Discussion of religion and politics on the gdb

[nauta]

On our discord, we have an informal agreement not to discuss religion and politics.  I think this is good for a variety of reasons, but the main reason is that we are a gaming community and there are other outlets for such discussions.  We have also had a few reviews now mentioning the discussion of religion and politics in particular as turn offs.  (Note: not the content of any particular view, just the discussion itself.)

I think we should have an informal agreement that we not talk about religion and politics on the gdb.  What do you think?

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Do you think we should have an informal agreement to not talk about politics and religion on the gdb as well?

[Akaramu]

I think it would be fine if those topics are discussed in clearly labeled threads that people can choose not to look at. I'm all for freedom of speech and don't think any subjects should be banned. Censorship sucks, let's not support it.

[Barzalene]

Yes. Let's decide not to discuss these topics. That's not censorship. It's defining the norms of our community as a community.

Even when someone's religious and political views line up with mine exactly, discussing them never improves how I feel about then, and often makes me like them less. These discussions are devisive. There's an entire internet where people can go and talk about politics. We don't need it here.

Things have gotten so ugly, I don't even read any non-arm discussions anymore. It would be nice to be able to read everything without fear.

[Barzalene]

We should vote on it.

[Feco]

I'd be fine if we all agreed to just agreed to not talk about it.

I'm not particularly interested in an official ban, though.  It'll turn into a shitfest when people make vague allusions to the topics and get in trouble for it.

[Refugee]

I initially thought, sure why not.  But then I got to thinking about it, and I think it's better if we don't.  I think it's probably a slippery slope.

I can just see some well-meaning person getting shit on because they said Merry Christmas or something.  And then what comes next? 

Maybe a better decision would be to agree to be nice to each other and value each other, and to just scroll on past things that you can only reply to in a way that is hurtful and mean.

Alternately we could do away with all non-game talk.  I've played games where I just didn't read the OOC stuff because it was so nasty it just ruined my enjoyment of the game.  But maybe we can be mature enough to disagree with each other without insulting each other. 

You can disagree vehemently and argue ardently, friends, without calling names and insulting each other.  You can.

[Barzalene]

No one is going to get shit on for saying Merry Christmas, because that's stupid. We are collectively not stupid. If someone is being stupid we can ask them to stop it.

[Barzalene]

The above sounds far more antagonistic than intended. Sorry about that.

[Refugee]

No one is going to get shit on for saying Merry Christmas, because that's stupid. We are collectively not stupid. If someone is being stupid we can ask them to stop it.

Bet you're wrong.  But I hope you're right.

[nauta]

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Thanks, and no need to reply with "Oops" or "Sorry".  I want this thread to be a place where people can state their piece once in a thoughtful way so we can hear different viewpoints.  (Obviously you don't have to do that, but it's what I kind of hope for in this thread.)

[LucildaHunta]

I don't really think we can really stop people from discussing politics and religion, especially in an off topic forum. It's something unavoidable and even bleeds into the way people play the game. If you do, then you'll have a review that says you can't talk about what you want even in an off topic forum. The issue to me is someone or someones are being subversive. That's another discussion though.

The off topic forums themselves?  I've learned to stay away from them years ago when there were some questionable racial things posted. I think that's the general sentiment...stay away from religious and political discussions. There seem to be a few people that do enjoy them though and that's great. Why deny them that or think there's anything wrong with having them? It's in the right place.

The issue then becomes Why are political and religious discussions just about the only active threads here? How do we make the forums active again and in a constructive, cordial manner so that the only thing noticeable isn't mostly the politics and religion threads?

I think most people already decided not to participate in politics and religious discussions. What's more disturbing is it seems like people have decided to not participate in the forums at all. I know we have discord but some of us have jobs where we can't access it throughout the day and/or don't have a lifestyle that allows us to be on discord all the time. The forums still have uses, but we have to go back to using them the way they were intended.

[Large Hero]

I think it's better if we don't post about these topics.

1.  Arguing on the internet is a waste of time. It's almost entirely unproductive. Studies have shown that arguing only further entrenches people in their opinions, even when they're shown to be absolutely false. For a true change of opinion to occur, a person has to seek it out on their own, outside the frame of an adversarial debate.

Instead of discussing Trump, let's put that time into sharing thoughts about bone swords, sandstorms, and city elves. That at least has a chance of coming up with a promising roleplay idea or new code idea.


2. I think it does damage the community. Seeing a bickering forum turns off new players. I know I've looked at a game before, checked out its community, saw a bunch of trolls and arguments, and noped out.

Also, the fewer avenues for grudges to develop and potentially spill into the game, the better.


3. At least one dedicated player has been banned as a result of posting their politics/personal opinions. Regardless of whether the ban(s) were justified, and regardless of the nature of the person's opinion, losing dedicated players is a bad thing.

The gain (being able to read someone's political ideas) is terribly outweighed by the loss of the player in Zalanthas.

Even if the ban is gdb-only, the gdb-banned person will usually stop logging into the game, too, because of damaged pride or principle.


I think we should either:

1. Continue as we are, with no official ban, while individually deciding not to discuss religion/politics/divisive issues because doing so is a pointless waste of time that only harms our community, or,

2. Ban all discussion not directly relevant to Armageddon, and enforce it by deleting irrelevant posts.


I would not want to see a ban of certain topics, like "no religion or politics".  For one, there would be all kinds of iffy edge cases and grey area. If there is a ban policy, it should be blanket and absolute. Easy to impartially enforce. No surprises for posters that way.


As I think about it more? I'm in favor of banning all non-Armageddon discussion. People are already all linked up on Discord, Steam, and whatever other chat clients are popular. Nothing of value will be lost from the GDB.

[boog]

I'll talk about anything to anyone. But that's mostly because I'm not an asshole who isn't rooted in their own belief system and enjoys trying to understand other people and their point of view.

[Malken]

When I see someone post about a point of view that totally clashes against mine, it really makes me not want to play with them if I somehow learn that this PC is played by that GDB persona in question.

Is it a rational mature reaction? Probably not but that's just the way I am.

If you love your guns collection and crazy Obama conspiracy theories, that's cool for you but again, it really doesn't make me want to play with you.

[boog]

whew, i'm safe

[Akaramu]

I'll talk about anything to anyone. But that's mostly because I'm not an asshole who isn't rooted in their own belief system and enjoys trying to understand other people and their point of view.

I love you. 

Seriously, people, let's try and be a little open minded? If those discussions stay in their own threads they'll be really easy to avoid looking at.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Fine by me!

[Grapes]

I have seen the things A Large Hero speaks of. We all may be better off conducting our discussions of sensitive topics known to generate conflict through private messages instead of opening them to the playerbase as well as the staff. As Malken has explained, it could color our reactions in game, letting some OOC bleed into IC, which doesn't benefit anyone involved.

I also agree with the no censorship posts, in that I don't think there should be a hard and fast rule on discussing sensitive issues, because it could result in a slippery slope. Whenever a rule is made, that rule needs to be enforced across the board and this could result in some needless losses. I'd hate to see someone get moderated because of a snide, clever jab at a public figure they disagree with, no matter where on the spectrum they are.

The potential solution that I've seen mentioned in this thread involves a personal decision not to feed into it and just let it sit, I know there are times I have fed into such conversations, and this thread has me seriously thinking that I shouldn't do that. As much as I like to discuss things with people, some subjects are just toxic, and require a special understanding between people of differing viewpoints to not be toxic. In some parts of my family there was an unspoken rule, we don't discuss politics, religion, or finances. It took me a heck of a long time but I'm beginning to see wisdom in that. I, personally, think it better if we police ourselves and politely remind eachother, you know, it might be better to discuss that elsewhere, just a thought.

[Akaramu]

When I see someone post about a point of view that totally clashes against mine, it really makes me not want to play with them if I somehow learn that this PC is played by that GDB persona in question.

The only way to avoid this is to not read the GDB. Any discussion (even one related to the game rather than OOC topics) has the potential to spark disagreements about stuff and make you hate someone's guts.

[sleepyhead]

Just keep those topics to dedicated threads and it's fine.

[tapas]

We have also had a few reviews now mentioning the discussion of religion and politics in particular as turn offs.

I'm more inclined to believe that it was not strictly the politics discussion that turned them off. But some of the political views on display. (Not leaving myself out on this.) If they agreed with what they saw, I'd doubt it would even be an issue.

[Malken]

whew, i'm safe

Your pics of my biceps is the only 'gun collection' that matters 

[mansa]

2 Suggestions:

a) Implement an Ignore Thread function of SMF
b) Hide certain sections of the GDB to accounts that are logged in.



a) SMF has add-ons to mark topics as ignore so that the users can make topics 'disappear' from what they are able to view.  This is helpful for those people who can't ignore an unread topic.

b) We should be hiding some things from guest logins that don't have to deal with the game specifically.  These are usually the community discussions and friend discussions - like pictures of our players.  Those shouldn't be public to the internet but to members of the forum.
Forums to be public to guests:
Staff Announcements
General Discussion
World Discussion
Roleplay Discussion
Code Discussion
Player Announcement
Player Colab

Everything else is 'hidden' until you are logged in.

[Lizzie]

When I see someone post about a point of view that totally clashes against mine, it really makes me not want to play with them if I somehow learn that this PC is played by that GDB persona in question.

Is it a rational mature reaction? Probably not but that's just the way I am.

If you love your guns collection and crazy Obama conspiracy theories, that's cool for you but again, it really doesn't make me want to play with you.

that tan suit tho

[Grapes]

I don't think the purpose of this thread meant we should discuss politics in it. The purpose seemed to be the OP sensed a drift in player participation due to OOC causes, and wished us to discuss this without jabs at a particular viewpoint, as to determine a suitable solution to a concern that, some have proven has merit by their very posts. If some are joking, I'd urge you to take this more seriously. This isn't the place to "be right" in a discussion, and dropping bait doesn't address the primary concern, in fact, go drop bait in the non-Armageddon discussions.

EDIT: Does anyone else miss Desertman? I know I do. I don't like his political viewpoints, I don't agree with them, however, it does not matter when it comes to the game. He plays fantastic characters and if he's not playing anymore we lost something vital, and this is only one of the more obvious cases. This is not a social club or a safe space where we hang out with people we like, this is where we congregate to, hopefully fairly, murder, corrupt, and betray eachother. Someone's political bent OOC should mean nothing to me, the only factor should be how badly I want those boots.