Discussion of religion and politics on the gdb

[nauta]

On our discord, we have an informal agreement not to discuss religion and politics.  I think this is good for a variety of reasons, but the main reason is that we are a gaming community and there are other outlets for such discussions.  We have also had a few reviews now mentioning the discussion of religion and politics in particular as turn offs.  (Note: not the content of any particular view, just the discussion itself.)

I think we should have an informal agreement that we not talk about religion and politics on the gdb.  What do you think?

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Do you think we should have an informal agreement to not talk about politics and religion on the gdb as well?

[Akaramu]

I think it would be fine if those topics are discussed in clearly labeled threads that people can choose not to look at. I'm all for freedom of speech and don't think any subjects should be banned. Censorship sucks, let's not support it.

[Barzalene]

Yes. Let's decide not to discuss these topics. That's not censorship. It's defining the norms of our community as a community.

Even when someone's religious and political views line up with mine exactly, discussing them never improves how I feel about then, and often makes me like them less. These discussions are devisive. There's an entire internet where people can go and talk about politics. We don't need it here.

Things have gotten so ugly, I don't even read any non-arm discussions anymore. It would be nice to be able to read everything without fear.

[Barzalene]

We should vote on it.

[Feco]

I'd be fine if we all agreed to just agreed to not talk about it.

I'm not particularly interested in an official ban, though.  It'll turn into a shitfest when people make vague allusions to the topics and get in trouble for it.

[Refugee]

I initially thought, sure why not.  But then I got to thinking about it, and I think it's better if we don't.  I think it's probably a slippery slope.

I can just see some well-meaning person getting shit on because they said Merry Christmas or something.  And then what comes next? 

Maybe a better decision would be to agree to be nice to each other and value each other, and to just scroll on past things that you can only reply to in a way that is hurtful and mean.

Alternately we could do away with all non-game talk.  I've played games where I just didn't read the OOC stuff because it was so nasty it just ruined my enjoyment of the game.  But maybe we can be mature enough to disagree with each other without insulting each other. 

You can disagree vehemently and argue ardently, friends, without calling names and insulting each other.  You can.

[Barzalene]

No one is going to get shit on for saying Merry Christmas, because that's stupid. We are collectively not stupid. If someone is being stupid we can ask them to stop it.

[Barzalene]

The above sounds far more antagonistic than intended. Sorry about that.

[Refugee]

No one is going to get shit on for saying Merry Christmas, because that's stupid. We are collectively not stupid. If someone is being stupid we can ask them to stop it.

Bet you're wrong.  But I hope you're right.

[nauta]

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Thanks, and no need to reply with "Oops" or "Sorry".  I want this thread to be a place where people can state their piece once in a thoughtful way so we can hear different viewpoints.  (Obviously you don't have to do that, but it's what I kind of hope for in this thread.)

[LucildaHunta]

I don't really think we can really stop people from discussing politics and religion, especially in an off topic forum. It's something unavoidable and even bleeds into the way people play the game. If you do, then you'll have a review that says you can't talk about what you want even in an off topic forum. The issue to me is someone or someones are being subversive. That's another discussion though.

The off topic forums themselves?  I've learned to stay away from them years ago when there were some questionable racial things posted. I think that's the general sentiment...stay away from religious and political discussions. There seem to be a few people that do enjoy them though and that's great. Why deny them that or think there's anything wrong with having them? It's in the right place.

The issue then becomes Why are political and religious discussions just about the only active threads here? How do we make the forums active again and in a constructive, cordial manner so that the only thing noticeable isn't mostly the politics and religion threads?

I think most people already decided not to participate in politics and religious discussions. What's more disturbing is it seems like people have decided to not participate in the forums at all. I know we have discord but some of us have jobs where we can't access it throughout the day and/or don't have a lifestyle that allows us to be on discord all the time. The forums still have uses, but we have to go back to using them the way they were intended.

[Large Hero]

I think it's better if we don't post about these topics.

1.  Arguing on the internet is a waste of time. It's almost entirely unproductive. Studies have shown that arguing only further entrenches people in their opinions, even when they're shown to be absolutely false. For a true change of opinion to occur, a person has to seek it out on their own, outside the frame of an adversarial debate.

Instead of discussing Trump, let's put that time into sharing thoughts about bone swords, sandstorms, and city elves. That at least has a chance of coming up with a promising roleplay idea or new code idea.


2. I think it does damage the community. Seeing a bickering forum turns off new players. I know I've looked at a game before, checked out its community, saw a bunch of trolls and arguments, and noped out.

Also, the fewer avenues for grudges to develop and potentially spill into the game, the better.


3. At least one dedicated player has been banned as a result of posting their politics/personal opinions. Regardless of whether the ban(s) were justified, and regardless of the nature of the person's opinion, losing dedicated players is a bad thing.

The gain (being able to read someone's political ideas) is terribly outweighed by the loss of the player in Zalanthas.

Even if the ban is gdb-only, the gdb-banned person will usually stop logging into the game, too, because of damaged pride or principle.


I think we should either:

1. Continue as we are, with no official ban, while individually deciding not to discuss religion/politics/divisive issues because doing so is a pointless waste of time that only harms our community, or,

2. Ban all discussion not directly relevant to Armageddon, and enforce it by deleting irrelevant posts.


I would not want to see a ban of certain topics, like "no religion or politics".  For one, there would be all kinds of iffy edge cases and grey area. If there is a ban policy, it should be blanket and absolute. Easy to impartially enforce. No surprises for posters that way.


As I think about it more? I'm in favor of banning all non-Armageddon discussion. People are already all linked up on Discord, Steam, and whatever other chat clients are popular. Nothing of value will be lost from the GDB.

[boog]

I'll talk about anything to anyone. But that's mostly because I'm not an asshole who isn't rooted in their own belief system and enjoys trying to understand other people and their point of view.

[Malken]

When I see someone post about a point of view that totally clashes against mine, it really makes me not want to play with them if I somehow learn that this PC is played by that GDB persona in question.

Is it a rational mature reaction? Probably not but that's just the way I am.

If you love your guns collection and crazy Obama conspiracy theories, that's cool for you but again, it really doesn't make me want to play with you.

[boog]

whew, i'm safe

[Akaramu]

I'll talk about anything to anyone. But that's mostly because I'm not an asshole who isn't rooted in their own belief system and enjoys trying to understand other people and their point of view.

I love you. 

Seriously, people, let's try and be a little open minded? If those discussions stay in their own threads they'll be really easy to avoid looking at.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Fine by me!

[Grapes]

I have seen the things A Large Hero speaks of. We all may be better off conducting our discussions of sensitive topics known to generate conflict through private messages instead of opening them to the playerbase as well as the staff. As Malken has explained, it could color our reactions in game, letting some OOC bleed into IC, which doesn't benefit anyone involved.

I also agree with the no censorship posts, in that I don't think there should be a hard and fast rule on discussing sensitive issues, because it could result in a slippery slope. Whenever a rule is made, that rule needs to be enforced across the board and this could result in some needless losses. I'd hate to see someone get moderated because of a snide, clever jab at a public figure they disagree with, no matter where on the spectrum they are.

The potential solution that I've seen mentioned in this thread involves a personal decision not to feed into it and just let it sit, I know there are times I have fed into such conversations, and this thread has me seriously thinking that I shouldn't do that. As much as I like to discuss things with people, some subjects are just toxic, and require a special understanding between people of differing viewpoints to not be toxic. In some parts of my family there was an unspoken rule, we don't discuss politics, religion, or finances. It took me a heck of a long time but I'm beginning to see wisdom in that. I, personally, think it better if we police ourselves and politely remind eachother, you know, it might be better to discuss that elsewhere, just a thought.

[Akaramu]

When I see someone post about a point of view that totally clashes against mine, it really makes me not want to play with them if I somehow learn that this PC is played by that GDB persona in question.

The only way to avoid this is to not read the GDB. Any discussion (even one related to the game rather than OOC topics) has the potential to spark disagreements about stuff and make you hate someone's guts.

[sleepyhead]

Just keep those topics to dedicated threads and it's fine.

[tapas]

We have also had a few reviews now mentioning the discussion of religion and politics in particular as turn offs.

I'm more inclined to believe that it was not strictly the politics discussion that turned them off. But some of the political views on display. (Not leaving myself out on this.) If they agreed with what they saw, I'd doubt it would even be an issue.

[Malken]

whew, i'm safe

Your pics of my biceps is the only 'gun collection' that matters 

[mansa]

2 Suggestions:

a) Implement an Ignore Thread function of SMF
b) Hide certain sections of the GDB to accounts that are logged in.



a) SMF has add-ons to mark topics as ignore so that the users can make topics 'disappear' from what they are able to view.  This is helpful for those people who can't ignore an unread topic.

b) We should be hiding some things from guest logins that don't have to deal with the game specifically.  These are usually the community discussions and friend discussions - like pictures of our players.  Those shouldn't be public to the internet but to members of the forum.
Forums to be public to guests:
Staff Announcements
General Discussion
World Discussion
Roleplay Discussion
Code Discussion
Player Announcement
Player Colab

Everything else is 'hidden' until you are logged in.

[Lizzie]

When I see someone post about a point of view that totally clashes against mine, it really makes me not want to play with them if I somehow learn that this PC is played by that GDB persona in question.

Is it a rational mature reaction? Probably not but that's just the way I am.

If you love your guns collection and crazy Obama conspiracy theories, that's cool for you but again, it really doesn't make me want to play with you.

that tan suit tho

[Grapes]

I don't think the purpose of this thread meant we should discuss politics in it. The purpose seemed to be the OP sensed a drift in player participation due to OOC causes, and wished us to discuss this without jabs at a particular viewpoint, as to determine a suitable solution to a concern that, some have proven has merit by their very posts. If some are joking, I'd urge you to take this more seriously. This isn't the place to "be right" in a discussion, and dropping bait doesn't address the primary concern, in fact, go drop bait in the non-Armageddon discussions.

EDIT: Does anyone else miss Desertman? I know I do. I don't like his political viewpoints, I don't agree with them, however, it does not matter when it comes to the game. He plays fantastic characters and if he's not playing anymore we lost something vital, and this is only one of the more obvious cases. This is not a social club or a safe space where we hang out with people we like, this is where we congregate to, hopefully fairly, murder, corrupt, and betray eachother. Someone's political bent OOC should mean nothing to me, the only factor should be how badly I want those boots.

[James de Monet]

I think part of the problem is that this isn't just a game.  It's also a community.  People have friends here, whether they know each other in person or not.  It's natural to want to talk about stuff other than Arm with people you like, the same as a bowling league inevitably gets some beers and talks about stuff other than bowling.

I think the idea of a Debate sub-forum to the Non-Arm forum is a good idea.  I think no one should have access by default.  If you want access, you request it, just like with clan forums.  If you prove you can't maintain your calm or neighborliness in that forum, you lose access, to just that forum. 

People who don't want to see that discussion, won't.  Guests won't.  Brand new players won't.  People who want to, will, unless they then prove they aren't mature enough.  People who aren't mature enough for divisive issues can still be a part of the community, can still play the game, without feeling like an outcast.  If a discussion starts to get political, no one gets in trouble, they just get told to move (or the posts get moved) to the debate forum.  Everyone wins, IMHO.

Edited to add: In retrospect, it would probably be better to call it the 'Hot Button Issues' forum or some such.  That way it's clear it's not only for debate, and debates about how to address game issues would not appear out of place outside of it.

[Melkor]

I think heated discussions are tons of fun. Seems silly to ban something that a person could simply ignore.

There are people with whom I have butted heads, but that does not mean there is any animosity from my end. If I still played the game, I would enjoy playing with all of you.

I think we're all adults that can handle heavy conversations, and follow the rules of the game.

[Grapes]

Butting heads can be fun, with consenting parties, but being on full display invites participation from those who may take things too seriously. I agree with James, special sub-forum, have to request access, if too antagonistic and/or immature can be banned, but given some moderation I've been witness to in the past, perhaps such a sub-forum would require a different, sort of moderator, maybe staff should be blocked off from it because, it can make the already difficult job of being objective more difficult. Or we could, use discord or PMs for it.

[LucildaHunta]

I like the idea of only giving access to people that want those kinds of discussions. I certainly don't want to participate in them or even see them. Since it's there though, I'm going to look...even though I don't want to. Those negative feelings do spill over to how you look at the game and how you look at other players.

I agree with Malken. Seeing certain player's point of view on certain things does make you look at them differently. I'd even take it a step further and say it could color how a new or potential player looks or sees the game.

The one thing we all have in common is we enjoy playing Armageddon. I'd rather we focused on that. Since political and religious discussions will never go away there's no point in denying them. Let's just have them a little more separate from everything else. I love the video game thread and the music thread. So not all off topic subjects are so devisive, just certain ones.

[Akaramu]

The one thing we all have in common is we enjoy playing Armageddon.

If that was the only thing holding us together, I would have left years and years ago. I definitely wouldn't be writing this post right now. And I appreciate seeing posts and personal updates from people I played with long ago, but who aren't involved in the game anymore.

In fact, this is my #1 favorite online community and the one I've stuck around in the longest.

[Nao]

There seems to be a general trend to avoid opinions that don't match your own. It happens with TV news, anywhere on the internet and when people select their social circle. That way, people stay inside their own bubble and hardly ever see anything challenging their existing views. I think that's dangerous and breeds extremism.

This doesn't mean we absolutely need political discussions on the gdb, or that they are going to make much of a difference here, but... They need to be happening somewhere, and everyone seems to be avoiding them just to avoid conflict, instead.

I get staff not wanting to moderate these threads. I don't get players who want them gone because they don't like them - why are you reading them if you don't want to?

[Malken]

The one thing we all have in common is we enjoy playing Armageddon.

If that was the only thing holding us together, I would have left years and years ago. I definitely wouldn't be writing this post right now. And I appreciate seeing posts and personal updates from people I played with long ago, but who aren't involved in the game anymore.

In fact, this is my #1 favorite online community and the one I've stuck around in the longest.

Yeah, I'm like Akaramu - I haven't played in months, maybe even years, but I still read the GDB like 3-4 times a day.

[Grapes]

I don't mind saluting some achievement another player has earned in real life. I feel it's natural to want to celebrate the victories of a member of the community, even if they landed a politically polarized job, like working a political campaign or organizing protests for one idea or the other.
I certainly gather that it's also important to sympathize with community members who are feeling down and, if you can come up with the right words, encourage them and prop them up from the funk they may be feeling.
These are things we can embrace others for and encourage a sense of community. Where it falls apart is where bitter disagreements come into play. Things are very polarized as far as partisanship, they have been for a long time, but they continue to get worse. At our base, we are human beings, who all want, and need, the same sense of support and community as any other human being. There are issues that drive a wedge into that, and some cannot separate, ok, that person is a Republican, from, that guy wants poor people to starve, hates women, and is probably a Nazi because his current social priorities differ from my own. This is as unfair as comparing a liberal to, certain murderous far-left tyrants who shall remain unnamed.

None of us can control what the others think, but this is a hot button issue and a flashpoint for discontent. The problem is, when such toxic elements bubble on the forums, they find their way into the game we love, where they do not belong. This is but one issue of OOC issues being brought out ICly, possibly not the most prominent one, as so some gossip about who screwed who over IG over messengers can also cause some rather metagamey IC interactions... not only that, but they misadvertise the purpose of the community. We're here to play a game, not tell you how to vote, or determine whether you're an idiot or not. I'm sure it's taxing to forum mods to determine what's over the line or not.

EDIT: I chose not to name certain names because this community is an international community, and certain powers are in place that may take issue with dissent among our players from some other countries. As Americans we often take our right to voice our frustrations to extremes, but we're not always thinking about the global community, or the potential fallout for others who browse the forums in places with different laws.

[Refugee]

I get staff not wanting to moderate these threads. I don't get players who want them gone because they don't like them - why are you reading them if you don't want to?

Ah.  This.  This is Important.

There is a troubling movement recently to silence people whose opinions we don't like or who upset us.  Very troubling.  And dangerous.

It's necessary to learn to manage your own emotions and control your own access to it.  If you can't handle it, don't read it.  Don't require that because you can't handle it, nobody gets to have it.

I realize that the OP is not talking about this extreme of a step.  I'm just saying...it's a slippery slope.

I find the idea of keeping access to those kinds of discussion threads for community members only is wise, though.  Let's do that.  People who are not invested in the community don't need to be where people are opening up and allowing themselves to be vulnerable by talking about opinions that might not be popular.

I'm okay with people opting in (or out) though it's kind of strange to feel the need to.  I bet the same people who can't police themselves into not reading a thread won't be able to keep themselves from opting in.  But why not try it?  I don't see how it would hurt.

[nauta]

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

[path]

It's an old fashioned sentiment, but one I agree with, that speaking about politics and religion is impolite.

The reasoning behind this is that as an open topic these close held beliefs can cause friction and discomfort, and that's what polite is about. It's about ensuring the comfort of those you keep company with, whether as friends, acquaintances or in business.

I think these sorts of discussions are best held privately, which is why I don't engage in them here.

[Is Friday]

If it brings more activity back to the GDB, sure. I doubt it would, though. The GDB is pretty dead compared to discord. Live comm is way better than message boards for purposes of entertainment. It's also more enjoyable in most cases as you're getting feedback in real time.

edit:

I don't mind either way. I have decided to stop posting in the politics thread, personally.

[Aruven]

Meh.
As always, I'll swing with the community as a whole for the good of all.

[BadSkeelz]

Man this is a much more irritating thread than I thought it would be when I saw "Discussion of religi..." in the General Discussion forum.

[BadSkeelz]

Know what really hurt the GBD? Closing the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread.

The rules of what Can and Cannot be discussed are very strict, for very good reason. We don't discuss code because it could lead to abuse. We don't discuss current (or even recent) in-game events because it could shatter the OOC/IC Barrier which sets Arm apart. There's relatively few areas to discuss, and they're all done to death. Start a thread about any mechanic or roleplaying and I bet I could find a 10 pager where i'ts already been discussed.

That's where the Random Armageddon Topics thread came in. It let us post and respond to random thoughts. It wasn't terribly coherent and didn't make for a good resource to direct someone to, but it was Stimulating.

Without RAT, the only thing really interesting to me on the GDB is the Game topic, RPTs, and the Politics thread (Because shitposting works better than coffee). If you don't like a thread, don't read it. And since there's not a lot to like on the GDB right now (threads are either divisive or boring), no one is going to read and post here.

[Is Friday]

Gorram it, he's right.

BRING RAT BACK.

[Grapes]

THIRDED. Bring RAT back.

[LucildaHunta]

Discord is RAT and much, much more.

The forums are still good for clan stuff and public events.

[boog]

I hate Discord. It's too spammy.

[Akaramu]

The good thing about forums is that they don't eat up hours of your time you should be spending elsewhere.

[valeria]

This wouldn't affect me much either way because I no longer read the OOC section of the forums. The only reason I'm in this thread is because it's masquerading as an IC general discussion because it's in the general discussion section. I read my clan forums frequently, staff announcements frequently, and the IC discussion section on occasion.

Then again, I stopped reading the OOC section because I have zero desire to interface with people about their shitty opinions on politics, religion, social justice, and whether my existence as a queer person is valid, so maybe this might bring me back. I don't know.

Anyone who cares to know me better can PM me about linking accounts on Facebook, where I find it a lot easier to remove toxic people from my life.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is so weird to me. I can't help but feel like it's people who's interest in the game and community has died, wanting to do everything they can to keep enjoying the community despite the fact that that ship has already sailed.

If the bickering you see here is killing your interest in Armageddon maybe you were never that interested.

I wonder how many of you go out and have discussions in other communities. This one is pretty great. If you get more enjoyment not participating in OOC chatter that might get heated, then by all means, don't. Taking it away isn't going to suddenly make you like the players and game more.


Also, yes. Closing RAT really killed a lot of fun ARM discussion.

[Wasteland Wanderer]

In general, it's more important how we discuss things than what's being discussed. We can have discussions on politics and religion if they are without person attacks and judgement. However there is something about religion and politics that gets people all emotional so, if people can't be nice and polite then maybe it's better not to have those kinds of discussions. It's more important to post with respect and decorum towards other posters than whatever the topic is. If we can't have the former (being nice) with the later (political and religious debate), we're better off with out the distraction.

[Armaddict]

Clicking on threads is entirely optional.  I don't see any reason to disallow OOC chatter from the OOC chatter forum.

Adding permission-oriented states is more burden over something silly.  We don't need more requests clogging up progress via the request tool.

I don't think posts need -moderating- unless they reveal IC info or are -outright and blatant attacks on a fellow player-.  None of this 'that was mean' stuff, because that's such a subjective line people are bound to get snarky when they see themselves moderated, but see similar cases fly by the radar.

All that said, there's absolutely no reason we can't come up with a way to label certain threads in a way that lets people know it's basically more facebook arguments but carried over into the more intellectual community that is Armageddon (which basically means the zingers sting more, and some are entirely numb to zingers you send their way and shrug you off like nothin').

FYI, I do believe the reason this thread was brought up was because of a new player stumbling blindly into a thread and trying to contribute and getting feel-bads from responses.  I don't particularly care, but it -is- worth discussing a means of helping that not happen until they at least get acclimated to the tough, thuggish ruggish life that is GDB discussion.

[valeria]

Expecting people not to get emotional about emotional, upsetting things is pretty peak tone policing. The idea that any discussion must be calm and rational in order to be valid mostly serves to reinforce existing privilege.

[Veselka]

FYI, I do believe the reason this thread was brought up was because of a new player stumbling blindly into a thread and trying to contribute and getting feel-bads from responses.  I don't particularly care, but it -is- worth discussing a means of helping that not happen until they at least get acclimated to the tough, thuggish ruggish life that is GDB discussion.

I think JDM's suggestion of having the OOC discussion not be viewable by Guests is a simple solution. Most people who are going to register either just joined the Byn for the first time, or are giving the game enough of a shot to put in the effort to make an account.

[BadSkeelz]

My feelings are that if you're put off or disheartened by (relatively lowgrade) forum drama, I don't know how how you're going to enjoy this game. That first dose of real Armageddon harshness gave even me acute anxiety when I was a newbie.

[Veselka]

My feelings are that if you're put off or disheartened by (relatively lowgrade) forum drama, I don't know how how you're going to enjoy this game. That first dose of real Armageddon harshness gave even me acute anxiety when I was a newbie.

I'd rather have that shock come from the game itself (which can be even harsher than the forums, considering MCB) than a politics/religion thread in the OOC section of the forums.

[BadSkeelz]

The game can be way harsher, yes. That was my point.

I do have the admitted advantage of treating what goes on in the game way more seriously than whatever is posted on these boards. Especially in the "controversial" ooc threads. ( Why is this thread here, again?)

[nauta]

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Do you think we should have an informal agreement to not talk about politics and religion on the gdb as well?

[BadSkeelz]

Still in the wrong forum. I feel like it's only here to sucker in people who wouldn't normally bother looking at this thread (or the OOC forum in general).

I guess this forum does allow all Armageddon-related dicussion, but I dunno. Guess I'm still ruffled at not getting what I thought this would be.

Also bring back RAT

[Grapes]

I think you're wrong, Badskeelz, aside from wanting to bring back RAT.

[Large Hero]

It's disheartening to see people repeatedly ignoring Nauta's request.

[Fernandezj]

We should not have an informal agreement to not discuss religion or politics on the GDB, because that type of close-minded, refusal to exchange ideas, is part of a larger cultural problem that causes people to be unable to break out of their traditional modes of thinking.

Furthermore, the GDB doesn't seem to represent a large amount of actual game discussion in comparison to off-topic discussions - of which the top 10 are: idle complaints, things that make you happy, dating, music, politics, and voting for the game.

[Grapes]

The issue is, you express an unpopular political viewpoint and people start judging you ICly for that, player and staff alike.

EDIT: I'm not sure how much further I can boil this down, if you don't get it.

[Dalmeth]

This has been a perennial subject for James for at least ten years, and it's even been taken up in limited fashion before.

Fact is, the same people who like to inject their politics into every other topic are still here, and they still freak out when someone runs counter to those politics.

You can't negotiate with people who are just disagreeable for no damned reason.

[Grapes]

Yeah, except this was brought up by Nauta, your James related grudges do not apply. This is an obvious problem and it needs to stop, in my, not so humble opinion. I've already stated my reasons for believing it a bullshit reason to have influencing play. You're free to disagree, but it won't ever change the fact that I think you're full of shit.

[Dalmeth]

Yeah, except this was brought up by Nauta, your James related grudges do not apply. This is an obvious problem and it needs to stop, in my, not so humble opinion. I've already stated my reasons for believing it a bullshit reason to have influencing play. You're free to disagree, but it won't ever change the fact that I think you're full of shit.

Thanks for making my point. 

[BadSkeelz]

I do not feel like we should change our behavior, much less hold ourselves hostage to some communal pact, based on two reviews from people who didn't like the game anyway.

[seidhr]

From a staff perspective I have less than zero interest in supervising polite discourse (moderating) about religion, politics, or other controversial real life topics.  That's not why I staff the game.  It's not why we have these boards.

At the same time in a (totally fictional) perfect world where people can discuss these things maturely, I certainly don't have a problem with them using the GDB as a platform to do it, but when these threads (seemingly invariably) degenerate into name-calling and worse (in the real world) I just want to nuke the threads and sometimes even the entire OOC subforum from orbit.  I believe this is about where most of the staff stands with it.

The idea about having them be opt-in and people who aren't able to hack it without being bad citizens being summarily removed is a decent one, except for the part where we have more GDB administration to do.  That may be the lesser of the evils though.

Mostly, I just wish people who want to discuss that stuff would go do it on forums that are meant for that purpose.  Huffpost, Foxnews, heck even a more broad discussion forum like SomethingAwful.

[Rahnevyn]

My foremost concern is the image of our game and our community, which in large part comes from the GDB. There have been far more than just one or two bad reviews that paint our community in a negative light. It's been a consistent theme. I'll pull some direct quotes to make my point:

Community: Really, really unwelcoming unless you have a friend in the mix. They are toxic and hostile on the forums...

Skip the general discussion board, it was always a craphole and it's only fermented with time.

Trying to ask for help was a nightmare. Between ... the unfriendly forum and the unresponsive live helper chat I could not get a word in edgewise. My introduction to the community was piss-poor and frankly I didn't expect it to get better than that.

I would suggest that you play Armageddon if you are interested in the setting but avoid the GDB (general discussion board)...

Beyond that, the discussion boards of the MUD are full of many an obstinate opinion and passionate argument, both concerning the MUD and not. There are a number of players that come off as bitter and/or condescending, which can be off-putting to a newer player.

The forums are terrifying and toxic. Even posting a simple question or opinion and you are likely going to get treated like the dumbest person ever. Staff will sometimes lock a threat but that is not really fixing the hostile environment.

I would not recommend visiting either of the games forums... The best way to enjoy ArmageddonMUD, is not to expose yourself to the toxicity in the community, and to avoid engaging with players outside the scope of the game whenever possible.

I have a lot more fun when I'm not actively reading the forums or trying to engage with the community.

... I could keep going, but I'll stop there before I get any more depressed. Suffice to say this was by no means an exhaustive list.

In short, be assholes all you want, but keep it inside the game. Outside the game, we really need to think about how we interact with each other and what that says about us as a whole. I think it really starts with fixing the GDB. There are other places you can discuss these topics if you would like. If someone wants to make an "Armageddon Players Debate Life" Facebook group where you can all flame each other to your hearts' content, I highly encourage it. But here, on the official forum for our game, those sorts of topics seem to be doing more damage than they do good. Personally, I'd like to see more lively and constructive discussion about Armageddon the game itself here on the forum, and less use of the forums as a platform for debates unrelated to the game.

The perception issue isn't as simple to dismiss as saying "if you don't like those topics, don't read them." New players won't know which threads they would prefer they had ignored until they already read them. The "recent posts" feature on the GDB will show those threads regardless. They might even see a nice reply from someone in one subforum and then view that player's posts to see them flaming somebody else in a politics thread. The very presence of these topics on the boards implies some level of acceptance by our staff and moderators, when in reality, I don't think any of us want to be moderating these sorts of discussions at all. We'd rather be turning that energy toward the game. Since we aren't moderating closely, when things turn sour and ugly they tend to stay that way for a while, and that is what starts to create the bad perception.

Not discussing political topics on the GDB is not the entire solution, but I do believe it is a good start. Overall, we need to do more to create a positive atmosphere. When creating or replying to topics anywhere on the forum, I would ask you all to keep one thing in mind: are we creating an environment where our players feel welcome to contribute and ask questions, or are turning them away and making them wish they didn't engage at all?

[Miggy]

Personally, I come to Armageddon to relax and play the game. This has been my outlet from the real world for many years. I post very little on the forums unless it is to ask a question or something. It is difficult for many people to separate themselves from RL as it is, and knowing someone's opinion can create hostility that can easily transfer to the game. I'm a vote for not having political or religious discussion (or any other hot button issues that can tee people off) on the Armageddon forum. As some have pointed out, there are many other outlets for that sort of thing.

[ale six]

The forums lately feel like they're in the worst place I've ever seen them. There are not a lot of new threads in the actual game forums - why is that? I wonder if, as some has said, people are taking one look at what is being posted (which seems to be mainly in the OOC section), seeing how we discuss that stuff, and noping right out.

I'm reminded of this pub in Berlin I used to live near. Great food, loved the bartender; he was amazing conversation, super friendly. But the crowd that frequented the place was not very welcoming at all. They would be shout at each other, scream, howl, pound the table, gesture wildly, pull strangers into their arguments and so on. I don't think they were violent folks, just... German.  It wasn't just one group of people, either. It was just kinda how the place was. I sometimes heard them arguing about foreigners, so I didn't really want to try and participate in my broken German with people who might already judge me. Eventually I stopped going by myself, and then altogether.

So why bring up this little anecdote? I guess I just wanted to make a point that you can have a really good product (which Armageddon is), and still turn people away because of how it's perceived (in our case, the forums, and maybe this newfangled Discord thing). Let's not do that.

I'm a pretty private person anyway, so I'm not super interested in sharing my opinions on OOC politics or religion or whatever things with fellow gamers, but I'm interested in sharing my opinion on the GAME plenty with people who can be polite and insightful about it. Let's do more of that on the forum.

PS: No more 300-page long sprawling "A Random Thought" threads, please. Soooooo glad those are gone. Keep discussion organized!

[WanderingOoze]

PS: No more 300-page long sprawling "A Random Thought" threads, please. Soooooo glad those are gone. Keep discussion organized!

That's what Discord is for now 

[James de Monet]

This has been a perennial subject for James for at least ten years, and it's even been taken up in limited fashion before.

Me?  How did this become about me?  I don't actually have anything invested in the idea, I was just chiming with a possible solution to the problem posed by the OP (Nauta).

[Melkor]

Everyone, lets follow OP's rule of not responding to one another. Its a pretty simple rule that is not being observed.

So, from what I can tell, the most legitimate reason for banning troublesome topics on the GDB is that it stokes confrontation, which might be unpalatable for new players.

In my opinion, if a person cannot even witness a heated discussion without feeling discomfort, I do not think that such a person is mature enough to handle the game (as silly as that sounds).

I've seen many conversations on the GDB turn caustic, even when not discussing religion, politics, or any other taboo topics. It seems to me that this game might just be one that appeals to people who relish conflict.

This community is pretty cool. Thats why I still post. If people want a community that is all puppies and rainbows 24/7, I don't think they should look here. If people want a community of interesting, diverse, intelligent people who sometimes butt heads... Welcome to the GDB.

[ale six]

I don't think we should try and judge people as too immature or too sensitive or whatever to play Armageddon simply because they don't approach the forums with the same attitude they do the game. The game and the GDB are different places. What's goes in one shouldn't necessarily go in the other.

Surely it isn't a stretch to say that some people may enjoy roleplaying in a harsh, gritty, unfriendly IC setting yet still appreciate a supportive, open, friendly OOC community.

The objection is not that we need to better accomodate people with too-sensitive sensibilities. The objection is that it's not a good look for our community, and it turns people away who would otherwise engage.

[Large Hero]

People approaching the GDB and the Armageddon OOC community with the same attitude they do the game is one of the worst things about our community.   

The past 10 years or so of the Armageddon community has seen a lot of distrust and hostility. I'm pretty tired of it. I've never really been a target of it, but just seeing people inflict it on each other has led to me taking breaks from the game. At times I've wondered whether I should play the game at all, because I often don't feel aligned with the negative values the community seems to embrace.

I don't think the GDB being a rough, caustic place is a badge of honor we should be proud of.

I wish we'd all start being kinder and more forgiving with each other.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm going to break Nauta's rule about not replying again because I think dialogues are more useful for understanding that shouting alone in to the ether. It's also just how my mind works.

The forums lately feel like they're in the worst place I've ever seen them. There are not a lot of new threads in the actual game forums - why is that? I wonder if, as some has said, people are taking one look at what is being posted (which seems to be mainly in the OOC section), seeing how we discuss that stuff, and noping right out.
[...]

I'm a pretty private person anyway, so I'm not super interested in sharing my opinions on OOC politics or religion or whatever things with fellow gamers, but I'm interested in sharing my opinion on the GAME plenty with people who can be polite and insightful about it. Let's do more of that on the forum.

PS: No more 300-page long sprawling "A Random Thought" threads, please. Soooooo glad those are gone. Keep discussion organized!

As I said before, I believe the forums are where they are now due in large part to the closure of the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread. It was a sprawling, incoherent mass when viewed as a whole, yes. But in real time it was a source of stimulation and inspiration that could be reviewed far more easily than Discord.

If our goal of the forums is to inspire Armageddon play, Discord is a terrible place for it. Setting aside how often we take it juvenile or offtopic, Discord discussion just moves too fast. If you're not in the channel at the time of the discussion, you miss it. Even if you're tagged with @ in the discussion, getting back to that point is a lot harder than it should be. Discord's a great place to hang out and I'm glad we have it, but it is not a replacement for the forums or a Random Armageddon Thoughts thread.

The RAT created a written record where posters could have mini-conversations on their own time, not in real time. If the topic was interesting enough, it could and would get split off in to new threads. Or inspire someone to just create one of their own because they want to further the discussion. I did that plenty of times.

The RAT is also a useful place to test the waters and see what CAN be discussed. The rules are pretty strict for what can and cannot be talked about relating to the game. RAT let us test the boundaries and then start a new thread if it looked like we could get away with stating that crimcode is turned off at night, for example.

Discord doesn't have the same impetus for thread creation. You talk about something, agree/disagree, and move on. The conversation is over, lost to time.

Organized discussion is great but you need someplace to germinate ideas. RAT provided that place. I believe if we looked at the numbers, the amount of Armageddon-related threads and postings slowed down significantly with the RAT's closure. Discord may have further accelerated the shift away from the forums.

As the Armageddon-side of the forums withers, the OOC side becomes more prominent. I'm not sure it's more active (although I wouldn't be surprised if our politics thread of today is bigger than ones in the past, due to a more fractious political climate) but there's less Armageddon posting to outweigh it.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you think people are complaining about this community being toxic because of politics and religion threads, you'd be dead wrong. Most of Arm's drama, what most of those quoted reviews are talking about, has been centered around the staff and players vision of the game and forums, and where they clash.

THIS THREAD ITSELF is a prime example of the easily palatable bickering that tends to go back and forth on these forums. This is the sort of discourse those quotes are talking about. The snark, contempt and ambivalence are all here right now and we're not discussing politics or religion at all.

I honestly think we spend too much time discussing meta and rule bullshit instead of trying to think up ways to be creative and make fun for others in the game.

[Akaramu]

People will disagree about stuff no matter what, and some will judge others for their opinions no matter what. This isn't about religion or politics, it's about people being people.

That said, I believe there are less game related posts than OOC ones because...

-Some veterans have seen all those discussions before, and most likely more than once
-Some veterans are less interested in the game these days and stick around for the OOC community
-The large group of new or newer players might feel they aren't experienced enough to really contribute to discussions. Or maybe they're afraid of being told 'no, this isn't how it works, keep playing for another year and you'll understand'

[Grapes]

I must add, the contributions by staff members in this thread are anything but toxic. I too miss RAT, who closed it?.. was it the guy we somehow disgusted?

[nauta]

I must add, the contributions by staff members in this thread are anything but toxic. I too miss RAT, who closed it?.. was it the guy we somehow disgusted?

Grapes,

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Do you think we should have an informal agreement to not talk about politics and religion on the gdb as well?

Obviously, what I'm asking for in this thread is not a 'rule' and it need not be followed.  But it is a hope I have for this thread that people can say their views without being attacked for them.  If you want to attack a view, start a new thread.  No need to reply to this post either.  Thanks.

ETA: Also this thread is not about RAT.  Start a new thread for that.

[BadSkeelz]

No one is attacking a view. We're disputing them. I'm becoming more personally convinced (thanks to observations made by others and my own reflection on them) that your fundamental premise is wrong. That it isn't the Politics or Religion threads that turn people off, it's threads where the Game itself are debated between players and/or staff. Personally I find the "Hey guys here's what I think we're doing wrong and you're not allowed to challenge that" structure of this thread intensely irritating, far more than any politics thread.

RGS raised a very good point that the most dramatic threads on the forums are ones where the players are arguing with each other, or arguing with staff, over some meta feature of the game. At the time those posts may make varying degrees of sense to us who play the game and can understand the context, but to a newbie we must just appear as insane nerds screaming at each other over inscrutable points of doctrine. They're ugly to look at, but I don't see how we can exactly get rid of them. If we don't have the game meta to talk about, why do we even have this board?

[chrisdcoulombe]

You guys are all awesome, kill ya later!

[ghanima]

No one is attacking a view. We're disputing them. I'm becoming more personally convinced (thanks to observations made by others and my own reflection on them) that your fundamental premise is wrong. That it isn't the Politics or Religion threads that turn people off, it's threads where the Game itself are debated between players and/or staff. Personally I find the "Hey guys here's what I think we're doing wrong and you're not allowed to challenge that" structure of this thread intensely irritating, far more than any politics thread.

Bingo. The toxicity that's often talked about with regards to the GDB is more of the above, to me. Religion and politics isn't even a part of the matter.

But look. Bad reputations are difficult to shake off. They take time. And lots of it. I've actually seen marked change in the overall tone here. Though admittedly I do not read the entirety of the GDB, so maybe I'm missing something? One of the biggest improvements for me is that threads are no longer being locked over the smallest thing (they're not getting locked at all as far as I can tell, which is downright historic for this game!) The kind of sheer pettiness behind all the constant thread locking didn't help with the game's reputation, and in fact it probably made it worse.

I'm glad there seems to be a sense of self-awareness going on here. And I'm not going to talk up the deservedly bad reputation of the community as a whole, as pointed out by Rahnevyn. But I actually think there's been some improvement in more recent times, both player side as well as staff side. The longer everyone keeps it up the more distant the toxicity of the past will be the past. And that isn't to say there isn't room for improvement, just that things aren't quite as bad as they once were and we should take heart in that fact.

[Marauder Moe]

Having thought about this a while... I still haven't come to a conclusion.

I've enjoyed GDB political/moral/whatever discussions in the past.  I don't enjoy it currently. 

I can see how that sort of talk could drive away new players, though in the grand scheme of GDB history I think we've had WAAAAY more heated/toxic ON-TOPIC discussions than off-topic ones.  (Assuming forum mafia doesn't count.  )

Seems like the politics thread has been mostly dead these last few weeks anyway.