CRIMINALS CODES

[nauta]

Two things, a fun fact and a suggestion on how to improve the user-interface part:

1. Fun Fact: In 1992, Jhalavar posted about the crimcode on early ArmageddonMUD: "An elite guard that hunts you down, charms you, leads you to a slave trader's wagon, throws you onboard, locks you up, drives to a nearby city, sells you to a noble, casts dispel magic on you, and leaves."

2. User-interface.  We have quit test (and maybe brawl test?).  Why not have subdue/kill/etc. test which would tell you if the action you are about to perform would cause a crimcode check?

[Delirium]

NPC soldiers carrying clubs and having mercy on by default seems like the easiest immediate solution.

[Riev]

Even as a Soldier's Militia in an aggressive city state, why would the City Guard NOT have bludgeoning weapons and mercy on, by default? Why is there a city soldier going around with a massive axe or cleaver trying to just murder every pickpocket they see?

They're protecting the city, and every dead thief is a lost chance at finding information about who might be employing them.

[Delirium]

Why is there a city soldier going around with a massive axe or cleaver trying to just murder every pickpocket they see?

Because the game started out as a h&s and murder corruption betrayal harsh harsh desert world.

(In case it's not already obvious, I agree with you.)

[Molten Heart]

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[Riev]

There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?

Probably around the time we eliminated an entire sphere of play, yeah.

[Armaddict]

There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?

Crimcode intricacies were never immune to player criticism.  No.

Well.  Maybe.  But not about crimcode.  We've been wanting cooler crimcode (which includes less of it) for a long time.

[BadSkeelz]

There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?

I'm just sick of the NPCs killstealing from PCs. Jobstealing, really.

[Fathi]

At about the 12 days of playtime mark I got crimflagged accidentally (...) I killed TWO OF THOSE DUDES before a staff member pardoned me and my PC wasn't even close to dead. 

I can understand the sentiment - maybe they should be smarter.  But 12 days is a lot! That's almost 300 hours of playing the game.  I say you should be able to give the soldiers some grief, have a fighting chance if you decide to be the villain, etc.

I remember back in the late 90s if you made it to 10 days with a warrior then you'd "made" it.  Might have had something to do with people not being able to view their skill levels.

Fair point, although it's worth noting that your 10 days of playtime and my 12 days of playtime could be wildly different skill levels. I was more using the days played to point out that my PC was a pretty average warrior type and by no means a lethal epic doom fighter. I think someone who's put a dedicated 10 days of playtime into learning to fight should be able to fight their way out of dying to soldiers, yeah. But I dunno how many I would have steamrolled if staff hadn't pardoned me and that didn't feel realistic either.

[The Lonely Hunter]

There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?

The players are changing and bringing their real world ideas into Allanaki culture, it has been that way for awhile now. The harsh world matters less if their feelings get hurt or it isn't how they think it should be.

Soldiers killing even thieves for the most petty crime should be perfectly acceptable. The best way to deter crime in a place like Allanak is to just kill all of the criminals. Don't want to take that chance, don't be a criminal. I see nothing wrong with brutally cutting a thief in half by a massive bone axe for stealing something worth 1 sid.

[Feco]

There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?

The players are changing and bringing their real world ideas into Allanaki culture, it has been that way for awhile now. The harsh world matters less if their feelings get hurt or it isn't how they think it should be.

Soldiers killing even thieves for the most petty crime should be perfectly acceptable. The best way to deter crime in a place like Allanak is to just kill all of the criminals. Don't want to take that chance, don't be a criminal. I see nothing wrong with brutally cutting a thief in half by a massive bone axe for stealing something worth 1 sid.

Maybe what's responsible is the lack of contrast -- AKA, Tuluk being closed.  When you put it this way, I really want crim-code in Allanak to just be the nasty kill-fest that it is.

I still think there should be fewer half-giants, though.

[sleepyhead]

I don't think it's just people wanting to bring their real-world sensibilities of things needing to be fair or nice or easy. For me it's the opposite. Crimcode makes people too nice and KEEPS them from being brutal. I want to be able to beat a breed up on the street, and the soldiers don't care because it's just some breed, for example.

ETA: Too often the overbearing nature of the crimcode inspires uppity undesirables to have this "haha you can't do shit to me" attitude. Sure, someone can whine to a templar, and maybe it'll come back to bite the undesirable. Maybe...but just as likely not. Brawlcode can only go so far, and a lot of times these people don't even care if you punch them because there's no actual threat. Nobody ever uses the awesome BREAK code on bottles because everyone knows it'd be an empty threat. The guards would be willing to drag off or even maybe kill a freaking Borsail noble if he cut some breed's face. That doesn't foster harshness to me, at all.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Nobles are immune to Crim code, but I get your point.  I think it already got mentioned by Riev, but a bribe system would be an interesting way to counter this, pay the near by guard...Kill breed!

[sleepyhead]

They are not immune to crimcode, or weren't just a few years ago. I am glad you thought that and am almost sad to inform you otherwise. They are immune to crimcode being triggered by reading books, at least.

[Insigne]

Insta-gibbing NPCs don't make the world harsher to me. Just more hack n' slashy. 

I can get behind the idea of a less 'hands-on' criminal system: Soldiers having clubs and mercy on. A tiered penalty system based on different crimes. NPCs and the virtual population reacting to a known criminal. +1 +1 +1

I want to be able to beat a breed up on the street, and the soldiers don't care because it's just some breed, for example.

According to the criminal helpfile, penalties are more severe for non-citizens. I wish that was also the case based on race. Bring racism to NPC soldiers!

[The Lonely Hunter]

Maybe what's responsible is the lack of contrast -- AKA, Tuluk being closed.  When you put it this way, I really want crim-code in Allanak to just be the nasty kill-fest that it is.

I still think there should be fewer half-giants, though.

Allanak was like that before Tuluk got flowery (rebuilt). I do not believe it is a lack of contrast.

[MeTekillot]

How many soldiers can yo kill before they start shrieking in fear and hauling ass? Crimcode should factor that.

By like, smiting you with an angry Red Robe.

[MeTekillot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uGEfdCj9bU

[Eyeball]

Soldiers having clubs and mercy on. A tiered penalty system based on different crimes.

Or you could just not resist arrest to start with. If you flee from arrest, I'd say that's grounds for being cut down.

[mansa]

I fear we are debating things from the point of view of an experienced player.

We're not thinking of it as a player with less than 10 characters under their belt.

How do I know that starting an unarmed fight is worthy of the criminal code?
Subduing or wrestling someone in the street?
Stealing items off sleeping people?
Throwing a piece of fruit at someone?

Should there be a coded reaction or test for *activity* before I do it to verify I won't get yanked?

[Veselka]

I think making it seem like Crimecode is a feature, rather than a non-robust binary code addition, is flimsy at best.

Could Crime Code be improved? Sure. It's a carousel ride that's been offered many times on the GDB, and I'm sure Staff has made tweaks over the years and discussed it amongst themselves.

I personally think not having stacks of HG soldiers would be a good start. But having patrols, would be even better. I, too, wouldn't want it to be too unharsh. It is Zalanthas after all. Some soldiers could use clubs and have mercy on -- Others could, and should, have blades and decide to use a more permanent method to ending a criminal.

It'd be cool to also have a bribe system in place -- So if you have coin on you, you can take a chance and attempt to bribe an NPC to release you or lower your crime time. But otherwise, that's something you'd have to take up with a PC.

All in all I'm fine with the crime code system if it were more reliant on patrolling NPCs, less reliant on vNPC 'gotcha' sort of snap shots, and waxed/waned depending on what crime was committed, and where. I liked Fathi's assessment.

[Insigne]

Soldiers having clubs and mercy on. A tiered penalty system based on different crimes.

Or you could just not resist arrest to start with. If you flee from arrest, I'd say that's grounds for being cut down.

A fairly recent PC of mine subdued a rat and was nearly squashed by a half-giant soldier as a result. I had 'nosave arrest' on but wasn't given a chance to submit.

Some soldiers could use clubs and have mercy on -- Others could, and should, have blades and decide to use a more permanent method to ending a criminal.

Why make it one or the other? I could see soldiers having both and using them accordingly.

[Eyeball]

A fairly recent PC of mine subdued a rat and was nearly squashed by a half-giant soldier as a result. I had 'nosave arrest' on but wasn't given a chance to submit.

I hope you submitted a bug report then. Glitches aren't really justification enough to be asking to make fleeing arrest less lethal (in my opinion).

[chrisdcoulombe]

It would be cool if you could Duel in the city.  Have a nosave so you can fight in the city by choice and the guards will leave you alone.  Though I can think of ways that could possibly be abused.

[Insigne]

I hope you submitted a bug report then. Glitches aren't really justification enough to be asking to make fleeing arrest less lethal (in my opinion).

Oh, I agree. If my earlier posts made it seem like I was for crimcode being less lethal for PCs actively trying to resist arrest, that wasn't my intention. My opinion is that NPC soldiers shouldn't be so kill-happy against PCs who aren't resisting arrest.

I don't think I could see a PC soldier reacting to certain crimes the way NPCs do. And not just because of the "Die, fool!" spam.