Reflexive Magik

[Dan]

I believe you are mistaken Ueda.

[Quirk]

Flip the situation K, a 15 day warrior is in a room right and a 10 day mage comes in and does a spell the first think K. Who won the fight?

The mage because of a code advantage

How many magickers have you played? I've played a couple who passed 10 days, and more who were pretty close to it on their demise. All of those were mages with combat-oriented magick from the word go. All of them would have died easily to a 15-day warrior even given the first cast.

Even assuming you've branched Uber Flaming Fist of Death, which I never have had the luck to at 10 days, a casting failure can still see you die very fast. Unarmed, against a skilled warrior, two rounds is all that's needed to kill you. Seriously. Even if you're clad in semi-decent armour. In the long run, the odds that the mage who takes first strike will win do increase dramatically, but for most people killing an unprepared mage is like killing a merchant.

The ideal solution would be to get everyone to RP it out nicely, but I do think that making an attack on a mage a much riskier proposition would speed up the move to correct RP vastly.

Quirk

[Quirk]

Thought I'd share my thoughts on the possible suggestions made by Rindan and the exploding magicker thread.

The reflexive spell is more or less all gain for a gemmer, but for an ungemmed mage could be a serious disadvantage in some situations. It also subtly changes the dynamics of the control your mage has over magick. I played a magicker a year ago or more who lived in Tuluk at a time when the city was under attack. Like every other red-blooded Tuluki he took up his weapons and defended the city. Like many other Tulukis he got injured in battle. Had he had a reflexive response he couldn't prevent, he would have been spotted as a magicker and turned on by his own side. The reflexive response is not necessarily purely an advantage, especially if you're hiding your magicker nature. However, in that it would help the magicker survive the initial confrontation and set them up to be hunted down once people knew them for a magicker, it would fulfill the RP goals very well.

The curse for the killer of a magicker is interesting as well. The magicker would not gain anything in power or in combat from such a curse, yet the motivation to go kill a magicker alone when it's certain you'd suffer from the curse would diminish. The end result is probably more that people would knock them unconscious, and then drag them subdued to the templarate or leave them in the wilds for some beast to find. I'm not sure how much it would diminish the solo hunting of magickers, but it would certainly add a new level of RP and fear around the proceedings.

Allowing magickers to cast while holding a weapon could well prove rather unbalancing later on, I think, but I could be wrong. It would probably ensure that even an unprepared magicker faced with a newbie ranger or assassin would get a spell or two off, and... and that might be a good thing, because it would encourage people to hunt magickers in groups. I'll have to think more on that. It would make magickers much more dangerous from the start however, and given their long-term progress toward awesome power that could be a Bad Thing for balance.

Quirk

[Gorobei]

Perhaps spells could be changed a bit to imitate ride.  The better you are at it, the more stuff you can have in your hands as you're casting.  That way, you couldn't throw down the scary spells without leaving yourself vulnerable, but it would also give magickers a bit more defense.

[X-D]

First, even without the skill, a magicker being able to hold a weapon while casting is simply too much, I know I have said it before, but I cannot stress it enough.

Possibly a shield would not unbalance things too much, specialy if the code was tweeked a bit so that just using a shield was not the same as being unarmed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Using a shield is not the same as being disarmed. Trust me.

[Anonymous]

First, even without the skill, a magicker being able to hold a weapon while casting is simply too much, I know I have said it before, but I cannot stress it enough.

I don't see it, personally.  I believe you gave an account of some things you did about 10 years ago.  I don't doubt that, but maybe things have changed, because even with a weapon my magickers have gotten their asses handed to them.  By unarmed fighters.  Human ones.  I'm talking knocked the fuck out.

Possibly a shield would not unbalance things too much, specialy if the code was tweeked a bit so that just using a shield was not the same as being unarmed.

That was changed several months ago by Nessalin.  Thankfully.

[Rindan]

I personally don't want to see magikers with the ability to wield and cast at the same time.  The point is that they control the unearthly powers of the world.  I don't really want to see them cower in the corner if suddenly they don't have a weapon.  Further, a weapon really would not change much.  I would still merrily kill any magiker I can get my hands on with a warrior using the exact same method, and believe me, the weapon will have no effect.  Magikers have their own set of very powerful weapons.  When not being jumped, I think things are the way they should be.  Direct conflict is not a terribly good idea for most, but given first strike a relatively experienced mage should do just fine.  The fact that you can always drop a line to the account suggesting some magical first strike that is more subtle then appearing out of thin air and casting flaming ball of death (not that flaming ball of death is bad) is just a bonus.  

The real issue in my mind is that they are rightly perceived as weak if they are not the ones on the offensive.  It also makes dealing with any magiker troubles very easy.  Just assault the offending magiker as soon as possible when he is not fully spelled up and ready to go.  I simply suggest that the formula for killing a magiker be made, well, less formulaic.  If you really fear for your life enough to want to try and kill one, you would be wise to get some friends because you don't know that when you try and make your first bash that you simply want go right through the startled whirian and a few seconds later be on the receiving end of his wrath.  You might still try and make the kill, put a wise person would probably have a few friends to pull your ass out of the fire.

Finally, as others have pointed out it is not all a can of roses.  An ungemmed magiker that is startled might do something foolish.  In many parts of the world this is instance death.  Even if places where it is not instance death it is at least instant intrigue because now they have to figure out what to do with you.  Imagine if you were a merchant for some house your entire life, then one day drunk mercenary goes to hit you and his fist meets flesh turned into stone.  Discovery of your abilities would become purely natural.  It could make it so that that first discovery is not in your hands, adding to the excitement and danger.

[Quirk]

I don't see it, personally.  I believe you gave an account of some things you did about 10 years ago.  I don't doubt that, but maybe things have changed, because even with a weapon my magickers have gotten their asses handed to them.  By unarmed fighters.  Human ones.  I'm talking knocked the fuck out.

Heh, there's a distinct skill factor difference here. An armed 6-day warrior of mine sparred a certain legendary warrior mul who used only his bare hands. My 6-day warrior didn't last very long. Most magickers are seriously unskilled in combat, and similar skill differences apply.

A certain Tuluki magicker of mine I mentioned earlier however grew to perhaps newbie ranger level in ability, though, from helping out occasionally in hunting parties, and was capable of hunting and killing gurth and similar foes; he lasted rather well even facing a halfling. Had he branched Uber Flaming Fist of Death or something similar and could cast while armed, he would have been somewhat unfairly advantaged against the vast majority of foes.

To just take the other side of the discussion for the moment, as it seems to have been under-represented, a reasonably old magicker may be able to survive quite nicely in the wilds, keeping prepared at all times, or find some niche in a populated area where a similar thing is possible.  Attacking a prepared magicker can be a very very different proposition than attacking an unprepared one, especially an advanced magicker. Few magickers live to grow old, though. Hence as most magickers are easily killed people begin to believe all magickers are easily killed, and will hunt them alone.

The paradox is that the newbie magicker is ill-equipped to survive without the support network of a city, but the longer he or she remains there the more likely they are to be discovered and killed - and the necessity of city life forces them to be unprepared lest a templar should spot them. I would wager few of the truly powerful magickers are ever hunted, as they have likely moved out of the areas where they risk being discovered as soon as they grew powerful enough.

Quirk

[Sakra]

Looks like everyone else has posted, so why not me?

I think magickers should have the reflex spell/ability, it doesn't give them an edge, it just adds to the mystery surrounding them, and will help instill some fear of the unknown. Also, when your best friend suddenly turns to stone, RP ensues. I was wondering how my next magicker is going to discover his powers, and this sounds like a great way.

Newbie magickers -truly- suck. I'll give you an example. Two new magickers (I'm talking under an hour here) are fighting a bamuk. Both are as spelled as new magickers can be, one has weapons out to tank, and the other casts spells. After said bamuk hands the first magickers ass to him, they switch, with the unhurt one taking over with weapons, while the other tries to cast. The bamuk won! :oops:  We didn't die, but we were both badly hurt. C'mon, a bamuk? That's like those newbie rangers that get beat up by tregils, and we all laugh at.

I don't know about wielding and casting at the same time, sounds like it could tip the balance. Magickers do need something though, they have to be unarmed to cast, and against -anything- other than a merchant, they die in a few rounds. I had a semi-powerful spelled up mage once try and take someone down once. I died in 3 hits. I wasn't a combat mage, but still.

[Katsumata]

The real question is why this is an issue at all. For years mages didn't have a pressing need for this sort of thing. I submit its because now people are playing mages out in the open, in the cities, amongst large groups of people that they now want this protection, or some sort of protection anyways.

If you don't wish to die to joe newbie who followed you out of a tavern because he fears you and wants you dead, go and hide like every other "sane" magik wielding person has in the past.

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? Why should the code be changed because of your decision? Go and hide in the deepest hole you can find and come out later once you can handle public life.

[Rindan]

There is no great influx of open mages that I have seen.  I have been in Allanak for the past few months and see only a handful of gemmed.  Of those gemmed only two that have stuck around for longer then a month and played consistently.  As to why it is coming up now, it has always been an issue and has always been discussed.  The fear of magikers is one of those basic principles that the MUD is built upon and is what sets it apart from traditional AD&D games.  The idea itself is new (as far as I know), but the talking discussion of fear of magikers is something that has been steadily growing.  

There are two primary reasons for this growing of discussion of fear of magikers.  First, ICly the world has become more hostile to them over the years.  For various reasons (namely the destruction of Tuluk) people have ICly simply become more paranoid.  Unfortunately, PC opinion has not kept up.  PCs are generally far less afraid then should be.  Tlaloc's put it best in his post (page 4 of this thread), which I suggest you take a peek at if have not already.  Second, the MUD is simply becoming better.  There is and has been a steady drive to bring the world in line with the harshness which it is supposed to represent.  The RP is tighter and the world is more brutal.  The thirst code change and the harshening of the desert are two examples of this.  This suggestion is very similar to increasing the thirst rates.  The idea is to instill and appreciation for a certain part of Zalanthas' unique atmosphere.  The thirst code makes you appreciate water, reflexive magik make you appropriate have more fear of magik.

The idea is not meant to make a mages life any easier.  In fact, having your hidden magiker suddenly turn into water because a Byn punched you would make it harder.  The idea is to instill the proper fear of magikers and make it so that a lone Byner doesn't get it in his head that is a good idea to go magiker hunting alone.  The change won't make mages all powerful.  It just might mean that you think a little harder before trying to kill one and bring a friend or two.

[Ueda]

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? .

You took the words right out of my mouth I swear!

[Malifaxis]

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? Why should the code be changed because of your decision? Go and hide in the deepest hole you can find and come out later once you can handle public life.

Because perhaps, just PERHAPS, there are people that wish to:

A:  Play a magicker
B:  Not get jumped by Joe Fucking Bynner and instadie
C:  Fucking interract with other people.

If you're getting the idea that I'm a little bit bloody irritated at this point, well gee, I guess you're right.

Oh yeah, and there's also the fact that even if you go hide in a fucking hole and spam cast your shit to crank your skills while still having a minimal possibility of... oh what's that called again... STARVING TO FUCKING DEATH... then there's a few other things:

A:  You're spam casting and twinking
B:  You have no fun because you have no one to interract with
C:  YOU STILL GET FUCKING SLAUGHTERED IF JOE BYNNER CATCHES YOU.

If you don't wish to die to joe newbie who followed you out of a tavern because he fears you and wants you dead, go and hide like every other "sane" magik wielding person has in the past.

The sheer and simple fact of the matter is that shit like this SHOULD NOT FUCKING HAPPEN.  That damn newbie, if they have read the docs enough to know to be afraid of bloody magickers, should be too afraid because of the horror stories he has heard IC to come within five damn rooms of you.

The reason no one fears magickers is because THERE IS NO REASON TO FEAR MAGICKERS.  Reflexive magick is an EXCELLENT way to increase the fear, because you never f'ing know what the hell is going to happen if you attack one.

Right now, the fear level stands at this:
"Oh, it's a Krathi... some of my eq might pick up that nifty 'burned' status"

That's so bullshit.  It should be around the level of:
"Oh, it's a Krathi... if I spill my drink on him I'll suffer a thousand kings ages of burning torture."

[Ueda]

Oh yeah, and there's also the fact that even if you go hide in a fucking hole and spam cast your shit to crank your skills while still having a minimal possibility of... oh what's that called again... STARVING TO FUCKING DEATH... then there's a few other things:

A:  You're spam casting and twinking
B:  You have no fun because you have no one to interract with
C:  YOU STILL GET FUCKING SLAUGHTERED IF JOE BYNNER CATCHES YOU.

I think you got the wrong idea about what I said. I think that people should be a BIT more carefull about who they let know there a magiker.

[Anonymous]

I know that magickers can become pretty powerful, especially certain magicker guilds.  So powerful that some of them can go whop-bam-boom and insta-kill people through some different tactics.

So in the end I'd rather not see changes made to the magicker class.  Holding/wielding, special reflex abilities, what have you.

What bothers me is this.  There's a PC who is able through magickal abilities to not always be easily noticed.  Someone easily notices them.  Their response?  kill magicker.

Its the very rarest of warrior-type (not necessarily guild but just stereotypical tough-guy) who when talking about magickers to my many PCs didn't end up saying something to the effect of 'they bleed just like you or I' and would just attack without question.

And that's the sad part to me.  I believe most people on Zalanthas would view attacking something so capable of doing the uknown as suicidal.  If you survive, how do you know that you've killed the magicker?  That it won't come back to live the next time neither moon is in the sky?  That it wasn't a mirage that you thought you killed?

Instead most PCs I've met are coming from a 0hp = dead PC regardless of giuld standpoint.

Just once I'd like to see the buff warrior run back to town, round up a posse hunt the magicking bastard down and do him in but good and proper like.  Maybe going through some sort of ritual one of them knows will kill it forever because his father's mother was told a story about how if you fill the skull with salt and toss it into the silt sea it will just come back to life then die again over and over, unable to move.  Or maybe you have to scatter the body parts so that they cannot find each other.

Something more than the pervasive attitude of me buff warrior, me no fear puny magicks, RAAARRRRGH, SMASH!

I'm not saying the warrior has to die, just act more scared than he would if attacked by a gortok, tembo or some other predator lacking in otherworldly powers.

[Quirk]

People only rarely came across a mage and if they did it was usually once the mage had a measure of power and should be feared. Didn't you realize any public recognition of your powers would be "a bad thing"? .

You took the words right out of my mouth I swear!

Inaccurate words, anyway. Most hidden mages don't live to any great age, because they're discovered first. And then killed. They do try to hide their powers, but if they are going to cast for some odd reason, they will run the risk of discovery. Of those that do live to a great age, they're still easy targets if caught unprepared. In any case, mages hiding off by themselves to learn how to cast, as Katasumata suggests, are actually the ones most affected by the problem - people don't show the respect they ought to when they find them, because OOCly they know the risk is low.

The original post of Katasumata's doesn't seem to fit Arm history at all as I understand it. I believe the gemmed have been part of Arm a long time, and, way back in time before Tuluk was wiped out, magickers were even legal there although hated. Some magickers have always been hidden, some have always been open. It's not a case of protection, but people RPing the fear for mages they ought to have.

Quirk

[Katsumata]

Quirk said:  Most hidden mages don't live to any great age, because they're discovered first. And then killed. They do try to hide their powers, but if they are going to cast for some odd reason, they will run the risk of discovery. Of those that do live to a great age, they're still easy targets if caught unprepared. In any case, mages hiding off by themselves to learn how to cast, as Katasumata suggests, are actually the ones most affected by the problem - people don't show the respect they ought to when they find them, because OOCly they know the risk is low.

So...you say most hidden mages die because they are discovered...then you say those that live to old age still die if discovered, but say it happens if they are caught unprepared. Either way they mostly die if discovered.

Perhaps I'm missing the point but aren't mage classes supposed to be hated and feared and aren't mages supposed to be hunted down and killed? One post earlier said they were concerned when one person killed their mage and they would have preferred that person to have gathered a group to slay him instead of doing it himself. I think groups slaying mages are just as possible and expected as individuals slaying them. Not every mage should die at the hands of a mob though. Do you want every person who is alone that discovers your powers to run away screaming the first time instead of attacking so you don't die? I think either option is acceptable.

I don't disagree that some people may not care as much about the RP of fearing a mage as much as the players playing a mage might. But you shouldn't depend on RP to save your character's life and you shouldn't tell other people how to RP their character when they -do- discover you. Guidelines are just that, guidelines. Some people attack when they are afraid, so should every character do that? No. Some people run away when they are afraid, should they all do that? No. You are advocating a coded solution to something that should be left to RP. If your character is afraid for his life why is he not even more careful about discovery? To him, its not a game, its real and it's life and death he is dealing with.

Now I do understand the idea that boredom might set in  because a mage that lives never sees anyone, -or- perhaps he never uses his powers and thus becomes a character that you develop your powers very very slowly, again boring to some players. But if you find such RP that boring why are you playing this role? Go find one that suits you.

Back to my original point at the top of this post. No matter how a mage lives they mostly die if discovered. If you don't want to die do your best, but chances are you -will- die and much sooner than you ever thought you might. Welcome to Armageddon.

[Rindan]

I don't see this discussion going much farther so I'll say my sepal and be done unless someone says something particularly provocative.

First, the OOC goal of a magiker in my opinion is not to travel to the farthest reaches of the world and sit in a cave spam casting all day to become powerful, nor is it for a gemmed to sit in his temple all day spam casting to become powerful.  Even if it was not horrifically boring it is simply adding nothing to the MUD.  Why bother hiding somewhere building up your skills when some boring virtual magiker can do it just as well and provide just as much interaction and entertainment.  The roles that fail most consistently in my opinion are the ones that start with "Step 1: Get really freaking powerful".  

The OOC goal of a magiker in my opinion is to perpetuate the image of a magiker and show through example how one deals with the dilemma.  You might very well do this as a hidden magiker, but if the fact that you are a freak that would be hunted down in most parts of the world does not somehow creep into your personality, I think you are missing the point of the role.  If you are a magiker, the fact that you are a magiker is probably the most important aspect to your character regardless if it is out in the open or a secret.

Second, making a magiker that can survive is not the issue.  Anyone who knows how to strap a gem around their neck can make a magiker that can survive a pretty damned long time and never once risk any sort of confrontation.  You have to go out of your way to get killed as a gemmed in the city.  Anyone who knows one of the little nooks in the MUD where there is abundant water and food can easily live for IC years and never see another harmful creature, PC or otherwise.  I can think of a few such places just off the top of my head.  Further, once you are in a safe where you can practice constantly if you want, making something powerful is just a matter of time.  Again, survivability isn't the point.

The point is that people are not able to wrap their minds around how much they should fear magikers.  It is a 'guideline' but, it is a guideline in the magnitude that an elf should not ride and a dwarf has a focus is a guideline.  It is a piece of the world that is absolutely essential to understanding the setting of the game.  In the same way you don't understand Armageddon if you don't realize that elves are not Tolken elves, you don't understand Armageddon if you don't realize why most sane humans would be utterly terrified of a magiker.  It is one of the realities of the game that is absolutely essential to understand.  

I'll be perfectly honest and say that I have played characters while not understanding this reality of the game.  I had a character that went out and actively hunted down a group of magiker raiders and half-giants ALONE.  Looking back on it now it was utterly foolish.  As cocky as my character was, he wasn't insane.  Hunting them down made perfect senses because alone I was completely able to do it.  My biggest fear was that a half-giant would subdue me before I could attack.  Other then that, I just ran around the desert looking for the chance to catch one of them not in a group and promptly beat the hell out said magiker with no fear for my own life.  I translated my OOC confidence into IC confidence.  I knew my character could do it, so I didn't stop to consider that perhaps my character wouldn't know that he could do it, or even better, that my character shouldn't be able to do it.  If my first introduction to fighting a magiker had been me attempting a bash krathi and falling on my face blinded and in tears despite having surprise, I would not have been so cocky about hunting down a group of magical raiders.

I imagine I am not the only one who has sat there and reasoned that they can kick the shit out of a magiker and so their character should be extra cocky.  In fact, I know I am not the only one has reasoned out that they can be cocky because they can kick the shit out of a magiker.  What is the fix to this?  Pure and simple, make it so that cockiness, OOC or IC, is crazy.  Jump a magiker alone and risk getting your ass handed to you.  Instead of knowing that you can take them down before they can smash an alias to cast, or better, can stop them from casting even if they can smash an alias in time, let people worry that their opening surprise attack will be utterly futile and land them in a position of disadvantage.  

Absolutely nothing would do more to instill fear of magikers then making people think that even with absolute surprise you still might fail.  If bashing a Whirian might result in you hitting nothing but air and falling on your face with a pissed and invisible magiker standing over your already winding up proper offensive and defensive spells, I think people would think long and hard about how brave they really are.

Again, the goal is NOT survivability of the magiker.  The goal is to instill proper fear of magik.  A know magiker is still easily killable.  Either get a proper lynch mob and whack them properly, or if they are gemmed get a templar to do the deed.

Finally, I just want to point to Thaloc's comments one more time.  Even if you violently disagree on reflexive magikers, I think his comments are good ones purely on the RP aspect.  These are comments I think people should take to heart.

I seriously think the best solution, for the time being anyway, is for people to play up thier fear, both in the North and South. I see alot of people posting on this thread about how they'd like to see Elementalists more feared - yet I don't see many people actually playing it up in game. Granted, I might just be missing it - but next time you're interacting with a magicker in-game pause and think to yourself: "Am I somehow playing up the fear?"

I would personally like to see less people trying to attempt to kill a mage solo. This, to me, seems like something that would be alittle Out of Character for anyone to do. This is like trying to go hunt an Elephant or a Tiger alone - typically, you don't do it. People will take loads of buddies with them to go kill Silt Horrors, Tarantulas, Carru...but when they see a mage alone in the wilderness, they just go for it and kill.

Whats the difference? I think the difference is, people are typically actually worried that a Silt Horror might end thier character. I'm not going to comment on if Mages are sufficiently powerful - the point is: all mages are feared by the populace of Zalanthas. The end. This is as important an issue to remember as is the fact that elves don't ride, and that Muls are always slaves or escaped slaves.

Nothing in the code actually prevents an elf from getting on a kank, and riding off. But they don't because people have grown to understand and RP the fact that elves just simply don't ride. Nothing in the code forces a dwarf to RP thier focus...but many do, because thats what the documentation reads, and people have grown to understand that there is this thing called a 'focus' that your dwarf is supposed to be striving towards. How is being afraid of a magicker any different? In my opinion, if you are not afraid of a magicker, you are either 1) playing a freak of some kind, or 2) not roleplaying well and following the documentation as it is laid out.

As a personal aside: I'm much more impressed with butch-ass warriors who are three-dimensional characters, who can roleplay being afraid, as well as being corageous cut-throat killers than I am with unemotional freak warriors, who don't bat an eye when they hear they have to fight a Krathi.

The documentation says you are afraid. Ergo: you should probably be afraid.

Incidentally: this does not mean: "Don't interact with magickers." This means treat magickers like you would maybe treat a mekillot that learned to talk, and walk around in Civilized society. Sure, he might be good converation at the bar - but you never know when he's going to snap, and start raging around the city destroying everything. And anything could set 'em off.

[Quirk]

Do you want every person who is alone that discovers your powers to run away screaming the first time instead of attacking so you don't die? I think either option is acceptable.

Yes, much as I'd expect to not see an elf riding a kank. If your character truly is insane and has been RPed as insane throughout his or her whole life, then it might be fitting. Launching into combat into an entity with paranormal powers of unknown limits is simply not something any sane person would do. If you in reality were informed that there was a bona fide werewolf in your neighbourhood, and presented with evidence sufficient for you to believe it (and that werewolves exist), would you blithely go out alone to find it, unsure of what a werewolf might be capable of or what it might take to kill one?

I don't disagree that some people may not care as much about the RP of fearing a mage as much as the players playing a mage might. But you shouldn't depend on RP to save your character's life and you shouldn't tell other people how to RP their character when they -do- discover you.

I think you're strongly supporting the argument of this thread here. If people cannot be depended on to RP such a basic tenet of Arm life, then having an OOC reason to persuade them into reasonable IC behaviour would seem not unwise.

Quirk

[ShaLeah]

I think you're strongly supporting the argument of this thread here. If people cannot be depended on to RP such a basic tenet of Arm life, then having an OOC reason to persuade them into reasonable IC behaviour would seem not unwise.

Quirk

[/i][/b]
Well said.

[witchman]

I'm thinking one of the main reasons why this thread has grown to seven pages is because ShaLeah's signature is so darn big.  ;-)

[ShaLeah]

I'm thinking one of the main reasons why this thread has grown to seven pages is because ShaLeah's signature is so darn big.  ;-)

I'm not one of those women who lie and say:

Size doesn't matter.

Cause it does.  

[desert wanderer guy]

Imagine if the whirian reflexively turned to air.  

I'm trying to imagine and I just don't see it.

I personally think it might put them into shock, since I doubt they are use to weapons flying at their face.

To sum it up I totally disagree.

Sure, they might simply just stand their stupidly as someone goes to skew them.  They might flash into air for a few seconds then flash back without ever moving.  The point isn't that it would be something controlled.  They wouldn't think "Oh shit, a sword is about to impale me!  Quick, I better turn into air!"  If I were to try and punch you in the face you wouldn't think "Oh shit, I better put my arms up in front of my face, close my eyes, and turn my head to deflect the blow."  Even a total coward will generally cover themselves on pure reflex if they are about to be harmed.  It isn't something you think about, it is just something you do.  I am suggesting that someone in tune with the elements would have a similar reflex.  It isn't planned.  It isn't thought about.  It is like blinking before something hits your eye.  

How you react to such an attack of course is up you and how your character is played.  A powerful Krathi might reflexively defend himself from the initial attack then proceed to burn his attackers alive in rage.  A Whirian might perform her defense and have their next move be vanishing or running away.  A Vivaduan might be so shocked at being assaulted that he just stands there.  His defense stops the first few attacks, but instead of doing something useful like running or defending, he just sits there and is eventually skewered.

The idea is to at least give elementalists a fighting chance and make attacking one far riskier, or in the very least cause people to put a little planning and forethought before trying to kill someone with such awesome powers.  If nothing else, it would make the killing of an elementalist far more spectacular.

hahaha! rindan wrote what Ueda wrote what rindan wrote! hahaha!