Mundane Subclass Feedback

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Sorry John. I wasn't at all trying to minimize your contribution. To be fair, I like many of your points.

[Brokkr]

It is good to get someone else's perspective, and I welcome everyone getting their ideas out there.  There is always that potential for the "I didn't think of that", even in cases when folks are coming at something with different perspectives.

In general, your suggestions tend to up the power of the 0 karma subclasses, in some cases quite dramatically.  The intent of this isn't to increase the relative power level of subclasses.  I wouldn't call what you have suggested as tweaking things so much as re-working them.  There may be cases where re-working is merited, but I doubt it will be a wholesale reworking of everything.

The only thing that really surprises me is I don't see where folks have amalgamated and processed what I have said over the new classes project and applied it to ideas here.  Example:  I've talked about what we are calling abilities.  I've said abilities can be tied to classes or subclasses.  You can see what abilities are tied to guilds currently.  No one has suggested a subclass that gives the ability to quit out in the wilderness.

[Delirium]

Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.

This made me think about what a Master Florist subclass would look like.

floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage

I love it.

[John]

Sorry John. I wasn't at all trying to minimize your contribution. To be fair, I like many of your points.

Not at all. It was a good point to make.

The intent of this isn't to increase the relative power level of subclasses.

Unfortunately the subclasses aren't all created equal. Tailor and jeweler are my go to 0 karma subclasses. Thief (which I haven't posted up yet) is IMO a complete trap option. The only way to equalise the subclasses would be to nerf tailor and jeweler and pick another subclass as the baseline power level or bring everything up to the tailor and jeweler power level. It's partly why I put in the feedback about tailor and jeweler because it demonstrates why I think those subclasses are as powerful as they are.

I wouldn't call what you have suggested as tweaking things so much as re-working them.  There may be cases where re-working is merited, but I doubt it will be a wholesale reworking of everything.

Fair enough. If I do something I don't like doing it in half measures

I'll keep going because I've basically finished the karma 0 classes (got a couple more on my phone that I can't get to right now). My thoughts on the karma subclasses are much less extensive.

The only thing that really surprises me is I don't see where folks have amalgamated and processed what I have said over the new classes project and applied it to ideas here.  Example:  I've talked about what we are calling abilities.  I've said abilities can be tied to classes or subclasses.  You can see what abilities are tied to guilds currently.  No one has suggested a subclass that gives the ability to quit out in the wilderness.

I missed the part where giving subclasses abilities was an option. The last subclass that had an ability (scavenger's ability to forage for food) saw that subclass removed from the game. Given how all of the classes had abilities I wasn't sure if giving them to subclasses was something that the staff were interested in given scavenger's fate. I'll be happy to suggest abilities for the subclasses as well. Some of them will pretty obvious (hunter should get hunting specialised for wilderness for example), but I'll go through the exercise nonetheless to see if anything not obvious pops up.

[John]

Thief
Skills: Advanced in sleight of hands. Journeyman in sneak, steal, peek and hide.

This is a bad subclass. Anyone who takes it has taken a trap choice. Tailor takes one master skill from artisan/craftsperson and then gives the subclass supplementary skills. So in my opinion all other subclasses should do the same.

In this case for thief the key skill is steal from miscreant. I would have that at advanced and peek and sleight of hand also at advanced to supplement it. I would offer haggle and value at journeyman so they can sell what they steal.

In this revision the thief has lost sneak and hide. These skills aren't good unless they're together and they're terrible at journeyman. Someone who tries to play a thief with the thief subclass is playing at hardcore mode. This could be an artisan or fighter who will rely on being overlooked as the likely thief. They likely won't live long. But such is life with pickpockets. I do think sneak, hide, steal and peek at advanced are just too many skills for one subclass. So I'm sacrificing stealth for doing 1 job and doing it well.

Thug
Skills: Journeyman in kick, subdue, sap, watch and bash.

So not a trap subclass, but still pretty awful. I see this as a subclass that takes from enforcer . The key skill is sap at advanced with hide and bludgeoning also at advanced. I'd give them kick at journeyman.

House Servant
Skills: advanced in pilot, floristry, cooking and hide. They can achieve the level of journeyman in listen.

Floristry is a dead skill on this subclass IMO. Cooking is also pretty bad as everyone except fighters, raiders and enforcers get it to advanced now. I'd give them pilot, listen and hide at advanced and scan at journeyman.

Guard
Skills: advanced in watch. journeyman in rescue, subdue, guarding and shield use.

The classes have changed so much this needs to change significantly. Advanced in guard and rescue is good synergy for raider, stalker, infiltrator and miscreant. Scan at advanced is also a key support skill, but one most of them have scan at advanced already so there's not much harm in including it. Subdue at journeyman can also be good.

Predator
Skills: New subguild.

Where thug gets bludgeoning, gladiator slashing, forester chopping. Predator gets piercing.

Advanced in piercing and two handed. Journeyman in scan, hunt and climb.

I'm trying to bridge the divide between city and desert with this one and not get too much overlap.
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Karma 1 subclasses

These are harder to judge. I see these essentially as karma 0 subclass++. That is how I will be reviewing them.

Apothecary, Master Tailor/Jeweller/Armorsmith/Chef/Potter/Weaponsmith
Apothecary Skills: master in bandagemaking and floristry. advanced in bandage, forage and brew.
Master Tailor Skills: mastery in clothworking, advanced level in haggle, tanning, and dyeing.
Master Jeweler Skills: mastery in jewelrymaking, advanced level in haggling, feather working, and stonecrafting. They can achieve a journeyman level in value.
Master Armorsmith Skills: mastery in tanning and armor repair, leather working and armor making. advanced level in haggle.
Master Chef Skills: advanced level in haggle, and master levels in skinning and cooking.
Master Potter Skills: journeyman level in value, an advanced level in haggling, and master levels in dyeing and clayworking
Master Weaponsmith: advanced level in haggling. They can achieve mastery in fletchery, swordmaking, knife making, and spearmaking.

I'll be honest, without mastercrafting none of these subclasses seem worth taking. Is the divide between advanced and master in terms of recipes enough to justify a new subclass? If not, I would just remove them.

If the divide is worth keeping, give them the same skills as their relevant subclass with all crafting at master except for toolmaking which should cap at advanced. Give them advanced haggle as well  (or for master tailor bump up haggle to master and move  toolmaking to advanced).

[Brokkr]

For hunt and stealth, all the subclasses have an ability that allows them to function in the environment that makes the most sense already.

[sleepyhead]

I was under the impression that the "Master Xmaker" subs could still CC. For now, anyway. People with those are, afaik, the only people that can CC besides those with the Custom Crafter sub (and legacy merchants, of course)

[Brokkr]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting

[John]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting

Thanks! The docs are a bit all over the place right now (understandable given the extensive change). So I wasn't sure what was still current. Good to see the confirmation. In that case the master crafting subclasses are at the exact power level I'd expect for them so I'd keep them all as they are.

Majordomo
Skills: mastery in listening and piloting, and advanced levels in guarding, cooking, sleight of hand, and watch.

As mentioned cooking at advanced is redundant. I don't think there's enough synergy or value add for watch to also be on a subclass. The only ones that benefit are the heavy mercentile and heavy combat desert classes, fence, enforcer and fighter. The rest all have it. Listen is a great skil to have and definitely worthwhile. Sleight of hand is of minimal value as well.

I'd be inclined to give them mastery in listen and pilot. Advanced in guarding, sneak and hide.

Slipknife
Skills: Master in sneak and hide. Advanced in backstab and poisoning. Journeyman at throw and sap.

Master in sneak and hide is great. Advanced in backstab and poisoning is also great. Journeyman at throw and sap seems very meh. I'd give them journeyman on listen, remove throw and sap and call it a day.

Cutpurse
Skills: Advanced in peek, steal, scan and sneak. Journeyman in sleight of hand and sap.

Advanced skills are great. Although slipknife gets sneak and hide up to master and advanced in backstab and poisoning. They're at the same karma level so I'd bump up sneak and hide to master, keep steal and peek at advanced, give them advanced sleight of hand and remove scan and sap completely to bring it more in line with Slipknife.

[John]

Rogue
Skills: Advanced in watch, sneak, scan, hide and climb. Journeyman in pick.

Again watch is not worth it on this subclass. I'd have sneak, climb, hide and pick at advanced. Give them scan at journeyman. THis makes it on par with Slipknife.

Minstrel
Skills: Master in instrument making. Advanced in listen and sleight of hand. Journeyman in scan, steal, haggle and watch.

Master in instrument making is a "nice something on the side". I don't think it's as important these days, but if you want to keep it on the minstrel go for it. I'd put haggle at advanced and keep scan at journeyman but remove steal and watch. Steal at journeyman is just not worth having. I'm removing watch to compensate bumping up haggle to advanced (also not much value in having watch with the typical classes).

Subclasses that require no changes
Master Trader and Grebber seem fine to me as Karma 1 subclasses.
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KARMA 2 SUBCLASSES

This is going to be more difficult to judge. Outdoorsman is my benchmark. It has to be my most popular Karma 2 subclass.

Outdoorsman
Skills: Master in skinning. Advanced level in archery, sneak, hide, and direction sense, scan. Journeyman level in hunt.

Put this here just to help me establish the baseline.

Aggressor/Bruiser/Lancer/Beserker
Skills: Advanced level in slashing/bludgeoning/piercing/chopping weapons, subdue, disarm. Journeyman levels in kick, bash and blind fighting.

Outdoorsman has 5 skills at advanced and they're pretty damn good skills. Not so with these subclasses. I'd have Master in subdue. Advanced in weapon skill, (dual wield or two-handed), kick and disarm. Journeyman in armor repair.

Protector
Skills: Master in parry, guarding, and shield use. Advanced in flee. Journeyman in rescue and bandage.

No real changes here. This is a damn good subclass and is definitely on par with Outdoorsman.

And that concludes my analysis of the subclasses. Either tonight or tomorrow I'll have a closer look at the abilities and see what ones might work well with what subclasses.

[frankjacoby]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting

Slipknife
Skills: Master in sneak and hide. Advanced in backstab and poisoning. Journeyman at throw and sap.

Master in sneak and hide is great. Advanced in backstab and poisoning is also great. Journeyman at throw and sap seems very meh. I'd give them journeyman on listen, remove throw and sap and call it a day.

Seems like you're attempting to unnecessarily nerf slipknife, taking away the throw and sap basically makes it a thief plus, essentially useless, who cares about listen?

[John]

Seems like you're attempting to unnecessarily nerf slipknife, taking away the throw and sap basically makes it a thief plus, essentially useless, who cares about listen?

Are either throw or sap actually worth having if they cap out at journeyman?

I also think listen has to be one of the more popular non-combat skills in the game. Some people take an entire subclass just to have listen. Listen not only lets you overhear plots (which helps make you more versatile when combined with sneak and hide) but it gives you the ability to detect people sneaking around.

[John]

Abilities: I'm assuming anyone who has hunt, listen, sneak and hide will have it specialised for the relevant environment they'd work in if they don't already.

Can forage scraps of food in cities: Currently this is on the criminal classes. Even a fence gets it! So it makes sense to give them to the criminal subclasses. That would be con artist, thief and thug. None of the city classes get any abilities so this can help flesh them out with what would otherwise be pretty threadbare subclasses (especially if staff don't agree with changing what skills these subclasses get).

Of the extended subclasses I'd give it to cutpurse, especially rogue and possibly slipknife (although slipknife does already get some good skills).

Can forage food in the wilderness: I'd give this to archer, forester and hunter. They're all thematically appropriate. For extended subclasses I probably wouldn't give it to any of them except for grebber. I wouldn't give it to outdoorsman because I'm assuming subclasses would only get 1 ability.

May prepare a campsite in the wilderness: Pretty sure this is wilderness quit. So I'd give it to Bounty Hunter, Caravan Guide and Outdoorsman. These are all subclasses that live in the desert. Both forage food and wilderness quit are good abilities. I've given these wilderness quit to give them a differentiator and help make these subclasses excel in what they do. You could argue that Caravan Guide should have forage food.

Good or Fair recovery from exertion: I'd give this to Grebber. It's not a GREAT subguild, but there's still a place for it and I do see value in it (especially for city based high mercantile classes). Giving them Good recovery would just help give it that small push. Alternatively if you think good recover is simply too good, downgrade it to fair.

Can hitch two mounts at once: I think Outlaw could definitely benefit from this ability. It'll help them steal other people's mounts or carry their ill gotten goods.

Tame mount: I believe half-elves have this ability. Giving it to a subclass is removes so much incentive to play a half-elf. The only exception is for nomad. It's a flavour subclass so people would play only typically play it if they want to be a nomad. So I'd give this to nomads if anyone was to get it. Otherwise potentially give nomads 2-mounts instead.

[Insigne]

In their current state, some of the subclasses seem rather unbalanced. Maybe that was a result of the karma scale shrinkage. One of the obvious examples is Slipknife. When comparing it to other stealth-based subclasses on the same level, Slipknife is capable of mastering hide and sneak while Rogue and Cutpurse's skills cap out at advanced.

Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make all extended mundane subclasses available at 1 karma.

I have a couple reasons for this, besides making mundane subclasses more attainable:

• Locking magickers and half-giants behind a little over two months worth of karma makes sense to me. I just can't see Outdoorsman the same way. I'd like to see a shift towards reserving higher karma for more complex and challenging roles.
  
• The first point of karma is the easiest to gain and, with the measure of trust granted by staff and a wait time of one month per spend, I think it's a much more reasonable place to set a (more powerful) mundane role at.
  

2. Rework some of the extended subclasses to balance them out.

There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread and I particularly love John's points on abilities and 0-karma subclasses so I won't bother rehashing those. I'll focus on the extended subclasses that I think could use a little more love and why. This is my opinion on how they could be adjusted based on my limited experience:

• Rogue falls behind Slipknife with skills capped at advanced at the highest. I'd give it master climb and advanced pick. Lower watch if not removing it altogether.
• Cutpurse is here for the same reason as Rogue. I'd go for master sneak and peek, if not steal.
• Majordomo seems like it doesn't know what it is. It's a mish-mash of skills that don't have much synergy. If I wanted master listen and pilot, I'd pick Master Trader over it. I'm not sure what makes this subclass worth picking over others.
• Grebber shouldn't have higher hunt than Outdoorsman. Journeyman climb seems like a death trap. I think I'd rather see this subclass with higher climb and the addition of search.
• Apothecary is almost there, but it would make perfect sense for it to have master bandage.

3. Consider skills that aren't offered in any of the current options.

I took a look at mansa's spreadsheet and found several skills that aren't currently offered in any of the subclasses, extended or not:

• Master scan (which has been mentioned earlier in the thread)
• Charge
• City hunt
• Search
• Crossbow use
• Sling use
• Blowgun use
• Threaten
• Hack
• Riposte

This is more of an observation than anything I really want to see implemented into subclasses, but it would be nice to see some of the new skills as an option.

[sleepyhead]

Hmm. Now that everyone gets weapon skills, I'm not sure that Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker are going to get picked much anymore. While some people may have taken them in order to use a different kind of weapon than their guild usually gets, I think their main purpose was to provide merchants (and full guild magickers, when they existed) with some nominal fighting skill. Sure, they may have a bit higher of a cap on their weapon skills than heavy mercantile gets, but I think it won't be a popular choice anymore, especially when you have to spend 2 karma on it, and the custom crafter subclass will be an automatic choice for a lot of heavy mercantile players. Kick, bash, disarm, and blind fighting are still cool, but I think the draw of these subs has always been the weapon skills, and I certainly don't think those skills alone plus a potential slight bump to the weapon skills cap that most people won't ever hit anyway is worth 2 karma anymore. Maybe the weapon skill caps could be made higher?

The non-extended subclass Gladiator is in an even worse spot, weapon skill-wise. Their single weapon skill only goes up to apprentice. Again, kick, bash, disarm, and pain tolerance are great, but they might need something to replace the apprentice slashing that I don't think anyone is quite as excited about anymore. I think this subclass should also possibly be renamed since there is actually now a main class for gladiators.

Thoughts?

[John]

Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.

It's pretty clear this is exactly how karma is now structured. It use to be a level of "trust" had to be attained to play difficult to play well concepts. The extended subguilds pretty much removed that and we've instead steadily moved towards a "karma = more powerful characters". Brokkr specifically said this isn't the venue to discuss that though so I've deliberately not voiced my opinions on the subject (other than to say I have pretty strong ones which are counter to the current setup but am not looking to explore them in this thread).

[number13]

All of the subclasses should be junked, (except for Custom Crafter and the elementalists, sorcs, potential psion subguilds).

Just allow players to select three skills to add to their character (or bump skill cap and starting skill level if existing), two with the cap of Advanced, one with the cap of Master.

If you spend a karma point on the character, you get an additional two skills added, one capping at Master, the other capping at Advanced.

Stuff like languages, accents, special equipment count as a pick.

[Insigne]

Thoughts?

Those are good observations. I can get behind Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker getting a slight bump in weapon skills to make up for the changes and make it worth the karma spend. Would raising Gladiator's slashing to journeyman put the subclass on par with the new classes? I don't know. I'd almost rather go for flee.

Edit:

Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.

It's pretty clear this is exactly how karma is now structured.

Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. That was inaccurate and a poor choice of wording on my part.

[mansa]

I have a few questions:

Should subclasses have any skills at 'Master' ?

How "powerful" are crafting skills?   
   * Is there any crafting skills that are more powerful than others?

Is there a skill that is a requirement to your enjoyment of the game?

[flurry]

For what it's worth, unless I'm mistaken, these are the crafts that can only be master custom crafted by the Custom Crafter subclass:

pick making, feather working, instrument making, toolmaking, bandage making, club making, axe making, bow making, tent making, floristry, woodworking

Maybe some of these would be appropriate for new or existing Master ________ subclasses?

[Delirium]

Some of these can be fit into existing subguilds:

Some already exist:
Minstrels get custom (master) instrument making
Apothecaries get custom (master) bandage making

Suggestions for fitting in the rest:
Outdoorsman for custom tent making
Forester for custom axe making
Archer for custom bow making
Master Jeweler for custom feather working

Break up Master Weaponsmith into separate custom craft subclasses:
Master Bladecrafter: Swords, knife making, haggle, value, toolmaking
Master Weaponcrafter: Spears, clubs, haggle, value, toolmaking


A new subguild could be created for pick_making: Locksmith.  Haggle, value, toolmaking, palm, and peek seem like good accompanying skills.
A new subguild could be created for floristry: Florist (suggested by Flurry earlier in the thread): floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage

[Insigne]

Apothecary also seems to get floristry to master.

[lostinspace]

Has there been any consideration for the search skill on a subclass? One thing I've liked about the new classes is how many classes get it, compared to what I believe used to just be a burglar skill.

[John]

Hmm. Now that everyone gets weapon skills, I'm not sure that Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker are going to get picked much anymore. While some people may have taken them in order to use a different kind of weapon than their guild usually gets, I think their main purpose was to provide merchants (and full guild magickers, when they existed) with some nominal fighting skill. Sure, they may have a bit higher of a cap on their weapon skills than heavy mercantile gets, but I think it won't be a popular choice anymore, especially when you have to spend 2 karma on it, and the custom crafter subclass will be an automatic choice for a lot of heavy mercantile players. Kick, bash, disarm, and blind fighting are still cool, but I think the draw of these subs has always been the weapon skills, and I certainly don't think those skills alone plus a potential slight bump to the weapon skills cap that most people won't ever hit anyway is worth 2 karma anymore. Maybe the weapon skill caps could be made higher?

My understanding is your skill in a weapon skill helps determine your defences against that weapon. The fighting style skill (two-handed and dual wield) impact your ability to use those weapons at all. I think including the weapon style (say dual wield when it's piercing and slashing and two-handed when it's bludgeoning and chopping) included at advanced along with the weapon skill would be enough of a boost to make these subclasses worthwhile (especially when coupled with a different weapon skill then the one your class gives you).

Should subclasses have any skills at 'Master' ?

Yes. Without it the extended crafting subclasses just aren't worthwhile.

[Delirium]

Skill in a weapon absolutely affects more than just your ability to defend against it.