Reflexive Magik

[Rindan]

The half joking thread on exploding elementalist gave me an interesting idea.  I personally think that people are too confident in their abilities to kill elementalists.  They know that if they can start swinging before an elementalist starts casting they have a fair chance at victory because elementalists have such poor defense.  A way to combat this would be to give elementalists reflexive defenses.

If I go to hit someone in the face, if they see me coming they will close their eyes, turn their head, and throw up their hands up to defend against the blow without thinking.  A way to combat elementalists being easy pickings when on the defense would be to give them a similar reflex.

I always viewed elementalists as being naturally in tune with their element.  When they cast, they are focusing thier energies to actually control the element.  However, even if they didn't cast they would still exercise an amounts of control over their element.  An angry Krathi will cause torches to flare on reflex.  A sulking drovian will cause the area around him to darken.  They can control it in public of course, but if they were to let go of their control, then these minor acts of magik would happen naturally.

Imagine if all elementalists had a reflexive defense.  In the same way a pissed Krathi might on reflex cause all of the torches in the room to suddenly flare, a scared Krathi would perform some sort of defensive measure like flinching with magik.  The stronger the elementalists, the stronger the reflex.

So, lets say a whirian and a mercenary are in a verbal fight.  Suddenly, the Byn mercenary draw his obsidian blade and swings to skew the whirian.  Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  The Byner swings and his sword finds nothing to hit except air.  If the whirian is weak, he or she might only stay that way long enough to dodge the first round of swings the become solid again.  If the whirian is skilled the she might be able to stay that way for say 10 seconds, more then enough time to sling a spell.

Elementalists would have only one control over this ability.  They would be able to suppress it so that they don't do it.  So, you might type 'reflex off' if you don't want to automatically respond to assaults.  This would be useful if you are going into battle and wouldn't be surprised at being attacked.  Once the reflex is used they wouldn't be able to do it again for another day or so.  The reflex would not be something that could be trained.  It would simply become more effective as you become more powerful.

So, a complete newbie krathi might cause a sudden flash to blind the attacker for a single round of combat.  A skilled krathi might perform a much more powerful flash that blinds everyone in the room for 10 seconds.  Finally, an old master krathi might blind everyone in the room for 30 seconds and have a wave of fire explode from his body, burning everyone in the room.

Magikers would still be very killable, especially weaker magikers who would only be able to defend themselves for a single round of combat.  First, one could simply use magical means to kill a magiker.  Second, a true surprise attack would still be effective.  You could still backstab a magiker.  They might reflex after the fact, but not before the first stab.  Third, you could simply have enough people around before trying to take one down where it doesn't matter.  So, if you are going to assault an ancient and powerful krathi you might send some cannon fodder in first to be the victim of his reflex and have 10 other guys just outside the door waiting for the krathi to blow his load before charging in.

This would make magikers much more feared and make killing one much more of an accomplishment.  It would make cutting down a magiker a very dramatic event because they would never go quietly.  Even a weak magiker would do something before being cut down.  It would encourage forethought and planning before cutting one down and give magikers enough of an edge to survive an encounter with an old warrior even if they are not fully prepared.

As a pleasant side effect it could also lead to interesting ways for people to 'discover' they are magikers.  A merchant who is an elementalist might never learn of his powers until a raider spear passes through his body.  Even better, a crowd of fanatical Northerners might torture someone trying to cause them to reflexively defend themselves and thus prove they are a vile magiker.

[Marauder Moe]

I really like this idea.  It makes sense too since combat PCs get a chance to dodge and will automatically strike back, why wouldn't magickers be able to do the same?

[Ueda]

Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  

I'm trying to imagine and I just don't see it.

I personally think it might put them into shock, since I doubt they are use to weapons flying at their face.

To sum it up I totally disagree.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Who posted this thread? Rindan? I hate Rindan. I despise the air he breaths. But I agree with this. I like this idea, if you include the possibility of no reflex at all happening, and the reflex thing being based on agility and skill in the magick.

But I still hate Rindan.

The above comments about Rindan and his mother are jokes. I do not hate Rindan, since I have never met him, and thusly the above comments are solely for entertainment purposes.

[Rindan]

Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  

I'm trying to imagine and I just don't see it.

I personally think it might put them into shock, since I doubt they are use to weapons flying at their face.

To sum it up I totally disagree.

Sure, they might simply just stand their stupidly as someone goes to skew them.  They might flash into air for a few seconds then flash back without ever moving.  The point isn't that it would be something controlled.  They wouldn't think "Oh shit, a sword is about to impale me!  Quick, I better turn into air!"  If I were to try and punch you in the face you wouldn't think "Oh shit, I better put my arms up in front of my face, close my eyes, and turn my head to deflect the blow."  Even a total coward will generally cover themselves on pure reflex if they are about to be harmed.  It isn't something you think about, it is just something you do.  I am suggesting that someone in tune with the elements would have a similar reflex.  It isn't planned.  It isn't thought about.  It is like blinking before something hits your eye.  

How you react to such an attack of course is up you and how your character is played.  A powerful Krathi might reflexively defend himself from the initial attack then proceed to burn his attackers alive in rage.  A Whirian might perform her defense and have their next move be vanishing or running away.  A Vivaduan might be so shocked at being assaulted that he just stands there.  His defense stops the first few attacks, but instead of doing something useful like running or defending, he just sits there and is eventually skewered.

The idea is to at least give elementalists a fighting chance and make attacking one far riskier, or in the very least cause people to put a little planning and forethought before trying to kill someone with such awesome powers.  If nothing else, it would make the killing of an elementalist far more spectacular.

[Ueda]

spectacular is a opinion. I think the code already gives a -magiker- a fighting chance against someone attacking him,

But I guess I can see some -very- powerful elementalists that could do things like you said.

[Carnage]

I like this idea.

[Dakkon Black]

I like it alot. Right now I see a magicker and it doesnt scare me. I know that he/she will go down with one bash and get killed. Icly I should be filling my pants that at anytime I will just explode because I touched a magicker.

[Armaddict]

Erm...no.

Magickers are plenty dangerous enough.  Weaker ones aren't.  One lives long enough to get powerful, they're scary mother fuckers.

The whole beauty of killing a magicker comes that in you've either got to be real good and quick, catch them by surprise, or get lucky enough that they don't get off a spell.  Whether that spell be fireball, teleport, sleep or whatever.  They've always got something to resort to, and -that- is their reflex.

What you're asking for, basically, is for magickers to be -innately- hard to kill?  So a few 'uber' classes that are powerhouses, most especially against a man who swings a sword.  Ha!  And all this without pushing a button!  So that they can throw their powerful spells at will!  Wow!  What's the 1-800 number on this one?

Blech.

[Malifaxis]

Ueda:

spectacular is a opinion. I think the code already gives a -magiker- a fighting chance against someone attacking him,

You've obviously never played a magicker.

Armaddict said:

(armaddict's entire post)

No, he's not saying make them innately hard to kill.  He's saying 'give them a fighting chance.'

Here's an example.  In this example I will use multiple... example-ettes.
Example-ette one:  
Northern newbie warrior (under 2 days play time) gets his starting gear, gets some new shell duds at the Salarr shop and picks up a sharp stick.  Northern newbie warrior goes out and finds Vestric X.  Northern newbie warrior proceeds, over the course of the next... five or six minutes (three of that being 'the chase')... to kill the vestric, taking minimal damage.

Example-ette two:
Southern newbie warrior (under 2 days play time) gets his starting gear,
gets some new scrab duds at the Salarr shop and picks up a sharp stick.
Southern newbie warrior goes out and finds Jozhal X.  Southern newbie warrior proceeds, over the course of the next... six to ten minutes (three of that being 'the chase')... to kill the jozhal, taking decent damage (ouch, those claws.)

Example-ette three:
S/N-ern newbie warrior (under 2 days play time) gets his starting gear,
gets some new armor duds at the Salarr shop and picks up a sharp stick.
S/N-ern newbie warrior goes out and runs in to Magicker X outside of the gates.  S/N-ern newbie warrior proceeds to POUND THE LIVING FUCK out of a 5-10 day magicker **WITHOUT BREAKING A SWEAT**.

That, my friend, is ridiculous.  A rat bird and a knee high lizard are more of a threat than a semi-trained magicker.

Rindan, I'm in full support of your idea (if you hadn't guessed) but I would suggest that a mana cost be added... anywhere from a 10-40 pt mana cost for a 'reflexive defense use'.  I would also suggest that perhaps a timer be put on it.  If bynner X jumps Whiran Y, and Whiran Y turns to air for 10 seconds and runs, if bynner X follows and re-assaults, Whiran Y should not turn to air again... because it's expected that he's still in danger.

Also, I am not in agreement with the idea that the reflexive defense would be an automatic thing... there should be a chance that the reflexive defense would not work.  You step out in to the road in the middle of the night, turn to the left, and you see headlights... sometimes you jump to the side, sometimes you stand there and pull a stupid face.

As it stands, if a magicker is anywhere under day, say 10 or 15... they are meat if they run into a warrior with a sharp stick at his fifth hour.  It's insane, it's not cool, and it should be remedied I think.  I'm all for having magickers still struggle to survive, but as it is... it's like stomping on mushrooms.  No challenge to kill one.  It's just... if you're a magicker... and there's a threat... if you aren't really fast at typing run and then spam directions, you're meat.  You're a splat mark, and it's just over.  A warrior or any other class (sans merchant, I believe) has a fighting chance of surviving long enough to run like hell.

The reason that people, in Zalanthas, are not afraid of magickers at the moment is because THERE IS NO REASON TO FEAR THEM IF YOU CAN JUST RIP THEM IN HALF.  Make magickers a survivable class, and people will once again begin to fear them!

I'm probably not coherent at all in my statements, I'm so caffeinated right now my skin is twitching.  I hope I've made at least some sense.

Magicker<10d + Anything = Dead Magicker
Magicker>10d + Anything = Probably Dead Magicker

Is there any way we could re-think this equation?

[Malifaxis]

One more thing

In specific on Armaddict's post:

The whole beauty of killing a magicker comes that in you've either got to be real good and quick, catch them by surprise, or get lucky enough that they don't get off a spell. Whether that spell be fireball, teleport, sleep or whatever. They've always got something to resort to, and -that- is their reflex.

You don't have to be good and quick at all.  I know this from personal experience.

And unless the person playing a melee class is over three quarter's dead in the brain, typing 'bash magicker' is always going to beat out having to type
cast 'blah un element (bing) ohshitIjustdied'
Welcome to Armageddon.

[Armaddict]

Bash -really- doesn't work that often.  Once you're good enough at bash that you'll risk trying it against someone who can and will kill you while you're on the ground by tossing magicks into your prone form, you're good enough that you can kill a magicker.  Bam, welcome to armageddon, you tried to magick the -wrong- warrior.

[Carnage]

And unless the person playing a melee class is over three quarter's dead in the brain, typing 'bash magicker' is always going to beat out having to type
cast 'blah un element (bing) ohshitIjustdied'
Welcome to Armageddon.

Uh, that magicker is just as dumb for not having an alias set up where he could quickly access it. I had aliases set up for all the spells I'd need in emergencies and to quickly get off. The others were more utility spells or something that didn't need to be cast in a hurry.

[Armaddict]

I agree.

You want reflexes?  Use an alias!  Heh.

[Angela Christine]

What if instead of being "free" and totally automatic it was something like the contact skill.  While you have "reflex on" there is a slow but steady mana drain.  Perhaps, like some psi abilities, it would  lower your maximum mana pool by 10 or 20 points while it was active, to represent the energy you are spending to maintain it.  That way when you are alert to potential danger you are ready to take a reflexive action, but if you relaxed and taking a nap in the temple or drunk out of your gourd with your buddies you won't necessarily be ready to suddenly defend yourself.  

You still don't have any control over what your reflexive action is, because it is an unconcious use of your inate abilites.  It could be something that protects you, something that hurts your attacker, or something that is showy but doesn't affect the combat.  Showy things could be like a vivaduan might piss out a big puddle of water, a krathi might throw out something that initially looks like a fireball but instead of doing dammage it covers the attacker in faerie fire so the poor bastard glows for the rest of the day, or a fireball that doesn't actually hit anyone or explode but instead just hovers in the air for an hour and then disappears.

Even when it is an attack, it probably wouldn't be terribly dangerous, just shocking.  I'd say no more than a 20 point attack, not enough to really hurt a healthy target, but enough to make them think.  On the other hand, I wouldn't make it dependant on the "power" of the elementalist, because it is a reflexive use of the inborn link to the element.  This would give new-ish elementalists a boost, without making scary older elementalists much more scary.  Sorcerers probably wouldn't be able to use the reflex, because they don't have an innate connection to anything.

AC

[Summer]

If you can turn it on and off it doesn't seem very reflexive to me....

[witchman]

I think we need to refocus.  The idea of the reflexive magick was to:
a. bring the fear back to the mages
b. reflect their connection to their element

Most of the things we've talked about don't do this or are becoming watered down in the discussion.  I recommend the following:

A mage who is killed (not attacked, killed) will release mana in a way that damages or causes some strange effect to creatures/objects relative to their level of ability as a mage.  This could range from disgust/discomfort all the way up to death for a large number of people.

There would be no turning it off, delay or anything else.  I suppose damage could be relative to a mage's current pool of mana - so you would want a mage to be completely "empty" before you killed him.

Then players wouldn't be so ready to swing a sword at a mage and might, rather, distance themselves from them for fear of getting spewed upon.

It would also make mage hunting a more pricey endeavor for those skilled in it.

[Summer]

I'd say not...

mercy on
kill mage
*you stay the killing blow*
south
draw bow
pull quiver
shoot mage north

[Forest Junkie]

witchman's idea seems more feasible.

Magickers already have an edge on mundane fighting classes in that they can channel their energy into spells, which means certain death on the warrior's part. As of now, if a magicker and a warrior went at it, the one who would win would most likely be the one whom got in the first spell/hit. Believe me, it's not hard to alias mon calm to your vivaduan. Giving these magickers an EXTRA advantage IMO would unbalance the system.

[UnderSeven]

I have to agree with armaddict.
It's true magickers for most of their life will be owned by just about anything that comes there way.. But that's a trade off because if a magicker lives to badasss-dom they own EVERYTHING.  I've seen what magickers can become and by this I mean any magicker class.  I've seen a single magicker walk into a group of blackmoon and drop them all without them even being able to touch him and they knew he was comming!  Giving them a reflex is a bad idea because magickers are supposed to be wusses for most their lives.  If a maxxed magicker who understood being a magicker went at it with a maxxed ANY OTHER CLASS the magicker would probably and most likely obliterate them.  You'll have to trust the staff on this one, magickers are plenty fair just the way they are.  Lower begingings MUCH higher potiental.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Unless your maxxed magicker went at it with a maxxed dwarf with the stats to be very resistant to magick. Then your magicker is fucked.

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with armaddict.
It's true magickers for most of their life will be owned by just about anything that comes there way.. But that's a trade off because if a magicker lives to badasss-dom they own EVERYTHING.  I've seen what magickers can become and by this I mean any magicker class.  I've seen a single magicker walk into a group of blackmoon and drop them all without them even being able to touch him and they knew he was comming!  Giving them a reflex is a bad idea because magickers are supposed to be wusses for most their lives.  If a maxxed magicker who understood being a magicker went at it with a maxxed ANY OTHER CLASS the magicker would probably and most likely obliterate them.  You'll have to trust the staff on this one, magickers are plenty fair just the way they are.  Lower begingings MUCH higher potiental.

I'm pretty sure I was part of that event a year or two back.  Killer stuff.  No pun intended.

That being said I think its the wrong take to try and make magickers cause more damage or explode in grand fashion when being killed.  The idea, to me, isn't to make them more scary.

Just to give them a chance to do something before Senor Uber hits them upside the head and knocks them the fuck out in 2 rounds.

I'll never understand the 'unable to cast while holding something' bit and that is what I think gives magickers such a disadvantage.  Let them hold a shield and gesture with one hand.  Maybe their spells won't or can't be as powerful as they would if they were using both hands or maybe they take a second longer to fire off..  Let them wield a sword and cast with the other.  Its enough of a change to give them something closer to a fighting chance while not giving them some new innate ability to dodge or cast Blowshitupus on death.

[X-D]

Well, I played way back when a magicker (called clerics at the time and there was only 4 and no defilers) could cast while wielding/holding something, and I tell you this, that simple little thing makes them VERY powerful, too powerful.

Mine was a stone cleric, and at under 10days playing time he was simply unstoppable without staff intervention, and at that time it was still mostly H&S, so, the staff did not stop me from killing the armor merchant npc in tuluk and taking everything and slaying anything in my path to get out of town then traveling to nak and selling everything then doing the same thing there and traveling back to tuluk.

At around 20days play time on that char I logged in one day to find out that you could no longer wield or hold and still cast, but by then he had enough time on him that it really did not affect him much.

Today, in many ways magickers are even more powerful then they were in the beginning of this mud, one needs but live long enough and know what they are doing, the same for any class in the game.

And in case you have not guessed, I'm against the reflex spell/action thing, though a final death throw deal would not bother me much since I've always considered mana as stored energy and on death nothing is holding it in check, but the affect should be based on mana remaining and class, not the age of the char killed, cause I don't care how skilled that mage was in life, when dead he is not casting, so skill is not involved and is a simple release of energy.

Now, a death triggered spell that is branched at high level would be interesting, say, something cast on an item and would do nothing at all untill the caster died, then at least affect could be determined by skill.

[Xygax]

Not a staff opinion, mind you, but it is my feeling that magickers (in general) aren't intended to face off with warriors/rangers/etc. one-on-one, and if you find yourself doing that a lot, you're playing your magicker very dangerously (and perhaps incorrectly), and death is a well-earned reward.  

[Anonymous]

Not a staff opinion, mind you, but it is my feeling that magickers (in general) aren't intended to face off with warriors/rangers/etc. one-on-one, and if you find yourself doing that a lot, you're playing your magicker very dangerously (and perhaps incorrectly), and death is a well-earned reward.  

True, but I personally don't think that a dull black gem should be interpreted as a bullseye.

[witchman]

You know, thinking about it - maybe it's the players fault that mages aren't scary.  Mage players can play eerie characters.  They can play smart and  grow powerful.  Get a population of badass mages out in the game and people WILL get scared.  Hrm.  Maybe that's the real solution.

[mansa]

There is a population of badass magickers in game.
They are so badass, they are untouchable.


But badass does not equal PK's

[Angela Christine]

Well, I played way back when a magicker (called clerics at the time and there was only 4 and no defilers) could cast while wielding/holding something, and I tell you this, that simple little thing makes them VERY powerful, too powerful.

What about going halfway, and letting them hold a weapon or shield in just one hand?  Single wielding isn't popular with other classes, so a guy holding just one weapon will still attract the suspicion that an unarmed man gets.  (I've seen people accused of being magickers simply because they are unmounted or unarmed outside the gates, to me that boarders on abusing OOC knowledge). Single wielding still leaves your left hand for mystical gestures, without totally obliterating your ability to defend yourself.  If you don't have the weapons skill you will never be very good at that weapon, but at least you won't take defensive penalties for being unarmed.

Angela Christine

[Carnage]

I never really cared for the idea of arcane gestures or words. I always thought it was just a cliche fantasy sort of thing that's been done a million times before. I like the way that Vlad Taltos and Shadowrun do magic: where it's you basically forming it in yourself. It's not something you put words to, it's just you forming energy and directing it. Gesturing with your hands isn't required but might help, just like how you might gesture when you're talking.

In my opinion that's what magick should be. If magick is different for every single magicker, how do they figure out that saying the same words gets them the same results?

[witchman]

There is a population of badass magickers in game.
They are so badass, they are untouchable.


But badass does not equal PK's

I suppose I should redefine.  I meant to say get a populatilon of magickers that are out there killin' and lootin'

[Armaddict]

Okay, the issue was to make magickers -more- scary to other players?


The idea of magickers being scary, -isn't- because they can kick your ass and kill you.  The reason they're scary is because they do -strange- and powerful (to you) things that you can't understand.  Why can't -you- do that?  They're strange.  Who knows what else they can do, stay away from them.

I don't think they need to be given -more- powerful skills for them to be considered scary.  Just look at the magick as the rare and mysterious power that it is, and you'll be scared.

I watched a character get hit by a lightning bolt, and he was only bleeding lightly, but he wigged out.  Had an emote of his arm wiggling out of control (from the electricity), his hair standing on end, and a shaky voice as he turned to me to ask if he had turned green or lost anything important.

He was scared shitless, even though he really didn't come close to dying.

[UnderSeven]

You know, Magickers arn't supposed to be scary from what they do or can do.  Magickers are supposed to be scary for what people don't know IF they can do.  It's all about being affraid of something you don't understand/can't understand/can't do.  The fact is if you read the help, it pretty much lays it out that it doesn't matter what the pcs magickers due, because that isn't where the fear originates from in the first place.  It's superstition/fear of the unknown/prejudice.  And another thing, if people arn't affraid of magickers, it's because they're not rping it very well.  No we don't neeed ubered up magickers, we don't need magickers killing and looting (I don't think that's very ic for many to do anyway) What we need is people to think in the mindset of a zalathaian who views magick as an unknown and scary thing and those who wield it as unknown and scary.

[Anonymous]

What we need is people to think in the mindset of a zalathaian who views magick as an unknown and scary thing and those who wield it as unknown and scary.

Well said.  I don't think that attacking magickers should be viewed as a bad thing, that would be swinging the pendulum too far to the other side.  As I've said in a different thread I had a PC who did just that after being threatened by the magicker.  Considering he had no frame of reference for what the magicker could do, he feared getting his throat cut or magicks being done to him in his sleep.  (I should note my PC died in the process)

On the flip side, I think there's too much of the 'Hey, magickers bleed blood same as you or I'/ooc Type in kill before they can type in an alias - type of gamesmanship when it comes to conflict with a magicker.

I think your average PC would view hunting and killing a magicker as a dicey proposition that they'd only undertake if they thought the magicker was going to kill them or a loved one.

I've had PCs who would have been afraid to fight a magicker because how do you know that cutting them kills them?  Or if you kill them they won't come back and haunt you?

[slipshod]

I have to think that a defensive reflex is  an A-1 appropriate idea.  
The point isn't to make magickers too powerful, and someone pointed out that it really wouldn't give any edge to an experienced mage... it would just balance things a little more with those of a 'lower level'.  

Even if it has its origins in OOC, the fact remains that most people aren't as intimidated by magick as they should be.. again because of the knowledge that initiating combat before they can cast strongly increases your chance of success.  And the argument that a casting alias is up to par with 'hit' or 'kill' doesn't really pan out.  Even if the magicker begins to cast his/her spell before the fighter attacks, there is a brief delay before the spell is actually delivered.... vs. no delay for typing hit or kill.  

Ideally, people could just alter their RP accordingly and put aside the knowledge of their coded combat advantage against a mage.  That sounds like a tall order to fill.. and a reflex like this wouldn't tip the scales at all, IMHO, but would even them out a bit more.  And the atmosphere of the game would benefit.

[Rindan]

Yes, people should just be ICly afraid of magikers.  For better or for worse though, most people play the exception.  If a warrior decides he really wants to kill you and he also has decided that he is the exception, then you have trouble if he ever catches you not fully prepared.  Hell, I have been that warrior who went out and hunted down a magiker.  If you look at some of the things a magiker can do, some form of simple and temporary defense is pocket change.  To give an example that is not too IC, at least one form of magiker has a starting spell that is so powerful, it could effectively stop any non-magikal army dead in its tracks for a time.  Yes, they are supposed to be scary for what you don't know they can do, but they are also scary for what they can do.

Perhaps more then that, magikers are simply supposed to be strange.  Being a magiker wouldn't be a big deal if there wasn't some other queer element to it.  I mean, if alls you have to do to NOT be a magiker is simply not cast, then why would anyone shake with terror at learning they have this ability?  If the only way it has any effect upon your life is if you intentionally decide to start using it, then most sane people (especially in the north) will just not use it.  This adds some of the mystery and surprise back into magikers.  If a terrified merchant suddenly turns into stone right before an angry mercenary punches him and comes away with bloody knuckles that is a 'holy shit' moment.  It makes it clear that this person is not just able to do something that most people can't, but at times simply can't help it.  If I were to say anything is missing from the RP of magikers, it is simply the lack of strangeness about them.

Any sort of defense doesn't have to be over powering.  It might very well be that if you try and skewer a newbie whirian they turn to air and all of their clothing, armor, and backpacks falls to the ground as they turn into air.  A few seconds later they reform naked.  

The idea is to first make the formula for killing a magiker neither simple nor predictable.  Newbie or ancient magiker, there is a set formula for killing one, and it pretty much revolves around attacking when they have no spells up.  Once in combat any mildly decent warrior can do things to make the outcome of the fight unquestionable.  If even an unprepared magiker has the possibility of performing some sort of defense then you might think twice before trying to attack a magiker on your own.  You might get a few friends and still not be totally confident because you simply are not sure what is going to happen.  Unlike now, where unless you are expected you know exactly what is going to happen.

[zanthalandreams]

.. again because of the knowledge that initiating combat before they can cast strongly increases your chance of success.  

Not to single out Slipshod because this kind of thing is being said throughout this whole thread, but come on people.   Doesn't pointing out effective ways of killing a magicker through OOC knowledge count as abusing OOC info?  

I didn't know this little nifty fact and damn if it isn't going to somehow affect the way I play now, whether it be as a magicker character or otherwise.  I'll try not to let it, but won't that always be in the back of my mind?   This isn't something everyone knows, or should know, and while I really like the idea originally presented - maybe this thread should be deleted now.   How many magicker PCs do people experience?   I've had very few come my way in three years of playing this game.  They were very scary to me OOCly and ICly before I read this thread.  

This is not stuff everyone knows.  It's like pointing out a great way for thieves in the city to avoid NPC guards or a weakness in the "guard" skill that will let you kill a noble even if he's surrounded by a zillion guards.   (both hypothetical examples, hopefully)

Cut it out.

[spawnloser]

All I have to say in response to Armaddicts rantings is this...

Bash does work really often against someone that doens't have the skill...so, if Magicker X doesn't have bash, any warrior what has practiced it worth his salt will utterly destroy a magicker, period.  That seems wrong.  Why can't a magicker get off something that is so second nature to them to defend themselves?  I agree with the idea and would love to see it implemented.

(To note, I have never played a magicker...but still think that they should be badder ass than I have seen them.)

[ShaLeah]

I like the idea of magickers reacting to combat with a completely uncontrollable, magickal reaction.  

Whenever combat is initiated, no matter if you're a warrior, thief, assassin, merchant, psi or anything else, the code causes your character to dodge/weave/exchange blows with your opponent, that's a gimme, you defend yourself.  How feasable is it to be so shocked you lose control of the element you have only the barests of controls upon anyway?  Very, in my opinion.

>kill whiran
You try and smack the filthy magicker but he dodges out of the way.
Filthy magicker thinks: By Whira!
Windy shit starts happening around the filthy magicker.
(possibilities)
The prejudiced mercenary disappears with a shocked look upon his face.
The prejudiced mercenary fades into thin air.
The prejudiced mercenary begins to fly.
The prejudiced mercenary has nothing happen to him at all.

(just examples)

It could be totally random and -should- be uncontrollable -if- implemented.  A chance roll where whira's luck (no pun intended) either helps the magicker or the opponent. In my opinion, these spells of panic and reflex would be defensive and cast only upon the opponent, not on the magicker himself.  Furthermore, I would love it if out of complete shock, if there was any innocent bystanders watching, the errant lightning bolt flew past the attacker and zapped Lord Templar Poopy on the butt, I think that would rock.

Imagine attacking a poor, defenseless Vivaduan...

You try and smack the filthy magicker but he dodges out of the way.
Water begins to come out of nowhere in a magicky kinda way as the evil, filthy magicker starts casting.
You are healed!
Magicker thinks: What the fuck?! I'm HEALING HIM?!
Prejudiced mercenary thinks:  I always knew he was a stupid feck, heh.

or for the innocent bystander...


You try and smack the filthy magicker but he dodges out of the way.
The air sizzles with energy in a magicky kinda way as the evil, filthy magicker starts casting.
A lightning bolt shoots out of evil magicky's hands in a bright arc and zaps the bartender!


The possibilities would be enormously enriching and endless RP fun!  It -would- make magickers a bit more feared if they attacking one caused random, element related things to happen to anyone around.

I for one would welcome something like this happening as well as have more respect and fear for the magicker classes.  Way too much niceness surrounds magickers, at least in the southern city.  Hell, I played an ungemmed magicker in Tuluk once who told a native what she was (right before she fled the city) expecting a hunting party oocly... never came.

I suppose I don't understand why this feature would make magickers any less easy to kill by a 40 day old warrior thug murdering raider. With the casting delays and the complexity of mana, I would say it makes it more dangerous not only for possible magicker hunters but for magickers themselves.

Again, I think this is a great idea and hope to see something like it in game some day.

She who would love to cast a reflective fireball on an innocent bystander and who misses her -who closings....

[Carnage]

I don't like the Vivaduan one.

Twink Byn runner comes back after a hard day of hunting outside the gates and is at 30% life. "Oh, I'll just go attack a Vivaduan. They have a random chance of healing me. If it doesn't work the first time, I'll simply keep doing it!"

[UnderSeven]

Heh, I disagree with Shaleah, but come on, how can you disagree with a signature like that. Sort of like Spawn loser.  I mean geeze guys, you make it hard to have oppinions that don't go with yours when you have such cool signatures to stare at.  I mean that little dancing guy and the long script... It's so.. neat.. I find it hard to read your post and not stare transfixed at the signature as it dances across my screen- erm.. yeah, my point.

It's supposed to be hard for magickers to survive, that's all there is to it.  The reason why it's hard is because if a magicker lives long enough to learn their salt, they will literally become practically unstopible.  It won't matter who they're up against, the will destroy them. I don't think we should give magickers a help in getting to that point because those unstopible magickers are also supposed to be RARE.  

Lets look at the issues here.  Fear, okay, we went over that, the fear should be based on the unknown and what they could do, not from what the pcs in game actually do.  So there is no point to make them more pking machines to instill fear.

Second issue, they get killed easily, so we're told.  Now, I've played magickers before, I've seen magickers fight and frankly.. This isn't a problem I've seen.  I'm not going to reveal how or why, but what I will say is this.  If a magicker knows what they're doing, even in a low level, they're something to be reckoned with.  As stated in other posts, they arn't supposed to be fighting classes.  They arn't supposed to be able to type kill, or be in a straight up fight and stand a chance.  Their abilities use COMPLETELY different tactics, but have a magicker who understands that and uses it properly and watch out, those warriors no matter how many days they have are just screwed.  Magickers don't need to be made more powerful, they are a karma class and there is a LOT of reasons why.  If you see them getting killed easily it's probably because the people playing them don't know how to make them last and how to make them utilize their abilities well.  I don't mean to offend those magickers, but I've played a few now and this is never a problem I've had.  

Okay, the third reason I see this going on.  Maybe people feel magickers abilities are a little too narrow.  That all they can really do is what is in their spells.  This isn't exactly true.  Magicker rp is in my oppinion the biggest reason for having one.  Just because you don't have a spell that allows to you accidentally fill your pants with water or set someone's pet quirri's tale on fire doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  To say a magicker were to accidentally do something is perfectly reasonable, but that doesn't mean we need it coded.  As far as elementalists doing random effects when stressed out, that does make sense, but not in the form that is being discussed.  Magick is complex, if a elem was being attacked, I would more likely see for instance a whiren causing a gust of wind, the likes of which attacking warrior could probably ignore but which MIGHT frighten him, this is however nothing that the code would be required to do.  

Bottom line, there is no reason to implement this.  Magickers are plenty bad ass, they are infact THE MOST BAD ASS CLASS IN THE ENTIRE GAME.  Elementalist or sorc, hands down.  You see them getting killed, they're just not being played right.

[Quirk]

Bottom line, there is no reason to implement this. Magickers are plenty bad ass, they are infact THE MOST BAD ASS CLASS IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Elementalist or sorc, hands down. You see them getting killed, they're just not being played right.

Not really, not at all in fact.

When a newbie magicker attacks someone or something, he will generally get his butt kicked.

When an older magicker attacks someone or something, he's got good chances of taking them out without a scratch.

Conversely, when a newbie magicker is attacked and tries to cast his way out, he dies. Easily.

When an older magicker is attacked and he is of a class with decent defensive spells and he's prepared, he can possibly still kick some ass.

When an older magicker is attacked and is of a class without decent defensive spells, or is unprepared, and tries to cast his way out, he dies like a newbie.

Magickers can in the long run become very bad-ass, but the huge penalties to fighting unarmed will frequently render them easy prey if they aren't getting to conduct the fight on their own terms.

The problem is, primarily, an OOC one. Often people will go out to kill magickers solo because they OOCly know that an unprepared magicker will die in seconds against a decent combat class. They'd never go hunting a warrior or ranger of possibly greater skill alone, but a dangerous entity with supernatural powers is no problem. Rindan's suggestion, or the idea of some curse being placed on the killer of a magicker, has the merit that there would be an OOC reason to be cautious about hunting magickers that would force people into more realistic RP.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

I agree completely with zalanthandreams.  The details/advice about how to successfully fight magickers seems too IC and isn't necessary to the discussion.   I didn't know any of that before.

I also wish people would stop being the exception and actually RP fear of magickers without the fear coming from the code.

[Crazy Magicker]

I just had to say this.

Any single good magicker can kick the ass of any other class.  One on one the magicker will win.

This discussion seems to revolve around making elementalists harder to kill - well if they are played right they will kill you first.  There is one type of elementalist who is an exception to this but they can escape fast and without harm.

It's all a matter of who gets the jump on who.

Gimme an elementalist with 25 days on it versus a warrior with 25 days on them any day of the week.  I'd kick their 'buff' ass all the way from Tuluk to Allanak with any elementalist class except one.

Fear is generally not a lever one can employ with dwarves,

Rock on Magicker killing dwarves

Also northerners fear but HATE magickers right. How far are they to take this, in deciding to attack or not.  And i think walking into the room with th magicker and oocly deciding to wait until the magicker can cast a spell doesnt make much sense. If you didn't know the person was a mgaicker sure why not. But if you already knew the person is a magicker,  AND you were actively hunting them and had fought them before, no way you would sit there and let them finish chanting gesturing whatever.

[X-D]

Something I think is rather funny about this whole thread is that people are talking about how magickers should be feared.

As a rule, we, humans IRL throughout history have destroyed/killed the things we fear and or do not understand.

Even in prehistory, if you take a spear wielding human from 8k years ago, and he ran across a grizzly, he likly would run, but the grizzly's days are numbered cause that human will be back with a few friends and some extra spears.

I know today, many people who fear snakes and spiders, I mean deathly afraid, and when they see one the first thing they scream is "Ah (points) A spider! KILL IT!"

And if nobody is around to do it for them they will find something big and heavy and screw up enough courage to run up and smash it as quick as possible, rather then know that something they fear may be roaming the house with them.

I've seen people see a baby garter snake in the back yard, 10" long run screaming then a few minutes later come back out with something big sharp and metal and hunt down the dread beast and chop it into tiny little pieces.

Me, I do not fear snakes or spiders, I also do not kill them, the most dangerouse people are the ones that are the most afraid.

[Quirk]

Something I think is rather funny about this whole thread is that people are talking about how magickers should be feared.

As a rule, we, humans IRL throughout history have destroyed/killed the things we fear and or do not understand.

Even in prehistory, if you take a spear wielding human from 8k years ago, and he ran across a grizzly, he likly would run, but the grizzly's days are numbered cause that human will be back with a few friends and some extra spears.

Well, yes. No-one's saying that magickers shouldn't be hunted and killed like the vermin they are, merely that the humans hunting them should accord the same respect as the caveman accorded the grizzly and not go hunting them alone.

Quirk

[Tlaloc]

I seriously think the best solution, for the time being anyway, is for people to play up thier fear, both in the North and South. I see alot of people posting on this thread about how they'd like to see Elementalists more feared - yet I don't see many people actually playing it up in game. Granted, I might just be missing it - but next time you're interacting with a magicker in-game pause and think to yourself: "Am I somehow playing up the fear?"

I would personally like to see less people trying to attempt to kill a mage solo. This, to me, seems like something that would be alittle Out of Character for anyone to do. This is like trying to go hunt an Elephant or a Tiger alone - typically, you don't do it. People will take loads of buddies with them to go kill Silt Horrors, Tarantulas, Carru...but when they see a mage alone in the wilderness, they just go for it and kill.

Whats the difference? I think the difference is, people are typically actually worried that a Silt Horror might end thier character. I'm not going to comment on if Mages are sufficiently powerful - the point is: all mages are feared by the populace of Zalanthas. The end. This is as important an issue to remember as is the fact that elves don't ride, and that Muls are always slaves or escaped slaves.

Nothing in the code actually prevents an elf from getting on a kank, and riding off. But they don't because people have grown to understand and RP the fact that elves just simply don't ride. Nothing in the code forces a dwarf to RP thier focus...but many do, because thats what the documentation reads, and people have grown to understand that there is this thing called a 'focus' that your dwarf is supposed to be striving towards. How is being afraid of a magicker any different? In my opinion, if you are not afraid of a magicker, you are either 1) playing a freak of some kind, or 2) not roleplaying well and following the documentation as it is laid out.

As a personal aside: I'm much more impressed with butch-ass warriors who are three-dimensional characters, who can roleplay being afraid, as well as being corageous cut-throat killers than I am with unemotional freak warriors, who don't bat an eye when they hear they have to fight a Krathi.

The documentation says you are afraid. Ergo: you should probably be afraid.

Incidentally: this does not mean: "Don't interact with magickers." This means treat magickers like you would maybe treat a mekillot that learned to talk, and walk around in Civilized society. Sure, he might be good converation at the bar - but you never know when he's going to snap, and start raging around the city destroying everything. And anything could set 'em off.

[jhunter]

Right, but if attacked by a magicker it doesn't mean your warrior foolishly has to lose his head and go fleeing in terror either.
Some would...probably end up dead someday too...some won't.

I think it's wrong to say that just because they don't go crying like a babe they are rping their char wrong.

Some chars would do just that, some won't, as long as you stick to your role then IMHO your doing just fine.
I agree that noone should go out looking for a magicker on their own, that's just plain crazy with the fear people are supposed to have of them. That is the extent the fear should go to in general I think, not just every single being running in stark raving terror when it comes to a magicker, unless perhaps that magicker has become very powerful and well known...and has not only the normal fear of magick backing him/her but a repution of some sort as well.
I've seen just plain cowardly types IG, steadfast calm and cool types, completely irrational hotheads, and I think it's realistic that we do have all those different types in the world...hrrrrmmm...just like real life.

[ShaLeah]

I don't like the Vivaduan one.

Twink Byn runner comes back after a hard day of hunting outside the gates and is at 30% life. "Oh, I'll just go attack a Vivaduan. They have a random chance of healing me. If it doesn't work the first time, I'll simply keep doing it!"

Just a clarification... -my- idea of a reactive defense spell would be:

A one time thing that happens when combat first starts.  Fleeing and returning to attack again would not cause another shock/fear spell to shoot out.  You know how when you just finished a battle you can't immediately log out? "You are too excited to leave just yet"?  Once in that mode, your element wouldn't just spaz out a resonse.

Also...  come on now... what kind of idiot would flee and come back just to see if the next spell is going to be something beneficial to him?  Heh.  I find that an amusing thought myself... let's see with another type of magicker.

Combat starts....
By chance the spell cast is giant strenght on a bystander...
Twink thinks:  OooooooOoooOOooh!!!
Twink flees...
Twink comes back...
Twink attacks....
Twink falls asleep immediately...
Twink thinks:  Doh!

Would -you- take that chance?  

She who thinks attacking any magicker would require balls of steel the size of the dragon looming over the city gate...[/i]

[Crazed Krathi]

People don't fear anything in the game that does not affect their character's permanently.  I offer kudos to those who actually act with fear and the like - but the vast majority of people don't fear a damned thing that won't kill them.

This includes torture, magickers, poisons that don't kill, nobility, and other assorted 'fearful' things.  At the center of the issue is that only one thing truly affects your character forever: death.

I'd like to see a greater variety of permanent 'hurts' that can inflict a character through a variety of methods.  Torture;  I would like to see a torture command that works in true 'torture chambers' or with 'torture devices' that would permanantly reduce stats (not kill), scar, or even remove body parts.

I would like to see magick that can be cast from afar (target a person) and would then cause that person to suddenly exhibit something extreme and potentially permanently damage them.  Note - this would be an extremely powerful spell that would drain the caster completely as well.  I'd like to see spells that cause an affect to last forever and not just temporarily.  If Buff Warrior who fears nothing attacks Decent Magicker and gets blinded; they shrug it off and sit around until it wears out.  Well, I'd like to see them become permanently blind and having to do something to remove their blindness (or weakness or perm loss of hp, stun, etc etc depending on the spell cast).

This single act will increase the player's fear of attacking a caster (no one wants to put their char in that kind of jeapordy) or of torture and you'll start seeing responses that everyone would like to see.  The players have to fear attacking magickers.  Most people simply can't maintain a 'fear of magickers' ICly if they've actually encountered a bunch and not only survived but kicked ass.

The moment that it happens that one can kill a magicker and still walk away permanently affected in a negative manner is the moment that players will start hesitating about attacking a caster.  

Each magick class has some spell that could be set up to work like this at 'mon.'  There are also 'counters' for almost each affect that could be pursued IC.  

I say screw the 'relex' casting or random extra 'weirdness' during a fight - make this one change and watch the world change to 'how it should be ' in under a month.

No one fears anything at a player level unless it permanently threatens their character and we only have one thing in Arm atm that permanently threatens their char death.  Although there are situations where you can lose body parts but they are 'special' situations and thus the average player doesn't fear it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Well, I'd like to see them become permanently blind

That would be -horrifically- OOCly incosiderate to the player. How would you liked to see 'You are blinded!' every time you try to do something? Basically, permanent blindness would cause a player's enjoyment to plummet, and any player affected by it would likely store their character. And storing characters is icky-bad.

Other than that, some of your ideas are quite nice. I espicially like the bit about the torture devices; a fine idea. There's more than whips to torture, people.

[Crazed Krathi]

That would be -horrifically- OOCly incosiderate to the player. How would you liked to see 'You are blinded!' every time you try to do something? Basically, permanent blindness would cause a player's enjoyment to plummet, and any player affected by it would likely store their character. And storing characters is icky-bad.

This is the point.  It is very mean and dangerous.  Blind is merely one aspect and if a player were suddenly confronted with that possibility... well, you'll see a lot of "Oh my God! it's a magicker, RUN! RUN! RUN!"

The other aspect is - while it would be a permanent affect it could be cured with great difficulty.  There are in game mechanisms to allow this.

It'd be up to the player to decide if they wanted to continue playing their character, but the possibility is there.

Anyway, blindness is but one outcome and potentially the worst one which is why I used it as an example.  And it is just an example.  The entire goal is to make the player fearful of messing with a magicker.  Until a player fears it - it won't carry over for long in the game.

[Kankman]

When I first read Rindan's idea I liked it quite a bit. As the thread continued, I still leaned on his side, but I think Tlaloc sumed it all up quite well. Rather than making coded reasons people should fear magick, and torture, the general masses should tighten their belts and tuck in their shirts, rp-wise.

The last time one of my characters was tortured, one of the first things I did was email the mud account with a summary of what went on and a small description revision. I took it as a great opportunity to add a permanent affliction to my character, something they would always take with them. If my character was put into a "bone cruncher of doom" and took a loss to my strength, it would have felt a little less personal. Sure my character would be injured, but I -could- still ignore it in my roleplay, so it doesn't solve the problem to make the change.

As far as magickers go, we really just need to act afraid of them. Somehow. If typing "east;kill magicker;get all corpse" is an OOC reaction, then let me provide an OOC reason to not do so. Often times magickers are special applications, that take a chunk of time to pass though. People put a great deal of thought into these characters, and when they are killed quickly without any RP it sucks just that little bit more.

It bothers me to no end when I see magickers sitting at the bar in un-named taverns being wholeheartedly accepted by those around them. Yuck. Where's the fun in that? Where's the conflict? Those fuckers are outcasts of society for a reason. Now if you've decided acting offensively to them is a stupid idea, good for you, that's right. However, there's no reason that a bit of fearful, or at least nervous behavior can't escape you. Its good.


Non-leathal conflict is good.

[Marauder Moe]

Perhaps instead of giving magickers something to make them more dangerous, give them things so that they can be less?  I'm talking about flavor spells.  Little mostly-benign curses and such.  Vivaduan might make you sweat a lot, making you thirsty and/or sweat-staining your clothes.  Krathi might give you a burning itch between your toes.  A whiran could make you belch a lot.  And so on.

On a side note, perhaps mild diseases should be randomly coded as well?  It would help keep people from assuming that -every- time they get sick its a magick curse.

[Anonymous]

This single act will increase the player's fear of attacking a caster (no one wants to put their char in that kind of jeapordy) or of torture and you'll start seeing responses that everyone would like to see. The players have to fear attacking magickers. Most people simply can't maintain a 'fear of magickers' ICly if they've actually encountered a bunch and not only survived but kicked ass.

The moment that it happens that one can kill a magicker and still walk away permanently affected in a negative manner is the moment that players will start hesitating about attacking a caster.

This is OOC info and should -not- be determining how all your chars react to magickers, either way.
I've had a char struck deaf through magick...as far as I know it was permanent, it lasted over 2mnths IC and it was removed....by the char's death. Had he live longer he would've probably gone out of his way to never be anywhere near a magicker again...because of IC experience (having himself gained a normal fear of magick to an absolute terror of it). Not any OOC decision on my part.
I'm not going to let that experience as a player change how I play every char since then, I'm going to make my role, stick to it and watch them go through changes because of things -they- experience.

They will have the fear of magick to a greater or lesser degree depending upon the char, everyone shouldn't have to fit one carbon-copy mold of a specific degree of fear, how people react to fear depends on the person.

[slipshod]

I still think too much is being made of magicker offense.  That's not what this is about.  The proposed ability is not designed to give an edge to mages, but take an unfair one away from the others.

Think of what a reflex is, and why it's appropriate for a spellcaster to have one.  The are people who are constantly.. consciously controlling their associated element.  They can lose that control, and being attacked is a good catalyst.  Imagine a cool and collected Japanese businessman walking down the street.  This guy is all work, no play.  Solid as a rock.
Then a piano falls from the top of the highrise he is walking by.  He looks up.  He screams.  Same thing with a Krathi who has a club swinging at his head.  He momentarily looses the control he always keeps on himself, and poof... someone's got singed nosehairs.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps instead of giving magickers something to make them more dangerous, give them things so that they can be less?  I'm talking about flavor spells.  Little mostly-benign curses and such.  Vivaduan might make you sweat a lot, making you thirsty and/or sweat-staining your clothes.  Krathi might give you a burning itch between your toes.  A whiran could make you belch a lot.  And so on.

On a side note, perhaps mild diseases should be randomly coded as well?  It would help keep people from assuming that -every- time they get sick its a magick curse.

You know, I really like this idea.  Imagine if each magicker was given a 'curse' type spell whose effects would be, at worst, similar to a really annoying but non-lethal poison.

The flip side would be that it would become bothersome to players after a while if someone was cursing them every 24 hours with some spell that made them automatically emoting out nasty fart.  So maybe make it require a rare or expensive component or something.

Either way, just wanted to say I liked this idea.

[Ueda]

I still think too much is being made of magicker offense.  That's not what this is about.  The proposed ability is not designed to give an edge to mages, but take an unfair one away from the others.
Same thing with a Krathi who has a club swinging at his head.  He momentarily looses the control he always keeps on himself, and poof... someone's got singed nosehairs.

I don't understand what your trying to say in here.

[flurry]

I was thinking about Tlaloc's post and this question came to mind:  realistically, wouldn't PCs who are "exceptions" in that they are mostly fearless about solo combat with mages also be relatively fearless about combat with other terrifying things?    In other words, if you play someone who would boldly solo-attack a magiker, wouldn't it be unrealistic to have them back down from solo-combat with a silt horror?

Maybe a silly question, but just a thought.

[Malifaxis]

Ueda the highly confused wrote:

I don't understand what your trying to say in here.

Okay, think of it like this.  Think of the magicker as a high powered martial artist like Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee is sitting at a bar, drinking (we'll not get in to a 'Bruce Lee didn't drink' arguement here, this is an example).  He's with a few friends, talking and laughing and chilling, getting a bit tipsy.

Lets say you decided, for some INSANE reason to go up and fuck with Bruce Lee.  Now, you've heard of Bruce Lee.  You know Bruce Lee can punch STRAIGHT THROUGH YOUR SKULL.  Or break all your ribs.  Or tie your legs in knots.  Or uppercut you and put your head through the hoop from the 3 point line.  By all rights, you should be SCARED TO FUCK of ever even seeing Bruce Lee frown within 50 feet of you... but you're a twink IRL, so you decide to calculate the facts.  Bruce Lee is drunk (decreasing his hit/dam rolls).  Bruce Lee is talking (decreasing his chance to see your emotive of walking through the bar towards him).  Bruce Lee is sitting (meaning if you hit him, you do more damage).  So you grab your weapons (broken bottle, wielded primary, and a flagon wielded in the off hand).

Now, Bruce Lee was very against the idea of hurting people that were just being random fucks, because they were just random fucks and he could kill the entire population of india within five minutes if they all came rushing at him... and he knew it.  So he held back unless he was in a match.  BUT, you catch him off guard...  you go up, and you somehow manage to surprise him (gotta love those modifiers), you swing in with your bottle, and you scrape him on the shoulder.  Bruce Lee, BEFORE HE CAN THINK ABOUT WHAT HE IS DOING, *reacts* to the assault.  He spins, ties both your arms in knots, breaks all of your ribs, shoves both your legs up through your urethra, and punches your head off and through the uprights half a football field away.  If Bruce Lee had known you were coming, he would have simply batted your attack away, and embarrassed you in some non-lethal manner.

Bruce Lee had immense amounts of martial power, and had to have *insane* self control to not break everyone who surprised him in a physical manner.  Just like if you surprised a krathian, who has to constantly keep his inner fire under wraps, that most likely there would be some crazy backlash that would make your head explode.  Or make all the bottles in the bar boil.

Please, for the love of Tektolnes, tell me you understood that, Ueda.

[Supreme Allah]

I love Rindan's suggestion and Malifaxis' example.

At least from my experience, it seems that any other combat class can from day 1 butcher pretty much any unprepared magicker in seconds. This is not to say that magickers are completely vulnerable - some more experienced ones may indeed be able to fend off the newbiest of warriors. But even then, this magicker will take hideous wounding and require insane reaction speed to type out that lengthy magickal phrase without dying in the delay it takes to actually get that spell off. Also, keep in mind that not every magicker's needed reaction can be solved with the use of a nifty alias simply due to targeting purposes.

I play off my characters' fear of magickers as much as possible, but that doesn't change the fact that virtually any of my characters could probably have gutted every magicker they ever came across. Though magickers may have the ability to hold their own when fighting under their own terms, the sheer speed and lethality of an armed warrior vs an unarmed other doesn't allow your average Joe Magicker even a split-second of error against Joe Bynner. I do feel that Rindan's suggestion, or something similar to it, would solve this.

I simply don't feel that the current code is totally consistent with the world of Zalanthas. The common folk fear magickers, but codewise, any moron with a pointy stick could cut the vast majority of them down in seconds.

While it'd be nice to just go with Tlaloc's suggestion and have everyone shiver or shift their weight when a Krathi walks in - few if any ever having the nerve to challenge them - the unfortunate fact is that until players have a reason to believe it isn't so, you're going to see the aforementioned morons with pointy sticks being the bane of magickers for ages to come.

[Kankman]

I love Rindan's suggestion and Malifaxis' example.

At least from my experience, it seems that any other combat class can from day 1 butcher pretty much any unprepared magicker in seconds.

I don't think magickers are intended as combat classes.

[spawnloser]

It doesn't matter if they can't hold their own in hand to hand...they should still be able to unleash their element and a reflexive release as per the above examples would make sense.  You know how you blink when something comes at your eyes?  That's a reflex.  Unleashing the element when a sword is coming at your eyes?  Why couldn't that be a reflex?

[Supreme Allah]

Although I feel you overanalyzed three words of my post, Kankman, I refer you to this, just as an example:

More than any other mage, sun elementalists are employed for purposes of combat. Although the elementalist him or herself may have certain goals in mind for their life, the fact remains that sun elementalists can do only one thing well, and that is to slay with the heat of the Sun.

Magickers shouldn't be able to fight in the traditional sense, no. I agree with you there I suppose.

But at least one appears to have his magicks very combat-oriented. Despite this, this one particular type of magicker as well as all of the others could be killed in a split second due to something as minute as a typo or just slow typing speed. And again, even if he were experienced enough (likely 10-20 days at least) to prevail in making the other guy - who could, as I said before, be the newbiest of warriors - flee or burn to crispy little bits, he would walk away very close to death, himself.

[slipshod]

Spawnloser sed, "why wouldn't it be a reflex?"


It would be a reflex.

I think some people are still coming at this from the pretense that it would be an offensive reflex, when by the very nature of the suggestion, it is defensive.

Even if it is magick in a combat situation, it doesn't have to be seen as an offensive boon

-edited to show what the first line was in response to, since that poster above me got his submitted before mine, and made mine look sad ):[/quote]

[slipshod]

I realize that it was a rhetorical question, and I misquoted it.. but I'm so hungry.

[Ueda]

Ueda the highly confused wrote:

I don't understand what your trying to say in here.

Okay, think of it like this.  Think of the magicker as a high powered martial artist like Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee is sitting at a bar, drinking (we'll not get in to a 'Bruce Lee didn't drink' arguement here, this is an example).  He's with a few friends, talking and laughing and chilling, getting a bit tipsy.

Lets say you decided, for some INSANE reason to go up and fuck with Bruce Lee.  Now, you've heard of Bruce Lee.  You know Bruce Lee can punch STRAIGHT THROUGH YOUR SKULL.  Or break all your ribs.  Or tie your legs in knots.  Or uppercut you and put your head through the hoop from the 3 point line.  By all rights, you should be SCARED TO FUCK of ever even seeing Bruce Lee frown within 50 feet of you... but you're a twink IRL, so you decide to calculate the facts.  Bruce Lee is drunk (decreasing his hit/dam rolls).  Bruce Lee is talking (decreasing his chance to see your emotive of walking through the bar towards him).  Bruce Lee is sitting (meaning if you hit him, you do more damage).  So you grab your weapons (broken bottle, wielded primary, and a flagon wielded in the off hand).

Now, Bruce Lee was very against the idea of hurting people that were just being random fucks, because they were just random fucks and he could kill the entire population of india within five minutes if they all came rushing at him... and he knew it.  So he held back unless he was in a match.  BUT, you catch him off guard...  you go up, and you somehow manage to surprise him (gotta love those modifiers), you swing in with your bottle, and you scrape him on the shoulder.  Bruce Lee, BEFORE HE CAN THINK ABOUT WHAT HE IS DOING, *reacts* to the assault.  He spins, ties both your arms in knots, breaks all of your ribs, shoves both your legs up through your urethra, and punches your head off and through the uprights half a football field away.  If Bruce Lee had known you were coming, he would have simply batted your attack away, and embarrassed you in some non-lethal manner.

Bruce Lee had immense amounts of martial power, and had to have *insane* self control to not break everyone who surprised him in a physical manner.  Just like if you surprised a krathian, who has to constantly keep his inner fire under wraps, that most likely there would be some crazy backlash that would make your head explode.  Or make all the bottles in the bar boil.

Please, for the love of Tektolnes, tell me you understood that, Ueda.

I still don't see why you think the code doesn't give a magiker a fighting chance against a warrior!

[Gorobei]

It doesn't.  I'll tell you a story.
My brother made his first character, a warrior.  He wandered around, exploring, killing rats and the occasional hooded figure for a while.  He liked to use the temples as resting areas at this point, by the way.  One time he walks into the temple (Ruk, I think) at half hp and notices three characters he's never seen there before.  He managed to kill two of the PCs (the other one ran away).

I've never made a warrior PC, but I'm fairly sure they're not -that- overpowered.

[Ueda]

At least from my experience, it seems that any other combat class can from day 1 butcher pretty much any unprepared magicker in seconds.

Though magickers may have the ability to hold their own when fighting under their own terms, the sheer speed and lethality of an armed warrior vs an unarmed other doesn't allow your average Joe Magicker even a split-second of error against Joe Bynner. I do feel that Rindan's example, or something similar to it, would solve this.

I simply don't feel that the current code is totally consistent with the world of Zalanthas. The common folk fear magickers, but codewise, any moron with a pointy stick could cut the vast majority of them down in seconds.

"from day 1 butcher pretty much any unprepared magicker in seconds. "

All I have to say is the vast majority of magikers I've ran into or heard about could kill someone attacking them like that!

[Malifaxis]

Awesome Allah wrote:

At least from my experience, it seems that any other combat class can from day 1 butcher pretty much any unprepared magicker in seconds.

Slipshod wrote:

The proposed ability is not designed to give an edge to mages, but take an unfair one away from the others.

Crazed Krathi wrote:

People don't fear anything in the game that does not affect their character's permanently. I offer kudos to those who actually act with fear and the like - but the vast majority of people don't fear a damned thing that won't kill them.

Slipshod (who is infinitely wise) added:

Even if it has its origins in OOC, the fact remains that most people aren't as intimidated by magick as they should be.. again because of the knowledge that initiating combat before they can cast strongly increases your chance of success. And the argument that a casting alias is up to par with 'hit' or 'kill' doesn't really pan out. Even if the magicker begins to cast his/her spell before the fighter attacks, there is a brief delay before the spell is actually delivered.... vs. no delay for typing hit or kill.

ubeRindan quipped:

Newbie or ancient magiker, there is a set formula for killing one, and it pretty much revolves around attacking when they have no spells up.

Spawnloser wrote, in 12 point french font:

Why can't a magicker get off something that is so second nature to them to defend themselves?

ShaLeah wisely intoned:

Whenever combat is initiated, no matter if you're a warrior, thief, assassin, merchant, psi or anything else, the code causes your character to dodge/weave/exchange blows with your opponent, that's a gimme, you defend yourself. How feasable is it to be so shocked you lose control of the element you have only the barests of controls upon anyway? Very, in my opinion.

I'm going to stop quoting now, becaue the game just came up, and end it with this:

The reason that I believe that an unprepared magicker does not have a fighting chance against a newbie warrior is due to the incredibly simple fact that THEY DONT HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE AGAINST A NEWBIE WARRIOR IF THEY ARE NOT PREPARED.

A prep'd magicker MAY have a chance of survival, depending on the type of mage and the spells he or she has active at the moment, and also the aliases they have.  MAY.  But probably not.

Tell you what, Ueda... if you want proof, you play a magicker, you PM me when you hit the 10-15 day mark.  I'll find a newbie warrior, hire a hit out on you, and YOU WILL DIE.  (this is a completely farsical statement, I would not do so because it's insanely OOC, but I'm getting tired of arguing this because it seems so completely obvious to anyone who's played a mage and gotten jumped.)

k thx -mgmt.

[Anonymous]

the simple fact that this thread is 5 pages long may lead one to believe that those of us in support of the idea think it is incredibly important.

I actually don't feel that it is necessary or required, or that magickers are inherently unplayable without the change.  That said, I also don't think that the game wouldn't benefit from this, or that it isn't a great idea (dbl negatives).   It is.  

We didn't -need- to be able to tack emotes onto 'say' and 'talk', but DAMN!
How much better is it for the atmosphere of the game now that we can?

[Ueda]

Tell you what, Ueda... if you want proof, you play a magicker, you PM me when you hit the 10-15 day mark.  I'll find a newbie warrior, hire a hit out on you, and YOU WILL DIE.  (this is a completely farsical statement, I would not do so because it's insanely OOC, but I'm getting tired of arguing this because it seems so completely obvious to anyone who's played a mage and gotten jumped.)

Flip the situation K, a 15 day warrior is in a room right and a 10 day mage comes in and does a spell the first think K. Who won the fight?

The mage because of a code advantage

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...the mage because of a code advantage

Maybe. But still, this is not as likely as it is when dealing with a warrior preparing a suprise attack. What one should realize is that we are not trying to give mages an unfair advantage...we have so many things in game which reflect the realism of the world. This 'reflex/random possibility of effect' idea is simply that. Give persons something to worry about both OOC and IC, and reinforce the scariness of magicker hunting.

The fact is this. Magickers should be able to kill easier. They have access to untold amounts of super-natural power! So your example should happen. A warrior should also be able to kill easily, as it is now, but NOT without some sort of catastrophy happening based on chance.

Your character, and you, should not look up to magickers as they do to templars, but they should certianly be as scared of, and perhaps moreso, of magickers than they are of templars.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I don't know if I'm for or against reflex spells, but if I were proposing one, it might look something like this:

Designate an existing spell as a "reflex" spell.  Any time combat is initiated on the caster and the caster is not already in combat (but not when the caster begins combat), the spell activates at whatever strength the caster currently has in it, with the normal chance of failure and normal mana cost, assuming that spell isn't already active on the caster (or attacker, depending on whether it is an offensive or defensive reflex).  The reflex spell activation does not require the caster to be standing, and occurs instantly after combat is initiated.  

It isn't something the caster is consciously calling forth, just something they do by reflex.  This would only apply to elementalists, not sorcerors.  The reflex spell should be one of the starting spells for the class.  Perhaps it could even be designated at character creation, which spell the magicker wants to set as a reflex spell.  They could also choose not to set one.

[Ueda]

The fact is this. Magickers should be able to kill easier.

The fact is Magickers ARE able to kill easier. Maybe not when  LOWER level mages that are attacked by surprise.

[Dan]

I believe you are mistaken Ueda.

[Quirk]

Flip the situation K, a 15 day warrior is in a room right and a 10 day mage comes in and does a spell the first think K. Who won the fight?

The mage because of a code advantage

How many magickers have you played? I've played a couple who passed 10 days, and more who were pretty close to it on their demise. All of those were mages with combat-oriented magick from the word go. All of them would have died easily to a 15-day warrior even given the first cast.

Even assuming you've branched Uber Flaming Fist of Death, which I never have had the luck to at 10 days, a casting failure can still see you die very fast. Unarmed, against a skilled warrior, two rounds is all that's needed to kill you. Seriously. Even if you're clad in semi-decent armour. In the long run, the odds that the mage who takes first strike will win do increase dramatically, but for most people killing an unprepared mage is like killing a merchant.

The ideal solution would be to get everyone to RP it out nicely, but I do think that making an attack on a mage a much riskier proposition would speed up the move to correct RP vastly.

Quirk

[Quirk]

Thought I'd share my thoughts on the possible suggestions made by Rindan and the exploding magicker thread.

The reflexive spell is more or less all gain for a gemmer, but for an ungemmed mage could be a serious disadvantage in some situations. It also subtly changes the dynamics of the control your mage has over magick. I played a magicker a year ago or more who lived in Tuluk at a time when the city was under attack. Like every other red-blooded Tuluki he took up his weapons and defended the city. Like many other Tulukis he got injured in battle. Had he had a reflexive response he couldn't prevent, he would have been spotted as a magicker and turned on by his own side. The reflexive response is not necessarily purely an advantage, especially if you're hiding your magicker nature. However, in that it would help the magicker survive the initial confrontation and set them up to be hunted down once people knew them for a magicker, it would fulfill the RP goals very well.

The curse for the killer of a magicker is interesting as well. The magicker would not gain anything in power or in combat from such a curse, yet the motivation to go kill a magicker alone when it's certain you'd suffer from the curse would diminish. The end result is probably more that people would knock them unconscious, and then drag them subdued to the templarate or leave them in the wilds for some beast to find. I'm not sure how much it would diminish the solo hunting of magickers, but it would certainly add a new level of RP and fear around the proceedings.

Allowing magickers to cast while holding a weapon could well prove rather unbalancing later on, I think, but I could be wrong. It would probably ensure that even an unprepared magicker faced with a newbie ranger or assassin would get a spell or two off, and... and that might be a good thing, because it would encourage people to hunt magickers in groups. I'll have to think more on that. It would make magickers much more dangerous from the start however, and given their long-term progress toward awesome power that could be a Bad Thing for balance.

Quirk

[Gorobei]

Perhaps spells could be changed a bit to imitate ride.  The better you are at it, the more stuff you can have in your hands as you're casting.  That way, you couldn't throw down the scary spells without leaving yourself vulnerable, but it would also give magickers a bit more defense.

[X-D]

First, even without the skill, a magicker being able to hold a weapon while casting is simply too much, I know I have said it before, but I cannot stress it enough.

Possibly a shield would not unbalance things too much, specialy if the code was tweeked a bit so that just using a shield was not the same as being unarmed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Using a shield is not the same as being disarmed. Trust me.

[Anonymous]

First, even without the skill, a magicker being able to hold a weapon while casting is simply too much, I know I have said it before, but I cannot stress it enough.

I don't see it, personally.  I believe you gave an account of some things you did about 10 years ago.  I don't doubt that, but maybe things have changed, because even with a weapon my magickers have gotten their asses handed to them.  By unarmed fighters.  Human ones.  I'm talking knocked the fuck out.

Possibly a shield would not unbalance things too much, specialy if the code was tweeked a bit so that just using a shield was not the same as being unarmed.

That was changed several months ago by Nessalin.  Thankfully.

[Rindan]

I personally don't want to see magikers with the ability to wield and cast at the same time.  The point is that they control the unearthly powers of the world.  I don't really want to see them cower in the corner if suddenly they don't have a weapon.  Further, a weapon really would not change much.  I would still merrily kill any magiker I can get my hands on with a warrior using the exact same method, and believe me, the weapon will have no effect.  Magikers have their own set of very powerful weapons.  When not being jumped, I think things are the way they should be.  Direct conflict is not a terribly good idea for most, but given first strike a relatively experienced mage should do just fine.  The fact that you can always drop a line to the account suggesting some magical first strike that is more subtle then appearing out of thin air and casting flaming ball of death (not that flaming ball of death is bad) is just a bonus.  

The real issue in my mind is that they are rightly perceived as weak if they are not the ones on the offensive.  It also makes dealing with any magiker troubles very easy.  Just assault the offending magiker as soon as possible when he is not fully spelled up and ready to go.  I simply suggest that the formula for killing a magiker be made, well, less formulaic.  If you really fear for your life enough to want to try and kill one, you would be wise to get some friends because you don't know that when you try and make your first bash that you simply want go right through the startled whirian and a few seconds later be on the receiving end of his wrath.  You might still try and make the kill, put a wise person would probably have a few friends to pull your ass out of the fire.

Finally, as others have pointed out it is not all a can of roses.  An ungemmed magiker that is startled might do something foolish.  In many parts of the world this is instance death.  Even if places where it is not instance death it is at least instant intrigue because now they have to figure out what to do with you.  Imagine if you were a merchant for some house your entire life, then one day drunk mercenary goes to hit you and his fist meets flesh turned into stone.  Discovery of your abilities would become purely natural.  It could make it so that that first discovery is not in your hands, adding to the excitement and danger.

[Quirk]

I don't see it, personally.  I believe you gave an account of some things you did about 10 years ago.  I don't doubt that, but maybe things have changed, because even with a weapon my magickers have gotten their asses handed to them.  By unarmed fighters.  Human ones.  I'm talking knocked the fuck out.

Heh, there's a distinct skill factor difference here. An armed 6-day warrior of mine sparred a certain legendary warrior mul who used only his bare hands. My 6-day warrior didn't last very long. Most magickers are seriously unskilled in combat, and similar skill differences apply.

A certain Tuluki magicker of mine I mentioned earlier however grew to perhaps newbie ranger level in ability, though, from helping out occasionally in hunting parties, and was capable of hunting and killing gurth and similar foes; he lasted rather well even facing a halfling. Had he branched Uber Flaming Fist of Death or something similar and could cast while armed, he would have been somewhat unfairly advantaged against the vast majority of foes.

To just take the other side of the discussion for the moment, as it seems to have been under-represented, a reasonably old magicker may be able to survive quite nicely in the wilds, keeping prepared at all times, or find some niche in a populated area where a similar thing is possible.  Attacking a prepared magicker can be a very very different proposition than attacking an unprepared one, especially an advanced magicker. Few magickers live to grow old, though. Hence as most magickers are easily killed people begin to believe all magickers are easily killed, and will hunt them alone.

The paradox is that the newbie magicker is ill-equipped to survive without the support network of a city, but the longer he or she remains there the more likely they are to be discovered and killed - and the necessity of city life forces them to be unprepared lest a templar should spot them. I would wager few of the truly powerful magickers are ever hunted, as they have likely moved out of the areas where they risk being discovered as soon as they grew powerful enough.

Quirk

[Sakra]

Looks like everyone else has posted, so why not me?

I think magickers should have the reflex spell/ability, it doesn't give them an edge, it just adds to the mystery surrounding them, and will help instill some fear of the unknown. Also, when your best friend suddenly turns to stone, RP ensues. I was wondering how my next magicker is going to discover his powers, and this sounds like a great way.

Newbie magickers -truly- suck. I'll give you an example. Two new magickers (I'm talking under an hour here) are fighting a bamuk. Both are as spelled as new magickers can be, one has weapons out to tank, and the other casts spells. After said bamuk hands the first magickers ass to him, they switch, with the unhurt one taking over with weapons, while the other tries to cast. The bamuk won! :oops:  We didn't die, but we were both badly hurt. C'mon, a bamuk? That's like those newbie rangers that get beat up by tregils, and we all laugh at.

I don't know about wielding and casting at the same time, sounds like it could tip the balance. Magickers do need something though, they have to be unarmed to cast, and against -anything- other than a merchant, they die in a few rounds. I had a semi-powerful spelled up mage once try and take someone down once. I died in 3 hits. I wasn't a combat mage, but still.

[Katsumata]

The real question is why this is an issue at all. For years mages didn't have a pressing need for this sort of thing. I submit its because now people are playing mages out in the open, in the cities, amongst large groups of people that they now want this protection, or some sort of protection anyways.

If you don't wish to die to joe newbie who followed you out of a tavern because he fears you and wants you dead, go and hide like every other "sane" magik wielding person has in the past.

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? Why should the code be changed because of your decision? Go and hide in the deepest hole you can find and come out later once you can handle public life.

[Rindan]

There is no great influx of open mages that I have seen.  I have been in Allanak for the past few months and see only a handful of gemmed.  Of those gemmed only two that have stuck around for longer then a month and played consistently.  As to why it is coming up now, it has always been an issue and has always been discussed.  The fear of magikers is one of those basic principles that the MUD is built upon and is what sets it apart from traditional AD&D games.  The idea itself is new (as far as I know), but the talking discussion of fear of magikers is something that has been steadily growing.  

There are two primary reasons for this growing of discussion of fear of magikers.  First, ICly the world has become more hostile to them over the years.  For various reasons (namely the destruction of Tuluk) people have ICly simply become more paranoid.  Unfortunately, PC opinion has not kept up.  PCs are generally far less afraid then should be.  Tlaloc's put it best in his post (page 4 of this thread), which I suggest you take a peek at if have not already.  Second, the MUD is simply becoming better.  There is and has been a steady drive to bring the world in line with the harshness which it is supposed to represent.  The RP is tighter and the world is more brutal.  The thirst code change and the harshening of the desert are two examples of this.  This suggestion is very similar to increasing the thirst rates.  The idea is to instill and appreciation for a certain part of Zalanthas' unique atmosphere.  The thirst code makes you appreciate water, reflexive magik make you appropriate have more fear of magik.

The idea is not meant to make a mages life any easier.  In fact, having your hidden magiker suddenly turn into water because a Byn punched you would make it harder.  The idea is to instill the proper fear of magikers and make it so that a lone Byner doesn't get it in his head that is a good idea to go magiker hunting alone.  The change won't make mages all powerful.  It just might mean that you think a little harder before trying to kill one and bring a friend or two.

[Ueda]

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? .

You took the words right out of my mouth I swear!

[Malifaxis]

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? Why should the code be changed because of your decision? Go and hide in the deepest hole you can find and come out later once you can handle public life.

Because perhaps, just PERHAPS, there are people that wish to:

A:  Play a magicker
B:  Not get jumped by Joe Fucking Bynner and instadie
C:  Fucking interract with other people.

If you're getting the idea that I'm a little bit bloody irritated at this point, well gee, I guess you're right.

Oh yeah, and there's also the fact that even if you go hide in a fucking hole and spam cast your shit to crank your skills while still having a minimal possibility of... oh what's that called again... STARVING TO FUCKING DEATH... then there's a few other things:

A:  You're spam casting and twinking
B:  You have no fun because you have no one to interract with
C:  YOU STILL GET FUCKING SLAUGHTERED IF JOE BYNNER CATCHES YOU.

If you don't wish to die to joe newbie who followed you out of a tavern because he fears you and wants you dead, go and hide like every other "sane" magik wielding person has in the past.

The sheer and simple fact of the matter is that shit like this SHOULD NOT FUCKING HAPPEN.  That damn newbie, if they have read the docs enough to know to be afraid of bloody magickers, should be too afraid because of the horror stories he has heard IC to come within five damn rooms of you.

The reason no one fears magickers is because THERE IS NO REASON TO FEAR MAGICKERS.  Reflexive magick is an EXCELLENT way to increase the fear, because you never f'ing know what the hell is going to happen if you attack one.

Right now, the fear level stands at this:
"Oh, it's a Krathi... some of my eq might pick up that nifty 'burned' status"

That's so bullshit.  It should be around the level of:
"Oh, it's a Krathi... if I spill my drink on him I'll suffer a thousand kings ages of burning torture."

[Ueda]

Oh yeah, and there's also the fact that even if you go hide in a fucking hole and spam cast your shit to crank your skills while still having a minimal possibility of... oh what's that called again... STARVING TO FUCKING DEATH... then there's a few other things:

A:  You're spam casting and twinking
B:  You have no fun because you have no one to interract with
C:  YOU STILL GET FUCKING SLAUGHTERED IF JOE BYNNER CATCHES YOU.

I think you got the wrong idea about what I said. I think that people should be a BIT more carefull about who they let know there a magiker.

[Anonymous]

I know that magickers can become pretty powerful, especially certain magicker guilds.  So powerful that some of them can go whop-bam-boom and insta-kill people through some different tactics.

So in the end I'd rather not see changes made to the magicker class.  Holding/wielding, special reflex abilities, what have you.

What bothers me is this.  There's a PC who is able through magickal abilities to not always be easily noticed.  Someone easily notices them.  Their response?  kill magicker.

Its the very rarest of warrior-type (not necessarily guild but just stereotypical tough-guy) who when talking about magickers to my many PCs didn't end up saying something to the effect of 'they bleed just like you or I' and would just attack without question.

And that's the sad part to me.  I believe most people on Zalanthas would view attacking something so capable of doing the uknown as suicidal.  If you survive, how do you know that you've killed the magicker?  That it won't come back to live the next time neither moon is in the sky?  That it wasn't a mirage that you thought you killed?

Instead most PCs I've met are coming from a 0hp = dead PC regardless of giuld standpoint.

Just once I'd like to see the buff warrior run back to town, round up a posse hunt the magicking bastard down and do him in but good and proper like.  Maybe going through some sort of ritual one of them knows will kill it forever because his father's mother was told a story about how if you fill the skull with salt and toss it into the silt sea it will just come back to life then die again over and over, unable to move.  Or maybe you have to scatter the body parts so that they cannot find each other.

Something more than the pervasive attitude of me buff warrior, me no fear puny magicks, RAAARRRRGH, SMASH!

I'm not saying the warrior has to die, just act more scared than he would if attacked by a gortok, tembo or some other predator lacking in otherworldly powers.

[Quirk]

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? .

You took the words right out of my mouth I swear!

Inaccurate words, anyway. Most hidden mages don't live to any great age, because they're discovered first. And then killed. They do try to hide their powers, but if they are going to cast for some odd reason, they will run the risk of discovery. Of those that do live to a great age, they're still easy targets if caught unprepared. In any case, mages hiding off by themselves to learn how to cast, as Katasumata suggests, are actually the ones most affected by the problem - people don't show the respect they ought to when they find them, because OOCly they know the risk is low.

The original post of Katasumata's doesn't seem to fit Arm history at all as I understand it. I believe the gemmed have been part of Arm a long time, and, way back in time before Tuluk was wiped out, magickers were even legal there although hated. Some magickers have always been hidden, some have always been open. It's not a case of protection, but people RPing the fear for mages they ought to have.

Quirk

[Katsumata]

Quirk said:  Most hidden mages don't live to any great age, because they're discovered first. And then killed. They do try to hide their powers, but if they are going to cast for some odd reason, they will run the risk of discovery. Of those that do live to a great age, they're still easy targets if caught unprepared. In any case, mages hiding off by themselves to learn how to cast, as Katasumata suggests, are actually the ones most affected by the problem - people don't show the respect they ought to when they find them, because OOCly they know the risk is low.

So...you say most hidden mages die because they are discovered...then you say those that live to old age still die if discovered, but say it happens if they are caught unprepared. Either way they mostly die if discovered.

Perhaps I'm missing the point but aren't mage classes supposed to be hated and feared and aren't mages supposed to be hunted down and killed? One post earlier said they were concerned when one person killed their mage and they would have preferred that person to have gathered a group to slay him instead of doing it himself. I think groups slaying mages are just as possible and expected as individuals slaying them. Not every mage should die at the hands of a mob though. Do you want every person who is alone that discovers your powers to run away screaming the first time instead of attacking so you don't die? I think either option is acceptable.

I don't disagree that some people may not care as much about the RP of fearing a mage as much as the players playing a mage might. But you shouldn't depend on RP to save your character's life and you shouldn't tell other people how to RP their character when they -do- discover you. Guidelines are just that, guidelines. Some people attack when they are afraid, so should every character do that? No. Some people run away when they are afraid, should they all do that? No. You are advocating a coded solution to something that should be left to RP. If your character is afraid for his life why is he not even more careful about discovery? To him, its not a game, its real and it's life and death he is dealing with.

Now I do understand the idea that boredom might set in  because a mage that lives never sees anyone, -or- perhaps he never uses his powers and thus becomes a character that you develop your powers very very slowly, again boring to some players. But if you find such RP that boring why are you playing this role? Go find one that suits you.

Back to my original point at the top of this post. No matter how a mage lives they mostly die if discovered. If you don't want to die do your best, but chances are you -will- die and much sooner than you ever thought you might. Welcome to Armageddon.

[Rindan]

I don't see this discussion going much farther so I'll say my sepal and be done unless someone says something particularly provocative.

First, the OOC goal of a magiker in my opinion is not to travel to the farthest reaches of the world and sit in a cave spam casting all day to become powerful, nor is it for a gemmed to sit in his temple all day spam casting to become powerful.  Even if it was not horrifically boring it is simply adding nothing to the MUD.  Why bother hiding somewhere building up your skills when some boring virtual magiker can do it just as well and provide just as much interaction and entertainment.  The roles that fail most consistently in my opinion are the ones that start with "Step 1: Get really freaking powerful".  

The OOC goal of a magiker in my opinion is to perpetuate the image of a magiker and show through example how one deals with the dilemma.  You might very well do this as a hidden magiker, but if the fact that you are a freak that would be hunted down in most parts of the world does not somehow creep into your personality, I think you are missing the point of the role.  If you are a magiker, the fact that you are a magiker is probably the most important aspect to your character regardless if it is out in the open or a secret.

Second, making a magiker that can survive is not the issue.  Anyone who knows how to strap a gem around their neck can make a magiker that can survive a pretty damned long time and never once risk any sort of confrontation.  You have to go out of your way to get killed as a gemmed in the city.  Anyone who knows one of the little nooks in the MUD where there is abundant water and food can easily live for IC years and never see another harmful creature, PC or otherwise.  I can think of a few such places just off the top of my head.  Further, once you are in a safe where you can practice constantly if you want, making something powerful is just a matter of time.  Again, survivability isn't the point.

The point is that people are not able to wrap their minds around how much they should fear magikers.  It is a 'guideline' but, it is a guideline in the magnitude that an elf should not ride and a dwarf has a focus is a guideline.  It is a piece of the world that is absolutely essential to understanding the setting of the game.  In the same way you don't understand Armageddon if you don't realize that elves are not Tolken elves, you don't understand Armageddon if you don't realize why most sane humans would be utterly terrified of a magiker.  It is one of the realities of the game that is absolutely essential to understand.  

I'll be perfectly honest and say that I have played characters while not understanding this reality of the game.  I had a character that went out and actively hunted down a group of magiker raiders and half-giants ALONE.  Looking back on it now it was utterly foolish.  As cocky as my character was, he wasn't insane.  Hunting them down made perfect senses because alone I was completely able to do it.  My biggest fear was that a half-giant would subdue me before I could attack.  Other then that, I just ran around the desert looking for the chance to catch one of them not in a group and promptly beat the hell out said magiker with no fear for my own life.  I translated my OOC confidence into IC confidence.  I knew my character could do it, so I didn't stop to consider that perhaps my character wouldn't know that he could do it, or even better, that my character shouldn't be able to do it.  If my first introduction to fighting a magiker had been me attempting a bash krathi and falling on my face blinded and in tears despite having surprise, I would not have been so cocky about hunting down a group of magical raiders.

I imagine I am not the only one who has sat there and reasoned that they can kick the shit out of a magiker and so their character should be extra cocky.  In fact, I know I am not the only one has reasoned out that they can be cocky because they can kick the shit out of a magiker.  What is the fix to this?  Pure and simple, make it so that cockiness, OOC or IC, is crazy.  Jump a magiker alone and risk getting your ass handed to you.  Instead of knowing that you can take them down before they can smash an alias to cast, or better, can stop them from casting even if they can smash an alias in time, let people worry that their opening surprise attack will be utterly futile and land them in a position of disadvantage.  

Absolutely nothing would do more to instill fear of magikers then making people think that even with absolute surprise you still might fail.  If bashing a Whirian might result in you hitting nothing but air and falling on your face with a pissed and invisible magiker standing over your already winding up proper offensive and defensive spells, I think people would think long and hard about how brave they really are.

Again, the goal is NOT survivability of the magiker.  The goal is to instill proper fear of magik.  A know magiker is still easily killable.  Either get a proper lynch mob and whack them properly, or if they are gemmed get a templar to do the deed.

Finally, I just want to point to Thaloc's comments one more time.  Even if you violently disagree on reflexive magikers, I think his comments are good ones purely on the RP aspect.  These are comments I think people should take to heart.

I seriously think the best solution, for the time being anyway, is for people to play up thier fear, both in the North and South. I see alot of people posting on this thread about how they'd like to see Elementalists more feared - yet I don't see many people actually playing it up in game. Granted, I might just be missing it - but next time you're interacting with a magicker in-game pause and think to yourself: "Am I somehow playing up the fear?"

I would personally like to see less people trying to attempt to kill a mage solo. This, to me, seems like something that would be alittle Out of Character for anyone to do. This is like trying to go hunt an Elephant or a Tiger alone - typically, you don't do it. People will take loads of buddies with them to go kill Silt Horrors, Tarantulas, Carru...but when they see a mage alone in the wilderness, they just go for it and kill.

Whats the difference? I think the difference is, people are typically actually worried that a Silt Horror might end thier character. I'm not going to comment on if Mages are sufficiently powerful - the point is: all mages are feared by the populace of Zalanthas. The end. This is as important an issue to remember as is the fact that elves don't ride, and that Muls are always slaves or escaped slaves.

Nothing in the code actually prevents an elf from getting on a kank, and riding off. But they don't because people have grown to understand and RP the fact that elves just simply don't ride. Nothing in the code forces a dwarf to RP thier focus...but many do, because thats what the documentation reads, and people have grown to understand that there is this thing called a 'focus' that your dwarf is supposed to be striving towards. How is being afraid of a magicker any different? In my opinion, if you are not afraid of a magicker, you are either 1) playing a freak of some kind, or 2) not roleplaying well and following the documentation as it is laid out.

As a personal aside: I'm much more impressed with butch-ass warriors who are three-dimensional characters, who can roleplay being afraid, as well as being corageous cut-throat killers than I am with unemotional freak warriors, who don't bat an eye when they hear they have to fight a Krathi.

The documentation says you are afraid. Ergo: you should probably be afraid.

Incidentally: this does not mean: "Don't interact with magickers." This means treat magickers like you would maybe treat a mekillot that learned to talk, and walk around in Civilized society. Sure, he might be good converation at the bar - but you never know when he's going to snap, and start raging around the city destroying everything. And anything could set 'em off.

[Quirk]

Do you want every person who is alone that discovers your powers to run away screaming the first time instead of attacking so you don't die? I think either option is acceptable.

Yes, much as I'd expect to not see an elf riding a kank. If your character truly is insane and has been RPed as insane throughout his or her whole life, then it might be fitting. Launching into combat into an entity with paranormal powers of unknown limits is simply not something any sane person would do. If you in reality were informed that there was a bona fide werewolf in your neighbourhood, and presented with evidence sufficient for you to believe it (and that werewolves exist), would you blithely go out alone to find it, unsure of what a werewolf might be capable of or what it might take to kill one?

I don't disagree that some people may not care as much about the RP of fearing a mage as much as the players playing a mage might. But you shouldn't depend on RP to save your character's life and you shouldn't tell other people how to RP their character when they -do- discover you.

I think you're strongly supporting the argument of this thread here. If people cannot be depended on to RP such a basic tenet of Arm life, then having an OOC reason to persuade them into reasonable IC behaviour would seem not unwise.

Quirk

[ShaLeah]

I think you're strongly supporting the argument of this thread here. If people cannot be depended on to RP such a basic tenet of Arm life, then having an OOC reason to persuade them into reasonable IC behaviour would seem not unwise.

Quirk

[/i][/b]
Well said.

[witchman]

I'm thinking one of the main reasons why this thread has grown to seven pages is because ShaLeah's signature is so darn big.  ;-)

[ShaLeah]

I'm thinking one of the main reasons why this thread has grown to seven pages is because ShaLeah's signature is so darn big.  ;-)

I'm not one of those women who lie and say:

Size doesn't matter.

Cause it does.  

[desert wanderer guy]

Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  

I'm trying to imagine and I just don't see it.

I personally think it might put them into shock, since I doubt they are use to weapons flying at their face.

To sum it up I totally disagree.

Sure, they might simply just stand their stupidly as someone goes to skew them.  They might flash into air for a few seconds then flash back without ever moving.  The point isn't that it would be something controlled.  They wouldn't think "Oh shit, a sword is about to impale me!  Quick, I better turn into air!"  If I were to try and punch you in the face you wouldn't think "Oh shit, I better put my arms up in front of my face, close my eyes, and turn my head to deflect the blow."  Even a total coward will generally cover themselves on pure reflex if they are about to be harmed.  It isn't something you think about, it is just something you do.  I am suggesting that someone in tune with the elements would have a similar reflex.  It isn't planned.  It isn't thought about.  It is like blinking before something hits your eye.  

How you react to such an attack of course is up you and how your character is played.  A powerful Krathi might reflexively defend himself from the initial attack then proceed to burn his attackers alive in rage.  A Whirian might perform her defense and have their next move be vanishing or running away.  A Vivaduan might be so shocked at being assaulted that he just stands there.  His defense stops the first few attacks, but instead of doing something useful like running or defending, he just sits there and is eventually skewered.

The idea is to at least give elementalists a fighting chance and make attacking one far riskier, or in the very least cause people to put a little planning and forethought before trying to kill someone with such awesome powers.  If nothing else, it would make the killing of an elementalist far more spectacular.

hahaha! rindan wrote what Ueda wrote what rindan wrote! hahaha!