Man that sucks.

[Miradus]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

help gortok

Gortok                                                          (Animal Life)

   A common type of canine in the northlands, the gortok are well-known as
wild predatory scavengers with a strong pack mentality. They are not known
for particular intelligence or cleanliness, but are quite hardy, capable of
loping great distances after their slowly tiring prey before moving in with
their vise-like jaws. Their hides often become an all but useless mass of
scar tissue due to the constant fighting amongst themselves or the wounds
received during a hunt.

The documentation says they are a canine. We know as English speakers what female canines are called. You literally have actual young ones in the game called "pups", so calling a female one a "bitch" is no stretch of the imagination.

What would be a stretch would be equating calling a woman a "bitch" when she is not, in fact, a female canine. I think that evolved in western culture as something insulting due to factors that probably don't exist in this game world. However since plenty of players DO use that word, it clearly has come about somehow unless you want to just retcon the whole thing.

[Synthesis]

Using idioms that don't "exactly" fit the Zalanthan theme isn't about making everything fit the Zalanthan theme.

To be offensive in-character, you MUST be at least somewhat offensive out-of-character as well.  An in-character insult cannot sting if it doesn't have some component that makes the other PLAYER (OOC) feel offended as well.  And if we don't feel that sting...what is the point of playing?  If we don't FEEL SOMETHING, all we're doing is typing and reading the results of the random-number-generator.

The main problem with using other words as work-arounds to thematically inappropriate common insults is that there ARE NO WORDS that will have the same effect.  There is no one who speaks American English who will be equally offended by "you, sir, are an intellectually-challenged coward who enjoys procreating with women who have borne children" and "you fucking pussy-ass retard motherfucker."  Corollary to this, using Zalanthan-themed words as substitutes results in insults that are utterly lacking in OOC emotiveness.  If someone calls my character "a tregil," it's not going to rustle a single fucking jimmy over here, and there's going to be some confusion as to whether he meant I'm a coward, adorable, or both.  If someone calls me a "fucking pussy," the meaning and the sting are there immediately.  The other problem is that even if work-around language exists, it may be equally thematically inappropriate to the vernacular of the common Zalanthan.  It would be difficult, for example, to take a 'rinther seriously if they uttered the first example.

The point of using such language is not to celebrate its usage in real life.  The point is to play believable, emotion-inducing characters in a world that is at times much harsher, nastier, and more offensive than real life.  The fact that the words that make us angry don't exactly mesh with the Zalanthan universe is a reason not to use them, but there is a more compelling reason to continue to use them: without them we lose access to the connections that link words to imagination to emotions, and without that strong emotional component, the game is not worth playing.

[BadSkeelz]

I've always felt on safer ground calling people out as acting like a "gortok" or "breed" instead of a "bitch". For one thing, gortoks seem to be fractious and prone to pointless infighting regardless of sex. And the whineyness and unreliability of breeds is a well-known stereotype.

I want my curses to make sense in two ways: within the Zalanthan setting, but also to the player behind the keyboard. Sometimes you need to compromise and not get so stumpy about it.

[FantasyWriter]

I am all for making your characters emotes and speech more authentic, that is by far the best option.
I am only concerned with RP/speech policing to the extent that it starts bothering/turning people off to the game, especially people still trying to wrap their minds around our monster of a learning curve.  We write this living novel in English.  English words are appropriate so long as they are not jarring or anti-doc.  If we did not have canines who are, in Google's words, difficult and unpleasant to deal with in Zalanthas, it would be out of place.

Google:

bitch
biCH/Submit
noun
1.
a female dog, wolf, fox, or otter.
2.
informal
a difficult or unpleasant situation or thing.
"the stove is a bitch to fix"
synonyms:   nightmare; More
verbinformal
1.
express displeasure; grumble.
"they bitch about everything"
synonyms:   complain, whine, grumble, grouse; More

[Decadent Decisions]

Also worth noting that 'bitch' was removed very recently (within the last week) from the curses helpfile, in the process of all of this, and when it WAS in there, it specifically referred to the female gortok.

Just to address Brokkr's 'please point me'. Unless he/she was being facetious. My bad, if so.

[th3kaiser]

Using idioms that don't "exactly" fit the Zalanthan theme isn't about making everything fit the Zalanthan theme.

To be offensive in-character, you MUST be at least somewhat offensive out-of-character as well.  An in-character insult cannot sting if it doesn't have some component that makes the other PLAYER (OOC) feel offended as well.  And if we don't feel that sting...what is the point of playing?  If we don't FEEL SOMETHING, all we're doing is typing and reading the results of the random-number-generator.

The main problem with using other words as work-arounds to thematically inappropriate common insults is that there ARE NO WORDS that will have the same effect.  There is no one who speaks American English who will be equally offended by "you, sir, are an intellectually-challenged coward who enjoys procreating with women who have borne children" and "you fucking pussy-ass retard motherfucker."  Corollary to this, using Zalanthan-themed words as substitutes results in insults that are utterly lacking in OOC emotiveness.  If someone calls my character "a tregil," it's not going to rustle a single fucking jimmy over here, and there's going to be some confusion as to whether he meant I'm a coward, adorable, or both.  If someone calls me a "fucking pussy," the meaning and the sting are there immediately.  The other problem is that even if work-around language exists, it may be equally thematically inappropriate to the vernacular of the common Zalanthan.  It would be difficult, for example, to take a 'rinther seriously if they uttered the first example.

The point of using such language is not to celebrate its usage in real life.  The point is to play believable, emotion-inducing characters in a world that is at times much harsher, nastier, and more offensive than real life.  The fact that the words that make us angry don't exactly mesh with the Zalanthan universe is a reason not to use them, but there is a more compelling reason to continue to use them: without them we lose access to the connections that link words to imagination to emotions, and without that strong emotional component, the game is not worth playing.

All of this. Frankly, I find this to be just a ridiculous change. No offense staff, but can we just not? It's not a good decision.

[Tisiphone]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?curse

Amusingly, 'necker' isn't there.

[Refugee]

We had a discussion not very long ago about using words that conveyed a meaning that weren't particularly Zalanthan.  Like Cornsilk Hair or Sky blue eyes (I don't remember the exact words but this gets my point across.)  And most of us thought it was okay, because it really just is an efficient way to communicate something.

This is how I feel about these words, like pussy.  Everyone knows when you call them a pussy you mean they are weak and/or cowardly.  It brings with it a certain force and attitude, and defines the speaker as coarse and probably bullying.  It communicates a lot of things efficiently.  Dickhead, ballsy, whatever.  These words we chose display our characters as well as the emotes we write.

Because we've started down this slippery slope, I expect threads every few days from someone who has decided to be oocly offended by some choice someone else made to attempt to communicate something in a make believe setting.  And some of us will think Oh my God, I can't believe someone said that awful thing.  And some of us will think it's silly to be offended by it.  Some of us will feel uncomfortable in game.  I've already found myself in that latter position.

I don't think it's gonna be much fun.

[valeria]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?curse

Amusingly, 'necker' isn't there.

I think it was removed because of that other thread I can't link to since I'm on my phone.

[Melkor]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

I love the wayback machine.

[BadSkeelz]

Hmm. Would this thread's title ("Man that sucks") be an appropriate Zalanthan saying? The use of "Man" seems a little RL colloquial to me.

Incidentally can we just delete the first page of this thread and rename it to "Feck You: Zalanthan cursing discussion"? It's a much more interesting and productive topic.

[montarion]

One more point to the "never associated necker with any other word until I saw it pointed out" squad.

Should definitely ban "feck" though. Just say "fuck" already.

[FantasyWriter]

Pretty sure fellatio in a world without regular bathing and hygiene would be a pretty dreary task, so yeah, I think it fits to use it to demonstrate that you find a task/event/news difficult, unenjoyable, or disheartening to deal with.

[hopeandsorrow]

Hmm. Would this thread's title ("Man that sucks") be an appropriate Zalanthan saying? The use of "Man" seems a little RL colloquial to me.

Incidentally can we just delete the first page of this thread and rename it to "Feck You: Zalanthan cursing discussion"? It's a much more interesting and productive topic.

As thread master.

No.

[Classclown]

Technically, we're not really saying any of these words ig, we're saying the equivalent of them, in Sirihish, in Bendune, etc. For that matter, why do our poems and songs rhyme ig? I've done it. The words might not even rhyme in the other languages.

ETA:This also made me think about people's accents ig, the ones we use by typing things like goin', 'til.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Wait, there are word police?

[sleepyhead]

Our poems and songs rhyme IG because we're dealing with a functional translation, not a literal one. The "goin'" thing is the same. Assume the nearest Sirihish equivalent of whatever slang or dialect we're using.

The only time I have ever run into trouble using that explanation is that when something rhymes in Bendune, I don't like to make it automatically rhyme in my Sirihish translation. For example, one of my characters once said "the bigger the rack, the sorer the back" in Bendune, but when people asked me to translate it into Sirihish for them, I said something much more awkward that didn't rhyme.

[Hauwke]

Well rhyming is always a pain for any language - language conversion. Seinfeld became one of the unfunniest things ever because of it.

[BlittzOff]

How did this damn MUD survive 20 years if you all burst out into drama over the tiniest crap.

[Kankfly]

How did this damn MUD survive 20 years if you all burst out into drama over the tiniest crap.

Because we all happened to be hopped up on the covfefe