Reflexive Magik

[witchman]

You know, thinking about it - maybe it's the players fault that mages aren't scary.  Mage players can play eerie characters.  They can play smart and  grow powerful.  Get a population of badass mages out in the game and people WILL get scared.  Hrm.  Maybe that's the real solution.

[mansa]

There is a population of badass magickers in game.
They are so badass, they are untouchable.


But badass does not equal PK's

[Angela Christine]

Well, I played way back when a magicker (called clerics at the time and there was only 4 and no defilers) could cast while wielding/holding something, and I tell you this, that simple little thing makes them VERY powerful, too powerful.

What about going halfway, and letting them hold a weapon or shield in just one hand?  Single wielding isn't popular with other classes, so a guy holding just one weapon will still attract the suspicion that an unarmed man gets.  (I've seen people accused of being magickers simply because they are unmounted or unarmed outside the gates, to me that boarders on abusing OOC knowledge). Single wielding still leaves your left hand for mystical gestures, without totally obliterating your ability to defend yourself.  If you don't have the weapons skill you will never be very good at that weapon, but at least you won't take defensive penalties for being unarmed.

Angela Christine

[Carnage]

I never really cared for the idea of arcane gestures or words. I always thought it was just a cliche fantasy sort of thing that's been done a million times before. I like the way that Vlad Taltos and Shadowrun do magic: where it's you basically forming it in yourself. It's not something you put words to, it's just you forming energy and directing it. Gesturing with your hands isn't required but might help, just like how you might gesture when you're talking.

In my opinion that's what magick should be. If magick is different for every single magicker, how do they figure out that saying the same words gets them the same results?

[witchman]

There is a population of badass magickers in game.
They are so badass, they are untouchable.


But badass does not equal PK's

I suppose I should redefine.  I meant to say get a populatilon of magickers that are out there killin' and lootin'

[Armaddict]

Okay, the issue was to make magickers -more- scary to other players?


The idea of magickers being scary, -isn't- because they can kick your ass and kill you.  The reason they're scary is because they do -strange- and powerful (to you) things that you can't understand.  Why can't -you- do that?  They're strange.  Who knows what else they can do, stay away from them.

I don't think they need to be given -more- powerful skills for them to be considered scary.  Just look at the magick as the rare and mysterious power that it is, and you'll be scared.

I watched a character get hit by a lightning bolt, and he was only bleeding lightly, but he wigged out.  Had an emote of his arm wiggling out of control (from the electricity), his hair standing on end, and a shaky voice as he turned to me to ask if he had turned green or lost anything important.

He was scared shitless, even though he really didn't come close to dying.

[UnderSeven]

You know, Magickers arn't supposed to be scary from what they do or can do.  Magickers are supposed to be scary for what people don't know IF they can do.  It's all about being affraid of something you don't understand/can't understand/can't do.  The fact is if you read the help, it pretty much lays it out that it doesn't matter what the pcs magickers due, because that isn't where the fear originates from in the first place.  It's superstition/fear of the unknown/prejudice.  And another thing, if people arn't affraid of magickers, it's because they're not rping it very well.  No we don't neeed ubered up magickers, we don't need magickers killing and looting (I don't think that's very ic for many to do anyway) What we need is people to think in the mindset of a zalathaian who views magick as an unknown and scary thing and those who wield it as unknown and scary.

[Anonymous]

What we need is people to think in the mindset of a zalathaian who views magick as an unknown and scary thing and those who wield it as unknown and scary.

Well said.  I don't think that attacking magickers should be viewed as a bad thing, that would be swinging the pendulum too far to the other side.  As I've said in a different thread I had a PC who did just that after being threatened by the magicker.  Considering he had no frame of reference for what the magicker could do, he feared getting his throat cut or magicks being done to him in his sleep.  (I should note my PC died in the process)

On the flip side, I think there's too much of the 'Hey, magickers bleed blood same as you or I'/ooc Type in kill before they can type in an alias - type of gamesmanship when it comes to conflict with a magicker.

I think your average PC would view hunting and killing a magicker as a dicey proposition that they'd only undertake if they thought the magicker was going to kill them or a loved one.

I've had PCs who would have been afraid to fight a magicker because how do you know that cutting them kills them?  Or if you kill them they won't come back and haunt you?

[slipshod]

I have to think that a defensive reflex is  an A-1 appropriate idea.  
The point isn't to make magickers too powerful, and someone pointed out that it really wouldn't give any edge to an experienced mage... it would just balance things a little more with those of a 'lower level'.  

Even if it has its origins in OOC, the fact remains that most people aren't as intimidated by magick as they should be.. again because of the knowledge that initiating combat before they can cast strongly increases your chance of success.  And the argument that a casting alias is up to par with 'hit' or 'kill' doesn't really pan out.  Even if the magicker begins to cast his/her spell before the fighter attacks, there is a brief delay before the spell is actually delivered.... vs. no delay for typing hit or kill.  

Ideally, people could just alter their RP accordingly and put aside the knowledge of their coded combat advantage against a mage.  That sounds like a tall order to fill.. and a reflex like this wouldn't tip the scales at all, IMHO, but would even them out a bit more.  And the atmosphere of the game would benefit.

[Rindan]

Yes, people should just be ICly afraid of magikers.  For better or for worse though, most people play the exception.  If a warrior decides he really wants to kill you and he also has decided that he is the exception, then you have trouble if he ever catches you not fully prepared.  Hell, I have been that warrior who went out and hunted down a magiker.  If you look at some of the things a magiker can do, some form of simple and temporary defense is pocket change.  To give an example that is not too IC, at least one form of magiker has a starting spell that is so powerful, it could effectively stop any non-magikal army dead in its tracks for a time.  Yes, they are supposed to be scary for what you don't know they can do, but they are also scary for what they can do.

Perhaps more then that, magikers are simply supposed to be strange.  Being a magiker wouldn't be a big deal if there wasn't some other queer element to it.  I mean, if alls you have to do to NOT be a magiker is simply not cast, then why would anyone shake with terror at learning they have this ability?  If the only way it has any effect upon your life is if you intentionally decide to start using it, then most sane people (especially in the north) will just not use it.  This adds some of the mystery and surprise back into magikers.  If a terrified merchant suddenly turns into stone right before an angry mercenary punches him and comes away with bloody knuckles that is a 'holy shit' moment.  It makes it clear that this person is not just able to do something that most people can't, but at times simply can't help it.  If I were to say anything is missing from the RP of magikers, it is simply the lack of strangeness about them.

Any sort of defense doesn't have to be over powering.  It might very well be that if you try and skewer a newbie whirian they turn to air and all of their clothing, armor, and backpacks falls to the ground as they turn into air.  A few seconds later they reform naked.  

The idea is to first make the formula for killing a magiker neither simple nor predictable.  Newbie or ancient magiker, there is a set formula for killing one, and it pretty much revolves around attacking when they have no spells up.  Once in combat any mildly decent warrior can do things to make the outcome of the fight unquestionable.  If even an unprepared magiker has the possibility of performing some sort of defense then you might think twice before trying to attack a magiker on your own.  You might get a few friends and still not be totally confident because you simply are not sure what is going to happen.  Unlike now, where unless you are expected you know exactly what is going to happen.

[zanthalandreams]

.. again because of the knowledge that initiating combat before they can cast strongly increases your chance of success.  

Not to single out Slipshod because this kind of thing is being said throughout this whole thread, but come on people.   Doesn't pointing out effective ways of killing a magicker through OOC knowledge count as abusing OOC info?  

I didn't know this little nifty fact and damn if it isn't going to somehow affect the way I play now, whether it be as a magicker character or otherwise.  I'll try not to let it, but won't that always be in the back of my mind?   This isn't something everyone knows, or should know, and while I really like the idea originally presented - maybe this thread should be deleted now.   How many magicker PCs do people experience?   I've had very few come my way in three years of playing this game.  They were very scary to me OOCly and ICly before I read this thread.  

This is not stuff everyone knows.  It's like pointing out a great way for thieves in the city to avoid NPC guards or a weakness in the "guard" skill that will let you kill a noble even if he's surrounded by a zillion guards.   (both hypothetical examples, hopefully)

Cut it out.

[spawnloser]

All I have to say in response to Armaddicts rantings is this...

Bash does work really often against someone that doens't have the skill...so, if Magicker X doesn't have bash, any warrior what has practiced it worth his salt will utterly destroy a magicker, period.  That seems wrong.  Why can't a magicker get off something that is so second nature to them to defend themselves?  I agree with the idea and would love to see it implemented.

(To note, I have never played a magicker...but still think that they should be badder ass than I have seen them.)

[ShaLeah]

I like the idea of magickers reacting to combat with a completely uncontrollable, magickal reaction.  

Whenever combat is initiated, no matter if you're a warrior, thief, assassin, merchant, psi or anything else, the code causes your character to dodge/weave/exchange blows with your opponent, that's a gimme, you defend yourself.  How feasable is it to be so shocked you lose control of the element you have only the barests of controls upon anyway?  Very, in my opinion.

>kill whiran
You try and smack the filthy magicker but he dodges out of the way.
Filthy magicker thinks: By Whira!
Windy shit starts happening around the filthy magicker.
(possibilities)
The prejudiced mercenary disappears with a shocked look upon his face.
The prejudiced mercenary fades into thin air.
The prejudiced mercenary begins to fly.
The prejudiced mercenary has nothing happen to him at all.

(just examples)

It could be totally random and -should- be uncontrollable -if- implemented.  A chance roll where whira's luck (no pun intended) either helps the magicker or the opponent. In my opinion, these spells of panic and reflex would be defensive and cast only upon the opponent, not on the magicker himself.  Furthermore, I would love it if out of complete shock, if there was any innocent bystanders watching, the errant lightning bolt flew past the attacker and zapped Lord Templar Poopy on the butt, I think that would rock.

Imagine attacking a poor, defenseless Vivaduan...

You try and smack the filthy magicker but he dodges out of the way.
Water begins to come out of nowhere in a magicky kinda way as the evil, filthy magicker starts casting.
You are healed!
Magicker thinks: What the fuck?! I'm HEALING HIM?!
Prejudiced mercenary thinks:  I always knew he was a stupid feck, heh.

or for the innocent bystander...


You try and smack the filthy magicker but he dodges out of the way.
The air sizzles with energy in a magicky kinda way as the evil, filthy magicker starts casting.
A lightning bolt shoots out of evil magicky's hands in a bright arc and zaps the bartender!


The possibilities would be enormously enriching and endless RP fun!  It -would- make magickers a bit more feared if they attacking one caused random, element related things to happen to anyone around.

I for one would welcome something like this happening as well as have more respect and fear for the magicker classes.  Way too much niceness surrounds magickers, at least in the southern city.  Hell, I played an ungemmed magicker in Tuluk once who told a native what she was (right before she fled the city) expecting a hunting party oocly... never came.

I suppose I don't understand why this feature would make magickers any less easy to kill by a 40 day old warrior thug murdering raider. With the casting delays and the complexity of mana, I would say it makes it more dangerous not only for possible magicker hunters but for magickers themselves.

Again, I think this is a great idea and hope to see something like it in game some day.

She who would love to cast a reflective fireball on an innocent bystander and who misses her -who closings....

[Carnage]

I don't like the Vivaduan one.

Twink Byn runner comes back after a hard day of hunting outside the gates and is at 30% life. "Oh, I'll just go attack a Vivaduan. They have a random chance of healing me. If it doesn't work the first time, I'll simply keep doing it!"

[UnderSeven]

Heh, I disagree with Shaleah, but come on, how can you disagree with a signature like that. Sort of like Spawn loser.  I mean geeze guys, you make it hard to have oppinions that don't go with yours when you have such cool signatures to stare at.  I mean that little dancing guy and the long script... It's so.. neat.. I find it hard to read your post and not stare transfixed at the signature as it dances across my screen- erm.. yeah, my point.

It's supposed to be hard for magickers to survive, that's all there is to it.  The reason why it's hard is because if a magicker lives long enough to learn their salt, they will literally become practically unstopible.  It won't matter who they're up against, the will destroy them. I don't think we should give magickers a help in getting to that point because those unstopible magickers are also supposed to be RARE.  

Lets look at the issues here.  Fear, okay, we went over that, the fear should be based on the unknown and what they could do, not from what the pcs in game actually do.  So there is no point to make them more pking machines to instill fear.

Second issue, they get killed easily, so we're told.  Now, I've played magickers before, I've seen magickers fight and frankly.. This isn't a problem I've seen.  I'm not going to reveal how or why, but what I will say is this.  If a magicker knows what they're doing, even in a low level, they're something to be reckoned with.  As stated in other posts, they arn't supposed to be fighting classes.  They arn't supposed to be able to type kill, or be in a straight up fight and stand a chance.  Their abilities use COMPLETELY different tactics, but have a magicker who understands that and uses it properly and watch out, those warriors no matter how many days they have are just screwed.  Magickers don't need to be made more powerful, they are a karma class and there is a LOT of reasons why.  If you see them getting killed easily it's probably because the people playing them don't know how to make them last and how to make them utilize their abilities well.  I don't mean to offend those magickers, but I've played a few now and this is never a problem I've had.  

Okay, the third reason I see this going on.  Maybe people feel magickers abilities are a little too narrow.  That all they can really do is what is in their spells.  This isn't exactly true.  Magicker rp is in my oppinion the biggest reason for having one.  Just because you don't have a spell that allows to you accidentally fill your pants with water or set someone's pet quirri's tale on fire doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  To say a magicker were to accidentally do something is perfectly reasonable, but that doesn't mean we need it coded.  As far as elementalists doing random effects when stressed out, that does make sense, but not in the form that is being discussed.  Magick is complex, if a elem was being attacked, I would more likely see for instance a whiren causing a gust of wind, the likes of which attacking warrior could probably ignore but which MIGHT frighten him, this is however nothing that the code would be required to do.  

Bottom line, there is no reason to implement this.  Magickers are plenty bad ass, they are infact THE MOST BAD ASS CLASS IN THE ENTIRE GAME.  Elementalist or sorc, hands down.  You see them getting killed, they're just not being played right.

[Quirk]

Bottom line, there is no reason to implement this. Magickers are plenty bad ass, they are infact THE MOST BAD ASS CLASS IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Elementalist or sorc, hands down. You see them getting killed, they're just not being played right.

Not really, not at all in fact.

When a newbie magicker attacks someone or something, he will generally get his butt kicked.

When an older magicker attacks someone or something, he's got good chances of taking them out without a scratch.

Conversely, when a newbie magicker is attacked and tries to cast his way out, he dies. Easily.

When an older magicker is attacked and he is of a class with decent defensive spells and he's prepared, he can possibly still kick some ass.

When an older magicker is attacked and is of a class without decent defensive spells, or is unprepared, and tries to cast his way out, he dies like a newbie.

Magickers can in the long run become very bad-ass, but the huge penalties to fighting unarmed will frequently render them easy prey if they aren't getting to conduct the fight on their own terms.

The problem is, primarily, an OOC one. Often people will go out to kill magickers solo because they OOCly know that an unprepared magicker will die in seconds against a decent combat class. They'd never go hunting a warrior or ranger of possibly greater skill alone, but a dangerous entity with supernatural powers is no problem. Rindan's suggestion, or the idea of some curse being placed on the killer of a magicker, has the merit that there would be an OOC reason to be cautious about hunting magickers that would force people into more realistic RP.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

I agree completely with zalanthandreams.  The details/advice about how to successfully fight magickers seems too IC and isn't necessary to the discussion.   I didn't know any of that before.

I also wish people would stop being the exception and actually RP fear of magickers without the fear coming from the code.

[Crazy Magicker]

I just had to say this.

Any single good magicker can kick the ass of any other class.  One on one the magicker will win.

This discussion seems to revolve around making elementalists harder to kill - well if they are played right they will kill you first.  There is one type of elementalist who is an exception to this but they can escape fast and without harm.

It's all a matter of who gets the jump on who.

Gimme an elementalist with 25 days on it versus a warrior with 25 days on them any day of the week.  I'd kick their 'buff' ass all the way from Tuluk to Allanak with any elementalist class except one.

Fear is generally not a lever one can employ with dwarves,

Rock on Magicker killing dwarves

Also northerners fear but HATE magickers right. How far are they to take this, in deciding to attack or not.  And i think walking into the room with th magicker and oocly deciding to wait until the magicker can cast a spell doesnt make much sense. If you didn't know the person was a mgaicker sure why not. But if you already knew the person is a magicker,  AND you were actively hunting them and had fought them before, no way you would sit there and let them finish chanting gesturing whatever.

[X-D]

Something I think is rather funny about this whole thread is that people are talking about how magickers should be feared.

As a rule, we, humans IRL throughout history have destroyed/killed the things we fear and or do not understand.

Even in prehistory, if you take a spear wielding human from 8k years ago, and he ran across a grizzly, he likly would run, but the grizzly's days are numbered cause that human will be back with a few friends and some extra spears.

I know today, many people who fear snakes and spiders, I mean deathly afraid, and when they see one the first thing they scream is "Ah (points) A spider! KILL IT!"

And if nobody is around to do it for them they will find something big and heavy and screw up enough courage to run up and smash it as quick as possible, rather then know that something they fear may be roaming the house with them.

I've seen people see a baby garter snake in the back yard, 10" long run screaming then a few minutes later come back out with something big sharp and metal and hunt down the dread beast and chop it into tiny little pieces.

Me, I do not fear snakes or spiders, I also do not kill them, the most dangerouse people are the ones that are the most afraid.

[Quirk]

Something I think is rather funny about this whole thread is that people are talking about how magickers should be feared.

As a rule, we, humans IRL throughout history have destroyed/killed the things we fear and or do not understand.

Even in prehistory, if you take a spear wielding human from 8k years ago, and he ran across a grizzly, he likly would run, but the grizzly's days are numbered cause that human will be back with a few friends and some extra spears.

Well, yes. No-one's saying that magickers shouldn't be hunted and killed like the vermin they are, merely that the humans hunting them should accord the same respect as the caveman accorded the grizzly and not go hunting them alone.

Quirk

[Tlaloc]

I seriously think the best solution, for the time being anyway, is for people to play up thier fear, both in the North and South. I see alot of people posting on this thread about how they'd like to see Elementalists more feared - yet I don't see many people actually playing it up in game. Granted, I might just be missing it - but next time you're interacting with a magicker in-game pause and think to yourself: "Am I somehow playing up the fear?"

I would personally like to see less people trying to attempt to kill a mage solo. This, to me, seems like something that would be alittle Out of Character for anyone to do. This is like trying to go hunt an Elephant or a Tiger alone - typically, you don't do it. People will take loads of buddies with them to go kill Silt Horrors, Tarantulas, Carru...but when they see a mage alone in the wilderness, they just go for it and kill.

Whats the difference? I think the difference is, people are typically actually worried that a Silt Horror might end thier character. I'm not going to comment on if Mages are sufficiently powerful - the point is: all mages are feared by the populace of Zalanthas. The end. This is as important an issue to remember as is the fact that elves don't ride, and that Muls are always slaves or escaped slaves.

Nothing in the code actually prevents an elf from getting on a kank, and riding off. But they don't because people have grown to understand and RP the fact that elves just simply don't ride. Nothing in the code forces a dwarf to RP thier focus...but many do, because thats what the documentation reads, and people have grown to understand that there is this thing called a 'focus' that your dwarf is supposed to be striving towards. How is being afraid of a magicker any different? In my opinion, if you are not afraid of a magicker, you are either 1) playing a freak of some kind, or 2) not roleplaying well and following the documentation as it is laid out.

As a personal aside: I'm much more impressed with butch-ass warriors who are three-dimensional characters, who can roleplay being afraid, as well as being corageous cut-throat killers than I am with unemotional freak warriors, who don't bat an eye when they hear they have to fight a Krathi.

The documentation says you are afraid. Ergo: you should probably be afraid.

Incidentally: this does not mean: "Don't interact with magickers." This means treat magickers like you would maybe treat a mekillot that learned to talk, and walk around in Civilized society. Sure, he might be good converation at the bar - but you never know when he's going to snap, and start raging around the city destroying everything. And anything could set 'em off.

[jhunter]

Right, but if attacked by a magicker it doesn't mean your warrior foolishly has to lose his head and go fleeing in terror either.
Some would...probably end up dead someday too...some won't.

I think it's wrong to say that just because they don't go crying like a babe they are rping their char wrong.

Some chars would do just that, some won't, as long as you stick to your role then IMHO your doing just fine.
I agree that noone should go out looking for a magicker on their own, that's just plain crazy with the fear people are supposed to have of them. That is the extent the fear should go to in general I think, not just every single being running in stark raving terror when it comes to a magicker, unless perhaps that magicker has become very powerful and well known...and has not only the normal fear of magick backing him/her but a repution of some sort as well.
I've seen just plain cowardly types IG, steadfast calm and cool types, completely irrational hotheads, and I think it's realistic that we do have all those different types in the world...hrrrrmmm...just like real life.

[ShaLeah]

I don't like the Vivaduan one.

Twink Byn runner comes back after a hard day of hunting outside the gates and is at 30% life. "Oh, I'll just go attack a Vivaduan. They have a random chance of healing me. If it doesn't work the first time, I'll simply keep doing it!"

Just a clarification... -my- idea of a reactive defense spell would be:

A one time thing that happens when combat first starts.  Fleeing and returning to attack again would not cause another shock/fear spell to shoot out.  You know how when you just finished a battle you can't immediately log out? "You are too excited to leave just yet"?  Once in that mode, your element wouldn't just spaz out a resonse.

Also...  come on now... what kind of idiot would flee and come back just to see if the next spell is going to be something beneficial to him?  Heh.  I find that an amusing thought myself... let's see with another type of magicker.

Combat starts....
By chance the spell cast is giant strenght on a bystander...
Twink thinks:  OooooooOoooOOooh!!!
Twink flees...
Twink comes back...
Twink attacks....
Twink falls asleep immediately...
Twink thinks:  Doh!

Would -you- take that chance?  

She who thinks attacking any magicker would require balls of steel the size of the dragon looming over the city gate...[/i]

[Crazed Krathi]

People don't fear anything in the game that does not affect their character's permanently.  I offer kudos to those who actually act with fear and the like - but the vast majority of people don't fear a damned thing that won't kill them.

This includes torture, magickers, poisons that don't kill, nobility, and other assorted 'fearful' things.  At the center of the issue is that only one thing truly affects your character forever: death.

I'd like to see a greater variety of permanent 'hurts' that can inflict a character through a variety of methods.  Torture;  I would like to see a torture command that works in true 'torture chambers' or with 'torture devices' that would permanantly reduce stats (not kill), scar, or even remove body parts.

I would like to see magick that can be cast from afar (target a person) and would then cause that person to suddenly exhibit something extreme and potentially permanently damage them.  Note - this would be an extremely powerful spell that would drain the caster completely as well.  I'd like to see spells that cause an affect to last forever and not just temporarily.  If Buff Warrior who fears nothing attacks Decent Magicker and gets blinded; they shrug it off and sit around until it wears out.  Well, I'd like to see them become permanently blind and having to do something to remove their blindness (or weakness or perm loss of hp, stun, etc etc depending on the spell cast).

This single act will increase the player's fear of attacking a caster (no one wants to put their char in that kind of jeapordy) or of torture and you'll start seeing responses that everyone would like to see.  The players have to fear attacking magickers.  Most people simply can't maintain a 'fear of magickers' ICly if they've actually encountered a bunch and not only survived but kicked ass.

The moment that it happens that one can kill a magicker and still walk away permanently affected in a negative manner is the moment that players will start hesitating about attacking a caster.  

Each magick class has some spell that could be set up to work like this at 'mon.'  There are also 'counters' for almost each affect that could be pursued IC.  

I say screw the 'relex' casting or random extra 'weirdness' during a fight - make this one change and watch the world change to 'how it should be ' in under a month.

No one fears anything at a player level unless it permanently threatens their character and we only have one thing in Arm atm that permanently threatens their char death.  Although there are situations where you can lose body parts but they are 'special' situations and thus the average player doesn't fear it.