The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.

[nessalin]

You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

This has literally never happened.

[Riev]

You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

This has literally never happened.

I really need a /sarcasm button.

No, its never actually happened, I'm admitting it. But the idea was always there, that staff were the Overlords by name and reputation. Nobody would call Nessalin/You out on anything just because of respect and fear. Sort of how if the Nessalin Nebula was ever overhead, and you wished up, Bad Things (tm) happened.

Staff have a rough job, man. And they volunteer for it. And we, who do not volunteer for it, expect those that do to understand and accept the shitty attitudes we have.

There's way too much of a veil on what staff do, are working on, and availability. Nergal has a special place in my heart, because they make really good Space Battleships, but one person saying "no" is a rough position. And lets face it, as players, we need to be told no A LOT.

[FantasyWriter]

I would not ever bother to comment or probably even read a "discussion" where I could not defend a my argument, or expect someone else to defend theirs.  Also discussions have changed my mind before as they went on.  I would say anything about anything were I not able to change my public opinion on it.

[Large Hero]

If I have an hour of free time, and someone with a different opinion than my own has an hour of free time, we can end up counter-posting each other 4 times in that hour, giving the appearance of 'dominating' the discussion when really it's just responding to each other.  That's...entirely the point of a discussion in the first place.

It may be the point of the discussion Person A is having with Person B.

It is likely not, however, the point of the larger discussion the thread was created for.

Two people repeatedly arguing a minor point often does change the character and scope of a thread. It can easily become a derail. It should often be confined to private messages to avoid this. However, there's a lot of tunnel vision. People get attached to their point, and to being right, or being perceived to be right, and they value fighting that battle publicly over prioritizing the discussion the thread was created for.

A "one post per thread" in certain discussion threads would help to prevent certain individuals, or certain conflicts, drowning out the larger discussion with walls of text.

In this hypothetical one post per thread situation, if one person makes a post, and it's later misconstrued or attacked...that isn't the end of the world. The original post, and the responses to it, can stand on their own merits, and each reader can make their own decision.

Ideally, back and forth with clarifications is of course superior to "one post." However, I think this board has a real problem with a few individuals dominating discussions and strongly coloring the character of those discussions before others can post even one time.

I'd gladly trade the ability to clarify in order to let less-vocal posters have a larger share of the discussion pie.

edit: I'll add that I recognize the irony in my posting a 2nd time in this thread to defend burble's idea.

[stark]

The game world and the GDB both have outlined, implied, coded, and often enforced hierarchies. The owners/staff have left open a clear invitation to anyone wishing to apply to play in the reality they are currently responsible for. Often, they'll ask for player input to try to make things more interesting for that game world or even the GDB, however, that's no license to forget that we are here as guests. If you aren't able to fit into the hierarchies, you can petition the attention of staff for considerations, and they might be granted or they might not, there might even be an offer of an explanation. There is no responsibility of the staff to entertain any player or even the entire player base. We as a player base have to decide, each of us, whether we can fit into the world the way it exists at the time the choice is open. We can say no, and go somewhere else. We can try back later and see if something creative sparks us to try again, or maybe our perceptions might have changed and we can make that work for us. If not, it just is. So we decide.

Personal responsibility means that we take responsibility for our actions, or lack of actions. Blame solves nothing. I personally dislike aspects of the game and refuse to be party to those aspects. I expect many people feel the same. If someone tries to force me into a situation, (and believe me, that has happened) that I absolutely refuse to partake in, my character will likely endeavor to not play. I'm freed by choosing to play a different role and trying something different. The GDB is only a little different, but mostly it's full of opinions of people that are just beings here to play together. They don't all agree on everything, heck, they aren't even all remotely similar, but the one thing we all have in common is we are here to play the game. By doing so, we agree to the hierarchy, or to the appeal process of it, but we do give our agreement.

I'm reminded that often, MUDding is a distraction from RL, yet it reflects what is going on around us all. Spending time blaming others for how you feel or how you react to things isn't going to solve anything. If you have a feeling, and it's a strong feeling, and you feel it's a feeling you've felt before that has hurt or bothered you, something you feel strongly about, shut the game and the computer off and figure out where that feeling came from, what brings it out, and when was the first time you felt it. You'll find you had that feeling long before you were experiencing it in the game or on the GDB. Chances are, you've felt it several times before.

I'm not a shrink, certainly not perfect, and this is just my opinion. I haven't always agreed with the rules, but I've agreed TO them. It's like a shiny nickel that allows me to ride the ride.

There's been a lot of evolution of the game, players, and staff in the last fifteen-twenty years. Plots have been foiled, pulled off, put off, forgotten, etc. I've built MUDs, run MUDs, and played MUDs. It's time consuming and often infuriatingly thankless. Even just putting together something so simple as a byn outing, takes a lot out of players, without even considering staff. You can't expect the MUD to fulfill your life expectations, so if you want happiness, go make happiness, and then come back and MUD while you are happy.

[HavokBlue]

One time I spoke the name "Nessalin" aloud. My fields grew fallow and a plague of locusts darkened the sky and my family was blighted for seven times seven generations.


On a more constructive note, I think we can avoid a lot of drama if we assume people who disagree with us are disagreeing not out of some enmity toward us, but rather because they also care about the game and maybe have different ideas about what they think is best for it.

[Jihelu]

This one time I was talking in TS and I mentioned Rath in passing conversation.
He joined and began belligerently swearing at me in some language that I think represents British English and wouldn't stop until I left the channel. I had a friend in the channel and he messaged me on skype saying he didn't stop screaming till three hours later.

I don't know where I'm going with this meme but it's sarcasm.

[Kialae]

You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

This has literally never happened.

I really need a /sarcasm button.

No, its never actually happened, I'm admitting it. But the idea was always there, that staff were the Overlords by name and reputation. Nobody would call Nessalin/You out on anything just because of respect and fear. Sort of how if the Nessalin Nebula was ever overhead, and you wished up, Bad Things (tm) happened.

Staff have a rough job, man. And they volunteer for it. And we, who do not volunteer for it, expect those that do to understand and accept the shitty attitudes we have.

There's way too much of a veil on what staff do, are working on, and availability. Nergal has a special place in my heart, because they make really good Space Battleships, but one person saying "no" is a rough position. And lets face it, as players, we need to be told no A LOT.

I once wished up and said a dumb joke or something on like my second character ever or something, and Nessalin banned me from using the wish command indefinitely. I had to ask to get it fixed once I learned how importantly I needed it.

[John]

I've had Nessalin go cranky at me once or twice. However it was because I had discovered a command that when supplier with a particular argument caused the game to crash. He only banned me after the second time and only long enough to email me to stop. This is once back in 2002 or 2003. That's a pretty good track run and also completely umderstamdable.

.as I said before, I have never had a bad experience with staff in game or through the request tool. I can also day the only time I did get upset by a run in with staff on the GDB and raised it to them through the request tool, the response was completely reasonable and everything got cleared up.

[Riev]

I've had Nessalin go cranky at me once or twice. However it was because I had discovered a command that when supplier with a particular argument caused the game to crash. He only banned me after the second time and only long enough to email me to stop. This is once back in 2002 or 2003. That's a pretty good track run and also completely umderstamdable.

.as I said before, I have never had a bad experience with staff in game or through the request tool. I can also day the only time I did get upset by a run in with staff on the GDB and raised it to them through the request tool, the response was completely reasonable and everything got cleared up.

Your Experience May Vary. I'm still salty about a particular experience where I THOUGHT I was going to get banned because I still had the password to some Sponsored Role documents, and had been accessing them when another roll call came up to see if I was inspired. This was before the Request Tool, and was very surprising.

But here I am, like six years later, still playing. And I even said His Name on the GDB and didn't get Imm-Slayed, so... you know. Win win!

[Asche]

Oh, hey. A staff went nuclear and all evidence of it was actively censored with criticism or discussion resulting in locked threads, and the only way to know what the fuck is going on if you missed it is to visit the shadow board, and no hint of an apology will be offered from any party with a hint of power to their online name. Who could have seen that coming? The Game is the Game, and the GDB is the GDB, and they're all dying of the same fucking disease.

[John]

If you were targeted or impacted by what was said, then you could reach out to staff via the request tool and speak to them about it. Typically talking to people is more helpful than ranting on the GDB. I should know. I've done my fair share of ranting.

[Asche]

Me? Nah, no more impacted than in the general sense of watching one of my favorite games continue its steady decline into a death spiral. You nerds get on my nerves. All day, every day, passive aggression, a complete lack of culpability, and genuinely either a lack of foresight to see the outcomes of your actions, or a lack of caring. I tried nice. I tried cynical and logical. I tried a basic appeal to common fucking decency. I think I just need to accept that the common thread I've talked about uniting players and staff is that you're all fucking terrible. This game's got two years tops before it's playerbase drops to the teens, if not the single digits, active at any given time. Then we can all sneer smugly from atop the ash pile.

[John]

you're all fucking terrible.

You bitch about a staff member speaking about the playerbase in this fashion and then go ahead and post almost exactly the same sentiment. Proof anyone can have a bad day.

[FantasyWriter]

Me? Nah, no more impacted than in the general sense of watching one of my favorite games continue its steady decline into a death spiral. You nerds get on my nerves. All day, every day, passive aggression, a complete lack of culpability, and genuinely either a lack of foresight to see the outcomes of your actions, or a lack of caring. I tried nice. I tried cynical and logical. I tried a basic appeal to common fucking decency. I think I just need to accept that the common thread I've talked about uniting players and staff is that you're all fucking terrible. This game's got two years tops before it's playerbase drops to the teens, if not the single digits, active at any given time. Then we can all sneer smugly from atop the ash pile.

Another perfect example of why ignoring the GDB can be a good thing if your enjoyment of the game is/has been declining.

[Patuk]

Some people get permabanned for their bad days. Others get sympathy threads. I sure wonder why.

[ghanima]

There have been times where I thought the same, that in another year or two peak hours of play will only ever reach the high teens. Another year after that and then it slowly just fizzles out and dies. And maybe this is the inevitable future of all MUDs, though I guess that's a separate topic. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think that this is the case right now with Arm and won't be even in two years ahead.

I believe there have been some serious missteps that took its toll on the population. And it wasn't all that long ago where the game seemed to suffer from this all prevailing culture of negativity. I'm not going to bother saying who the responsible parties were back then but the atmosphere I'm playing in now has really taken a turn for the better. I can't stress that enough. Where once the attitude I was faced with was constant reminders of what I can not do, now suddenly I am met repeatedly with staff who are helping to empower my characters and see their ambitions and objectives realized. And without going into detail I've received the fruits of my labor several times already. It's good that the game is in hard mode but there was a point where it was just plain impossible mode with constant reminders that you are just a cog in the wheel and don't expect your character to amount to anything. Ever. Maybe I'm just lucky but I'm not feeling that so much now. And I have a feeling it's a game wide change.

Peak hours lately is still struggling in the mid 30s range. I don't know if it's at all related (I think it is) but when the gladiator PCs thing first came out the population jumped up to a more positive high 40s - low 50s area. And it's things like this that can help boost numbers to a healthier figure. I've never felt that voting really, truly amounted to much. Of course we want new blood but without a doubt retention is better than adding new players who might wind up quitting in a week anyway. And I actually think there's a good host of staff members currently with the notion of retention in mind. I'll also add that the fact that this thread hasn't been locked despite harsh statements made is a very good sign!

[Asche]

you're all fucking terrible.

You bitch about a staff member speaking about the playerbase in this fashion and then go ahead and post almost exactly the same sentiment. Proof anyone can have a bad day.

The problem isn't a one-time occurrence of a staff exploding. The problem is a long-term, ongoing policy of censorship and policing of any evidence things may be going wrong in the game, and a consistent, unbroken streak of never fucking apologizing. You know what adults do when they lash out? They apologize. They make amends. Or at the very least, they explain their motivations behind why. Its not even fucking difficult, if you don't have some perceived absolute hierarchy you need to preserve. 'We fucked up, we'll try to do better in the future.' You say its a small and insignificant occurrence, I say its been about five years since I joined this game, and I've never once seen any hint of reflection from the part of any staff. Communication is essential to every relationship, and even if you believe the incidents involved to be insignificant, the overwhelming principle behind their actions is blatantly clear to anyone who has played this game for more than five seconds.

I could give less than a shit about who finds me 'disgusting'. I care quite a lot about censorship and am genuinely pissed off by feigned, false discussion.

[Kialae]

https://media.giphy.com/media/LRVnPYqM8DLag/giphy.gif

[chrisdcoulombe]

I take frequent long breaks from the Gdb and have taken a few from the game.  The game is still as immersive as ever.   I don't know that it has to be as dramatic as it gets made out to be.   

And the discord seems to be more chill.  Probably cause the immediate responses and that everything isn't stuck there forever for everyone to pick apart. 

We should all give each other the benefit of the doubt.   We are all only human after all.   

[Armaddict]

It's because they banned me from discord.  Of course it's more chill! XD

[John]

The problem is a long-term, ongoing policy of censorship and policing of any evidence things may be going wrong in the game

The only posts that have been edited were the ones made by the staff member who edited them himself. Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to edit their own posts?

a consistent, unbroken streak of never fucking apologizing

If you feel like your owed an apology, raise a ticket with staff and talk to them. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about and are just spewing forth venom because, hey, it's the GDB and that's what people do here.

I think I'm done with this thread. I just wanted to correct the completely false information I quoted above.

If you were upset or affected by the recent outburst, don't chuck a tantrum on the GDB (I think there's been enough of that recently). Don't get on your high horse and proclaim the end is nigh all because of staff. Reach out to staff and you might be surprised by the response you get (of course, reach out to staff in the same venom you use on the GDB and I won't be surprised if the reaction you get isn't a positive one. Wonder why that might be).

[John]

One more point: I was upset by at least one of the posts. I reached out to staff. I talked with them. I then wasn't upset, I accepted their response as a result and so moved on.

The worst thing people can do is harp on about incidents where staff showed they aren't perfect. Mature adults don't bitch and moan constantly about how bad someone is. They reach out and speak with people and voice their concerns and engage in a dialogue. For the past week nothing has been worse for the game then people jumping on this bandwagon to beat up staff and say how awful they all are. Yes. A staff member lost their cool and lashed out. It happened within the span of a few hours and then nothing more. As bad as that lashing out might have been, it pales in comparison with the amount of venom some people have spewed forth while using the staff member's behaviour as an excuse for their venom.

Now I'm done. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

[Kalden]

A necessary quality for good leadership, especially over a community like this, is a thick skin. Cool, calm, collected.

With that said, many people, including myself, have a short temper, and I don't think it's something to be ashamed about. I've been editing Wikipedia on and off for about a decade, and so I know that getting into debates on there will trigger my temper like nothing else. I have and still do post rants, which is why I actively avoid heated areas.

The collective group of staff should learn lessons from this about how they appoint/elect their leaders. I could tell from my limited interactions with this staffer that keeping cool was a struggle.

Also, I've been reading this book Just Mercy lately which is a good reminder that everyone makes mistakes...

[Asche]

apologizing

If you feel like your owed an apology, raise a ticket with staff and talk to them. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about and are just spewing forth venom because, hey, it's the GDB and that's what people do here.

I think I'm done with this thread. I just wanted to correct the completely false information I quoted above.

If you were upset or affected by the recent outburst, don't chuck a tantrum on the GDB (I think there's been enough of that recently). Don't get on your high horse and proclaim the end is nigh all because of staff. Reach out to staff and you might be surprised by the response you get (of course, reach out to staff in the same venom you use on the GDB and I won't be surprised if the reaction you get isn't a positive one. Wonder why that might be).
[/quote]

What the actual fuck are you even typing, man? How does 'staff has literally never accepted responsibility for anything negative' get countered by 'WELL YOU DIDN'T REACH OUT TO THEM PERSONALLY FOR A PERSONAL APOLOGY!' I don't fucking want one. I wasn't personally attacked, anymore than me probably being under the 'disgusting' category. I'm talking weather and you're talking rain. Even if I did feel personally offended, personal contact would have exactly one result, and thats a 'I'm sorry you feel that way' response with no opportunity to respond or engage further without adding a new ticket, possibly with a new staff responding. Its an inelegant and largely ineffectual system that you'd rather I'd use because its not public. Except, I want my discontent public.

You can call 'tantrum' or whatever you want to downplay it as childish, but I see a problem, I want it addressed. And if you think that thread I opened months back would have gotten me anything but a ban if it wasn't public, you're lying to yourself. We're well past the stage of one on one. I'm sure your -feelings- matter as much to me as mine do to you. That is to say, not enough to stop me from speaking out. My concerns lie more in the direction of trends, leadership and its relationship to the playerbase as a whole. You're telling me to access them personally for a little one on one. That is not fucking useful. You can shove your tone policing right where you got it from. We got months of that from our last 'public' staff right before he erupted, and guess what? IT WENT FUCKING NOWHERE THEN TOO. I'd ask for staff to send us someone direct and blunt, but I don't think they have one.