Discussion of religion and politics on the gdb

[James de Monet]

I think part of the problem is that this isn't just a game.  It's also a community.  People have friends here, whether they know each other in person or not.  It's natural to want to talk about stuff other than Arm with people you like, the same as a bowling league inevitably gets some beers and talks about stuff other than bowling.

I think the idea of a Debate sub-forum to the Non-Arm forum is a good idea.  I think no one should have access by default.  If you want access, you request it, just like with clan forums.  If you prove you can't maintain your calm or neighborliness in that forum, you lose access, to just that forum. 

People who don't want to see that discussion, won't.  Guests won't.  Brand new players won't.  People who want to, will, unless they then prove they aren't mature enough.  People who aren't mature enough for divisive issues can still be a part of the community, can still play the game, without feeling like an outcast.  If a discussion starts to get political, no one gets in trouble, they just get told to move (or the posts get moved) to the debate forum.  Everyone wins, IMHO.

Edited to add: In retrospect, it would probably be better to call it the 'Hot Button Issues' forum or some such.  That way it's clear it's not only for debate, and debates about how to address game issues would not appear out of place outside of it.

[Melkor]

I think heated discussions are tons of fun. Seems silly to ban something that a person could simply ignore.

There are people with whom I have butted heads, but that does not mean there is any animosity from my end. If I still played the game, I would enjoy playing with all of you.

I think we're all adults that can handle heavy conversations, and follow the rules of the game.

[Grapes]

Butting heads can be fun, with consenting parties, but being on full display invites participation from those who may take things too seriously. I agree with James, special sub-forum, have to request access, if too antagonistic and/or immature can be banned, but given some moderation I've been witness to in the past, perhaps such a sub-forum would require a different, sort of moderator, maybe staff should be blocked off from it because, it can make the already difficult job of being objective more difficult. Or we could, use discord or PMs for it.

[LucildaHunta]

I like the idea of only giving access to people that want those kinds of discussions. I certainly don't want to participate in them or even see them. Since it's there though, I'm going to look...even though I don't want to. Those negative feelings do spill over to how you look at the game and how you look at other players.

I agree with Malken. Seeing certain player's point of view on certain things does make you look at them differently. I'd even take it a step further and say it could color how a new or potential player looks or sees the game.

The one thing we all have in common is we enjoy playing Armageddon. I'd rather we focused on that. Since political and religious discussions will never go away there's no point in denying them. Let's just have them a little more separate from everything else. I love the video game thread and the music thread. So not all off topic subjects are so devisive, just certain ones.

[Akaramu]

The one thing we all have in common is we enjoy playing Armageddon.

If that was the only thing holding us together, I would have left years and years ago. I definitely wouldn't be writing this post right now. And I appreciate seeing posts and personal updates from people I played with long ago, but who aren't involved in the game anymore.

In fact, this is my #1 favorite online community and the one I've stuck around in the longest.

[Nao]

There seems to be a general trend to avoid opinions that don't match your own. It happens with TV news, anywhere on the internet and when people select their social circle. That way, people stay inside their own bubble and hardly ever see anything challenging their existing views. I think that's dangerous and breeds extremism.

This doesn't mean we absolutely need political discussions on the gdb, or that they are going to make much of a difference here, but... They need to be happening somewhere, and everyone seems to be avoiding them just to avoid conflict, instead.

I get staff not wanting to moderate these threads. I don't get players who want them gone because they don't like them - why are you reading them if you don't want to?

[Malken]

The one thing we all have in common is we enjoy playing Armageddon.

If that was the only thing holding us together, I would have left years and years ago. I definitely wouldn't be writing this post right now. And I appreciate seeing posts and personal updates from people I played with long ago, but who aren't involved in the game anymore.

In fact, this is my #1 favorite online community and the one I've stuck around in the longest.

Yeah, I'm like Akaramu - I haven't played in months, maybe even years, but I still read the GDB like 3-4 times a day.

[Grapes]

I don't mind saluting some achievement another player has earned in real life. I feel it's natural to want to celebrate the victories of a member of the community, even if they landed a politically polarized job, like working a political campaign or organizing protests for one idea or the other.
I certainly gather that it's also important to sympathize with community members who are feeling down and, if you can come up with the right words, encourage them and prop them up from the funk they may be feeling.
These are things we can embrace others for and encourage a sense of community. Where it falls apart is where bitter disagreements come into play. Things are very polarized as far as partisanship, they have been for a long time, but they continue to get worse. At our base, we are human beings, who all want, and need, the same sense of support and community as any other human being. There are issues that drive a wedge into that, and some cannot separate, ok, that person is a Republican, from, that guy wants poor people to starve, hates women, and is probably a Nazi because his current social priorities differ from my own. This is as unfair as comparing a liberal to, certain murderous far-left tyrants who shall remain unnamed.

None of us can control what the others think, but this is a hot button issue and a flashpoint for discontent. The problem is, when such toxic elements bubble on the forums, they find their way into the game we love, where they do not belong. This is but one issue of OOC issues being brought out ICly, possibly not the most prominent one, as so some gossip about who screwed who over IG over messengers can also cause some rather metagamey IC interactions... not only that, but they misadvertise the purpose of the community. We're here to play a game, not tell you how to vote, or determine whether you're an idiot or not. I'm sure it's taxing to forum mods to determine what's over the line or not.

EDIT: I chose not to name certain names because this community is an international community, and certain powers are in place that may take issue with dissent among our players from some other countries. As Americans we often take our right to voice our frustrations to extremes, but we're not always thinking about the global community, or the potential fallout for others who browse the forums in places with different laws.

[Refugee]

I get staff not wanting to moderate these threads. I don't get players who want them gone because they don't like them - why are you reading them if you don't want to?

Ah.  This.  This is Important.

There is a troubling movement recently to silence people whose opinions we don't like or who upset us.  Very troubling.  And dangerous.

It's necessary to learn to manage your own emotions and control your own access to it.  If you can't handle it, don't read it.  Don't require that because you can't handle it, nobody gets to have it.

I realize that the OP is not talking about this extreme of a step.  I'm just saying...it's a slippery slope.

I find the idea of keeping access to those kinds of discussion threads for community members only is wise, though.  Let's do that.  People who are not invested in the community don't need to be where people are opening up and allowing themselves to be vulnerable by talking about opinions that might not be popular.

I'm okay with people opting in (or out) though it's kind of strange to feel the need to.  I bet the same people who can't police themselves into not reading a thread won't be able to keep themselves from opting in.  But why not try it?  I don't see how it would hurt.

[nauta]

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

[path]

It's an old fashioned sentiment, but one I agree with, that speaking about politics and religion is impolite.

The reasoning behind this is that as an open topic these close held beliefs can cause friction and discomfort, and that's what polite is about. It's about ensuring the comfort of those you keep company with, whether as friends, acquaintances or in business.

I think these sorts of discussions are best held privately, which is why I don't engage in them here.

[Is Friday]

If it brings more activity back to the GDB, sure. I doubt it would, though. The GDB is pretty dead compared to discord. Live comm is way better than message boards for purposes of entertainment. It's also more enjoyable in most cases as you're getting feedback in real time.

edit:

I don't mind either way. I have decided to stop posting in the politics thread, personally.

[Aruven]

Meh.
As always, I'll swing with the community as a whole for the good of all.

[BadSkeelz]

Man this is a much more irritating thread than I thought it would be when I saw "Discussion of religi..." in the General Discussion forum.

[BadSkeelz]

Know what really hurt the GBD? Closing the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread.

The rules of what Can and Cannot be discussed are very strict, for very good reason. We don't discuss code because it could lead to abuse. We don't discuss current (or even recent) in-game events because it could shatter the OOC/IC Barrier which sets Arm apart. There's relatively few areas to discuss, and they're all done to death. Start a thread about any mechanic or roleplaying and I bet I could find a 10 pager where i'ts already been discussed.

That's where the Random Armageddon Topics thread came in. It let us post and respond to random thoughts. It wasn't terribly coherent and didn't make for a good resource to direct someone to, but it was Stimulating.

Without RAT, the only thing really interesting to me on the GDB is the Game topic, RPTs, and the Politics thread (Because shitposting works better than coffee). If you don't like a thread, don't read it. And since there's not a lot to like on the GDB right now (threads are either divisive or boring), no one is going to read and post here.

[Is Friday]

Gorram it, he's right.

BRING RAT BACK.

[Grapes]

THIRDED. Bring RAT back.

[LucildaHunta]

Discord is RAT and much, much more.

The forums are still good for clan stuff and public events.

[boog]

I hate Discord. It's too spammy.

[Akaramu]

The good thing about forums is that they don't eat up hours of your time you should be spending elsewhere.

[valeria]

This wouldn't affect me much either way because I no longer read the OOC section of the forums. The only reason I'm in this thread is because it's masquerading as an IC general discussion because it's in the general discussion section. I read my clan forums frequently, staff announcements frequently, and the IC discussion section on occasion.

Then again, I stopped reading the OOC section because I have zero desire to interface with people about their shitty opinions on politics, religion, social justice, and whether my existence as a queer person is valid, so maybe this might bring me back. I don't know.

Anyone who cares to know me better can PM me about linking accounts on Facebook, where I find it a lot easier to remove toxic people from my life.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is so weird to me. I can't help but feel like it's people who's interest in the game and community has died, wanting to do everything they can to keep enjoying the community despite the fact that that ship has already sailed.

If the bickering you see here is killing your interest in Armageddon maybe you were never that interested.

I wonder how many of you go out and have discussions in other communities. This one is pretty great. If you get more enjoyment not participating in OOC chatter that might get heated, then by all means, don't. Taking it away isn't going to suddenly make you like the players and game more.


Also, yes. Closing RAT really killed a lot of fun ARM discussion.

[Wasteland Wanderer]

In general, it's more important how we discuss things than what's being discussed. We can have discussions on politics and religion if they are without person attacks and judgement. However there is something about religion and politics that gets people all emotional so, if people can't be nice and polite then maybe it's better not to have those kinds of discussions. It's more important to post with respect and decorum towards other posters than whatever the topic is. If we can't have the former (being nice) with the later (political and religious debate), we're better off with out the distraction.

[Armaddict]

Clicking on threads is entirely optional.  I don't see any reason to disallow OOC chatter from the OOC chatter forum.

Adding permission-oriented states is more burden over something silly.  We don't need more requests clogging up progress via the request tool.

I don't think posts need -moderating- unless they reveal IC info or are -outright and blatant attacks on a fellow player-.  None of this 'that was mean' stuff, because that's such a subjective line people are bound to get snarky when they see themselves moderated, but see similar cases fly by the radar.

All that said, there's absolutely no reason we can't come up with a way to label certain threads in a way that lets people know it's basically more facebook arguments but carried over into the more intellectual community that is Armageddon (which basically means the zingers sting more, and some are entirely numb to zingers you send their way and shrug you off like nothin').

FYI, I do believe the reason this thread was brought up was because of a new player stumbling blindly into a thread and trying to contribute and getting feel-bads from responses.  I don't particularly care, but it -is- worth discussing a means of helping that not happen until they at least get acclimated to the tough, thuggish ruggish life that is GDB discussion.

[valeria]

Expecting people not to get emotional about emotional, upsetting things is pretty peak tone policing. The idea that any discussion must be calm and rational in order to be valid mostly serves to reinforce existing privilege.