can survive those dozen seconds quite well, and have two built-in anti-flee skills, as well as subdue. I really feel subdue is underrated and needs more love. With less tunnel visioning on skill ranges, and a greater focus on their synergies and themes, it makes much more sense, the decisions that were made for most classes.

Scout vs Stalker, is much the same. You choose scout and receive serious wilderness killing power, or Stalker for the survival and utility. They are two sides of the same ranger, without being able to do everything, alone. That is the nature of this new beast.

That is FOURTEEN utility skills that infiltrators give up to Miscreant in order to get master backstab and master throw/crossbow, with a branched bash. I don't think both classes having master stealth skills would particularly encroach upon the Miscreant's "specialty". An infiltrator should be able to infiltrate, after all, and stealth is one of the primary methods of doing that. Insofar as the infiltrator class goes, it's essentially their ONLY coded way to do that.

Yes, it almost looks like the inverse of infiltrator... where you have to choose between better combat skills and killing power, and survival skills and easier quality of life. You cannot do everything masterfully, all alone. My miscreant will be a better survivor, and your infiltrator will be a better predator. If we work together, we will be difficult to overcome. Alone, we're viable in our niche, but not beyond.

That, imo, was the entire point.

Honestly, I think it's problematic that there seems to have been a decision made that no one with master backstab be allowed to have master stealth skills, even if that class gives up combat utility when compared to heavy combat classes. It almost seems like someone has a problem with the entire idea of a stealthy assassin-type character being viable.

It's the new system, a system of choices. You may have your killing power, but at a cost. You may have your untouchable stealth, but at a cost. You may have your melee dominance, but at a cost. If you're one of the fortunate enough to have karma, you can circumvent most of the sting that comes with those choices, but you still have to choose.

But those opinions aside, a fully branched Infiltrator seems like they'd be less useful as an assassin in many cases than a fully branched miscreant, due to getting master stealth, master poisoning, and advanced brew, with many of the same combat abilities as the infiltrator. I see that as a problem, when Miscreant is also a far better spy, burglar, pickpocket, explorer, counter-agent, and so on.

If thats your preference, choose miscreant.

I do agree, that Infiltrator needs some small adjustments, but I don't feel that providing them with master stealth is the solution. The way scan has been allocated across classes and subs, advanced stealth skills are viable, if not an invisibility spell that it is, at master. Due to the higher difficulty or raising sneak/hide to master (less city pcs with master scan), most of the time on my miscreants has been at advanced, and I've overall not had any real problems.

I haven't once heard anyone say they were excited about the infiltrator class, though there have been numerous people saying they like Miscreant. That is indicative of an imbalance, in my opinion.

It's indicative of what most players are looking for, imo.

There is not a huge subset of players, who are building a character from the ground up, to be an efficient pk machine. In my observations, I found most players to be more interested in playing house, procuring wealth via pve and crafting, and having a lot of sex. There are many people who are, definitely, opportunistic pvpers, but they're typically the pve/social/sex crowd looking for some excitement, without a lot of the risks and challenges that comes with being a raider, dedicated assassin, or other pc-ending antagonists.

Infiltrator is, were I to make a city focused ender of lives, the class I would choose. I would choose enforcer/slipknife over it with karma, but karma is... not a good indicator, of balance, or fairness.

I do feel, it needs some looking and adjustments, before it would appeal to me and what I look for in classes, but... I don't think turning it into an assassin of old, with none of it's drawbacks, is the solution, or a benefit to anyone.

[Heade]

My miscreant will be a better survivor, and your infiltrator will be a better predator.

The problem is, this isn't true. An infiltrator who relies on stealth in order to deliver those master backstabs is at a significant disadvantage under this system. A miscreant with master stealth has a better shot at getting where he needs to be and delivering an effective, poisoned backstab than the infiltrator does, and that's supposed to be the infiltrator's main selling point. I'm not sold, and neither are you, as you've stated already that infiltrator isn't a class you'd pick.

But those opinions aside, a fully branched Infiltrator seems like they'd be less useful as an assassin in many cases than a fully branched miscreant, due to getting master stealth, master poisoning, and advanced brew, with many of the same combat abilities as the infiltrator. I see that as a problem, when Miscreant is also a far better spy, burglar, pickpocket, explorer, counter-agent, and so on.

If thats your preference, choose miscreant.

I will likely choose neither, because I'm not looking to play an assassin right now. I'm making this case on behalf of players who do, and should I ever decide to in the future. The answer to a non-effective class should never be "choose a different one". If that were the case, why have infiltrator at all?

I do agree, that Infiltrator needs some small adjustments, but I don't feel that providing them with master stealth is the solution.

Look, I'm not suggesting that infiltrators be given the same toolbox as miscreants, but it's a fact that stealth directly synergizes with the defining skill of infiltrators(backstab), and their stealth is set to cap at a level in which just practicing their trade carries a particularly high chance of failure even at max skill. When paired with the fact that often, failure = death, I don't think this is an acceptable state of affairs. Infiltrator doesn't get better at backstabbing successfully by working with a miscreant. As a matter of fact, nothing will make them better at that, short of changing their skillcaps and giving them the coded ability to properly get into position to use it.

So this "balance decision" does nothing to lead to players needing to work together more. It simply eliminates a character archetype from the game, making arm even less deadly as a whole. It basically just makes it to where no character in the game can have both master backstab and master stealth, despite those skills synergising and making absolute sense to be able to have on a character.


PS: Despite my jolly roger avatar, I personally have a penchant for playing social characters as opposed to combat PCs. I'm not arguing in the interest of my own characters here, but rather in the interest of what I see as being best for the game. As a matter of fact, making this argument goes against many of my own PCs interest since several "social" classes get fairly high scan, and thus such a change would make it more likely for those classes to be effectively assassinated by a master infiltrator. And I think they -should- be able to be effectively targetted by those types.

[Miradus]

Scan will usually not save you from a dedicated hit. If I've put effort into killing YOU specifically, then scan isn't really going to prevent you from dying. Ironically LISTEN will do more to keep you alive than scan as it's a passive skill that'll alert you without you having to HOPE you notice that shadow.

However, scan helps you avoid being the random target of people whose skills are not yet top notch.

An infiltrator with stealth gear, who knows the game code (particularly crimcode), and with high end agility ... is going to be a monster. Even at advanced stealth. I've noticed I often have a hard time getting my stealth to progress above journeyman when I have extremely high stealth. Because you just don't fail much.

Of all the players I've killed, most have been done via treachery and betrayal, not game mechanics. Death comes swift in Zalanthas, most often by the hand you trust.

[Vex]

The problem is, this isn't true. An infiltrator who relies on stealth in order to deliver those master backstabs is at a significant disadvantage under this system. A miscreant with master stealth has a better shot at getting where he needs to be and delivering an effective, poisoned backstab than the infiltrator does, and that's supposed to be the infiltrator's main selling point. I'm not sold, and neither are you, as you've stated already that infiltrator isn't a class you'd pick.

I wouldn't pick it, because I don't play with the focus of being an optimal PK. If I did want to focus on that, it is the class I would choose, even as it is, because of the skills afforded and how useful they are, to those ends. I think you're underselling the value of the skill set the class has and the viability of advanced sneak/hide under the current class system.

It isn't flawless like master sneak/hide, but if you want that bad enough, there are two classes that specialize in it.

I do agree, that infiltrators could use improvements; I do not agree, with giving them the farm.

I will likely choose neither, because I'm not looking to play an assassin right now. I'm making this case on behalf of players who do, and should I ever decide to in the future. The answer to a non-effective class should never be "choose a different one". If that were the case, why have infiltrator at all?

The answer to, "I like miscreant better!" is always going to be, "So play a miscreant!".

Look, I'm not suggesting that infiltrators be given the same toolbox as miscreants, but it's a fact that stealth directly synergizes with the defining skill of infiltrators(backstab), and their stealth is set to cap at a level in which just practicing their trade carries a particularly high chance of failure even at max skill. When paired with the fact that often, failure = death, I don't think this is an acceptable state of affairs. Infiltrator doesn't get better at backstabbing successfully by working with a miscreant. As a matter of fact, nothing will make them better at that, short of changing their skillcaps and giving them the coded ability to properly get into position to use it.

So this "balance decision" does nothing to lead to players needing to work together more. It simply eliminates a character archetype from the game, making arm even less deadly as a whole. It basically just makes it to where no character in the game can have both master backstab and master stealth, despite those skills synergising and making absolute sense to be able to have on a character.

Yes, you are.

You're asking that the specialization of two classes, be transferred to Infiltrator, because you want one of, if not THE most powerful player killing skills in the game, with master sneak and hide. On top of all the other skills infiltrators already have, that are rather powerful in their current combination. Without giving anything up, or suffering the heinous defense malus that balanced the old assassin guild.

If you feel it is critical you have both, you can sub for it, at the cost of heavy redundancy, and missing out on other beneficial options.

I feel as if, I have had this discussion before...

PS: Despite my jolly roger avatar, I personally have a penchant for playing social characters as opposed to combat PCs. I'm not arguing in the interest of my own characters here, but rather in the interest of what I see as being best for the game. As a matter of fact, making this argument goes against many of my own PCs interest since several "social" classes get fairly high scan, and thus such a change would make it more likely for those classes to be effectively assassinated by a master infiltrator. And I think they -should- be able to be effectively targetted by those types.

I do believe, you play social/political characters. Yes.

I've noticed I often have a hard time getting my stealth to progress above journeyman when I have extremely high stealth. Because you just don't fail much.

I feel this, needs more attention.

It is very true.

[Heade]

Look, I'm not suggesting that infiltrators be given the same toolbox as miscreants

Yes, you are.

No, I'm not. Asking that infiltrator come with backstab and stealth capped at master isn't taking the other TWELVE utility skills that miscreants are better in.

You're asking that the specialization of two classes, be transferred to Infiltrator

Miscreant can hardly claim to be "specialized" into stealth considering the multitude of other utulity skills they get at master. Giving 2 classes master stealth doesn't make miscreant worse, or in any way a less optimal option for sheer versatility. It just allows infiltrators to better do what they're supposedly designed to do.

If you feel it is critical you have both, you can sub for it, at the cost of heavy redundancy, and missing out on other beneficial options.

Actually, you CAN'T sub for it now. They've lowered slipknife to advanced stealth skills, per Brokkr, which is one of the reasons why this is so impactful. There is literally NOTHING you can do to have the following 3 skills at master on 1 character: Backstab, Sneak, Hide.

Unless staff let's you make a custom character of some sort, which I don't even know if they still do via special apps.

[Heade]

Also, with that "sub for it" comment, you're assuming everyone playing is running around with 2 karma to pay for that sub. I'd like to know what percentage of the active player base is at what karma levels, but until I know that, I'm going to assume Karma isn't common enough to make it the norm for balancing things like this.

[Armaddict]

You actually have it backwards, Vex.

The infiltrator is surpassed in lethality by both the enforcer and the miscreant, and all of your hubbub about master backstab is incredibly flawed as far as actual practical use of skills.  Thus, the -survivalist- infiltrator, as it stands, will actually be more eager to kill rivals early, not leave them, because it has no real endstage survivability against most of its alley-colleagues.

As someone who plays a lot of stealth, and has almost 0 aversion to PK, I can tell you that giving better stealth skills does not tie in with a PK monster, but it does tie in with options.  Frankly, I find your assertion that giving master stealth skills to the infiltrator makes it a PK machine to be incredibly one dimensional and indicative of blinding yourself.  As Brokkr noted, he has an aversion to the assassin playstyle and that's why he didn't like it, but over the course of time, you're going to see less people playing the class, and more people who do play it dedicated to kill first, ask later, when playing it.  And it won't be their fault, because they simply can't depend on survivability while being hunted, and they only lose advantage as time goes on.

It's a very faulty skill-balance along the criminal side of the class tree, which I went on at great length about during the announcement.  All the wariness and uptight moderation around PK balance has resulted in a very short-sighted approach to the creation process that is almost self-fulfilling prophecy in the long run.

Reiterating again what I said then...pick lock, climb, master stealth, and 'passive' criminal skills belong in the light mercantile criminal class, and the 'active', engaging, lethality-based skills belong in the light combat criminal class.  The mixed gets both, but lower maxes in all of it.

In terms of 'sub for it', that's a pretty much snide response to the acknowledgement that things are indeed skewed in a really fuckin' weird way.  The fact we're calling a class from the 'mixed' tier THE specialist in anything is bonkers.

[Miradus]

Having encountered him on both ends of the shiv, I can say he doth know of what he speaks.

In terms of gameplay, let me explain a little about the non-code dynamics of PK.

I take someone down. They're stunned. I have a choice at that point. Kill them, or let them go. Maybe they get robbed, maybe they get maimed. Unless they've been identified to me as a threat before, I'm going to generally let them go.

But the way that is going to play out after is that they're going to then immediately run to the Templars, or to whomever they're clanned up with, and revenge gets plotted.

With a miscreant, as the revenge gets enacted, there's going to be some substantial cat-and-mouse going on before it resolves. It makes good stories, and SOMEONE is getting a good ending for their character out of it.

As an infiltrator, you've got all the skills needed to kill, and few to survive the counterstrike. The only way you're going to let that stunned victim up is if you're suicidal.

You can't really make money like a miscreant or a pilferer (or even a fence) so your hidden bribery skill is going to be weak. You can't run off into the wilds to live until the heat dies down because you have no other utility. You're going to be a walking, kalan-picking dude to survive until they find you or you get so bored you store. You can become a rooftop one-room wonder with city forage if you want, but that's about it.

[Inks]

Yes, the class is seriously gimped due to foolishness. Perhaps because the guy making the classes didn't like assassins? Who knows.

Master hide/sneak would be enough to make the INFILTRATOR  class better, not like INFILTRATING requires stealth.

Enforcer : Better than infiltrator in almost every way.

Miscreant: Master hide/sneak skills and assassin skills to advanced.

What the hell.

Armaddict has it on point with his last post.

[seidhr]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

[MeTekillot]

But I want to be an elite ninja.

[Inks]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

If you could compare infiltrator to the other criminal classes it would be for the game's benefit though.

Don't get me wrong assassin was hard to be effective at, I like the new classes . But infiltrator has a strange skillset.

Bash?

Advanced stealth skills when criminal players have known many soldier npcs have master scan for years, including spawned HGs.

Regardless I am not saying the class is unplayable. It just is weak compared to the actual elite combat ninja you have created (enforcer).

Also weak compared to the ultimate thief/spy/burglar class (miscreant) Combat wise as well.

[Armaddict]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

...Miscreants can still do this, and the entire discussion is based on how that weighting between classes seems off.  Not that some magickal thing needs to be returned to the game.  The above literally makes no sense in any context.

[Inks]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

...Miscreants can still do this, and the entire discussion is based on how that weighting between classes seems off.  Not that some magickal thing needs to be returned to the game.  The above literally makes no sense in any context.

Also this.

Also why does miscreant get master poison and Infiltrator get advanced, likely below the level you can see what something is poisoned with?

[number13]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

Crime code overhaul would fix people thinking they need to be undetectable by all means.

I don't have any good ideas on how to change things, exactly. It's just -- I don't care if a PC finds my master criminal. That's fun. Dying to ultra buff NPCs is boring, on the other hand.

[Synthesis]

I haven't played an infiltrator, so my opinion is theorycrafting.  However....

1. Crossbow use?  Pointless.
2. Advanced shield use? Pointless.
3. Chopping and slashing? Pointless.
4. Advanced sneak/hide/climb?  I have very strong doubts about the utility here.
5. Bash? Pointless.
6. Jman subdue? Strong doubts about the utility. Especially since I strongly suspect that city-elves are the only race that will get any utility out of advanced sneak/hide/climb.
7.  Jman pickmaking? Good luck with that.
8. Peek without steal is a blatant encouragement to PK.
9. Master backstab, as far as I can tell, is not a significant improvement over advanced backstab, except when backstabbing a target under a couple of uncommon circumstances.

Overall...not impressed.  Especially when you compare them to the scout skillset.  Seems like the main reasons to pick infiltrator are: 1) if you don't want to burn your subclass by going enforcer/slipknife to just start with backstab, or 2) you can't be arsed to grind throw on a miscreant.