Mundane Subclass Feedback

[hyzhenhok]

Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

[hyzhenhok]

Accidental double post. Sorry.

[Cind]

A human, I think, should be able to know a little bit of elvish, to upper novice or apprentice, without either being a secret breed or also knowing mirrukim. Its not a big deal code-wise, but I always felt this was one of the basics that people should be able to choose, to raise a glass and ask 'Ale?' or to say Hello, Goodbye, Yes or No. Elves aren't so utterly powerless that they can't be useful or necessary to certain humans who would use their services, without including dwarves in their dealings. A Templar should be able to be 'learning' cavilish or elvish, their aides as well, House merchants, sneaky types, but the way the game works right now, branching a language might never happen, even if you spend 10,000 on lessons over several years. Having a few subclasses where the language is poor but already branched has infinite story possibilities.

[roughneck]

Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

Outdoorsman is advanced archery, not mastery, and less than advanced isn't useful enough to justify CGP spend. By capping the stealth and scan at advanced, and only journeyman hunt, I think it's a reasonable 2-CGP subclass. The only thing worth consideration with this sub is that previously the lack of the ride skill in Outdoorsman was more significant. Now that other skills will be factored into riding ability, it's maybe not a big deal that this sub doesn't have that skill. Advanced direction sense is table steaks for any desert class.

As for Slipknife - master stealth is what justifies the high CGP spend, the other stuff in there isn't worth it, especially with the number of guilds that get poisoning now.

I can only think of one combo that will really piss people off - Enforcer/Slipknife or Enforcer/Outdoorsman. Enforcer/Slipknife gives a PC the combo it seems staff is trying to avoid of master stealth+master backstab, and Enforcer/Outdoorsman (if riding ability has changed sufficiently to allow them to ride effectively) will make this combo more effective in a lot ways than the Raider class.

Slipknife/Outdoorsman paired with any of the other classes isn't a big deal from a PvP standpoint. Miscreant/Outdoorsman is still worse off than a Stalker, and Stalker/Slipknife is still worse off than Miscreant in the city. 

[Brokkr]

We aren't confining ourselves to looking only at PK potential.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I've always been a fan of adding content rather than taking things away. If a subclass or extended subclass seems strong, I say just add something to the others to make them equal. With the diversity offered in the new classes, subclass synergy, imho, will be lessened to some extent for classes with similar skills, and expanded for choosing something vastly different.

Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice. 

[John]

I'm going through the subclasses to look at how they stack up against each other. I haven't played any non-karma subclass in a long time (except for Physician), but when I did I loved tailor and jeweler. So when assessing the other subclasses these are my gold standard.

Tailor
Skills: advanced in haggle, dyeing and clothworking. They can also learn toolmaking to the level of journeyman.

This is a very self-sufficient subclass. They can not only make clothes (which do require a substantial cost investment to start with) to advanced but they can sell them to advanced. If you want to play a tailor this subclass has everything you need to be completely self-sufficient.

It's also very complimentary to most classes. The only classes that you wouldn't combine this with are Artisan, Dune Trader, Fence, Craftsperson, Pilferer.

Jeweler
Skills: advanced in feather working and jewelry making. They can reach the level of journeyman in value, toolmaking and haggle

This class is less self-sufficient. It doesn't require a substantial coin investment (you can use whatever rocks you find), but it doesn't grant forage either. However unlike skills that tailor is reliant on, everyone except the heavy combat classes get quite high forage. Given the high synergy between jeweler and most subclasses, I also think it's justified in not having haggle to advanced considering most classes will find the raw materials with no difficulty.

Armormaker
Skills: advanced in armor repair, leather working and armor making. They can reach journeyman level in tool making.

This needs a small boost to bring it up to the level of Tailor and Jeweler. Like jeweler there isn't a high coin investment required. Unlike jeweler, armormakers need to risk life and limb much more commonly then jewelers do. I think moving leather working down to journeyman and putting in haggle into advanced would be appropriate. Leatherworking is a side-skill to the concept of armor making so would be more appropriate at a reduced cap.

Weaponcrafter
Skills: advanced in knife making, sword making and spear making. They also can attain the level of journeyman in tool making.

This is the worst of the crafter subclasses. If I play a jeweler, I can make jewelry. Whether it be bone jewelery or gems or feathers. As an armormaker, not only can I make armor, I can repair it and use the off cuts to make leather goods. As a weapon crafter I can make swords, knives and spears. No clubs, no axes. Armormakers aren't restricted to just helmets or hide armor, nor are jewelers or tailors.

To bring weaponcrafter up to the same level of the other crafting subclasses I'd recommend club making, axe making, sword making and spear making. Have haggle go to journeyman. That's 5 skills (same number as jeweler). They're still not self sufficient and are missing knife making and fletchery, but it does let them play the concept of a weapon crafter for the most part. Because at the moment soldiers make better weapon crafters then the crafting subclass.

My revision would make it have good synergy with any of the combat focused classes (except for soldier) just as tailor and armor maker have good synergy. even soldier might still take it for early access to the weapon crafting skills.
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More thoughts to come later.

[Strongheart]

Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice. 

Every PK against me has been via stealth-based characters (assassins) in someway or another. Most of them also possess one of the most powerful PK skills in the game known as blowgun_use. Master stealth/hide is essentially invisibility made invincibility.

With this in mind, they're even better now than they used to be.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice. 

Every PK against me has been via stealth-based characters (assassins) in someway or another. Most of them also possess one of the most powerful PK skills in the game known as blowgun_use. Master stealth/hide is essentially invisibility made invincibility.

With this in mind, they're even better now than they used to be.

Only if they succeed right? If they fail, they can have their ass handed to them or be exposed. Which might as well be a death sentence.
Think of it this way. Take away their stealth and ability for assassination, what do they have? And this is coming from a person who has played maybe two assassins out of over a hundred pc's.

[Strongheart]

If they fail, which is unlikely because most assassins have agility as a priority stat, then sure! But that goes for any and all characters who happen to fail at the worst of times. Characters in the assassination business typically have backup plans, and versus a fighter with zero perception skills, they could get away from their failure somewhat easily.

The worst part about playing stealthy characters that I have found is that people tend to metagame when it convenient such as somehow picking you out in your day clothes despite your face being hidden away in your night clothes. And don't even get me started about how some players describe others by their sdesc such as, "Yeah, I saw a tall male with pale skin run past here." when their sdesc is "the tall, pale-skinned male".

Sure, sneak-based characters can have it rough but so can anyone else, and no one can deny the power of any of these sneaky classes. I am sort of getting off-topic here but the amount of PKs that do happen astound me. As soon as someone starts to play against say a powerful figure IG as an underdog, they are then disposed of almost immediately when they show even just a little confrontation. It makes adversarial roles boring or pointless in my opinion because that character will be grouped up on or in some way taken care of permanently.

Anyway, that's all I really wanted to say on the matter. These new classes are fantastic!

[John]

Physician
Skills: Physicians are able to reach the level of advanced in bandage, brew, bandage making, floristry and forage.

So this subclass has everything they need for their core concept, plus floristry. They are missing haggle which has a less reduced If anyone more knowledgable then me knows a good reason to have floristry, I'd recommend removing that and putting in journeyman haggle.

Linguist
Skills: Master sirihish, allundean and mirukkim. Boosted start at learning northern, southern and 'rinthi accents.

This isn't a great subguild. I'd be inclined to put bendune on there and perhaps removing the accent boost and instead give them haggle to journeyman. As it currently stands it's a great subclass for a high mercentile or spy class, but otherwise not very self-reliant compared with tailor or jeweler. Give them haggle and they're still a good choice for high mercentile classes and spying classes, but they then become an alright choice for combat focused classes.

Bard
Skills: advanced in sleight of hand. Listen, haggle, watch and instrument making to journeyman level. Bonus to languages.

This isn't a good subclass. Sleight of hand is only a good skill if you want to poison someone, attack them without them seeing, steal something and then hide it in your belt or cheat at cards. The classes that get poisoning are scout and stalker. Scout doesn't get listen so that's good synergy there, but stalker does. Also are desert-based characters really going to benefit from sleight of hand at a thematic level? Everyone else who has poisoning has sleight of hand.

Listen is good to everyone who doesn't already have it, but sleight of hand isn't because most people who have that will already have listen (only exception being Enforcer).

The only reason to have instrument making on the bard subclass was because of the Tuluki bardic circle requirements. They're no longer playable, so let's give the bard subclass skills that let them pull off the bard role.

A bard should be someone who can communicate with a wide variety of cultures. Get stories from a wide group of people, if you get found by a desert elf who wants to slit your throat, offer to regale them with a tale or a song in return for your life.

As it is anyone can be a bard. There's no actual bard-related skills required to pull off the concept. So I would say make it mirror the linguist subclass but instead of haggle, give them listen. Listen lets them overhear conversations and the language skills let them understand what they hear. This is useful to anyone who doesn't have listen or has listen but doesn't have the language skills at chargen.

Crafter
Skills: advanced in basket weaving, clay working, stone working and foraging.

So crafters only get 4 skills which is on par with tailor in terms of raw skill. But let's not pretend that basket weaving is a real skill. So that's really just 3 advanced skills. I'd give them haggle to journeyman which is a pretty potent combination when combined with advanced crafting and foraging, but it is compensated by the fact they don't have the strongest crafting skills in the game.

Archer Bowyer or Fletcher
Skills: Advanced level in fletchery, feather working and bow making. Journeyman level ability in archery, dyeing and direction sense.

This is more of a crafting subguild then an archer subguild. I would suggest renaming this to Fletcher or Bowyer. Keep all of the current advanced skills. Remove archery, dyeing and direction sense and give them haggle and toolmaking.

Hunter
Skills: advanced in ride. Journeyman in archery, hunt, skinning and direction sense.

So looking at tailor which gives you 1 key skill (clothmaking) to advanced and then supporting skills around the concept, I'd call the 1 key skill in this case Archery and then other skills to support that.

So I'd go something like this: Advanced in archery and hunt. Journeyman in skin, direction sense and ride.

Ride to advanced was powerful before the ride changes. My understanding is that weapon skills can now pick up the slack so journeyman ride is still helpful.

Bounty Hunter
Skills: Advanced in ride and direction sense. They can learn subdue, sap and hunt to the level of journeyman.

In this case I see subdue, sap and hunt as the key skills, so I would actually just reverse these. So change them to: advanced in subdue and sap. Journeyman in ride, hunt and direction sense.

Caravan Guide
Skills: Master in bendune. Advanced in ride and pilot. They can reach the level of journeyman in value and direction sense.

I see direction sense and ride as the key skills here. So I would go: Master in Bendune. Advanced in direction sense and ride. Journeyman in pilot.

Pilot can be good, but as a caravan guide you should be checking for traps and ambushes outside the caravan. Value just comes out of nowhere. Without haggle I don't see why bother.

Outlaw
Skills: Advanced in knife making, spear making, armor repair and direction sense. They can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb.

To me an outlaw's key skills are climbing and not getting lost. Climbing is great for making a get away while direction sense lets you ride into a sandstorm to lose anyone following you. Without hide, sneak isn't particularly potent to avoid being found. The other skills are more support skills.

I'd change it to: Advanced in direction sense and climb. Journeyman in spear making, armor repair and ride.

Mercenary
Skills: Advanced in ride, knife making, armor repair and watch. They can also attain the level of journeyman in direction sense. Mercenaries begin play with an increased capacity to tolerate alcohol.

With the new classes armor repair isn't such a great choice for a mercenary now. It benefits neither fighter nor soldier. Raider, scout, stalker, enforcer, infiltrator and miscreant benefit, but the desert ones don't benefit from direction sense. It makes no sense to have mercenary benefit the criminal classes most.

Instead I would suggest the following skills: advanced in scan, haggle and watch. Journeyman in direction sense and ride. Mercenaries begin play with an increased capacity to tolerate alcohol.

Again enforcer still benefits most from the subclass. But fighter doesn't get scan but does get watch and raider doesn't get watch but does get scan. I can't see a way around that to then give the subclass both. Haggle helps with looting dead corpses and getting good coin for what they have remaining (plus it's thematic to have a mercenary haggle over the price of a contract). The other skills then help support that concept. Knife making and armor repair are handed out via classes now whereas before they weren't. Otherwise other subclasses can grant that if you don't want any other skills.
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More thoughts coming at a later time.

[Veselka]

That's some useful dissection. Thanks for taking the time to do that, John.

[Strongheart]

Agreed!

[John]

Thanks guys. Hopefully staff find it helpful and/or others in putting down their own thoughts on what changes they want to the subclasses.

Here's a review on nomad. This was more difficult because (I did it on my phone on the bus and) the desert themed skills already capture the tribal idea so well (with the exception of not having bendune).

Nomad
Skills: Master in bendune and tribal accent. Advanced in ride, spear making and direction sense. Journeyman in haggle.

This is a flavour subclass that people are going to take if they want to play a tribal. Therefore this class should have good synergy with the desert classes first and foremost. My understanding is that accent is determined by origin city. Therefore having the tribal accent here seems redundant.

Bendune should be kept with allundean added on. Dwarves and city elves get sirihish for free because it's the most common language in their region. Fences get allundean because it is spoken by mean entire region of the Labyrinth. It's one of the most common languages in the desert and yet not a single desert class gets it. So giving it to the nomad subclass is good synergy.

I would keep direction sense at advanced. This is bad synergy, but it lets a nomad choose a city class and still have a key survival ability. To offset this I would also give bandage at advanced for raiders (who already get direction sense) which doesn't benefit the city classes. Finally armor repair at advanced would be a good supplementing skill.

For a small journeyman skill I'd keep haggle. It means all tribal characters are passable at bargaining, but it helps give them a supplemental skill and it makes sense that they'd be good at bartering rather than relying on set prices.

So in summary: Bendune at master. Advanced in allundean, direction sense, bandage and armor repair. Journeyman in haggle.

That might seem like a lot of skills. But anyone who benefits from direction sense will probably already have bandage or haggle as a class skill. So to help offset the fact most classes will overlap with nomad for one or two skills an extra skill or two has been given to them.

[John]

Forester
Skills: advanced in woodworking, lumberjacking and axe making. They can reach the level of journeyman in hunt, skinning and direction sense.

I would double down on this being a forester/Hunter type role. However where the hunter relies on archery, I'd keep them with axe wielding.

Advanced in chopping weapons and two-handed. Journeyman in hunt, direction sense and skin.

Con Artist
Skills: advanced in hide, watch and sleight of hand. They can also achieve the level of journeyman in haggle and value.

I don't understand what this subguild is trying to do. It's just bad. Thieves steal. Thugs sap. I'd give con artists pick.

So for advanced I'd give them pick and hide. At journeyman I'd give them listen, scan and haggle.

They're not going to be able to sneak into places with apartments without a class that gives sneak. But if they can convince someone to escort them past (like a con artist would) then they're good to go. Listen means they can double as a spy, but being capped at journeyman means it isn't reliable.

Gladiator
Skills: apprentices at fighting with slashing weapons. They are capable of learning kick, bash and disarm to the level of journeyman. Gladiators begin play with a slightly improved ability to withstand pain.

I think capping slashing at apprentice is a mistake. All of the crafting weapons grant advanced in a single craft, which impinges on the crafts person class. Combat should do the same for fighter.

So advanced in slashing weapons and dual wield. Journeyman in bash and hacking.

Woodworker
Skills: new subguild.

This would take over the woodworking angle from Forester.

Advanced in woodworking and haggle. They can reach the level of journeyman in lumberjacking, toolmaking and axe making.

In this case axe making grants them lumberjack related tools.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread.  What subclasses are the best?  Which are the worst?  Why?  Are some subclasses missing something?  Do some subclasses do too much?  Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills?  Anything else relevant you can think of.

Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:

• This is for mundane subclasses only.  Please no magick talk.
• There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
• Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.

Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill.  Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill.  Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.

[frankjacoby]

Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

Slipknife is not a mundane subclass

[mansa]

Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

Slipknife is not a mundane subclass

No, but it is 1 karma.
Compared to the other 1 karma subclass, it gives master level skills while the other ones only give advanced.

I also think it should be moved to 2 karma... It have master dropped to advanced.

[Brytta Léofa]

Slipknife is not a mundane subclass

It's...magick? ?   ?     ?

[Delirium]

Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.

[Brokkr]

Slipknife is a mundane subclass.

Extended subclasses are fine to discuss.

Magick subclasses are not.

Mundane in this context wasn't mean to mean ordinary, it was meant to mean non-magickal.

[sleepyhead]

I think it was just supposed to be a joke about how great and OP slipknife is. It transcends the mundane.

[Brytta Léofa]

I think it was just supposed to be a joke about how great it OP slipknife is. It transcends the mundane.

That wooshing sound was the joke flying over my head.

[flurry]

Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.

This made me think about what a Master Florist subclass would look like.

floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage

[John]

I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread.  What subclasses are the best?  Which are the worst?  Why?  Are some subclasses missing something?  Do some subclasses do too much?  Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills?  Anything else relevant you can think of.

Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:

• This is for mundane subclasses only.  Please no magick talk.
• There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
• Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.

Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill.  Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill.  Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.

Fair point.

Broker: Have my posts been helpful at all? If the answer is no I'll stop. Otherwise I'm happy to keep going.