Infiltrator Core Class - A discussion

[Heade]

So, I didn't see any topics specific to this particular class, and I feel like there should be one, so here it is. How does everyone else feel about this class' skill set? Think it is good as-is?

My thoughts are as follows:

I think, as the premier "spy/assassin" type character, that not having master stealth skills is a big detriment overall. Since it's combat skills are capped at advanced, I don't think having master stealth skills would be OP on a character like this.

Furthermore, I think it would be very cool if a flag was added to this class to allow them to learn languages/accents faster, to further facilitate the concept of an "infiltrator". Thoughts?

[Vex]

Miscreant is the prime spy class.

Infiltrator sacrifices that, to achieve master backstab and more combat viability. I haven't tried infiltrator yet, but both of my miscreants have been extremely combat inefficient compared to my (master) assassin of olde. The combat skills start very low, raise very slow, and achieve mediocre peaks. Its my understanding, infiltrator is the inverse of this.

As amazing as master backstab is, though, I admit that I would need to be building a pc around it, to ever choose Infiltrator over Miscreant or Enforcer. On paper, it feels like it requires an advanced sub, to be competitive. On the other hand, paired with certain advanced subs, it looks like it would have really, incredible potential. If I had 2-3 karma, I could have some serious fun with it. As a no-karma player, nothing I could sub with it would make it pop in a way that wouldn't work better, as a miscreant, or enforcer, unless I specifically wanted master backstab for something.

While I wouldn't give them master stealth, else miscreant loses it's main niche, I would provide them with an additional combat skill. Riposte would be stellar for them, but, requires a slashing weapon, meaning a necessity of switching from stabber post-backstab to slasher > engage riposte during melee. In that time, I would rather bashing, to prevent fleeing. Riposte functioning with both slashing AND piercing/stabbing would fix that (and make fighters less forced into slashing weapons...).

I would definitely, give them blowgun right away, instead of forcing them to grind poisoning first. It's very potent, but exactly the kind of thing a commando-style rogue should have, right out of the box, imo.

I would replace crossbows with archery, as bows, especially shortbows, seem to have many more lower strength options, and fit in much better with the infiltrator skillset (lighter, faster firing, but slightly lower damage) compared to crossbows.

Start them with scan and branch into peek from it. Branching off sneak/hide sucks, for everyone.

Give them steal (to advanced). It's a bit of survival/income, and being able to swipe keys and scrolls (and picks), fits with the theme, imo.

Give them master listen. I don't feel, I even need to explain why.

Free language/accent gains would invalidate a couple subs in a massive way, and giving them (or enforcer) master stealth, without having to specifically sub for it, would make them really powerful. Not just because the core skills would overshadow all other stealth classes, but, by eliminating the need to sub for master stealth, you're free to pick some other adv. sub, or magick with no regrets.

Like soldier, it's almost, but not quite, something I would pick for a character. Also like soldier, if I had the karma, to bolt on adv. subs, it would probably be about perfect. Hopefully, both of them will get a second look, and some fine tuning.

[number13]

Changes I'd make:

- Chopping and slashing weapons should max at Journeyman.

- Sap max at Master, maybe. I don't remember if Assassin could master sap or not.

- Hide/sneak should max at Master.

- Swap things so that you get Scan initially, but have to branch Search.

- Branch kick instead of bash. Kick feels more like a ninja thing to have.

[crymerci]

Changes I'd make:

- Chopping and slashing weapons should max at Journeyman.

- Sap max at Master, maybe. I don't remember if Assassin could master sap or not.

- Hide/sneak should max at Master.

- Swap things so that you get Scan initially, but have to branch Search.

- Branch kick instead of bash. Kick feels more like a ninja thing to have.

There is no chop/slash in infiltrator. Or are you suggesting it be added?

Agree about kick - bash and shield use in general seem less suited to city combat/stealth. Riposte (working with piercing) would make better sense to me than shield. It just seems like kick/riposte are better suited to the quick sneaky types and shield/bash to strong combat types.

I like Vox's idea of blowgun use being on the start tree.

Also,

Branching off sneak/hide sucks, for everyone.

+1

[number13]

There is no chop/slash in infiltrator.

Infiltrator currently gets chop and slash up to Advanced.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Infiltrator

[Heade]

Miscreant is the prime spy class.

Infiltrator sacrifices that, to achieve master backstab and more combat viability.

Currently, infiltrator trades many utility skills to obtain master backstab and a master ranged ability, when compared to Miscreant, who also caps combat abilities at advanced. From what was stated previously by Brokkr, Infiltrators also don't have a higher starting combat skill than miscreants, as the only classes that got the higher starting combat skills were the heavy combat classes like enforcer. This is what infiltrator gives up for master backstab:

Lowered skill caps to the following skills to advanced: sneak, hide, climb, pick(must branch), poisoning, sleight of hand, hunt, listen, peek(must branch), scan(must branch), search, watch, forage

Doesn't get these abilities at all:  steal


That is FOURTEEN utility skills that infiltrators give up to Miscreant in order to get master backstab and master throw/crossbow, with a branched bash. I don't think both classes having master stealth skills would particularly encroach upon the Miscreant's "specialty". An infiltrator should be able to infiltrate, after all, and stealth is one of the primary methods of doing that. Insofar as the infiltrator class goes, it's essentially their ONLY coded way to do that.

Honestly, I think it's problematic that there seems to have been a decision made that no one with master backstab be allowed to have master stealth skills, even if that class gives up combat utility when compared to heavy combat classes. It almost seems like someone has a problem with the entire idea of a stealthy assassin-type character being viable.

But those opinions aside, a fully branched Infiltrator seems like they'd be less useful as an assassin in many cases than a fully branched miscreant, due to getting master stealth, master poisoning, and advanced brew, with many of the same combat abilities as the infiltrator. I see that as a problem, when Miscreant is also a far better spy, burglar, pickpocket, explorer, counter-agent, and so on.

I haven't once heard anyone say they were excited about the infiltrator class, though there have been numerous people saying they like Miscreant. That is indicative of an imbalance, in my opinion.

[Miradus]

I love miscreant. It's hands down my favorite class now. It's got all the tricks available that a city bugger needs, either out of the box or available without a ridiculous amount of grinding.

Infiltrator ... I feel meh about. Your mileage may vary but my experience shows that backstab is too situational and niche to give up ALL THAT for. When I'm gonna kill someone, I've got lots of options on the table to do it and I just don't need the one-hit-kill. It's a double-cheese pizza ... good, but not necessary for your enjoyment.

However, pure conjecture here, I don't know that "advanced" is "advanced" across the board. There's a 20 skillpoint range there for an advanced skill. If miscreant caps at the very first point of advanced, and infiltrator caps at the last point of advanced before master, then you've got a huge difference in combat skill there. An infiltrator is 20% a better fighter than an equally tuned miscreant.

But again, that's also situational. In the mean streets, nobody is going to get in an evenly matched fight outside of the sparring circle. If I think my target has a chance of winning, I bring another guy.

I think infiltrator is fine for a core killer, but I just never want to give up that much utility.

There's three things that have to line up for a concept to work ... people always forget the third one, I feel:

Class + subguild + environment.

An infiltrator who joins the Jade Sabers is going to have that environment really panned out. An infiltrator who works alone out of the rinth is going to struggle much harder to really reach any decent potential.

Enforcer though ... needs serious work. Without scan you're like a limping gazelle on the Serengeti. A raider/thief makes a better no-karma option than almost anything you can pair enforcer with.

[Bogre]

Well, the problem is that Enforcer + extended sub works better as an infiltrator than an infiltrator does, in both stealth and combat capabilities.

Without extended subs, infiltrators basically only get backstab early and at a lower cap, to the detriment of combat skills over enforcer and utility/stealth skills over miscreant. You're starting with backstab but unfortunately with a lot of key limitations.

If they had higher stealth from the get-go, you'd increase their niche, and they'd be a great target for a diverse subguild choice. They'd eventually get better combat capabilities than miscreant (with the wider skill ranges and caps) at the cost of utility. And if they had low master stealth (assassins of yore) and miscreants get higher master stealth (a la burglars of yore) I think it'd be good. And then compared to enforcer, you'd have better stealth and quicker access to many of the key skills, with a much easier time diversifying your skill set with subs than enforcer. (Because to bolster the stealth part from the gate you need a more redundant sub with Enforcer).

I think that would leave things in good balance, and make Infiltrator an attractive choice for:

Combat stealth folks who want to craft a bit
Mystical assassin-y types
Decent out-of-the-gate thug types
Soldier-police types

[MeTekillot]

To be fair, the one extended sub that gets master stealth is having its stealth reduced, is it not?

[Vex]

Currently, infiltrator trades many utility skills to obtain master backstab and a master ranged ability, when compared to Miscreant, who also caps combat abilities at advanced.

Master backstab is an incredibly powerful skill, when used to it's fullest advantages. Infiltrator is the ONLY class to get it the skill with a masters potential, without requiring a brutally punishing grind first. I don't even consider Enforcer backstab, as something within the realm of possible for anyone with something approaching a healthy career/social life, or endeavors to play interesting characters. The only pc I met, who had adv. weapon skills, for example, was someone who logged off or idled all night, and cheesed to such an extreme during the day, he must have had staff in his pocket, to get away with it. It was utterly, totally comical, and I used to fight gortoks in the dark for gains.

So, thats saying something, about the requirements for enforcer master backstab.

Infiltrator is, imo, the only class who gets it without karma requirements.

Lowered skill caps to the following skills to advanced: sneak, hide, climb, pick(must branch), poisoning, sleight of hand, hunt, listen, peek(must branch), scan(must branch), search, watch, forage

Doesn't get these abilities at all:  steal

Every class must branch, and if you take notice of the full breadth of the classes available, you will observe that survival and craft classes get many more master skills than mixed combat classes. Infiltrator is a mixed combat class, with a focus on assassin-like killing skills, so they get some of the best pvp skills in the game, all at once.

Master backstab is the wettest of dreams, and the focus of many players who want to show everyone whats up. It is very, very powerful when used correctly, and it should come with a cost. For assassins of old, it was being an extreme glass cannon. If you didn't kill your target in the opening moves, you were deep in the shit, friend. Very deep.

Now, you can survive those dozen seconds quite well, and have two built-in anti-flee skills, as well as subdue. I really feel subdue is underrated and needs more love. With less tunnel visioning on skill ranges, and a greater focus on their synergies and themes, it makes much more sense, the decisions that were made for most classes.

Scout vs Stalker, is much the same. You choose scout and receive serious wilderness killing power, or Stalker for the survival and utility. They are two sides of the same ranger, without being able to do everything, alone. That is the nature of this new beast.

That is FOURTEEN utility skills that infiltrators give up to Miscreant in order to get master backstab and master throw/crossbow, with a branched bash. I don't think both classes having master stealth skills would particularly encroach upon the Miscreant's "specialty". An infiltrator should be able to infiltrate, after all, and stealth is one of the primary methods of doing that. Insofar as the infiltrator class goes, it's essentially their ONLY coded way to do that.

Yes, it almost looks like the inverse of infiltrator... where you have to choose between better combat skills and killing power, and survival skills and easier quality of life. You cannot do everything masterfully, all alone. My miscreant will be a better survivor, and your infiltrator will be a better predator. If we work together, we will be difficult to overcome. Alone, we're viable in our niche, but not beyond.

That, imo, was the entire point.

Honestly, I think it's problematic that there seems to have been a decision made that no one with master backstab be allowed to have master stealth skills, even if that class gives up combat utility when compared to heavy combat classes. It almost seems like someone has a problem with the entire idea of a stealthy assassin-type character being viable.

It's the new system, a system of choices. You may have your killing power, but at a cost. You may have your untouchable stealth, but at a cost. You may have your melee dominance, but at a cost. If you're one of the fortunate enough to have karma, you can circumvent most of the sting that comes with those choices, but you still have to choose.

But those opinions aside, a fully branched Infiltrator seems like they'd be less useful as an assassin in many cases than a fully branched miscreant, due to getting master stealth, master poisoning, and advanced brew, with many of the same combat abilities as the infiltrator. I see that as a problem, when Miscreant is also a far better spy, burglar, pickpocket, explorer, counter-agent, and so on.

If thats your preference, choose miscreant.

I do agree, that Infiltrator needs some small adjustments, but I don't feel that providing them with master stealth is the solution. The way scan has been allocated across classes and subs, advanced stealth skills are viable, if not an invisibility spell that it is, at master. Due to the higher difficulty or raising sneak/hide to master (less city pcs with master scan), most of the time on my miscreants has been at advanced, and I've overall not had any real problems.

I haven't once heard anyone say they were excited about the infiltrator class, though there have been numerous people saying they like Miscreant. That is indicative of an imbalance, in my opinion.

It's indicative of what most players are looking for, imo.

There is not a huge subset of players, who are building a character from the ground up, to be an efficient pk machine. In my observations, I found most players to be more interested in playing house, procuring wealth via pve and crafting, and having a lot of sex. There are many people who are, definitely, opportunistic pvpers, but they're typically the pve/social/sex crowd looking for some excitement, without a lot of the risks and challenges that comes with being a raider, dedicated assassin, or other pc-ending antagonists.

Infiltrator is, were I to make a city focused ender of lives, the class I would choose. I would choose enforcer/slipknife over it with karma, but karma is... not a good indicator, of balance, or fairness.

I do feel, it needs some looking and adjustments, before it would appeal to me and what I look for in classes, but... I don't think turning it into an assassin of old, with none of it's drawbacks, is the solution, or a benefit to anyone.

[Heade]

My miscreant will be a better survivor, and your infiltrator will be a better predator.

The problem is, this isn't true. An infiltrator who relies on stealth in order to deliver those master backstabs is at a significant disadvantage under this system. A miscreant with master stealth has a better shot at getting where he needs to be and delivering an effective, poisoned backstab than the infiltrator does, and that's supposed to be the infiltrator's main selling point. I'm not sold, and neither are you, as you've stated already that infiltrator isn't a class you'd pick.

But those opinions aside, a fully branched Infiltrator seems like they'd be less useful as an assassin in many cases than a fully branched miscreant, due to getting master stealth, master poisoning, and advanced brew, with many of the same combat abilities as the infiltrator. I see that as a problem, when Miscreant is also a far better spy, burglar, pickpocket, explorer, counter-agent, and so on.

If thats your preference, choose miscreant.

I will likely choose neither, because I'm not looking to play an assassin right now. I'm making this case on behalf of players who do, and should I ever decide to in the future. The answer to a non-effective class should never be "choose a different one". If that were the case, why have infiltrator at all?

I do agree, that Infiltrator needs some small adjustments, but I don't feel that providing them with master stealth is the solution.

Look, I'm not suggesting that infiltrators be given the same toolbox as miscreants, but it's a fact that stealth directly synergizes with the defining skill of infiltrators(backstab), and their stealth is set to cap at a level in which just practicing their trade carries a particularly high chance of failure even at max skill. When paired with the fact that often, failure = death, I don't think this is an acceptable state of affairs. Infiltrator doesn't get better at backstabbing successfully by working with a miscreant. As a matter of fact, nothing will make them better at that, short of changing their skillcaps and giving them the coded ability to properly get into position to use it.

So this "balance decision" does nothing to lead to players needing to work together more. It simply eliminates a character archetype from the game, making arm even less deadly as a whole. It basically just makes it to where no character in the game can have both master backstab and master stealth, despite those skills synergising and making absolute sense to be able to have on a character.


PS: Despite my jolly roger avatar, I personally have a penchant for playing social characters as opposed to combat PCs. I'm not arguing in the interest of my own characters here, but rather in the interest of what I see as being best for the game. As a matter of fact, making this argument goes against many of my own PCs interest since several "social" classes get fairly high scan, and thus such a change would make it more likely for those classes to be effectively assassinated by a master infiltrator. And I think they -should- be able to be effectively targetted by those types.

[Miradus]

Scan will usually not save you from a dedicated hit. If I've put effort into killing YOU specifically, then scan isn't really going to prevent you from dying. Ironically LISTEN will do more to keep you alive than scan as it's a passive skill that'll alert you without you having to HOPE you notice that shadow.

However, scan helps you avoid being the random target of people whose skills are not yet top notch.

An infiltrator with stealth gear, who knows the game code (particularly crimcode), and with high end agility ... is going to be a monster. Even at advanced stealth. I've noticed I often have a hard time getting my stealth to progress above journeyman when I have extremely high stealth. Because you just don't fail much.

Of all the players I've killed, most have been done via treachery and betrayal, not game mechanics. Death comes swift in Zalanthas, most often by the hand you trust.

[Vex]

The problem is, this isn't true. An infiltrator who relies on stealth in order to deliver those master backstabs is at a significant disadvantage under this system. A miscreant with master stealth has a better shot at getting where he needs to be and delivering an effective, poisoned backstab than the infiltrator does, and that's supposed to be the infiltrator's main selling point. I'm not sold, and neither are you, as you've stated already that infiltrator isn't a class you'd pick.

I wouldn't pick it, because I don't play with the focus of being an optimal PK. If I did want to focus on that, it is the class I would choose, even as it is, because of the skills afforded and how useful they are, to those ends. I think you're underselling the value of the skill set the class has and the viability of advanced sneak/hide under the current class system.

It isn't flawless like master sneak/hide, but if you want that bad enough, there are two classes that specialize in it.

I do agree, that infiltrators could use improvements; I do not agree, with giving them the farm.

I will likely choose neither, because I'm not looking to play an assassin right now. I'm making this case on behalf of players who do, and should I ever decide to in the future. The answer to a non-effective class should never be "choose a different one". If that were the case, why have infiltrator at all?

The answer to, "I like miscreant better!" is always going to be, "So play a miscreant!".

Look, I'm not suggesting that infiltrators be given the same toolbox as miscreants, but it's a fact that stealth directly synergizes with the defining skill of infiltrators(backstab), and their stealth is set to cap at a level in which just practicing their trade carries a particularly high chance of failure even at max skill. When paired with the fact that often, failure = death, I don't think this is an acceptable state of affairs. Infiltrator doesn't get better at backstabbing successfully by working with a miscreant. As a matter of fact, nothing will make them better at that, short of changing their skillcaps and giving them the coded ability to properly get into position to use it.

So this "balance decision" does nothing to lead to players needing to work together more. It simply eliminates a character archetype from the game, making arm even less deadly as a whole. It basically just makes it to where no character in the game can have both master backstab and master stealth, despite those skills synergising and making absolute sense to be able to have on a character.

Yes, you are.

You're asking that the specialization of two classes, be transferred to Infiltrator, because you want one of, if not THE most powerful player killing skills in the game, with master sneak and hide. On top of all the other skills infiltrators already have, that are rather powerful in their current combination. Without giving anything up, or suffering the heinous defense malus that balanced the old assassin guild.

If you feel it is critical you have both, you can sub for it, at the cost of heavy redundancy, and missing out on other beneficial options.

I feel as if, I have had this discussion before...

PS: Despite my jolly roger avatar, I personally have a penchant for playing social characters as opposed to combat PCs. I'm not arguing in the interest of my own characters here, but rather in the interest of what I see as being best for the game. As a matter of fact, making this argument goes against many of my own PCs interest since several "social" classes get fairly high scan, and thus such a change would make it more likely for those classes to be effectively assassinated by a master infiltrator. And I think they -should- be able to be effectively targetted by those types.

I do believe, you play social/political characters. Yes.

I've noticed I often have a hard time getting my stealth to progress above journeyman when I have extremely high stealth. Because you just don't fail much.

I feel this, needs more attention.

It is very true.

[Heade]

Look, I'm not suggesting that infiltrators be given the same toolbox as miscreants

Yes, you are.

No, I'm not. Asking that infiltrator come with backstab and stealth capped at master isn't taking the other TWELVE utility skills that miscreants are better in.

You're asking that the specialization of two classes, be transferred to Infiltrator

Miscreant can hardly claim to be "specialized" into stealth considering the multitude of other utulity skills they get at master. Giving 2 classes master stealth doesn't make miscreant worse, or in any way a less optimal option for sheer versatility. It just allows infiltrators to better do what they're supposedly designed to do.

If you feel it is critical you have both, you can sub for it, at the cost of heavy redundancy, and missing out on other beneficial options.

Actually, you CAN'T sub for it now. They've lowered slipknife to advanced stealth skills, per Brokkr, which is one of the reasons why this is so impactful. There is literally NOTHING you can do to have the following 3 skills at master on 1 character: Backstab, Sneak, Hide.

Unless staff let's you make a custom character of some sort, which I don't even know if they still do via special apps.

[Heade]

Also, with that "sub for it" comment, you're assuming everyone playing is running around with 2 karma to pay for that sub. I'd like to know what percentage of the active player base is at what karma levels, but until I know that, I'm going to assume Karma isn't common enough to make it the norm for balancing things like this.

[Armaddict]

You actually have it backwards, Vex.

The infiltrator is surpassed in lethality by both the enforcer and the miscreant, and all of your hubbub about master backstab is incredibly flawed as far as actual practical use of skills.  Thus, the -survivalist- infiltrator, as it stands, will actually be more eager to kill rivals early, not leave them, because it has no real endstage survivability against most of its alley-colleagues.

As someone who plays a lot of stealth, and has almost 0 aversion to PK, I can tell you that giving better stealth skills does not tie in with a PK monster, but it does tie in with options.  Frankly, I find your assertion that giving master stealth skills to the infiltrator makes it a PK machine to be incredibly one dimensional and indicative of blinding yourself.  As Brokkr noted, he has an aversion to the assassin playstyle and that's why he didn't like it, but over the course of time, you're going to see less people playing the class, and more people who do play it dedicated to kill first, ask later, when playing it.  And it won't be their fault, because they simply can't depend on survivability while being hunted, and they only lose advantage as time goes on.

It's a very faulty skill-balance along the criminal side of the class tree, which I went on at great length about during the announcement.  All the wariness and uptight moderation around PK balance has resulted in a very short-sighted approach to the creation process that is almost self-fulfilling prophecy in the long run.

Reiterating again what I said then...pick lock, climb, master stealth, and 'passive' criminal skills belong in the light mercantile criminal class, and the 'active', engaging, lethality-based skills belong in the light combat criminal class.  The mixed gets both, but lower maxes in all of it.

In terms of 'sub for it', that's a pretty much snide response to the acknowledgement that things are indeed skewed in a really fuckin' weird way.  The fact we're calling a class from the 'mixed' tier THE specialist in anything is bonkers.

[Miradus]

Having encountered him on both ends of the shiv, I can say he doth know of what he speaks.

In terms of gameplay, let me explain a little about the non-code dynamics of PK.

I take someone down. They're stunned. I have a choice at that point. Kill them, or let them go. Maybe they get robbed, maybe they get maimed. Unless they've been identified to me as a threat before, I'm going to generally let them go.

But the way that is going to play out after is that they're going to then immediately run to the Templars, or to whomever they're clanned up with, and revenge gets plotted.

With a miscreant, as the revenge gets enacted, there's going to be some substantial cat-and-mouse going on before it resolves. It makes good stories, and SOMEONE is getting a good ending for their character out of it.

As an infiltrator, you've got all the skills needed to kill, and few to survive the counterstrike. The only way you're going to let that stunned victim up is if you're suicidal.

You can't really make money like a miscreant or a pilferer (or even a fence) so your hidden bribery skill is going to be weak. You can't run off into the wilds to live until the heat dies down because you have no other utility. You're going to be a walking, kalan-picking dude to survive until they find you or you get so bored you store. You can become a rooftop one-room wonder with city forage if you want, but that's about it.

[Inks]

Yes, the class is seriously gimped due to foolishness. Perhaps because the guy making the classes didn't like assassins? Who knows.

Master hide/sneak would be enough to make the INFILTRATOR  class better, not like INFILTRATING requires stealth.

Enforcer : Better than infiltrator in almost every way.

Miscreant: Master hide/sneak skills and assassin skills to advanced.

What the hell.

Armaddict has it on point with his last post.

[seidhr]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

[MeTekillot]

But I want to be an elite ninja.

[Inks]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

If you could compare infiltrator to the other criminal classes it would be for the game's benefit though.

Don't get me wrong assassin was hard to be effective at, I like the new classes . But infiltrator has a strange skillset.

Bash?

Advanced stealth skills when criminal players have known many soldier npcs have master scan for years, including spawned HGs.

Regardless I am not saying the class is unplayable. It just is weak compared to the actual elite combat ninja you have created (enforcer).

Also weak compared to the ultimate thief/spy/burglar class (miscreant) Combat wise as well.

[Armaddict]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

...Miscreants can still do this, and the entire discussion is based on how that weighting between classes seems off.  Not that some magickal thing needs to be returned to the game.  The above literally makes no sense in any context.

[Inks]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

...Miscreants can still do this, and the entire discussion is based on how that weighting between classes seems off.  Not that some magickal thing needs to be returned to the game.  The above literally makes no sense in any context.

Also this.

Also why does miscreant get master poison and Infiltrator get advanced, likely below the level you can see what something is poisoned with?

[number13]

If you guys would broaden your horizons away from "being an elite ultra-ninja, able to hide in plain sight and be undetectable by all means is required in order to be a viable PC" it would really be for your own benefit.  I'm just saying. 

Crime code overhaul would fix people thinking they need to be undetectable by all means.

I don't have any good ideas on how to change things, exactly. It's just -- I don't care if a PC finds my master criminal. That's fun. Dying to ultra buff NPCs is boring, on the other hand.

[Synthesis]

I haven't played an infiltrator, so my opinion is theorycrafting.  However....

1. Crossbow use?  Pointless.
2. Advanced shield use? Pointless.
3. Chopping and slashing? Pointless.
4. Advanced sneak/hide/climb?  I have very strong doubts about the utility here.
5. Bash? Pointless.
6. Jman subdue? Strong doubts about the utility. Especially since I strongly suspect that city-elves are the only race that will get any utility out of advanced sneak/hide/climb.
7.  Jman pickmaking? Good luck with that.
8. Peek without steal is a blatant encouragement to PK.
9. Master backstab, as far as I can tell, is not a significant improvement over advanced backstab, except when backstabbing a target under a couple of uncommon circumstances.

Overall...not impressed.  Especially when you compare them to the scout skillset.  Seems like the main reasons to pick infiltrator are: 1) if you don't want to burn your subclass by going enforcer/slipknife to just start with backstab, or 2) you can't be arsed to grind throw on a miscreant.

[crymerci]

7.  Jman pickmaking? Good luck with that.

It is a bit silly that no one gets above advanced in pick-making, and that infiltrator gets better at cooking than pick-making. There should at least be a Master Locksmith advanced sub.

[Dar]

This may be because the recipies to Picks.. it is an unfortunate fact that picks cant have many difficult to procure ingridients, except metal. Otherwise its just a sliver of one singular material with hooks. At the same time the better quality picks should be complicated to make. So the way its represented is that advanced pick making is enough to make high quality picks, but the failure rate is so high, nobody will flood the market with high quality picks.

The nature of bueglaruly is such that a city cannot maintain more yhrn 2 active burglars without invalidating core aspects of owning apartments

[flurry]

7.  Jman pickmaking? Good luck with that.

It is a bit silly that no one gets above advanced in pick-making

Fences do, actually, according to the help files.

[crymerci]

7.  Jman pickmaking? Good luck with that.

It is a bit silly that no one gets above advanced in pick-making

Fences do, actually, according to the help files.

Interesting, I didn't even think to check that one. (Just came back to the game after many years away.)

[Inky]

As an in between enforcer and miscreant I think it's fine? And it gets the minor advantage of a higher backstab cap?

I think the only problem is that you need to game it a bit and prioritize agility and get some stealth gear to sneak like an oldschool assassin. The only classes that will spot you will be miscreants and the occasional laborer or stalker that are playing indoors. And they'll fold like paper plates if you just happen to spot them and attack them.

I think we got ourselves a decent threshold of choice on the utility-combat spectrum.

[Nao]

I haven't played an infiltrator, so my opinion is theorycrafting.  However....

1. Crossbow use?  Pointless.
2. Advanced shield use? Pointless.
3. Chopping and slashing? Pointless.
4. Advanced sneak/hide/climb?  I have very strong doubts about the utility here.
5. Bash? Pointless.
6. Jman subdue? Strong doubts about the utility. Especially since I strongly suspect that city-elves are the only race that will get any utility out of advanced sneak/hide/climb.
7.  Jman pickmaking? Good luck with that.
8. Peek without steal is a blatant encouragement to PK.
9. Master backstab, as far as I can tell, is not a significant improvement over advanced backstab, except when backstabbing a target under a couple of uncommon circumstances.

Overall...not impressed.  Especially when you compare them to the scout skillset.  Seems like the main reasons to pick infiltrator are: 1) if you don't want to burn your subclass by going enforcer/slipknife to just start with backstab, or 2) you can't be arsed to grind throw on a miscreant.

Assuming they get similar climb and stealth levels as the pilferer - those are far from useless and work quite nicely. Pickmaking lets you work on your pick skill at any level, instead of desperately trying to find lockpicks, paying a fortune, then breaking them after three tries. It's good. Peek is nice for elves.

I'll leave it to someone more combat-focused to comment on the combat skills.

Edit: At a second thought, by the time you branch pick making, you probably have a good source for lockpicks already and don't break them often anymore.

[MeTekillot]

class is named infiltrator but is not the best class for infiltrating? ok seems legit

[roughneck]

There are 15 classes to pick from. There's bound to be some that are 'better' than others, or at least some that are way more popular than others. Infiltrator wouldn't be my pick most of the time, but if this class had master stealth, who in their right mind would ever choose Enforcer? Then we'd be having conversations about how to make that class more competitive and attractive.

I think we as players usually want a class that will make us the most badass, the 'master' in whatever field or vocation our character is going to be in. We don't like settling for our character just being 'good' at something. We want to type 'hide', 'shoot', 'backstab', 'whatever' and have 100% confidence that our character will execute with immaculate precision because as players we know the math behind it. We want to play deep, interesting characters until it comes to skills, then we want robots.

I can see master sap making sense if the class already gets master backstab, or some of the other suggestions in this thread. But, I'm more interested in playing with this whole new class system for a while to see how it works out. I think it will be interesting having a lot more imperfect skillsets, yet having a broader dispersion of skills and combat ability overall. My hope is that the result is more 'nail-biter' situations, where fights are close and brutal. The system we are coming from was pretty one-sided if you knew what you were doing and played to your guild's strengths. For those who were able to exploit the strengths that guilds like assassin and ranger had over others, the power can be difficult to let go of. Hopefully the change makes the game more fun for everyone and less dominated by a few.

[sleepyhead]

I've said it plenty of times before, but I think the root problem is a problem with the stealth system. It's very gamey and binary. You're either invisible (to everyone without high scan) or you're just standing out in the open. There's no way for people without scan to check common hiding places, and there's also no way for a sneaky to know he didn't unstealth 5 rooms back and is now just walking around like an asshole. So the way the whole thing works is weird.

I suspect that the reason people really hate advanced sneak/hide is not necessarily because they need it to be perfect all the time so they can play out their uber-ninja power fantasy, but because you have no way to know whether you are successfully hidden. And if you're not, it's not that your hiding place kinda sucks and someone might suss it out more easily. You're just standing there with your mouth open for everyone to see. And no one can even tell that you are trying to be subtle. So that sucks, especially when you factor in the swift brutality of the crimcode.

I think if we had a more dynamic stealth system involving partial failures that could cause people be easier to spot, rather than totally exposing them without providing any clue that they are exposed, we might see less complaining about sub-master stealth skills.

[Synthesis]

The problem with advanced sneak/hide isn't whether someone can spot you with scan or not.  It's whether or not you passed your hide check at all.

In order to risk doing anything where you might get a crim-flag, you at a minimum have to have a high probability of passing 4 consecutive hide checks:  1) for your initial hide; 2) to move into the room next to the NPC soldier; 3) in the room with the NPC soldier; 4) room past the NPC soldier.

Doing some basic math, here.  Let's say skills are on a scale of 1-100.  Advanced starts at about 60%.  With no stealth gear or agility bonus, at minimum advanced, you have a 60% chance of passing a single hide check.  Your chance of passing 4 consecutive checks is .6*.6*.6*.6 = about 13%.  That's unacceptable.

Top of the advanced range is around 79%.  Your chance of passing 4 consecutive checks is about 39%.  Still absolutely unacceptable risk.

Obviously, I'm not exactly sure where agility (or lack thereof) becomes a bonus or an actual penalty.  I'm not exactly sure what gear is +hide/sneak.  I can make some guesses, but that's about it.  Obviously, my numbers are a little off, because as I've stated, I've recently passed 30 consecutive hide checks at master hide, which would only have a probability of 21% at a 95% base hide chance.  -Maybe- the hide/sneak skills are layered such that at the top ranges, you have a very high chance of passing the initial hide check, and the extra points are only for defeating scan/listen.

However, like I've complained before, when the extended subguilds first came out, I played a c-elf warrior/rogue with vgood agility, and the ability to pass just a basic hide check (vs. non-scanners) at advanced hide, while wearing common 'rinth gear, seemed little better than 50/50.

I'm willing to give Staff the benefit of the doubt that they've actually tested the utility and found it acceptable--until I've actually played an infiltrator--but I feel like sometimes they look only at the code, and not how it actually plays in-game.

[Heade]

Infiltrator wouldn't be my pick most of the time, but if this class had master stealth, who in their right mind would ever choose Enforcer?

Anyone for whom backstab is an ADDITION to their character concept rather than central to it, since enforcers have a difficult path to branching it anyhow. Enforcers are basically warriors, starting with significantly improved combat stats compared to infiltrators and higher caps for combat abilities across the board.

If you pair enforcer with something like outdoorsman, they're a pretty flexible city/wilderness character overall that has essentially the best core combat skills in the game, and they get backstab and sap at master later, just for kicks. There are plenty of other combinations that would be similarly effective for enforcer due to enforcers high skill caps in all the combat skills.

[seidhr]

The problem with advanced sneak/hide isn't whether someone can spot you with scan or not.  It's whether or not you passed your hide check at all.

In order to risk doing anything where you might get a crim-flag, you at a minimum have to have a high probability of passing 4 consecutive hide checks:  1) for your initial hide; 2) to move into the room next to the NPC soldier; 3) in the room with the NPC soldier; 4) room past the NPC soldier.

Doing some basic math, here.  Let's say skills are on a scale of 1-100.  Advanced starts at about 60%.  With no stealth gear or agility bonus, at minimum advanced, you have a 60% chance of passing a single hide check.  Your chance of passing 4 consecutive checks is .6*.6*.6*.6 = about 13%.  That's unacceptable.

Top of the advanced range is around 79%.  Your chance of passing 4 consecutive checks is about 39%.  Still absolutely unacceptable risk.

Obviously, I'm not exactly sure where agility (or lack thereof) becomes a bonus or an actual penalty.  I'm not exactly sure what gear is +hide/sneak.  I can make some guesses, but that's about it.  Obviously, my numbers are a little off, because as I've stated, I've recently passed 30 consecutive hide checks at master hide, which would only have a probability of 21% at a 95% base hide chance.  -Maybe- the hide/sneak skills are layered such that at the top ranges, you have a very high chance of passing the initial hide check, and the extra points are only for defeating scan/listen.

However, like I've complained before, when the extended subguilds first came out, I played a c-elf warrior/rogue with vgood agility, and the ability to pass just a basic hide check (vs. non-scanners) at advanced hide, while wearing common 'rinth gear, seemed little better than 50/50.

I'm willing to give Staff the benefit of the doubt that they've actually tested the utility and found it acceptable--until I've actually played an infiltrator--but I feel like sometimes they look only at the code, and not how it actually plays in-game.

The cap for the rogue subguild is at the lower end of advanced.  The cap for infiltrator is at the upper end of advanced.  Your math for how the checks work is also off, because skills usually don't cap at skill level 100.

I think the name for the infiltrator class maybe isn't the best choice, because sure - it's not as good at infiltrating as miscreant - but it fights quite a bit better.

[Brokkr]

I'm willing to give Staff the benefit of the doubt that they've actually tested the utility and found it acceptable--until I've actually played an infiltrator--but I feel like sometimes they look only at the code, and not how it actually plays in-game.

I have years of experience as a player with the code.  Then I looked at the actual code.  And then I put together a spreadsheet to analyze the stealth code.  You don't mention two huge factors in deriving the reasonably approximate percentage, and mention but don't take into account a third.  I am not sure how you would expect your numbers to be anywhere close to reasonable.

I took all those factors into account, which players could well be not even aware of, given that most people seem to have just gone by getting their skill as high as they could to deal with stealth.  It is a bit more nuanced now.

As for Infiltrator, it was meant to be the middle ground between enforcer and miscreant.  Some of the combat power from one side, some of the survival power from the other.  Was it meant to be the best at infiltrating ever?  No.  I didn't approach any of the classes based on giving them what the name suggested.  I tried to give names to skillsets.  And even then...player professed "useless" skills like chopping/slashing/bash are still useful for "infiltrating" someplace like the Byn and not have them figure out you are a stealth class?

I'm not sure where apparently I've said I hate the assassin play style?  There wasn't a place for a class that was as strong in all aspects of assassination as the assassin was in the new dynamic.  Stealth was not nuanced at all.  And, of course, the desire that an Infiltrator, or any other class, doesn't need to always play like one thing.  They don't need to be an assassin.

[Synthesis]

1) I don't know all the factors that go into the stealth equations, because I'm not on staff, and I don't have anyone leaking code to me.  My back-of-napkin-math assumes ceteris paribus for the purpose of being concise and generalized.

2) I do, however, have reliable methods of testing whether sneak and hide are working, which is really all that matters.

3) Chopping/slashing are useless because weapon skills take so damn long to improve that it would be pretty foolish to try to game that.  Infiltrators already have to train piercing and bludgeoning.   Getting both of those to (advanced) is a monumental task.  In other words, anyone could just carry an axe around and pretend to have the skill.  To convince people that you actually -have- the chopping skill and you aren't a sneaky-rogue-type, you'd have to spend so much time training chopping weapons up that by the time you're done with it, you may be permanently adversely affecting your ability to train your core weapon skills.

[Armaddict]

As for Infiltrator, it was meant to be the middle ground between enforcer and miscreant.  Some of the combat power from one side, some of the survival power from the other.

Despite people's conception that I'm out here screaming for the assassin class, this is actually my concern above.  The miscreant is supposed to be a mix between the combat and non-combat, but instead has been made into a specialist of that genre.  Because of the gameplay of that genre, the criminal, it has resulted in greater lethality than its light combat adjacency.  Increasing stealth was brought up as a compromise to allow the infiltrator to have the same 'genre' of lethality that the miscreant has, but do it better.

In the original class feedback thread, I suggested other courses as well, such as removing parry from the miscreant or removing its ambush potential.  But if you're looking to keep miscreant the same, than making it 'inherit' its combat lethality from the more combat-heavy class seems appropriate.  I lean more heavily towards making the 'mixed' tier actual masters of nothing; they will not be the specialist of their type, they will just be able to engage competently in all of it.

Was it meant to be the best at infiltrating ever?  No.  I didn't approach any of the classes based on giving them what the name suggested.  I tried to give names to skillsets.

You've reiterated this several times and I don't put stock in the names based off those responses.  We did warn you though, that misnomers as class names were going to get brought up all the time.

And even then...player professed "useless" skills like chopping/slashing/bash are still useful for "infiltrating" someplace like the Byn and not have them figure out you are a stealth class?

Valid, but ultimately kind of counterproductive to count that as a 'boon' of the skillset when it doesn't really align with the rest of the skillset.  We've already discussed how much the infiltrator sacrifices for these boons, but counting them as boons makes it altogether against the point.  One of the criticisms I had was that it looked like we had too many skills crammed into too many classes, making a very 'everyone gets everything except crafting skills' feel.  I think specialization in weapon classes for each theme, with 'general' receiving the most and best diversified weapon skills, addresses this best.  Let subclasses go for the rest of it, which people keep saying about every other criticism of skill levels.  If a criminal class wants to use axes?  They should probably sub for it or play the enforcer, the pure-combat themed criminal character.

I'm not sure where apparently I've said I hate the assassin play style?  There wasn't a place for a class that was as strong in all aspects of assassination as the assassin was in the new dynamic.

In the class discussion page, when this previous relationship between miscreant/infiltrator was already being discussed, you made mention of not wanting the assassin gameplay present in the new system.  I'd argue that the infiltrator spot is perfect for that gameplay, insofar as you aren't treating the mixed tier as a specialist tier instead of a...well...mixed one.

[Armaddict]

Another concern that I had, with a new idea (which may be ported over to the current subclass discussion):

I talked about the poisoning skill, how it was odd that the mixed class got the best poisoning with it generally being a lethality-based endeavor...have we ever considered capping it to high journeyman on -all- main classes that got it, and moving mastery of it to a subguild or two?

Idea being...it's a very Apothecary-like thing to be that confident with mixing and handling of high-risk solutions.  If you have to sacrifice a subguild of utility for one in specialization, we'd still have master poisoners, no doubt...but we'd also probably see a true rise in the use of common poisons vs extreme ones.  Might just be a band-aid, but it would also address one of my personal 'wtfs' about the relationship between the two, and maybe have a nice influence on the game world as a whole as well.

[Brokkr]

Still don't see anywhere I said I hate assassins.  I said things about assassins, but I think if you read over it, you'll find nothing I said was related to my personal view of them.  The game style was simply spread over three classes.

At some point I consciously moved away from using "mixed" like Nergal had to using "survival".  This was specifically because there aren't two poles for the dynamic, there are three (combat, survival, crafting).  So its not a simple linear progression.

[Miradus]

Brokkr, how "finished" are these classes?

For instance, might we expect eventually pilferer to branch parry like adventurer? Or Enforcer to get scan like raider, etc?

[Brokkr]

We are already moved on to other things.

Maybe someone revisits them someday, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to do so before enough time has passed that folks can relay their experiences, rather than their theorycrafting, with them.

[Armaddict]

At some point I consciously moved away from using "mixed" like Nergal had to using "survival".

So...combat...to survival...to crafting, but with survival gaining as strong of combat skills as the space between?  Or strong enough that they no one will tell the difference between them until longevity on the characters comes, aside from that the survival tier is just more usable in most ways up until that point?

All I know is that I see a burglar+pickpocket class that is less helpless in combat and we're saying that's the survival tree despite them being the most able to wreak havoc and be most aggressive due to the most reliable escapes and safety in creating advantages, and the class-type that seems most suited to catching it is unable to past 3 days of playing time, when its advantages are supposed to be in full swing from early combat gains.

Maybe drop miscreant's scan?  Make the most stealthy the least able to hunt other stealthies?

[Delirium]

I'm reading over this thread and honestly the only real takeaway I have is backstab is not the holy grail of an assassin.

It's one tool in the box of someone who wants to be a professional killer. If you feel like you can't have a successful killer without master hide + master backstab, I don't know what to say that will make you feel better, but I disagree. Furthermore, I think you're all getting too caught up in this theoretical silent ninja-esque killer archetype.  Don't get a perfect kill? Good. That creates interest. Want to be perfect? Too bad, this is Armageddon.

The potential roles these skillsets offer is also far broader than the one issue that is being worried about here.

[Armaddict]

I'm reading over this thread and honestly the only real takeaway I have is backstab is not the holy grail of an assassin.

It's one tool in the box of someone who wants to be a professional killer. If you feel like you can't have a successful killer without master hide + master backstab, I don't know what to say that will make you feel better, but I disagree. Furthermore, I think you're all getting too caught up in this theoretical silent ninja-esque killer archetype.  Don't get a perfect kill? Good. That creates interest. Want to be perfect? Too bad, this is Armageddon.

The potential roles these skillsets offer is also far broader than the one issue that is being worried about here.

Despite people's conception that I'm out here screaming for the assassin class, this is actually my concern above.  The miscreant is supposed to be a mix between the combat and non-combat, but instead has been made into a specialist of that genre.  Because of the gameplay of that genre, the criminal, it has resulted in greater lethality than its light combat adjacency.  Increasing stealth was brought up as a compromise to allow the infiltrator to have the same 'genre' of lethality that the miscreant has, but do it better.

In the original class feedback thread, I suggested other courses as well, such as removing parry from the miscreant or removing its ambush potential.  But if you're looking to keep miscreant the same, than making it 'inherit' its combat lethality from the more combat-heavy class seems appropriate.  I lean more heavily towards making the 'mixed' tier actual masters of nothing; they will not be the specialist of their type, they will just be able to engage competently in all of it.

The discussion is not 'Give me hide with maxxed backstab' or 'I can't be a professional killer now', it's that miscreant will do everything the infiltrator does better -except- join the Byn, which is not exactly a far broader role set as you say.

The repeated defense against these things is that there's some sort of selfish ulterior motive rather than people looking at a brand spankin' new class list and saying that it could use tweaking to more fully encompass the capabilities of each -and- put them objectively side by side for how they interact.

[Miradus]

We are already moved on to other things.

Maybe someone revisits them someday, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to do so before enough time has passed that folks can relay their experiences, rather than their theorycrafting, with them.

That's all I needed to hear. Thanks.

I like the new classes, and while I personally would have moved some tacks around on the bulletin board here or there, I don't have any major quibbles. I have more than enough choices available to me now, if the karma regen bug gets fixed.

[Synthesis]

I'm pretty sure miscreants aren't going to top out combat-wise better than infiltrators, unless the folks who put the classes together totally dropped the ball.  But...again...I'd have to max out one of each to be certain.  There could be in the vicinity of a 15-20 point difference in what "advanced" means to each one of those.  That's a lot of points for a weapon skill, and it isn't taking into account base O/D or training rate.

However, I will say that old-school pickpockets could get -way- better at combat than anyone ever gave them credit for on the GDB.  It's just that most people couldn't keep a pickpocket alive long enough to see the day.

[mansa]

I'd like to change the name.

"rouge"

"outlawl"

"subtley"

"assasssin"

"assailant"

"goon"

[Cind]

Aren't we theorycrafting a little bit early? Maybe we should play these new dudes for sixteen months and then we'd be a lot more informed. That's enough for most people to max out a few right?

I got to say, I'm real interested in some of these sneaky types.

[Inks]

The only class the infiltrator should be compared to is the scout (wilderness equiv.)



I still think infiltrator loses out in this case, due to wilderness forage being powerful etc. Anyway.

Spawing HGs and all these warrior npc guards with master scan is concerning with the new levels though.

I think we are all theorycrafting a bit as Cind said, but wilderness quit, food forage, increased regen put the scout ahead IN MY OPINION.

Scouts have a lot of potential income due to skinning and crafting skills. Infiltrator can't make income like miscreant can, and can't survive like miscreant or enforcer can, with a lower sap cap than enforcer to boot.

..I broke my own comparing rule. Anyway, just my thoughts, leave it like it is I don't mind. If we could make assassins work we can sure as shit make infiltrator work.

[number13]

Infiltrator can't make income like miscreant can

Untrue.

[Inks]

Elaborate.

[crymerci]

Infiltrator doesn't get steal, so there is one way that statement is true.  Another skill could be used creatively to bypass that.

[Heade]

I guess, ultimately my question comes down to this...why make a class no one will play?

Infiltrator can't fight toe to toe as well as an Enforcer, who gets almost everything an infiltrator gets, only with better skill caps.
Infiltrator can't stealth or utility anywhere close to as well as a Miscreant.
Infiltrator ends up being less lethal than either of them due to a lack of synergy in their abilities.

Aren't we theorycrafting a little bit early? Maybe we should play these new dudes for sixteen months and then we'd be a lot more informed. That's enough for most people to max out a few right?

I don't think maxing them out is the end-all of balance, though. The journey matters. The end result for infiltrator is that, once maxxed, they are far less effective toe-to-toe than an enforcer, and less lethal overall than either enforcer OR miscreant. And on top of that, they have a tougher journey to max due to what needs to be branched and such than miscreant.

[number13]

>why make a class no one will play?

Untrue.

There are a few things I wish were different about the infiltrator, but it's not as bad as people are making out to be.

[Heade]

>why make a class no one will play?

Untrue.

There are a few things I wish were different about the infiltrator, but it's not as bad as people are making out to be.

So you would choose infiltrator over enforcer or miscreant, for some reason?

[number13]

So you would choose infiltrator over enforcer or miscreant, for some reason?

To mix stealth + combat potential with subclass that has nothing to do with stealth or combat.

Enforcer would be a decent choice, but having to branch sneak/climb would be a pain in the ass, and backstab/sap are essentially impossible to branch on enforcer for regular play. They don't get scan, hunt, or pick.

Miscreant would be a great choice. Miscreant is overpowered compared to the rest of the criminal classes, and picking it is never a bad idea. Firstly, that's a problem of the Miscreant getting too much shit, not of Infiltrator getting not enough shit. Miscreants shouldn't have so much combat potential.  Secondly, my suspicion (which might be wildly incorrect) is that Advanced combat skills on Miscreant cap out sooner than Advanced combat skills on Infiltrator.

If I'm wrong about that, and something like parry or piercing is the same level of Advanced on both classes, then, yes, picking Infiltrator is a dumb mistake, but only because Miscreant shouldn't have all those toys in one package.

That said -- there are problems with Infiltrator. They should get Master sap and perhaps be able to branch a one or two more of the combat skills -- like kick and threaten.

[Armaddict]

I'm honestly growing to be more and more of a fan of just bumping infiltrator's scan and removing it from miscreant.  Lower miscreant parry.

It's just weird that the premiere 'criminal class' (by this I mean the class that preys upon the average populace with crime), the burglar+pickpocket with combat skills, is also the one that is best suited to finding other stealthies, i.e. In gameplay terms, you'd want to hire miscreants to combat miscreants in most scenarios.  My qualms with infiltrator are that it genuinely feels like that niche, the criminal anti-criminal, should go in that spot, in terms of being squished between enforcer and miscreant.

Edit:
This is the part of 'assassin' gameplay that I look at the most as hard to let go of.  Assassins were a criminal class...but they were essentially just a city ranger, versatile for most city roles in the game that involved city-based clans.  That's a lot less prevalent now with most of the clans closed, but assassins found a home everywhere, while burglars and pickpockets really were kind of pushed into serving those purposes.  It was less about 'Oh, I want maxxed hide and all that'.  It was just the versatility for a city-based character.  A city ranger.  Where miscreant now serves that role best, along with the direct criminal enterprise as well, I'm seriously scratching my head as to why I'd ever choose infiltrator -except- in the case that during character creation, I decided I wanted to fool with people guildsniffing me.

That would be a weird character concept.

Edited again:
I realize that versatility is present in the miscreant.  Just that it having -all- of the versatility to a better degree without really sacrificing much is why this keeps being something I'm pointing at.  Only adding this because the previous edit made it sound like 'oh no, no more assassin gameplay'.

[Nao]

You would choose infiltrators because you want more pure combat oomph than the miscreant (yes,it has been stated that the light combat guilds cap out higher), but still want access to pick, don't want to branch backstab and have better stealth/utility than the enforcer.

The weapon skills of the light combat classes cap out near where the old warrior class was, I think they are close to warriors in combat ability (just missing a few skills, and maybe capping out a bit lower for non-weapon combat  skills). Miscreants don't get that. The Enforcer does, but they don't get the utility, need an endless grind to get backstab, and stealth caps lower.

[Cind]

>why make a class no one will play?

Untrue.

There are a few things I wish were different about the infiltrator, but it's not as bad as people are making out to be.

So you would choose infiltrator over enforcer or miscreant, for some reason?

I think its inevitable that there are going to be classes the population prefers over others, and also classes that do not specialize in one group of skills, you know. If you play Dungeons and Dragons, the rest of the party sometimes prefers you specialize in one class, and do one thing well. Noncombat skills matter ever more in this game, and not specializing can really hurt you.

But there's people like me who sometimes don't want master hide or master slashing weapons in exchange for story props, which is what I think they ended up making the nonspecialized classes for. For example, maybe you pick infiltrator and play a thief for a couple of years and then reform and join the Arm. In exchange for not being the best pc soldier there, you have the chance to play this story, AND know mirrukim at the same time, because that was important for some reason. (I think I remember doing something like this once; I literally couldn't do the story without knowing dwarvish.)

Let's wait a while and see, I want to see which class is gonna be the next ranger.

[sleepyhead]

As someone who sucks at the horrid grind of this game and thus has pretty much zero chance of ever maxing out any weapon skill ever, I see no reason to pick infiltrator. I feel like there should be some reason to pick infiltrator for the people who aren't good at maxxing out those difficult to maxx skills.

[mansa]

I think Infiltrator should get:

Master Hunt
Master Scan
Journeyman Haggle

And then change it's name to 'thief catcher'

[roughneck]

I think Infiltrator should get:

Master Scan

I think this would make for an interesting balance with miscreant.

[Inks]

The whole point of these changes was that there is no next ranger.

[Nao]

As someone who sucks at the horrid grind of this game and thus has pretty much zero chance of ever maxing out any weapon skill ever, I see no reason to pick infiltrator. I feel like there should be some reason to pick infiltrator for the people who aren't good at maxxing out those difficult to maxx skills.

What makes Infiltrator different from the other light and heavy combat classes in this regard?

[number13]

What makes Infiltrator different from the other light and heavy combat classes in this regard?

The heavy combat classes have a lot of combat skills that can be grinded up relatively quickly, ie, not weapon or stances.

[MeTekillot]

The whole point of these changes was that there is no next ranger.

Not sure that's correct. Who gets master scan?

[Cind]

Miscreant gets master scan, hide, sneak and listen and I'm fairly sure its the only one who does.

[flurry]

Miscreant gets master scan, hide, sneak and listen and I'm fairly sure its the only one who does.

Stalker does too, if you replace listen with listen_wild.

Laborer also gets master scan.

(Side thought: Why isn't scan divided into city/wilderness versions? Or is it? I can't keep up.)

[Brokkr]

Because listen has two different functions.

[Vex]

Because listen has two different functions.

I consider myself, fairly code savvy. However, I don't actually understand the specifics, of why it was split, and what the differences are.

I may simply be overlooking the help files, but I could not find them, on the website. Could some be added, with details of the difference between the two? Even if it's explained here, this will fall off the radar eventually, so a help file would be ideal.

[mansa]

Because listen has two different functions.

I consider myself, fairly code savvy. However, I don't actually understand the specifics, of why it was split, and what the differences are.

I may simply be overlooking the help files, but I could not find them, on the website. Could some be added, with details of the difference between the two? Even if it's explained here, this will fall off the radar eventually, so a help file would be ideal.

"Listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can make noise."

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Listen

[Vex]

I've seen that file, yes, but it does not have mention of there being two versions, or what the differences are.

An update, or creating a new one, to include both versions of the skill and any difference between them, so that players know how best to utilize it, would be for the best. I would assume, there is more to it, than "one works in the bar, the other works in the tree fort".

[crymerci]

The other function is overhearing conversations that you wouldn't otherwise hear, which I'm not sure how you would explain a wilderness vs. city version of.