Man that sucks.

[hopeandsorrow]

Talking to a friend the other day whom is of former staff.


Obviously what will only be referred to as "the event" came up.

I think staff particularity producers need to be transparent on how negative feedback towards players is handled.  Players often get finger pointing happy with out actually knowing the process.  You guys should really share that.


As far as I know, Nergal was doing a lot of work for towards the game.  Most of which isn't obviously apparent.  But according to sources who will remain anonymous, Nergal put a whole lot of effort towards the game script wise.  Not to mention the whole Guild Revamp.

While I can't defend what he said, I know where all human.  What sucks more is losing a dedicated staffer working to actually grow the game.  So I hope some you all are happy with yourselves.

Also staff leadership, don't put talented staffer in the punching bag position.  It high time you make the STs deal with their problem players, this system where you make one staffer a disciplinarian, keeps blowing up in your face.

Also Nergal, I love you.

[Patuk]

Are you going to make a thread like this every time a player quits, too?

[Chettaman]

I just took a placement test for some college and I just wanted to say,
"Man that sucks." is an innapropriate title for this thread. ... I think.

Might I suggest, "Man, that sucks." or "Man. that sucks."

end derail.

[hopeandsorrow]

Are you going to make a thread like this every time a player quits, too?

Nah.

[Pretentious]

I'm confused. Did we lose a staffer?

[Riev]

I'm confused. Did we lose a staffer?

Its not anything to worry on. Just someone that needs to cool their heels a bit after some things were said.

[Adhira]

Nergal is taking time away from the game. He had a break scheduled. Recent events have caused him take that break now, rather than at the end of the week as planned. We hope that he will be returning to us. In the meantime Nathvaan is changing his role from Administrator to Producer.

[sleepyhead]

While I can't defend what he said, I know where all human.  What sucks more is losing a dedicated staffer working to actually grow the game.  So I hope some you all are happy with yourselves.

Well, considering what happened, this staff member was long overdue for taking a break from the game. If I helped nudge him into it by voicing my concerns and putting in a complaint as is the prescribed avenue for such things, I don't feel particularly ashamed of that, because his resulting decision is probably best for everyone. There's not much more to be said that wouldn't be inappropriate here, but I think if you get to the point where such small things cause you to fly off the handle, you definitely need to give yourself some breathing room.

And I don't think anyone who pointed out how inappropriate the exchange was should be made to feel guilty for noticing just how inappropriate it was. Yes, Nergal's human and I'm sure we can all relate to how he felt in that moment if we allow ourselves to, but I don't feel bad about at least attempting to hold Producers in particular to a higher standard than Random GDB Poster #2938.

That's about all I have to say.

[BadSkeelz]

While I can't defend what he said, I know where all human.  What sucks more is losing a dedicated staffer working to actually grow the game.  So I hope some you all are happy with yourselves.

Also staff leadership, don't put talented staffer in the punching bag position.  It high time you make the STs deal with their problem players, this system where you make one staffer a disciplinarian, keeps blowing up in your face.

Also Nergal, I love you.

Hopefully he'll lighten up some after his (long overdue) break.

[Riev]

While I can't defend what he said, I know where all human.  What sucks more is losing a dedicated staffer working to actually grow the game.  So I hope some you all are happy with yourselves.

Well, considering what happened, this staff member was long overdue for taking a break from the game. If I helped nudge him into it by voicing my concerns and putting in a complaint as is the prescribed avenue for such things, I don't feel particularly ashamed of that, because his resulting decision is probably best for everyone. There's not much more to be said that wouldn't be inappropriate here, but I think if you get to the point where such small things cause you to fly off the handle, you definitely need to give yourself some breathing room.

And I don't think anyone who pointed out how inappropriate the exchange was should be made to feel guilty for noticing just how inappropriate it was. Yes, Nergal's human and I'm sure we can all relate to how he felt in that moment if we allow ourselves to, but I don't feel bad about at least attempting to hold Producers in particular to a higher standard than Random GDB Poster #2938.

That's about all I have to say.

I felt bad for half a moment, because he had quoted my response about throwing weight around. Then I got angry. Then Adhira above mentioned he was planning on taking a break from things anyways.

Nothing about my comment was "you suck" or "You're doing it wrong". It was "Hey, man. Be careful, here. You're starting to tread on dangerous ground and its leaving a bad taste". So. I'm happy with myself. I tried to keep things on track and civil.

It was like a Player Announcement saying "I'm leaving you all suck" but it was from a staffer. We all need breaks, and sometimes a big explosion pre-empts that.

[Tisiphone]

Nergal is taking time away from the game. He had a break scheduled. Recent events have caused him take that break now, rather than at the end of the week as planned. We hope that he will be returning to us. In the meantime Nathvaan is changing his role from Administrator to Producer.

Given that that's the case, is the 'necker' decision still final? I'll freely say that I personally disagree with it and I'm hoping you'll say no, but I'm only asking because this implies that maybe this was a regrettable accident rather than something staff intend to stand firm. I'll obey either way. (And I'm really not trying to wheedle for a preferred decision here, just to clear up. So sorry if this comes off as the former instead of the latter.)

Assuming the ban on 'necker' is still intended, can I ask that someone throw it in the MotD? I for one don't check the GDB that often, and only found out about the whole discussion by accident. I wouldn't want anyone who was simply ignorant of a policy decision to run afoul of said decision.

[sleepyhead]

I'm in the anti-censorship camp when it comes to "necker," but I'm even more concerned that we're going to start micromanaging insults like "dick" and it would be nice to get some clarification about that.

As a female player I do not feel empowered or protected in any way by a ban on "gendered" insults. I just feel limited and stifled.

[Melkor]

I never really weighed in on the gender-related insults, though I am sure my position is known, I would like to defend the insults themselves.

1) Insults referencing genitalia. Dick, Pussy, etc.

Sexism does not exist in Zalanthas. The sexes are equal. This does not mean that male and female genitalia have the same function. The simple fact that a dick fucks things and a pussy gets fucked denotes certain characteristics and attributes (Dominant/Submissive. Active/passive. etc.) which can be referenced by calling someone a dick, or a pussy.
This rational destroys the narrative that these insults do not fit in the game.

2)Bitch.
Ever walked by a bitch guarding her pups? They are mean as fuck. To call a woman a bitch refers to this characteristic.
Or, regarding function, again: a bitch gets bred, not the other way around. To call a man a bitch is extremely insulting, as it suggests he is submissive, subservient.


Now that I am thinking about it, the sole fact that - despite 100% gender equality in Zalanthas - Men and Women still take different roles in reproduction means that discrimination based on gender is not only unavoidable, but reasonable.

The insults are legitimate, and relevant, even in Zalanthas. Because of this, I believe that the press for "safe" insults is based solely on catering to "trigger-warning" culture. If you all remember the thread about censorship and moderating in online gaming communities from a month or two back... I would wager that that video had a big part in influencing this push.


Eh... I just hope I wont have to censor myself in a fantasy game, lest big-brother do the censoring for me, or take punitive measures against me for my choice of words.

[Kankfly]

Nergal is taking time away from the game. He had a break scheduled. Recent events have caused him take that break now, rather than at the end of the week as planned. We hope that he will be returning to us. In the meantime Nathvaan is changing his role from Administrator to Producer.

Given that that's the case, is the 'necker' decision still final? I'll freely say that I personally disagree with it and I'm hoping you'll say no, but I'm only asking because this implies that maybe this was a regrettable accident rather than something staff intend to stand firm. I'll obey either way. (And I'm really not trying to wheedle for a preferred decision here, just to clear up. So sorry if this comes off as the former instead of the latter.)

Assuming the ban on 'necker' is still intended, can I ask that someone throw it in the MotD? I for one don't check the GDB that often, and only found out about the whole discussion by accident. I wouldn't want anyone who was simply ignorant of a policy decision to run afoul of said decision.

I wonder about this too. Is this a final decision? I've never connected 'necker' with any other word until that thread came up.

[Synthesis]

I'm gonna keep fucking calling neckers neckers, and if y'all have a problem with it...good.

It's supposed to be offensive, so mission fucking accomplished.

[Melkor]

I'm gonna keep fucking calling neckers neckers, and if y'all have a problem with it...good.

It's supposed to be offensive, so mission fucking accomplished.

[Marc]

I wonder about this too. Is this a final decision? I've never connected 'necker' with any other word until that thread came up.

This.  A thousand times, this.

If we change how we play, the terrorists win.

#ignoranceisbliss

[frankjacoby]

[FantasyWriter]

I wonder about this too. Is this a final decision? I've never connected 'necker' with any other word until that thread came up.

In our culture, some people literally make a living (and good ones at that) out of getting offended and getting proxy-offended for others.
There are parts of our society who, also quite literally, go around and look for things to offend them.  It is no shock that this has bled into the playerbase.

'Necker' is phonetically closer to 'cracker' than it it is the other word.  I do not mean to hurt the "offended" players feelings, but this is a silly thing.  If, however, the PLAYER whom they complained against was against (if there was a specific incident involved) was some how using 'Necker' as  the other word, then I am sure staff did/would have corrected that player with an appropriately sized wrist-slap and told them not to do it again if they wished to continue playing the game.


I agree with Meklor's opinions on sexual organ slang/insults.
Calling someone a dick for screwing something up/over are always trying to stick your 'nose' in everyone's business... Makes sense without sexism being involved.
Calling someone a cunt because they let people run over them/take advantage of them/screw them over.  Makes sense without sexism.
Calling someone who is overly agressive or complains/growls(bitches) a lot a bitch... fits without sexism.

I do disagree that calling a man a bitch/cunt is any more demeaning than doing the same for a woman.  That IS sexism.

[nauta]

Idioms/insults that make no sense in Zalanthas:

Not all idiom/swears that include terms denoting genitalia are anachronistic.  Some are.  Censorship is one thing.  Using phrases that don't fit the setting is another.  Here are some phrases that if your character uttered them, other characters would think they were an idiot or from another planet:

Examples:

'You little pussy.'  Meaning: You are weak.  Why would a normal Zalanthan think you are an idiot for saying this?  Because in the real world, we are sexist and think of women (things with pussies) as weak.  In Zalanthas things with pussies are equally strong.

'Grow some balls.' Meaning: Get stronger.  Why would a normal Zalanthan think you were an idiot for saying this?  Because in the real world, we are sexist and think that things without balls are weak.  In Zalanthas, things with and without balls are equally strong.

'Cocksucker.' Meaning: You are someone who enjoys sucking penises, usually said to a male, usually to imply they are gay, which further implies they are abnormal and/or weak.  Why would a normal Zalanthan think you were an idiot for saying this? Because in the real world, we are homophobic and think of gay people (and/or women) who suck cock as weak.

[valeria]

'Cocksucker.' Meaning: You are someone who enjoys sucking penises, usually said to a male, usually to imply they are gay, which further implies they are abnormal and/or weak.  Why would a normal Zalanthan think you were an idiot for saying this? Because in the real world, we are homophobic and think of gay people (and/or women) who suck cock as weak.

I previously used this more or less interchangeably with 'cuntliker' in my tenure here, meaning: one who gives oral sex in a world setting where that would be pretty disgusting.  But I've since phased it out because I didn't like the connotations you have mentioned.

[azuriolinist]

I wasn't bothered by the use of the words for those particular genitalia, but I really can't get behind Melkor's points in support of their use. Let me get this out there: I'm probably biased, tbh. Melkor's post just reinforces the idea behind the removal of the words, in my point of view.

Intercourse, breeding, sex, whatever, is usually (all the emphasizes on this word) this two-way process where the the partners are both "fucking" one another.

Sure, in the real world, females may be more submissive than men. ICly, though, there would be little difference. So I can't get behind the stand on the word "bitch", where a man being called that way would be insulting because it suggests him being submissive. That should be a RL thing, not IC, because frankly, like FantasyWriter said, it's sexist.

I'm probably nitpicking over wording, but I was pretty bothered over it. I can get behind looking at the entire thing in an anatomical viewpoint when/if they're introduced back to the game. Dicks stick into pussies and all that. But the reasonings seem to be soaked in hefty dosage of RL biases.

[whitt]

Here are some phrases that if your character uttered them, other characters players bleeding modern day thought into the game would think they were an idiot or from another planet:

Fixed that for you.

Examples:

'You little pussy.'  Meaning: You are weak only good for your breeding parts.

Women in Zalanthas are still the only ones that can bare children suggesting someone wasn't strong enough to valuable for more than that is  still viable, if entirely misunderstanding the rigors of childbirth.  You womb?  Just doesn't just have the ring to it.

'Grow some balls.' Meaning: Get stronger Be a useful.

Again, only men in Zalanthas can impregnate a woman.  A man without balls can't.  They are, quite literally, a useless fuck.

'Cocksucker.' Meaning: You are someone who enjoys sucking penises, usually said to a male,

Not in Zalanthas.

usually to imply they are gay,

Not in Zalanthas.

which further implies they are abnormal and/or weak.

Not in Zalantas.

Why would a normal Zalanthan think you were  an idiot be perfectly fine with you for saying this?

Because Zalanthans are not neat, tidy, clean people.  Stuffing someone's hot, sweaty, smelly phallus into your mouth and sucking on it like a sugar candy is generally gross?  Bootlicker, Asskisser, Brownnoser all similar, but weaker versions of the same premise, but weaker insults as you aren't just touching the tip, you're wrapping yourself around it.

In short, I'll leave this quote, attributed to Betty White, but apparently Snopes says it's from elsewhere which is a shame, because I can totally hear it in her voice.

Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really wanna get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!

[Jihelu]

My new favored insult is "I bet you eat ass"

[FantasyWriter]

'You little pussy.'  Meaning: You are weak.  Why would a normal Zalanthan think you are an idiot for saying this?.

Ever fought a quirri?
Seriously, though, I agree with your list as well.

[nauta]

Here are some phrases that if your character uttered them, other characters players bleeding modern day thought into the game would think they were an idiot or from another planet:

Fixed that for you.

Examples:

'You little pussy.'  Meaning: You are weak only good for your breeding parts.

Women in Zalanthas are still the only ones that can bare children suggesting someone wasn't strong enough to valuable for more than that is  still viable, if entirely misunderstanding the rigors of childbirth.  You womb?  Just doesn't just have the ring to it.

'Grow some balls.' Meaning: Get stronger Be a useful.

Again, only men in Zalanthas can impregnate a woman.  A man without balls can't.  They are, quite literally, a useless fuck.

'Cocksucker.' Meaning: You are someone who enjoys sucking penises, usually said to a male,

Not in Zalanthas.

usually to imply they are gay,

Not in Zalanthas.

which further implies they are abnormal and/or weak.

Not in Zalantas.

Why would a normal Zalanthan think you were  an idiot be perfectly fine with you for saying this?

Because Zalanthans are not neat, tidy, clean people.  Stuffing someone's hot, sweaty, smelly phallus into your mouth and sucking on it like a sugar candy is generally gross?  Bootlicker, Asskisser, Brownnoser all similar, but weaker versions of the same premise, but weaker insults as you aren't just touching the tip, you're wrapping yourself around it.

In short, I'll leave this quote, attributed to Betty White, but apparently Snopes says it's from elsewhere which is a shame, because I can totally hear it in her voice.

Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really wanna get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!

Just to be clear, those were idioms and slang phrases from RL, not Zalanthas, which I do not think fit into Zalanthas naturally.  You can invent an ad hoc just-so backstory to make it so that your sexist and homophobic RL slang can fit, but why bother?

[Miradus]

This is Armageddon.

Someone offends your delicate sensibilities?

Whip out that bone sword and cut off his prick. Pickle it with salt and wear it on a string around your neck as a reminder to others to be more polite.

Most of our modern complaints of sexism come from being helpless in the face of racism and sexism, directed at us by our employers or coworkers when we cannot do anything about it.

In Armageddon, you can always do something about it. If your own strength fails, use your cunning and coin to hire someone else. The shadows are always waiting to avenge any slight.

[FantasyWriter]

[Lizzie]

Agree with Miradus, more or less. With the point he's making anyway.

If there is no sexism in Armageddon, then you are being a sexist player by interpreting insults in your character's direction as being sexist.

If someone calls my character a whining little bitch, I'll respond in a NON-sexist way, by assuming they are referring to a female gortok in heat. I imagine a female gortok in heat is a rather unpleasant, smelly, nasty, violent, and otherwise repulsive creature. I'll accept that insult as though this was what they meant by it, and respond accordingly.

If someone calls my character the c-word, I'll probably attempt to let it slide because I know it's a trigger word for me personally. I have no logical explanation for it, has nothing to do with sexism for me. It's just a word that raises my hackles for no real reason I can think of.

As for the term cocksucker - I've always used it to describe someone I don't like. I never gave it any other meaning. It has always meant "the person (male or female) I can't stand because s/he's thoroughly unpleasant and churlish." I don't think that people who engage in the actual literal behavior are unpleasant or churlish. It's not a sexist remark, coming from me. It's just a handy term that "feels" good to say out loud when I'm really pissed at someone, so I use it in the game. For the same reason I say "shit!" when some abrupt, sudden, sharply unpleasant thing occurs. Not because I actually want to take a shit, and not because I think that the thing that is happening is a turd on the road. But because the word FEELS good to say out loud. It's just an expletive, that doesn't really mean anything at all when I say it other than - wowie, oh, jeez, gosh, hey. Shit just sounds better than any of those.

Bastard is a tough one - because bastard nobles are a thing, and they are gentically superior to commoners, though lack the status of nobles. So if a commoner were to call someone a rotten bastard, it'd probably be an off-handed compliment. And if a noble called them that, it'd be a grave insult. For that reason - the reason of logistics - I avoid using that particular word unless I am referring specifically to a bastard noble.

Pussy - I don't use that word for the same reason I don't use the word dick. They're funny words to me and make me giggle, I can't take any scene very seriously when I see those words scroll up on the game screen. They're immersion breakers, for me. And has absolutely zilch, nada, nothing, to do with sexism.

[FantasyWriter]

I can see full blooded highborn calling each other bastards as insults (thus challenging their right to authority or the legitimacy of their will). I don't think a commoner should -ever- use the word bastard as an insult, period.

[sleepyhead]

A commoner shouldn't use the word "bastard" as an insult, but if someone did it I'd probably just assume they actually said something comparable and chalk it up to the Sirihish to English translation . Unless, of course, they were new or I otherwise suspected they didn't know better, in which case I'd try to let them know OOCly in a non-patronizing way. Sometimes those things just slip out, and sometimes they're a result of ignorance.

Also, I'm not saying all gendered insults are appropriate IG, but I don't like the idea of a blanket ban. Why isn't the way we've always done it OK, where if you felt that someone was being overly sexist you could report it? Saying "that guy is such a prick" is a lot less sexist than saying "stop trying to be the man of the house and get back to dusting the furniture," after all. The most sexist stuff I've seen in game had absolutely nothing to do with words like "bitch" or "cunt" or "dick." And yes, I have reported someone for sexism IG.

[Riev]

I remember when we had this discussion, and it was locked.

I'm more interested in "Is what Nergal said, canon? Can we get a MOTD or a Staff Announcement from ArmageddonMUD to solidify staff position?

[sleepyhead]

Except we never did discuss the gendered insults. We discussed "necker" plenty, but the declaration about "dick" etc. just kind of came out of nowhere.

But yes, that is the important bit. I'm personally not going to consider it binding unless we get a more formal announcement because I trust staff to not hide important game rules on a random locked thread.

[Miradus]

I'm going to stick to calling all fuckers "fuckers".

It's my trademark insult. You can't use it without copying me.

And if you do, you owe me sid.

[FantasyWriter]

I miss kank-fucker.
I also miss kank being a verb. 

[boog]

I still use it as a verb. Whoops.

And I agree with Nauta, actually.

Be more creative with the gameworld theme in mind.

[Jihelu]

When did Kank stop being a verb?

[sleepyhead]

I still use it as a verb. Whoops.

And I agree with Nauta, actually.

Be more creative with the gameworld theme in mind.

I agree, and I don't usually use those kinds of insults anyway, but it'd be good to know whether or not we will actually be punished OOCly for slipping and using them.

[FantasyWriter]

May not have. I just haven't heard it in two or three years, probably.

[sleepyhead]

I still use it but I'm aware that realistically it'd be considered waaaay outdated, well beyond something that your grandfather used to say and into the territory of something your ancestors said.

[FantasyWriter]

Just did the math.... Going by the Year on the Chronology page that mentions the kank plague, it has been 99 Years in game.

[FantasyWriter]

I still use it but I'm aware that realistically it'd be considered waaaay outdated, well beyond something that your grandfather used to say and into the territory of something your ancestors said.

We use the "f" word, and I have no earthly idea where it came from.  I don't have a problem with using it, I just hadn't seen it in a while.
Release the KANKIN'!

[Melkor]

Tbh, my go-to insult for someone being an asshole is Asshole.
I cant remember the last time I used one of the insults I am defending.
That being said, I want them available should I ever have the desire to use them.
More words are better than less.

I dont think I've said it, but I'd love to ask an angry character, male or female, why they have sand in their vagina. If that ain't thematic, I don't know what is!
Sand?
Amirite? 

[nauta]

That being said, I want them available should I ever have the desire to use them.
More words are better than less.

Yeah, but do you get your panties in a knot over words like 'toaster', 'computer', and 'top hat'?

(See what I did there with 'panties in a knot'?) 

Some RL idioms are not very Zalanthan.  Some RL idioms are.

[Melkor]

True. Not disputing that. After all, I would have no reason to say the word toaster IG. If a female is being overly angry, aggressive, churlish, I would have a reason to compare her to a gortok bitch.

[Miradus]

I also like making up dwarf words.

"You filthy groggletup. That's my seat. Get out."

Get triggered by being called a groggletup. I dare you.

[Melkor]

The word groggletup is extremely problematic, as it speaks from a stance of stump-normative culture. Stop oppressing me.

[Miradus]

#stumpprivilege

[Brokkr]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

[Melkor]

Cleverrrr.


edited to add:

So, despite the word bitch existing IG for decades, and the word bitch being in the curse help-files until this safe-space endeavor...

Bitch isnt a thing.

[Miradus]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

help gortok

Gortok                                                          (Animal Life)

   A common type of canine in the northlands, the gortok are well-known as
wild predatory scavengers with a strong pack mentality. They are not known
for particular intelligence or cleanliness, but are quite hardy, capable of
loping great distances after their slowly tiring prey before moving in with
their vise-like jaws. Their hides often become an all but useless mass of
scar tissue due to the constant fighting amongst themselves or the wounds
received during a hunt.

The documentation says they are a canine. We know as English speakers what female canines are called. You literally have actual young ones in the game called "pups", so calling a female one a "bitch" is no stretch of the imagination.

What would be a stretch would be equating calling a woman a "bitch" when she is not, in fact, a female canine. I think that evolved in western culture as something insulting due to factors that probably don't exist in this game world. However since plenty of players DO use that word, it clearly has come about somehow unless you want to just retcon the whole thing.

[Synthesis]

Using idioms that don't "exactly" fit the Zalanthan theme isn't about making everything fit the Zalanthan theme.

To be offensive in-character, you MUST be at least somewhat offensive out-of-character as well.  An in-character insult cannot sting if it doesn't have some component that makes the other PLAYER (OOC) feel offended as well.  And if we don't feel that sting...what is the point of playing?  If we don't FEEL SOMETHING, all we're doing is typing and reading the results of the random-number-generator.

The main problem with using other words as work-arounds to thematically inappropriate common insults is that there ARE NO WORDS that will have the same effect.  There is no one who speaks American English who will be equally offended by "you, sir, are an intellectually-challenged coward who enjoys procreating with women who have borne children" and "you fucking pussy-ass retard motherfucker."  Corollary to this, using Zalanthan-themed words as substitutes results in insults that are utterly lacking in OOC emotiveness.  If someone calls my character "a tregil," it's not going to rustle a single fucking jimmy over here, and there's going to be some confusion as to whether he meant I'm a coward, adorable, or both.  If someone calls me a "fucking pussy," the meaning and the sting are there immediately.  The other problem is that even if work-around language exists, it may be equally thematically inappropriate to the vernacular of the common Zalanthan.  It would be difficult, for example, to take a 'rinther seriously if they uttered the first example.

The point of using such language is not to celebrate its usage in real life.  The point is to play believable, emotion-inducing characters in a world that is at times much harsher, nastier, and more offensive than real life.  The fact that the words that make us angry don't exactly mesh with the Zalanthan universe is a reason not to use them, but there is a more compelling reason to continue to use them: without them we lose access to the connections that link words to imagination to emotions, and without that strong emotional component, the game is not worth playing.

[BadSkeelz]

I've always felt on safer ground calling people out as acting like a "gortok" or "breed" instead of a "bitch". For one thing, gortoks seem to be fractious and prone to pointless infighting regardless of sex. And the whineyness and unreliability of breeds is a well-known stereotype.

I want my curses to make sense in two ways: within the Zalanthan setting, but also to the player behind the keyboard. Sometimes you need to compromise and not get so stumpy about it.

[FantasyWriter]

I am all for making your characters emotes and speech more authentic, that is by far the best option.
I am only concerned with RP/speech policing to the extent that it starts bothering/turning people off to the game, especially people still trying to wrap their minds around our monster of a learning curve.  We write this living novel in English.  English words are appropriate so long as they are not jarring or anti-doc.  If we did not have canines who are, in Google's words, difficult and unpleasant to deal with in Zalanthas, it would be out of place.

Google:

bitch
biCH/Submit
noun
1.
a female dog, wolf, fox, or otter.
2.
informal
a difficult or unpleasant situation or thing.
"the stove is a bitch to fix"
synonyms:   nightmare; More
verbinformal
1.
express displeasure; grumble.
"they bitch about everything"
synonyms:   complain, whine, grumble, grouse; More

[Decadent Decisions]

Also worth noting that 'bitch' was removed very recently (within the last week) from the curses helpfile, in the process of all of this, and when it WAS in there, it specifically referred to the female gortok.

Just to address Brokkr's 'please point me'. Unless he/she was being facetious. My bad, if so.

[th3kaiser]

Using idioms that don't "exactly" fit the Zalanthan theme isn't about making everything fit the Zalanthan theme.

To be offensive in-character, you MUST be at least somewhat offensive out-of-character as well.  An in-character insult cannot sting if it doesn't have some component that makes the other PLAYER (OOC) feel offended as well.  And if we don't feel that sting...what is the point of playing?  If we don't FEEL SOMETHING, all we're doing is typing and reading the results of the random-number-generator.

The main problem with using other words as work-arounds to thematically inappropriate common insults is that there ARE NO WORDS that will have the same effect.  There is no one who speaks American English who will be equally offended by "you, sir, are an intellectually-challenged coward who enjoys procreating with women who have borne children" and "you fucking pussy-ass retard motherfucker."  Corollary to this, using Zalanthan-themed words as substitutes results in insults that are utterly lacking in OOC emotiveness.  If someone calls my character "a tregil," it's not going to rustle a single fucking jimmy over here, and there's going to be some confusion as to whether he meant I'm a coward, adorable, or both.  If someone calls me a "fucking pussy," the meaning and the sting are there immediately.  The other problem is that even if work-around language exists, it may be equally thematically inappropriate to the vernacular of the common Zalanthan.  It would be difficult, for example, to take a 'rinther seriously if they uttered the first example.

The point of using such language is not to celebrate its usage in real life.  The point is to play believable, emotion-inducing characters in a world that is at times much harsher, nastier, and more offensive than real life.  The fact that the words that make us angry don't exactly mesh with the Zalanthan universe is a reason not to use them, but there is a more compelling reason to continue to use them: without them we lose access to the connections that link words to imagination to emotions, and without that strong emotional component, the game is not worth playing.

All of this. Frankly, I find this to be just a ridiculous change. No offense staff, but can we just not? It's not a good decision.

[Tisiphone]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?curse

Amusingly, 'necker' isn't there.

[Refugee]

We had a discussion not very long ago about using words that conveyed a meaning that weren't particularly Zalanthan.  Like Cornsilk Hair or Sky blue eyes (I don't remember the exact words but this gets my point across.)  And most of us thought it was okay, because it really just is an efficient way to communicate something.

This is how I feel about these words, like pussy.  Everyone knows when you call them a pussy you mean they are weak and/or cowardly.  It brings with it a certain force and attitude, and defines the speaker as coarse and probably bullying.  It communicates a lot of things efficiently.  Dickhead, ballsy, whatever.  These words we chose display our characters as well as the emotes we write.

Because we've started down this slippery slope, I expect threads every few days from someone who has decided to be oocly offended by some choice someone else made to attempt to communicate something in a make believe setting.  And some of us will think Oh my God, I can't believe someone said that awful thing.  And some of us will think it's silly to be offended by it.  Some of us will feel uncomfortable in game.  I've already found myself in that latter position.

I don't think it's gonna be much fun.

[valeria]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?curse

Amusingly, 'necker' isn't there.

I think it was removed because of that other thread I can't link to since I'm on my phone.

[Melkor]

Please point me to official references that female gortoks are called bitches, as opposed to she-toks, vixen, jill, gortokess, or simply gortok.

Interested to know if it is actually documented somewhere, or folks have just assumed.

I love the wayback machine.

[BadSkeelz]

Hmm. Would this thread's title ("Man that sucks") be an appropriate Zalanthan saying? The use of "Man" seems a little RL colloquial to me.

Incidentally can we just delete the first page of this thread and rename it to "Feck You: Zalanthan cursing discussion"? It's a much more interesting and productive topic.

[montarion]

One more point to the "never associated necker with any other word until I saw it pointed out" squad.

Should definitely ban "feck" though. Just say "fuck" already.

[FantasyWriter]

Pretty sure fellatio in a world without regular bathing and hygiene would be a pretty dreary task, so yeah, I think it fits to use it to demonstrate that you find a task/event/news difficult, unenjoyable, or disheartening to deal with.

[hopeandsorrow]

Hmm. Would this thread's title ("Man that sucks") be an appropriate Zalanthan saying? The use of "Man" seems a little RL colloquial to me.

Incidentally can we just delete the first page of this thread and rename it to "Feck You: Zalanthan cursing discussion"? It's a much more interesting and productive topic.

As thread master.

No.

[Classclown]

Technically, we're not really saying any of these words ig, we're saying the equivalent of them, in Sirihish, in Bendune, etc. For that matter, why do our poems and songs rhyme ig? I've done it. The words might not even rhyme in the other languages.

ETA:This also made me think about people's accents ig, the ones we use by typing things like goin', 'til.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Wait, there are word police?

[sleepyhead]

Our poems and songs rhyme IG because we're dealing with a functional translation, not a literal one. The "goin'" thing is the same. Assume the nearest Sirihish equivalent of whatever slang or dialect we're using.

The only time I have ever run into trouble using that explanation is that when something rhymes in Bendune, I don't like to make it automatically rhyme in my Sirihish translation. For example, one of my characters once said "the bigger the rack, the sorer the back" in Bendune, but when people asked me to translate it into Sirihish for them, I said something much more awkward that didn't rhyme.

[Hauwke]

Well rhyming is always a pain for any language - language conversion. Seinfeld became one of the unfunniest things ever because of it.

[BlittzOff]

How did this damn MUD survive 20 years if you all burst out into drama over the tiniest crap.

[Kankfly]

How did this damn MUD survive 20 years if you all burst out into drama over the tiniest crap.

Because we all happened to be hopped up on the covfefe