Hey,
Recently, I heard a story of a player who did activity that they didn't think would get them wanted, and got wanted and eventually killed by soldiers, and I was thinking about the whole series of event that happened. My hope is to give suggestions to the game to make it more easily understood to the players the criminal code
To start:
A) Pausing an activity, forcing input from the player to confirm that they want to do criminal activity.
- This suggested was turned down because players in Discord said they didn't want to keep typing 'steal - yes - pick lock - yes'. Rather than confirmation of activity, have a nosave criminal flag that would prevent ALL activity that would cause you to get wanted. Autodefault on.
This would force players to turn it off. Forcing players to turn it off is accepting all risks of all future commands.
b) Making the echo that you get criminal flagged 'bigger' and more noticable.
- BOLD, all caps, 'YOU ARE WANTED!'
Some people suggested the BEEP command, but I appreciate that the BEEP command is used only for character deaths.
c) Have soldiers act differently, rather than running into a room to kill you.
This one is tricky:
soldiers should have mercy on
soldiers should have clubs
soldiers should act differently once you're ko'd
- surrender command:
drop your weapons, opponent sheathes theirs, combat stops, you become subdued
force some nosave flags to be turned on. forces you into a LONG LAG for coded commands too, so you can't just surrender and then flee.
What ifs?
soldiers could be bribed? (that could also be in jail)
a ranking of crimes, different jails for different crimes
d) letting the player know that they are criminal flagged after the fact 'better'
- [if wanted status is known to player]
Wanted status in Prompt, NPC Merchants saying, 'I don't sell to criminals', random echos of vnpcs shying away from you.
Rahnevyn - "Have NPC soldiers way you to get you to submit." - I dislike this idea but i'm putting it in anyways.
Is there any other ideas or suggestions that we could put forth about the criminal code?
Quote from: mansa on March 20, 2018, 07:18:43 PM
c) Have soldiers act differently, rather than running into a room to kill you.
This one is tricky:
soldiers should have mercy on
soldiers should have clubs
soldiers should act differently once you're ko'd
I have seen this behavior in game multiple times, and I quite like it. It might be the case that not all NPCs follow this behavior, but it felt very fitting when they did.
+1 for the surrender command.
c) Have soldiers act differently, rather than running into a room to kill you.
This one is tricky:
soldiers should have mercy on
soldiers should have clubs
soldiers should act differently once you're ko'd
I think soldiers should act different for petty crimes. The crime which I was killed for was because I was subduing a criminal and NPC soldiers didn't know if I was helping the criminal or taking him to the soldiers. I think they should act differently just as do the NPC's do at the gates when you smuggle shit in. Ive had to pay coins when I got caught before.
I suggest removing it completely.
I've suggested removing it completely before as well, but the fact is you need
some automated law enforcement in order to keep the game from becoming a complete hack and slash.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49826.msg901059.html#msg901059
I do think it should be made much less prevalent (where getting mugged in daylight on a street is an actual risk) and less invariably lethal when it is executed by NPC soldiers. Suggestion C has my full backing.
There was a discussion in the discord about the prevalence of VNPC soldiers and how they could be dealt with. One suggestion I really liked was the introduction of a command that would let you know what kind of reaction you might expect in a given room.
Quote
"Vermilion Zelda"/Blue Alice - Today at 5:59 PM
With the idea of making it clearer how many npcs are around, maybe to reduce spam there could be code to group npc lines like there is for multiple loaves of bread etc "You notice there's more than a couple of soldiers wandering past in the crowd." etc
I would really like to see something like this added, combined with a reduction of soldiers. Let criminals know when they might hazard a crime during the day, and given soldier PCs something to play against. I would also like to see the Byn and others hired for bodyguard work and less reliant on an omnipresent, infalliable, ultralethal hit squad. This would extend to the bodyguards themselves not having to get incriminated for doing their jobs. Maybe it can be a perk purhcased from the templarate and bestowed by a medallion or other item?
Also remove all half giant NPC guards except from strategic locations.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 20, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
remove all half giant NPC guards except from strategic locations.
yes, yes, yes and yes again.
also no more templars toting around half-giant NPC soldiers. You're a goddamn warrior mage, stop adding HGs on top of it that never mess up or become a liability or babble information they're not supposed to, etc etc etc.
Quote from: Delirium on March 20, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 20, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
remove all half giant NPC guards except from strategic locations.
yes, yes, yes and yes again.
also no more templars toting around half-giant NPC soldiers. You're a goddamn warrior mage, stop adding HGs on top of it that never mess up or become a liability or babble information they're not supposed to, etc etc etc.
This, a thousand times this.
I do think that people have a point about less Half-Giant guards. Gates and Temple I can understand but wandering around on their own whacking minor peek pockets is overkill.
Honestly, other than the issue of crimcode on them, I dont get why people dont use PC's as guards.
You are a noble and have two or whatever slots for an aide, fabulous! One for an aide, one for a guard.
Templar? You have soldiers who can be told to stand near you, they dont even need to worry about crimcode affecting them.
As it DOES relate to crim code, nobles can't have PC Guards because Noble Guards are technically immune to criminal code. It would make a non-AoD PC capable of incriminating, or at least killing without consequence.
Less Half-giants the better. Up the stats a little on human guards, or at least their ranges, if you feel the need.
Also, less soldiers summoning TEMP soldiers from the aether. If a rat gets attacked and soldiers intervene, they call in the whole fucking cavalry.
If there are noble NPC guards that are immune to crim code it is because they have been clanned incorrectly. Please bring which ones you think this is the case for to our attention.
Yeah noble NPC guards are not crimcode immune. At all.
Mansa are you suggesting something similar to below?
I think the issue is always "nosave off", cause I often intend to do that, and I bet others too.
How about if nosave arrest is split from nosave off, meaning that nosave off will say "You are now attempting all saving throws, except arrest."
And for arrest, you'd have to specifically type nosave arrest.
Quote from: Brokkr on March 21, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
If there are noble NPC guards that are immune to crim code it is because they have been clanned incorrectly. Please bring which ones you think this is the case for to our attention.
Then this has been a change without informing the playerbase, because staff have mentioned before that this is why PC Noble Guards are not possible, due to too much confusion with crim-code.
I played a noble years ago and they told me my guard couldn't be crimcode immune because I wasn't a templar. I could not order it to do anything illegal anyway (kill/subdue/any combat starter)
Believe me, I wish nobles and their guards could have crimcode immunity. Not to act like templars, but just so rando commoners don't act like nobles are not really scary because they can't codedly do anything to you by themselves.
Quote from: najdorf on March 21, 2018, 01:04:15 PM
Mansa are you suggesting something similar to below?
I think the issue is always "nosave off", cause I often intend to do that, and I bet others too.
How about if nosave arrest is split from nosave off, meaning that nosave off will say "You are now attempting all saving throws, except arrest."
And for arrest, you'd have to specifically type nosave arrest.
No.
The idea was to tell the player that <action> would give you a criminal flag, -before- you attempt to do the action.
The problem was that someone did something they didn't believe would get them wanted. How do you modify the system that could do that?
Aka, when your Dungeon Master says, "are you
sure you want to do
that?"
I wouldn't like a system where you need to confirm a criminal action because sometimes time is of the essence. At best it would be an irritating step.
I think the ORIGINAL issue could simply be solved by subdue checking whether or not the target is wanted and, if so, returning a Confirmation if Tribes doesn't return Servants of the Dragon.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 21, 2018, 02:57:21 PM
I wouldn't like a system where you need to confirm a criminal action because sometimes time is of the essence. At best it would be an irritating step.
That was the resolution of the conversation. Rather than confirmation of action it would rather be a flag that prevents all actions. You can opt out. Nosave Criminal
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 20, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
I do think it should be made much less prevalent (where getting mugged in daylight on a street is an actual risk)
A nightmare for new characters (who are obviously easy marks). And likely to discourage people in general from going out into the city and moving about.
There are places people can be mugged. If common sense is used, its best to use the guise of darkness, but there are places. I agree with the punishment being uber murder ganks squad being out of hand for stuff, but alot of that is already fixed in Allanak crim code. Of course there is still the other places.
I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand I don't like the current crime code setup very much and I do think we'd benefit from fewer half-giant guards running around.
On the other hand the human soldiers are reeaaally not that tough and I worry that a lack of half-giants would lead to some silliness. It wouldn't take much for any old dwarf warrior to run around slaughtering soldiers left and right with the right stat roll and a few days of training.
Some years ago I played a character who was warrior guild but hadn't been around that long. Stats were OK, nothing special. At about the 12 days of playtime mark I got crimflagged accidentally due to a guarding/subduing snafu. I was told to flee out of the room so the templar involved could try to fix things. I fled and a bunch of soldiers chased me. This was in the days before you could nosave_combat and not attack back.
I killed TWO OF THOSE DUDES before a staff member pardoned me and my PC wasn't even close to dead. ???
I'm not sure it makes sense to have the human soldiers be that weak, so maybe that's why all the half-giants were added. I'd like to think there's a middle ground somewhere between "most warriors can cut through human soldiers like butter" and "instant death by giant squad" though.
I'd really appreciate it if there was a tiered system for criminal flagging for different offenses. Something like:
tier 1
pickpocketing/theft
picking locks
spice
tier 2
assault
murder
illegal literacy (wouldn't be kill on sight because they'd want to find out how you knew!)
tier 3
magick use
defiling/gathering
Where if you were a tier 1 criminal the soldiers would chase you out of the immediate vicinity but not very far. Tier 2 they'd chase you until they could arrest you with primary intent to subdue. Tier 3 they would try to kill you unless you had nosave on.
This is a really badly thought out spur of the moment sketch of how it'd work, but that'd be my preferred general idea. Less adjustment of what type of NPCs and more adjustment of how severe they'd treat your crime based on what you actually did.
Quote from: Fathi on March 21, 2018, 08:44:38 PM
At about the 12 days of playtime mark I got crimflagged accidentally (...) I killed TWO OF THOSE DUDES before a staff member pardoned me and my PC wasn't even close to dead. ???
I can understand the sentiment - maybe they should be smarter. But 12 days is a lot! That's almost 300 hours of playing the game. I say you should be able to give the soldiers some grief, have a fighting chance if you decide to be the villain, etc.
I remember back in the late 90s if you made it to 10 days with a warrior then you'd "made" it. Might have had something to do with people not being able to view their skill levels.
Quote from: Delirium on March 20, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 20, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
remove all half giant NPC guards except from strategic locations.
yes, yes, yes and yes again.
also no more templars toting around half-giant NPC soldiers. You're a goddamn warrior mage, stop adding HGs on top of it that never mess up or become a liability or babble information they're not supposed to, etc etc etc.
Two things, a fun fact and a suggestion on how to improve the user-interface part:
1. Fun Fact: In 1992, Jhalavar posted about the crimcode on early ArmageddonMUD: "An elite guard that hunts you down, charms you, leads you to a slave trader's wagon, throws you onboard, locks you up, drives to a nearby city, sells you to a noble, casts dispel magic on you, and leaves."
2. User-interface. We have quit test (and maybe brawl test?). Why not have subdue/kill/etc. test which would tell you if the action you are about to perform would cause a crimcode check?
NPC soldiers carrying clubs and having mercy on by default seems like the easiest immediate solution.
Even as a Soldier's Militia in an aggressive city state, why would the City Guard NOT have bludgeoning weapons and mercy on, by default? Why is there a city soldier going around with a massive axe or cleaver trying to just murder every pickpocket they see?
They're protecting the city, and every dead thief is a lost chance at finding information about who might be employing them.
Quote from: Riev on March 22, 2018, 11:58:14 AM
Why is there a city soldier going around with a massive axe or cleaver trying to just murder every pickpocket they see?
Because the game started out as a h&s and murder corruption betrayal harsh harsh desert world.
(In case it's not already obvious, I agree with you.)
.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 22, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?
Probably around the time we eliminated an entire sphere of play, yeah.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 22, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?
Crimcode intricacies were never immune to player criticism. No.
Well. Maybe. But not about crimcode. We've been wanting cooler crimcode (which includes less of it) for a long time.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 22, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?
I'm just sick of the NPCs killstealing from PCs. Jobstealing, really.
Quote from: CodeMaster on March 22, 2018, 12:32:10 AM
Quote from: Fathi on March 21, 2018, 08:44:38 PM
At about the 12 days of playtime mark I got crimflagged accidentally (...) I killed TWO OF THOSE DUDES before a staff member pardoned me and my PC wasn't even close to dead. ???
I can understand the sentiment - maybe they should be smarter. But 12 days is a lot! That's almost 300 hours of playing the game. I say you should be able to give the soldiers some grief, have a fighting chance if you decide to be the villain, etc.
I remember back in the late 90s if you made it to 10 days with a warrior then you'd "made" it. Might have had something to do with people not being able to view their skill levels.
Fair point, although it's worth noting that your 10 days of playtime and my 12 days of playtime could be wildly different skill levels. I was more using the days played to point out that my PC was a pretty average warrior type and by no means a lethal epic doom fighter. I think someone who's put a dedicated 10 days of playtime into learning to fight should be able to fight their way out of dying to soldiers, yeah. But I dunno how many I would have steamrolled if staff hadn't pardoned me and that didn't feel realistic either.
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 22, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?
The players are changing and bringing their real world ideas into Allanaki culture, it has been that way for awhile now. The harsh world matters less if their feelings get hurt or it isn't how they think it should be.
Soldiers killing even thieves for the most petty crime should be perfectly acceptable. The best way to deter crime in a place like Allanak is to just kill all of the criminals. Don't want to take that chance, don't be a criminal. I see nothing wrong with brutally cutting a thief in half by a massive bone axe for stealing something worth 1 sid.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on March 23, 2018, 08:31:57 AM
Quote from: Molten Heart on March 22, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
There was a time when Allanak prized itself as a cutthroat and harsh place, a contrast to Tuluk where all the soldiers used clubs and had mercy on. In Allanak they used to be proud of the raw violence. Is the culture in Allanak changing?
The players are changing and bringing their real world ideas into Allanaki culture, it has been that way for awhile now. The harsh world matters less if their feelings get hurt or it isn't how they think it should be.
Soldiers killing even thieves for the most petty crime should be perfectly acceptable. The best way to deter crime in a place like Allanak is to just kill all of the criminals. Don't want to take that chance, don't be a criminal. I see nothing wrong with brutally cutting a thief in half by a massive bone axe for stealing something worth 1 sid.
Maybe what's responsible is the lack of contrast -- AKA, Tuluk being closed. When you put it this way, I really want crim-code in Allanak to just be the nasty kill-fest that it is.
I still think there should be fewer half-giants, though.
I don't think it's just people wanting to bring their real-world sensibilities of things needing to be fair or nice or easy. For me it's the opposite. Crimcode makes people too nice and KEEPS them from being brutal. I want to be able to beat a breed up on the street, and the soldiers don't care because it's just some breed, for example.
ETA: Too often the overbearing nature of the crimcode inspires uppity undesirables to have this "haha you can't do shit to me" attitude. Sure, someone can whine to a templar, and maybe it'll come back to bite the undesirable. Maybe...but just as likely not. Brawlcode can only go so far, and a lot of times these people don't even care if you punch them because there's no actual threat. Nobody ever uses the awesome BREAK code on bottles because everyone knows it'd be an empty threat. The guards would be willing to drag off or even maybe kill a freaking Borsail noble if he cut some breed's face. That doesn't foster harshness to me, at all.
Nobles are immune to Crim code, but I get your point. I think it already got mentioned by Riev, but a bribe system would be an interesting way to counter this, pay the near by guard...Kill breed!
They are not immune to crimcode, or weren't just a few years ago. I am glad you thought that and am almost sad to inform you otherwise. They are immune to crimcode being triggered by reading books, at least.
Insta-gibbing NPCs don't make the world harsher to me. Just more hack n' slashy.
I can get behind the idea of a less 'hands-on' criminal system: Soldiers having clubs and mercy on. A tiered penalty system based on different crimes. NPCs and the virtual population reacting to a known criminal. +1 +1 +1
Quote from: sleepyhead on March 23, 2018, 12:41:30 PM
I want to be able to beat a breed up on the street, and the soldiers don't care because it's just some breed, for example.
According to the criminal helpfile (http://armageddon.org/help/view/criminal), penalties are more severe for non-citizens. I wish that was also the case based on race. Bring racism to NPC soldiers!
Quote
Maybe what's responsible is the lack of contrast -- AKA, Tuluk being closed. When you put it this way, I really want crim-code in Allanak to just be the nasty kill-fest that it is.
I still think there should be fewer half-giants, though.
Allanak was like that before Tuluk got flowery (rebuilt). I do not believe it is a lack of contrast.
How many soldiers can yo kill before they start shrieking in fear and hauling ass? Crimcode should factor that.
By like, smiting you with an angry Red Robe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uGEfdCj9bU
Quote from: Insigne on March 23, 2018, 03:07:32 PM
Soldiers having clubs and mercy on. A tiered penalty system based on different crimes.
Or you could just not resist arrest to start with. If you flee from arrest, I'd say that's grounds for being cut down.
I fear we are debating things from the point of view of an experienced player.
We're not thinking of it as a player with less than 10 characters under their belt.
How do I know that starting an unarmed fight is worthy of the criminal code?
Subduing or wrestling someone in the street?
Stealing items off sleeping people?
Throwing a piece of fruit at someone?
Should there be a coded reaction or test for *activity* before I do it to verify I won't get yanked?
I think making it seem like Crimecode is a feature, rather than a non-robust binary code addition, is flimsy at best.
Could Crime Code be improved? Sure. It's a carousel ride that's been offered many times on the GDB, and I'm sure Staff has made tweaks over the years and discussed it amongst themselves.
I personally think not having stacks of HG soldiers would be a good start. But having patrols, would be even better. I, too, wouldn't want it to be too unharsh. It is Zalanthas after all. Some soldiers could use clubs and have mercy on -- Others could, and should, have blades and decide to use a more permanent method to ending a criminal.
It'd be cool to also have a bribe system in place -- So if you have coin on you, you can take a chance and attempt to bribe an NPC to release you or lower your crime time. But otherwise, that's something you'd have to take up with a PC.
All in all I'm fine with the crime code system if it were more reliant on patrolling NPCs, less reliant on vNPC 'gotcha' sort of snap shots, and waxed/waned depending on what crime was committed, and where. I liked Fathi's assessment.
Quote from: Eyeball on March 23, 2018, 05:46:49 PM
Quote from: Insigne on March 23, 2018, 03:07:32 PM
Soldiers having clubs and mercy on. A tiered penalty system based on different crimes.
Or you could just not resist arrest to start with. If you flee from arrest, I'd say that's grounds for being cut down.
A fairly recent PC of mine subdued a rat and was nearly squashed by a half-giant soldier as a result. I had 'nosave arrest' on but wasn't given a chance to submit.
Quote from: Veselka on March 23, 2018, 08:48:14 PM
Some soldiers could use clubs and have mercy on -- Others could, and should, have blades and decide to use a more permanent method to ending a criminal.
Why make it one or the other? I could see soldiers having both and using them accordingly.
Quote from: Insigne on March 23, 2018, 09:20:03 PM
A fairly recent PC of mine subdued a rat and was nearly squashed by a half-giant soldier as a result. I had 'nosave arrest' on but wasn't given a chance to submit.
I hope you submitted a bug report then. Glitches aren't really justification enough to be asking to make fleeing arrest less lethal (in my opinion).
It would be cool if you could Duel in the city. Have a nosave so you can fight in the city by choice and the guards will leave you alone. Though I can think of ways that could possibly be abused.
Quote from: Eyeball on March 24, 2018, 08:57:07 AM
I hope you submitted a bug report then. Glitches aren't really justification enough to be asking to make fleeing arrest less lethal (in my opinion).
Oh, I agree. If my earlier posts made it seem like I was for crimcode being less lethal for PCs actively trying to
resist arrest, that wasn't my intention. My opinion is that NPC soldiers shouldn't be so kill-happy against PCs who
aren't resisting arrest.
I don't think I could see a PC soldier reacting to certain crimes the way NPCs do. And not just because of the "Die, fool!" spam.
Quote from: Delirium on March 20, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 20, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
remove all half giant NPC guards except from strategic locations.
yes, yes, yes and yes again.
also no more templars toting around half-giant NPC soldiers. You're a goddamn warrior mage, stop adding HGs on top of it that never mess up or become a liability or babble information they're not supposed to, etc etc etc.
I also agree with this. It also aims to follow that they wouldn't make for very discerning soldiers, so not very good aside from gate guards to specifically keep out Mekillots and spiders. I like the idea of human soldiers being the norm, all of which being of varying skill, stats, and guilds to provide variety. I.E. you might weigh your options when committing that crime within eyeshot of the pale limp-wristed private, but Tek help you if the Battle-scarred ghoulish female sergeant strolls in after him.