Discussion thread for proposed karma changes.

[Bogre]

Going to say that I think 30 days flat per karma point is reasonable. Don't prevent people from playing what they want, I can't imagine that to end well. Personally, I make chars based on roles, so this is more likely going to cause people to make more throwaways or just stop playing until their karma points retick. Something that encourages storage or encourages exceedingly cautious play isn't a good thing.

Also - are people currently with Karma 5 thus losing two options - Whira Travel and Krathi Agony? 

I think that a hard cap on sorcs will, as Fathi says, lead to a lot of meta game knowledge. If you've bumped into 2 characters who are sorcerors, boom, there you go, you don't have to worry about that any longer. If you run into a sorceror again, boom - probably one of those two characters.

Mostly, I feel that I keep losing out by not having ever applied these roles in the past. Elkros, Nilaz...gone, now sorcerors/psions gated. What happens if I make an enchantment sorceror and figure out I'd rather have made a war sorc or something? Will I then be waiting 2, 3 or more years to play another one?

[Harmless]

The time nerf would be a lot easier to deal with if the karma required magickal subguilds were more explicitly described in their helpfiles such as for what spells and abilities are granted.

[Fathi]

After thinking it over some, I agree with Bogre above and others that I feel like the karma regeneration rate seems punitive toward people who might roll up a PC and just discover they don't like it.

Sometimes you roll up a character and for whatever reason, it doesn't click. Almost every PC I have that I put more than 5 days of playtime into has lived to like 60+ and multiple RL years, but there are little short lived quickly stored characters in between those because I just found I didn't enjoy playing them. Sometimes it's because a concept sounds better in your head than it plays out ingame. Sometimes it's because you find out your guild/subguild combination doesn't quite do what you thought it did. Sometimes it's because you get a different idea and just feel like playing something else.

Every time I've gotten stuck in a role I don't enjoy that much, staff and players alike have said it's no big deal to just store and reroll. Except now in some instances it would be.

The last time I quick-stored a PC, it was a Ranger/Whiran because I thought I'd give one of the new subguild Whirans a go. I then realised shortly into playing him that I was just not interested in playing another ranger, having played a shitload of them. I stored him and apped a mundane assassin PC with a mundane extended subguild.

Under the new system I wouldn't be able to do that. But who exactly is it hurting? Is it really that much of a balance issue?

Sometimes you roll a high-karma PC and discover it's not that fun for whatever reason and want to try something else out. I don't feel like players should be punished for not having fun in a role and wanting to move on to something else.

I suppose you can argue that people should put more thought and care into their concepts rather than just flinging high-karma characters out into the world, but sometimes the chips just don't fall where you hoped they would and a character doesn't end up as fun as it sounded in your head. The idea of having to wait 6 months to get my karma back because I tried out a PC and didn't like it seems pretty harsh.

A flat 30 day wait per point would be a lot more sensible imo. Then if you wanted to move on from playing a Whiran to an Apothecary like I did--two very different roles, one of which is totally mundane and not game breaking at all--you wouldn't have to wait three months.

Most of the time this system wouldn't have any effect on me since my characters live for quite a while, but I am concerned that the long regen times could lead to a lot of player frustration for situations like the one I outlined above.

Yeah you can just say "so if you wanna play that concept so bad and you haven't waited 90 days, play it as a subguild Physician" but you know what? I think this is a game we play for fun and players should be allowed to play what they enjoy. If having a slightly different mundane skillset that they've earned the karma to play is the thing they want to play, a three month wait seems extreme.

[Decadent Decisions]

Going on some of what Fathi said above, I just think the massive wait times are going to encourage people to not bother investing in their codedly much weaker characters (which can end up lasting for a while, or meeting great people) only to regret not having waited the time later. Then they'll try to wait the time. Then RL will snatch you, and you may never come back to the game. This has happened to me once, even. With these proposed wait times, I'd probably have never come back, whether by intention or accident. Getting back immediately into the game with hope as to being great or interesting again, is often the only thing that lets me move on past some of my super involved, much adored (OOC at least, if kudos are any judge) characters.

[Lizzie]

I'm waiting to see what the new guild rollout will look like before insisting that the wait time for karma regen is too long. I "think" it's too long, but I'm not married to that opinion yet.

For all we know, the new 0-karma options will have enough variety and "fun" in them that it won't matter that you have to wait 30 days to play something more karma-restrictive.

For now, I'm pessimistically hopeful, or optimistically doubtful. Erring on the side of "I think it's probably too much time to have to wait."

[whitt]

That said. I never choose 0 karma subguils so thisb would fix that.

John, wouldn't this only fix that if your characters couldn't survive long enough to regen a point of karma?

[John]

That said. I never choose 0 karma subguils so thisb would fix that.

John, wouldn't this only fix that if your characters couldn't survive long enough to regen a point of karma?

Correct. However I am in the boat of "characters typically don't last 6 real life months" so I would be affected by it. Now anyone who can easily have characters survive 6 months, and going off what Fathi said: Such players (if not enjoying their current character) will be incentivised to just continue playing the same character they're not liking (and thus likely log in less and be more likely to take a break) or they'll just take a break for 6 months.

I don't like systems that encourage people to not play. However there is no way to have a limitation on karma options and not have people be less likely to play. How much of an impact this will have on people taking breaks from the game is unknown and cannot be known until it gets trialled.

[whitt]

Gotcha.  If the flat 30-day per point option isn't an option.  Would it be less disruptive if they flipped the scale?

1st point back in 30 days
2nd point back  60 days after the first
3rd point back 90 days after the second

Low(er) karma point players wait less long to have some karma back, higher karma roles take the same (long) amount of time to regen.

[Delirium]

I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

[Nathvaan]

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

[Armaddict]

I kinda like Whitt's idea of swapping them around, in the case that it 'needs' to be changed from its current form.

But out of my last several characters, the longest lived and most prolific were all...not extended subguilds...so from my personal perception, they're being given a little too much weight, to where people seem to be saying they refuse to play one without extended subs.  That is just my perception, from the responses.

Edit:  Ah.  Nathvaan does goods.

[mansa]

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

All seem reasonable.

[Fathi]

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

I really like these suggested changes. They would mitigate a lot of my concerns.

I will ask though - is there a reason why a flat amount of time per point seems to be something staff isn't interested in? I am merely curious because that seems like such a simpler solution.

Edited to say: I hope my tone didn't come off as NATHVAAN, JUSTIFY YOURSELF TO ME. I changed the wording of my post a little. Basically I was just wondering rather like Tisiphone mentioned if it might be best to start these changes off super simple and then adjust as necessary.

[Decadent Decisions]

I think it's a move in the right direction, those updated times. I still think it's too much though. Four months to play your 3 karma role that you've earned is still a lot of time. Honestly, how many 6 karma people were just consistently rerolling that level of character that staff felt the need to push it this hard out? Again, it feels like blanket solutions to individual player problems.

Even ignoring the amazing side of the game that is those higher end roles, a month between extended subguilds is harsh.

Just weighing in, it's a move in the right direction, but not what I think would be ideal. Part of the problem I think with such a massive time wait is how there's only 3 points of karma. It's why in my original post, I suggested five. So that you could basically have various lower options with a set (faster) regen rate.

If your regen rate was 2 weeks a point, and you had five points, you'd see 2.5 months for the max karma, and as little as 2 weeks between extended subguilds (if yours just happened to get scrabbed right out of the gate...pun intended).

[Gunnerblaster]

Fathi mentioned earlier about storing characters that she's just not feeling very invested in. Perhaps some sort of partial karma point "refund" for characters that are stored; halved but rounded up (1/2 karma roles would refund 1 karma, 3 karma roles would refund 2)?

But, with the adjustment to the time frame for karma regenerating at 30 days, 45 and 45 - I could get on board for that.

[Fathi]

I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

This is pretty much my ideal system too although I'm fine with nipping off #4 for sorc/psion and leaving them special app only.

[Insigne]

I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

This is pretty much my ideal system too although I'm fine with nipping off #4 for sorc/psion and leaving them special app only.

+1.

The suggested modifications all seem reasonable. Like Fathi, though, I'm also curious why a flat-rate might be out of the question?

[azuriolinist]

I feel like one solution could be to have four points instead of three:

1 - mundane extended subguild roles
2 - lower tier mage roles
3 - upper tier mage roles
4 - sorc/psion

Flat regen rate of 30 days per karma point. That way 1 karma players aren't rerolling a magicker every month, but they also don't have to wait more than a month to roll up another extended subguild concept.

This is pretty much my ideal system too although I'm fine with nipping off #4 for sorc/psion and leaving them special app only.

This, but I also think that touched should remain at 1 karma.

Do the rest of the extended subguilds really have to be at the second karma level? I'm not so sure they unbalance the game world.

I think it's a move in the right direction, those updated times. I still think it's too much though. Four months to play your 3 karma role that you've earned is still a lot of time. Honestly, how many 6 karma people were just consistently rerolling that level of character that staff felt the need to push it this hard out? Again, it feels like blanket solutions to individual player problems.

Eh, I don't know. I feel that four months is pretty fair for roles that high in the karma scale, considering that the goal is for "3 karma to be the norm". When/if that works out, then the wait combats the chance of a massive surge of apps for high-karma roles. There are a ton of choices in the lower to 0-karma range, too, that people (including me, admittedly) begin to overlook as they gain karma. I don't see how four months should be a problem.

Otherwise, the modifications look great!

[Nathvaan]

I will ask though - is there a reason why a flat amount of time per point seems to be something staff isn't interested in? I am merely curious because that seems like such a simpler solution.

I'll try and explain as I understand it.  The idea is that 3 karma will be norm, not the exception, in a moderate period of time.  This being said, the thought it that a non-linear progression (previously logarithmic growth) would put the correct amount of, I'll call it 'downward pressure' to try and limit the number of higher karma roles while having lower karma options a little more prevalent. This new possibility is a good deal more of a linear progression (which is what you are suggesting) but still continues to lean a little more towards less higher karma guilds, at least in theory and mathematically.  How it all performs in the wild will be very interesting to see! 

[John]

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

This would be a good way to help mitigate the "screw it, just not playing for X  months" factor, and would help encourage players to sit it out with existing characters (whom they might come to enjoy). Otherwise lower karma/0 karma roles are available.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

I think this is a good option. Would a proactive roll call from staff for new sorcerers/psionicists on a monthly (or every X months) be considered? Someone else came up with the suggestion and it would cut down on the "can I play one, yet? Can I play one, yet?" factor. It would also stop the "I should have asked 1 day earlier/later" paranoia that some players are sure to develop as well.

A wait list could always work. But is that going to increase or cut down staff's work compared to a monthly role call for a (secret number of) sorcerer/psionicist slots? Also would it increase the chance of people storing other (potentially) fun characters just because they've been waiting 6 months on the wait list and don't want to wait another 6 months? People wouldn't even need to tell you their concept if you didn't want to know, simply that they were interested and then ask for further details if you select them.

If you do decide to stick with the specail app process. How long does it normally take? In days of old you could wait 6 months for a special app to get processed (at least from what I heard. I never asked for this reason). The only time I've asked for them is when the skill bumps/extended subguilds were available via special app and that was because staff was treating them as a priority.

[Vox]

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

Very nice indeed. Kudos for the quick response based on player feedback!

But I do agree with Fathi(no surprise there) regarding a gentler roll out of the karma regen system. I don't think anything would be lost from setting the regen to a ~3 months(or less  ) and seeing how that goes for a year with the caveat that it may be increased based on both player and staff feedback.

Anyway, these are all very promising developments! Thanks!

[Cind]

I'm one of those people that loves my witches (although I don't play them anymore for the time being), and I kind of wish water and stone touched would be 0 karma. For those of us who know what that kind of witch is capable of, there aren't exactly going to be a bunch of random manifestees walking around trying to destroy everything, but it keeps witches on the table for those of us who literally don't want to play anything else.

[FantasyWriter]

We have been discussing the suggestions and feel that we are leaning heavily toward making the following modifications.  I will update the original post after some more discussion staff side and here as well. Please discuss!

1) Modify the timing so that it is reversed, allowing for the first point of karma regen to happen on the shortest duration and the other points to regen at longer duration.

2) Modify the timing of karma regen so that it will be 30 days for the first point, then another 45 days for the second point and  an addition 45 days for the third point to regen.  This would mean that the longest duration possible to get back to 3 karma would be 4 months while playing lower karma roles could be done in 1 month (1 karma) or 2.5 months (2 karma).  As an example, if you were a 2 karma player and you spent one, you would get that one back in 30 days because you were only down one karma.

3) Modifying the requirement for the number of psions/sorcs to be a percentage of the playerbase at a given time not an arguably arbitrary number.

4) Add some verbiage to the post making it clear that the timing of the karma regen could change based on data gathered over time with regards to the population of character in various karma levels.

*slowclap.jpeg*

[valeria]

Would something like a karma refund address the problem, that I've had too, where some character combination doesn't really click without feeling overly punitive? Like, if you store your PC within that first 30 days (because it's just not your cup of tea) you get your spent karma refunded.

[Lizzie]

To address the "I thought I'd like this karma role but turns out I hate it" dilemma:

A 10-day grace period on ALL non-zero roles, including both karma and sponsored roles. Criteria: You can't suicide your character, you have to submit a request for storage. Once that request is approved, as long as the *request* was put in before the 10-day period after the character was first entered into the game, the karma or sponsored roll toggle would revert to what it was before you submitted the app for that role.

Example:

I want to play a ranger krathi-agony (or whatever they are). It costs me 3 karma. I have 3 available. I app for it, and now have an empty karma pool I play my krathi for four days and realize I just don't like her, I don't like where she's going, I still haven't figured out where she fits in the world, and I don't want to be gemmed but there's currently a witch hunt going on and EVERY clan is involved, thus leaving my character completely iso (since at day 4, she hasn't had enough time to meet any other rogues yet). By day 6 I'm absolutely convinced. This character is a total mistake on my part. I give it just two more days "just in case" because I'm Lizzie and I always do that. By the 8th day, I'm finished. I submit a storage request.

Four days later, my request is approved and my karma is reset to 3 points. But Lizzie, it was approved on the 12th day and you said 10 days! Yes, young padawam, but I also specified that the criteria would be based on when I submitted the request, not when it is approved. I submitted it on the 8th day. So it counts, and my karma is reset.

What would ALSO be awesome...

If you have submitted a storage request within that 10-day period, you could have an option to submit a new 0-karma character at the same time. Both requests would be handled by the same staffer, and the switch would be immediate upon approval of the submission. Sometimes people have to wait a few days to store, and that, unfortunately, promotes suiciding characters which is frowned upon by the staff. Allowing a 0-karma character to be approved at the same time storage of a previous character is approved, would reduce instances of that behavior (though obviously not eliminate it). If you wanted to play another karma-required character you'd still have to wait for your existing karma character to be stored, before you could submit another one.