Mundane Subclass Feedback

[John]

Skill in a weapon absolutely affects more than just your ability to defend against it.

Sorry. I meant "in addition to contributing to offense" because that was just obvious to me so I didn't say it even though it would have made what I was saying clearer.

[sleepyhead]

If you think people will still choose those classes, that's fair enough, but I'm not sure they're worth a whole 2 karma anymore now that everyone gets a weapon skill of some kind out of the box.

[Brokkr]

I'm going to leave this thread open another week (coincidentally, perhaps, a week I am on vacation).  Will be closing it when I get back on the 15th or 16th.  If you want to present your ideas, that is how long you have to do it.

[mansa]

Having to redo the subclasses is tough.

We have options for:

0 Karma
1 Karma
2 Karma

I think it would help to have a 'game design plan' or 'goal' for 1 Karma classes and 2 Karma classes.

0 Karma - My suggestion is to duplicate the 3 x 5 grid for regular classes, just keep the skills less and cap at advanced?

1 Karma - Various Master Crafting, and maybe 'journeyman' weapon skills?   advanced stealth and weapon skills?  Deeper crafting tree?

2 Karma - Master weapon skills, master combat and stealth skills?

[Trent]

Under that system people with no karma will be powerless peons no matter how long they have their character.

[Narf]

Having to redo the subclasses is tough.

We have options for:

0 Karma
1 Karma
2 Karma

I think it would help to have a 'game design plan' or 'goal' for 1 Karma classes and 2 Karma classes.

0 Karma - My suggestion is to duplicate the 3 x 5 grid for regular classes, just keep the skills less and cap at advanced?

1 Karma - Various Master Crafting, and maybe 'journeyman' weapon skills?   advanced stealth and weapon skills?  Deeper crafting tree?

2 Karma - Master weapon skills, master combat and stealth skills?

Rather than power gating karma, I think staff would be far better served by pain-in-the-ass gating. I'd suggest reworking the subguilds from the perspective that higher karma classes are those that require more staff-side support and effort or are more open to abuse, while low karma guilds require little or none, but are otherwise on par in power.

This is much more in line with the original purpose of karma. There's not much reason why a new player to the game can't make a character that is codedly powerful, but there's plenty of reason why they should wait before playing characters that are easily abused or require a lot of staff imput.

[Narf]

Edit: Double posted instead of editing my post like I'd meant to.

[number13]

Higher karma subguilds, if they exist, should give you more power up front -- more pre-branched skills, higher starting skills -- but cap out at the same place as the lower karma subguilds.

[najdorf]

IT would be a very bad game design if higher karma grants higher caps. I wouldn't play the game as a starter, if I knew I'm handicapped from the start.

[Cind]

I agree with the thoughts on weaponcrafter. In the witch class days, I was an unmanifested witch for a month living solely off the fruits of my subclass in Allanak. There was one other person doing this, and it was obvious in the shops, since all either of us could really make and sell was swords. Its really difficult to get ingredients for spears offpeak and many combat role people can make knives. I say its not just a good idea; weaponcrafter needs a revamp.

[roughneck]

I think, if anything,higher karma should have lower starting skills - veterans know he to train skills up. Give the newbs a fighting chance! Don't let karma turn into some kind of player caste, the more equal footed we all are the better.

Karma is to restrict rare races and classes to keep the game world rich, because rare things should be rare. It also gives people that stick around a chance to keep the experience fresh with something new.

If it were up to me, I would make all subclasses 0 karma. Leave karma for magic and races.

[Brokkr]

• There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.

Please stay on topic.  Subclass karma and how that will work is specifically designated as out of scope.

[stoicreader]

0 karma sub guild = +2 skills of your choice cap at journeyman
1 karma = +3 skills of your choice cap at advanced
2 karma = +4 skills of your choice cap at master
3 karma = have whatever you want.

[CodeMaster]

[roughneck]

Physician (0 karma):
- advanced bandage
- advanced brew
- advanced bandage making
- advanced floristry
- advanced forage

Apothecary (1 karma):
- master bandage making
- master floristry
- advanced bandage
- advanced forage
- (branches to) advanced brewing

I think for the one karma Apothecary should get poisoning to advanced as well. Branch it off brewing.

[John]

Physician (0 karma):
- advanced bandage
- advanced brew
- advanced bandage making
- advanced floristry
- advanced forage

Apothecary (1 karma):
- master bandage making
- master floristry
- advanced bandage
- advanced forage
- (branches to) advanced brewing

I think for the one karma Apothecary should get poisoning to advanced as well. Branch it off brewing.

I know when merchant existed I didn't bother choosing apothecary despite the fact extended subclasses were free because I didn't want to branch brew.

[yousuff]

Ever since I joined the game I've wanted to play a Nilazi or Elkrosian, both of which are gone Work on bringing them back in the new magick subguild system!

As for Mundane subguilds, why not one centered on the silt sea?
Silt Skimmer
Master pilot, advanced direction sense, Journeyman forage (fishing in the sea? Maybe forage for food outdoors?), Journeyman flee, journeyman climb (man overboard!)

[only_plays_tribals]

Nomad should give the ability to make wilderness camp (because they live outside in camps)

Grebber shoulder give the ability to forage food both indoors and outdoors (since it's the 'beggar' subclass IMHO)

Caravan Guide should give the ability to hitch more than one mount and tame animals (seems logical, needs to be able to rein animals effectively)

[only_plays_tribals]

Also as has been mentioned earlier in this thread

Archer seems more like bowyer as it stands, especially since the split of "archery" into subsets of ranged skills

As per current helpfile:
Archers are capable with all forms of missile weapons: bows, slings and crossbows.

I'd propose Archer be split into sub-categories:

Archer - Specifically the effective use of ranged weapons

Advanced Sling
-- Accurate, but cannot poison stones or has some limits on range, unable to obtain "very long range" slings (to my knowledge)

Journeyman Archery + Crossbow
-- Less accurate but able to use effectively

Advanced Fletchery + feather working
-- Still makes sense for crafting ammo.

Ditch Dyeing. Buy fancy feathers from a real crafter
Ditch Bowmaking. That's a really specialized skill and makes more sense for a specialized crafter
Ditch Direction Sense. You can be an archer who is trained indoors. Doesn't mean you can find your way in a storm.


Bowyer - Specifically the effective creation of ranged weapons

Advanced Fletchery + feather working + Bowmaking + Dyeing
-- the core crafting skills of a bowyer/fletcher

Journeyman haggle + value
-- to assist obtaining materials

[tapas]

Slipknife seems kind of overpowered. And at only 1 karma to boot.

Currently the only subclasses I see as go-to (for non-crafting) are slipknife and outdoorsman (2 karma). Now that most classes get weaponskills.

Moreover I don't think slipknife should get master sneak and hide when even infiltrator (the assassin expy) doesn't even get it.

[Brokkr]

Locking this topic as promised as I've started looking at the subguilds.

[Brokkr]

I made a thing.



It's Mansa's spreadsheet, updated for subclass revisions.

Skill level descriptions in green had the skill go up, or added.  Skill level descriptions in red had the skill go down, or removed.  Sometimes you will see a skill that has the same description as before, but it is either red or green.  This means the numeric value went up or down, but it is still within the same skill range that goes with that descriptor.  In general, the same skill will have the same values across a karma level, with a handful of exceptions.  Those exceptions should all have different word descriptions, and thus be obvious.

In general, I split skills up into either combat, survival, or crafting.  The following are general rules of thumb I used, may be a few exceptions to this here and there.  With the guild structure, every skill has a theoretical level it would be for each class.  So while a particular combat skill like slashing weapons may not be on any Heavy Merchantile classes, there is a value it would be at (the same as the weapon skills they do have) if they did have it.  That is what the below refers to, when referencing skill levels.

For 0 karma subclasses, combat skills are below what any class would get them at, survival skills are no better than the worst class, and crafting skills are no better than the second worst class.
For 1 karma subclasses, survival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.
For 2 karma subclasses, combat skills are no better than the 3rd best class, suvival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, and crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.

The idea was to tie subclass maximum skill levels back to skill levels of the classes, while recognizing that certain skills are more beneficial and/or allow more impact when used against other PCs than others.  Thus the tiering from combat to suvival to crafting.

For 1 karma and 2 karma subclasses, the split was determined by whether the subclass receives any combat skills.  If it does not, it is 1 karma.  If it does, it is 2 karma.

[Brokkr]

Thread opened for feedback.

[BadSkeelz]

Should aggressor and berserker get ripose and hack?

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Disclaimer: I'm editing this as I form more opinions. None of these opinions  are an attack on any staff member.

Cavalry is pretty weak for 2 karma. Many subguilds already give adv ride. Heck, for 2 karma I would expect master ride and at least journeyman dsense, alongside everything else already listed.

Likewise, Reaver and Swordsman aren't much to write home about.

And for a one karma, Master Woodworker gets too much. I would say lower club making and axe making to advanced but keep mastercraft capabilities on that?

Slipknife is now underpowered, honestly. The changes are fine for if it stayed one karma. I would keep hide and sneak at master for two karma.

I don't see why Cutpurse was changed.

Recluse is ridiculously underpowered. One whole karma just for the ability to quit wild and forage wild? I'd drop its dsense to journeyman and make it a 0 karma, or add adv forage.

Protector is now a bland sludge of "I'm advanced like the other guys". At least master rescue and guard, if not shield use, would be good.

Master Trader should get master value. No question about that IMHO. I understand no master haggle but MT barely even gives much. Either master value, or bump it up to two karma and give it master value, master haggle, AND mastercrafting flags for all crafts you can currently make. A high price buyin for the new MC changes would balance the board and give a better option than just sludging your subguild slot away for Master Crafter. I still believe Heavy Mercantile should get MCing but that's neither here nor there.

Why mess with Grebbers? Grebbers were fine. Honestly, Grebbers were probably the most fine subguild. It seems like a lot of these changes were based on a fear of allowing a subguild access to 'master' in something, but... Guilds also had the same changes applied to them. A lot of stuff was chipped down to 'high advanced'. Unless there's some secret cult we can get into where once we prove our worth we can apply to be a master in a skill, I don't see the benefit of this in the long run other than making everything one bland soup of averageness.

Likewise, Majormodos were fine, and didn't need to be a part of the Advancement Wave™.

On second look, Reavers and Swordsmen seem to be a subguild for 'check out this fancy new skill' regarding hack and riposte. But they should be one karma. As should Cutpurse and Slipknife. Or they should be buffed - all four of them.

Apothecarians were fine and great. The only change regarding apothecarians I would have suggested was weakening Physicians so choosing Apothecarian actually had some weight.

Why is everything on everything Advanced across the whole board? Where are the standouts? Where are the underdogs? Karma has no weight anymore. Everything is an Advancement Wave ™ sludge.

Pretty much every 0 karma subguild that was changed shouldn't have been changed other than Guard. 0 karmas didn't need a whole bunch of buffs. What's the point of picking 1 or 2 karmas now? Where's Physician's debuffs?

Why does Master Potter have Adv value? Why does Master Jeweller? I mean I understand Journeyman on Jeweller. But Potter shouldn't have it at all. What's the point of Master Trader if I can just go Jeweller for advanced value AND mastercrafting on jewels?

Marksman should have sling and blowgun dropped and moved to 1 karma, or master archery added.

The messing-with of Grebbers and Majordomo is still peeving me. Grebber doesn't need Adv climb. But it does need master forage.

I think that's every thought I have. Again, Big Disclaimer, none of this is an attack or an attempt of diminishing staff work. Just a first glance opinion regarding things.

One last thought: Wait, Grebbers are now forage and hunt CITY? ...But the helpfiles lay claims to Grebbers being able to scrounge for food outdoors, is their focus now being changed? Why? Most grebbing is done outside of the walls. This doesn't make sense.

Alright. I think I'm done NOW.