The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just a friendly reminded that even though OOC events can leave a bad taste in your mouth and, if you're like me you may have even considered just giving up on the game.

But after some thought it's really just more of the same. There's always drama on the GDB and sometimes that drama involves staff. At the end of the day the game is the same. My character and his situations have not changed and neither has yours.

When staff makes decisions about players or the GDB, I sometimes find myself disagreeing. When it comes to what they do as storytellers, content craters, coders, all of that shit? I pretty much always agree with it.

After all the whole point of the game is to escape reality and things like the GDB. So I hope ya'll keep playing, because what I said here is still true. It's still a great time to be playing the game.

[Melkor]

+1

[John]

I'd definitely like to second RGS on this. My interactions with staff have always been positive and constructive in game and in character reports. The only time where I've bumped up against staff is on the GDB. I would hate to see anyone quit the game over some GDB tiff.

Remember: Staff are almost always (I think always from the year 2002 onwards) from the playerbase. As a playerbase we get into GDB fights over things and things blow up and people ragequit for 5 minutes and then come back. Given this is the behaviour of the playerbase, it was only a matter of time before it happened with a staff member. Don't let some internet fight from one day ruin your enjoyment of the game. Worst case scenario, simply stop posting on the GDB and enjoy the game with no regard to what happens on the GDB.

Our community gets passionate. The fact that passion flares up should not be reason to leave the game.

[Jihelu]

I worry about the impression it can give. New members don't know "oh people hate the GDB".

[najdorf]

there is probably no game in the world where forum content + time spent is enormous and bigger than the game itself. even blizzard forums worldwide is 10x smaller than number of posts here. guess people love the drama here, and gdb is MCB  too

[Rokal]

I worry about the impression it can give. New members don't know "oh people hate the GDB".

This. Often times these days peoples first impressions of a community aren't the games themselves, but the forums and other forms of interaction outside the game.

[sleepyhead]

Just makes me sad. I spend so much time and energy trying to get my boyfriend (hylomorphic) to play with me. I should know better than to talk to him about whatever GDB drama I notice but I talk to him about everything (except IC stuff since he started playing, of course.) I always end up mentioning it and he always ends up reading it and then he always thinks "is this a place I really want to play?" And all my effort to get him to play the game is undone and it's pretty much my fault for dragging him into the melodramatic world that is the GDB. And if he feels so discouraged he loses the will to play, it's sadly likely he isn't the only one.

This time I got him worked up enough about the topics in question that he actually posted for the first time and it did not go well...at all. For those of us who have been playing a long time, it's easy enough to look at all the recent nastiness and think it's an aberration and it doesn't matter, but for new players it may be all they know.

That's why it makes me so sad. I know everyone has bad days and I'm sorry for anything I did to work anyone up or hurt them when they were at their tipping point. I feel like some damage has been done now and I'm not sure what to say to make it better. The game is the game, and it's true, anyone can enjoy it despite whatever happens here, but...I'm just rambling because it's 4 AM, I guess.

[BadSkeelz]

Opinions and actions on the GDB are reflected in the account tool and the MUD itself. There is a direct correlation.

No deal.

[Inks]

Skeelz is correct here. There is a direct correlation through game and account tool actions.

I have a lot of hope and get a lot of enjoyment from the game. I obviously care a lot to be posting here. Certain attitudes need to change. There is a reason we lose experienced, quality players.

[valeria]

I'm always happier as a player when I'm having minimal interaction with the GDB.  For a good long time I was a player moderator and I think that gave me a lot of personal dissatisfaction.  My advice is to mostly ignore the GDB.  Disclaimer: this is jaded veteran who has been burned by the GDB advice.

And I imagine that Skeelz is right that things do cross over.  Even excluding possible sourness from bad interactions (staff are only human), if you're a bullish argumentative person on the GDB, that's probably your personality everywhere.  Since staff relationships require collaboration and trust, the nature of your relationship with staff on the GDB is probably going to cross over.

[Dar]

The problem with this is that these GDB expressions are sometimes indirect, or direct, or delayed expressions on decisions and actions done within the game's administration.

To use a highly unfair, but still accurate-ish comparison. Imagine a restaurant. It literally has 'the' best food in town. What's better, it's absolutely free. You can just come in, sit down, and enjoy the most awesome of meals you've ever had in your life without paying a single dime. And things are good! You visit the place, you eat, you move on. The staff is courteous to you and all in all, you dont even really spend much of your attention at staff. You just pick up what's offered on the menu and eat it. Life is good.

Then you find out, that staff is sometimes not so courteous. Perhaps they discriminate against some specific people. Not you. no no, you're okey. But somebody else. And the basic observation shows no good reason for it happening, but it is, it is happening, it is unfair, but ... you're not the victim of it. Soo, oh well. The food is still good and you eat it.

Then the restaurant's manager would come down, sit down on one of the tables and starts talking about Trump. It's a discussion, people are free to voice their opinion. Buuut, certain people, considering some previous incidents are a little leery about this discussion. They worry that if they express an anti-trump opinions, they will be banned from the restaurant. What's worse, is that it turns out that a good percentage of people in this discussion are not Trump sympathizers at all, which pretty soon turns into a matter that the manager statements arent really agreed on by a majority. Some of that majority is quiet, some indifferent, some loud. Finally the Manager fumes out and declares that since people think that they will be thrown out of the restaurant for not being Trump sympathizers, then one month from now, anyone who speaks ill of trump will be thrown out.

... Mkay. Unfair? Yes. Did it in any way hurt you? No. all in all, you're indifferent to politics as whole. You never spoke for Trump, or against. But the food is still good!

As time passes. The food continues to be good. But a certain percentage of the people get ... victimized. For their opinions, for their appearances, for their dogged resolution to call bullshit on other exercises of unfairness, or ... for cussing at people, making a mess, and being idjits.  Some of that victimizing is fair, but a growing amount of it is ... not.  At some point, you ... should ... realize that consuming the food given makes you a quiet 'supporter' of these actions. By continuing to use the restaurant, by enjoying it's food, by enjoying the fact that you are not yet the victim of a rather unpredictable tumult of manager's emotions, you ... support that manager's rush and unfair actions towards some other fellow human being. And that time, it is your decision. The food is good. And you're not influenced by that manager in any way. But others are. What do you do? That restaurant owes you nothing. You do not pay. Do you continue enjoying their food?

[Miradus]

That's a stretch, Dar, if you're saying we're complicit in bad behavior if we continue to play Armageddon.

Look, I warned Nergal the best way to have that discussion was not to have that discussion. He was a bit snarky, but nobody banned me. Nobody took away karma. Nobody animated a giant braxat to rush out of the desert to kill me. We just didn't agree.

These aren't crimes against humanity here. It's some people being rude and unjust on the internet centered around a free video game. Let's try and keep that in perspective. If the treatment I receive gets bad enough, I'll leave. I expect the absolute same out of everyone else.

The game IS better without the GDB, but I have to read the GDB to understand what's going on. There is no in-game, OOC news service which would tell me not to use the word necker when I logged in. No OOC announcements that get shot to me over the telnet port. If I want to know about code changes, policy changes, or sometimes even upcoming RPTs I might want to attend, I have to come to the GDB.

[Dar]

These aren't crimes against humanity here. It's some people being rude and unjust on the internet centered around a free video game. Let's try and keep that in perspective. If the treatment I receive gets bad enough, I'll leave. I expect the absolute same out of everyone else.

And there is where the problem is.



This is a common thing in any society. This is what's going on in Russia right now. The standard of living is relatively high for many. And as long as it remains high, so what if the state is actively imprisoning somebody 'else' without a trial. And since majority doesnt care, the state has no incentive in checking itself and starting to obey constitution. Only if a majority, even those who are in general happy and are unmolested, would walk out and demand changes, would the state attempt to correct itself. But until that happens. Until everyone remain concerned only with themselves, everything continues as it was.  This is happening in almost any society. Big and small. From a country, to a company, to a tiny MUD community.

[Miradus]

It speaks well of you that you feel this way. But I just don't try to change the world. Chalk it up to age or laziness or just that I'm simply not that good of a human being.

I follow the Goethe principle on this and sweep my own doorstep.

I'm here to play a game. My activism ends when I pick up my laptop and sit in my comfy chair.

[Dar]

A perfectly valid stance. It's a choice that each player makes.

We're the game's DMs by some measure of player consensus (in that players agree to play the game under the staff chosen from among the playerbase).

PS:
Heh. I just realized my signature was edited out.
Might've been a bug in retrospect. I'll request about it.

[Kalden]

Read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_fear to understand the culture of ArmageddonMUD right now.

It's really important that leadership have thick skin.

To echo Dar's feelings, one of the very few people I've come to know OOC from Armageddon, who seemed rather solid and low drama, was banned back in February on suspicion of posting to the shadow board, after playing 18 years on and off. According to him (don't see why he would lie to me privately), he did have an account, but it wasn't the person they thought, and he had actually posted comments defending staff on the shadow board. He posted the story on the shadow board. It was rather sad to hear and I thought about questioning it but of course it "isn't my place" to question injustice. I'm just another lowly player, trying to avoid being banned myself. Asking for transparency in bans would put a target on me as a subversive...

I started playing in 2003 with several breaks lasting years in between, but I guess I never felt this type of culture before. With that said, I missed the notorious years of Nyr.

[John]

My interaction with staff on the GDB has never crossed over to the report tool or in game.

[EDITED TO remove emotional rubbish by John]

[Dar]

Well. Anyway. Shit happens. Emotions flare up. We're all guilty of that.

[Inks]

Wow Dar, just read your comparison. Was great.

[FantasyWriter]

To back up the topic of this thread, much of this is why I left cold turkey last year for the first time in over a decade.
They way yesterday's discussion (or was it the day before?) on "Necker" degraded and went over a cliff faster than an argosy off the shield wall, was a big reminder of the reasons I left after the way the way the magick nerf happened, was handled, and the related GDB fallout after.

I've believed for over half a decade that the more time spent participating in GDB discussions is inversely proportional to how much you enjoy your time in Zalanthas.  I've personally had great interactions with the game staff as far as the GAME is concerned for eleven years now except for one Clan Staffer on one Sponsored Role who constantly gave me conflicting instructions/suggestions/judgments, and that pretty much turned me off of ever playing a sponsored role again, but that was ONE thing in over a decade. That's awesome.

Now, the GDB... It's a minefield.  As has been said many times, the GDB community is only a small part of the people who play the game, but they are the ones who are passionate enough about the game to want to try to improve its perceived flaws and and hold on to what they perceive as its strengths.  Some of us have traveled the county/world to meet one another and share our experiences and our lives with one another.  We know each others children and spouses as well as if we were next door neighbors or long sundered high-school friends.  This community has brought people together in marriage, and broken marriages up, we've celebrated births together, and we've come together to mourn the death of players and their loved ones.  Friends have been made and friends have become hated over seemingly stupid and meaningless things to people who don't understand have much passion some of us have or had for a game so old and rich in culture that there are parts of the game that no one even remembers what they were or who (player, character, or tribe) made them.  I say all that for this reason... the GDB brings out the best of us and the best in us players, staff included.  The balance of that is that it also lays the worst of us our stripped naked for all to see.  I don't think this is ever something that can be fixxed, or perhaps even that should.  You can't have Ying without Yang unless it's simply a mask on the monster.

I can promise you this. Ignore the GDB for a month or two and your enjoyment of the game will probably sky rocket.  Not everyone that doesn't participate even in clan boards do it out of laziness or because they're new.  Most probably do it because they believe the GDB just isn't worth their enjoyment of the game.

[Dresan]

There doesn't seem to be a better thread to express this so I'll just use this one. My biggest concern with yesterday's thread is that, for better or worse a change was implemented that some people have issue with. The vocabulary is jarring but it is also prevelant, everyone from staff to players both female and male use those words routinely.

Therefore it isn't a small change and that makes me worried of a potential backlash.

I don't want to see another tuluki player exodus and the consequencial fallout of that again especially as I feel the game hasn't quite yet recovered from that yet. 

I agree that ignoring the GDB is good advice, but at the same time, I ignored it over the last few days and the threads to these discussions already got locked.

[Riev]

I've very rarely found someone whose personality on the GDB has been something that I felt bled over into the game. Not that it DOESN'T happen, but there hasn't seemed to be a correlation with "vocal and obstinate on the GDB" and "is a nightmare to play with in game".

However, from a staff view, I'm certain there are those whose GDB actions have led to game-related issues (being banned for comments, and not being able to play, for example). I once asked Nyr if he S'd and D's on the way back from an absence and got a GDB ban for it, but my PC wasn't banned from playing. When you get banned from the game, it doesn't always mean you're banned from the GDB initially, either.

So long as we keep as much distance from the two as we can, the better. I don't particularly agree or disagree with recent changes. Even the Tuluk change, while still painful, has not stopped me from playing or enjoying the game. But I'd like to mention one thing:

Staff used to be these all powerful overlords. You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned. Those staff handed the reins to other staff they had hired, who handed it down to other staff that they had hired, through the playerbase. I think sometimes we want to believe that the staff are some sort of democracy, that they're of the people for the people. They own the game, they pay for the game, and without us they'd just have less volunteer work to do during the week.

Tl;DR - Play the game. Don't play the GDB.

[burble]

Running away from the GDB and hiding doesn't solve anything. If anything you give a stronger voice to the irrationally belligerent who drown out everyone else with their constant posting. 

Unfortunately, I find the GDB is necessary. I've found answers that the help files weren't good at on the GBD. Wouldn't know how the new bandage or brew stuff works without the GDB. Things like making tea and other obscure commands - found out through the GDB. Upcoming code or world changes, talked about on the GDB.

That was about the fifth thread over the years where I was thinking of posting, walk away, think some more, maybe the next day finally start writing and boom find out it's locked.

The problem is simple. You are allowing the wrong people to dominate the discussions. They have too much mental baggage that they bring to every thread and they are interested in fighting, not solving. You want more voices, not less.

I've sent it in before and say it here.
Make threads where you want feedback only allow 1 post per member. You'll get more variety of feedback, better thought out feedback and, maybe, even solutions.

[Large Hero]

The problem is simple. You are allowing the wrong people to dominate the discussions. They have too much mental baggage that they bring to every thread and they are interested in fighting, not solving. You want more voices, not less.

I've sent it in before and say it here.
Make threads where you want feedback only allow 1 post per member. You'll get more variety of feedback, better thought out feedback and, maybe, even solutions.

This right here. This.

We have people undermining the discussion (either intentionally or not) and turning it toxic, only to then get upset when the tainted discussion leads to a bad result.

One post per explicitly-designated Discussion thread may help limit this and may encourage more thoughtful posts.

[Armaddict]

Staff used to be these all powerful overlords. You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

Not exactly true.  I've never suffered any ban or temp-ban in any Armageddon related medium until within the past 10 months.  I have been force stored twice, only once in regard to OOC behavior.  I've had a couple topics removed, with a coinciding email explaining why that topic was not suitable for the GDB.  However, staff participation in threads in the past was entirely minimal.  They were a lot more content to watch players duke it out over a topic and take what they wanted out of it without ever saying a thing.

The problem is simple. You are allowing the wrong people to dominate the discussions. They have too much mental baggage that they bring to every thread and they are interested in fighting, not solving. You want more voices, not less.

I think that opinion is under the assumption that debates on topics never have counterpoints to points that are trying to made.  If I have an hour of free time, and someone with a different opinion than my own has an hour of free time, we can end up counter-posting each other 4 times in that hour, giving the appearance of 'dominating' the discussion when really it's just responding to each other.  That's...entirely the point of a discussion in the first place.

Sometimes, it's less about persuading people or demanding to be right, and more about pointing out that someone is repeatedly trying to push their point by misrepresenting yours.  Either that or they demonstrate a lack of understanding of what your post was, which in any rational discourse pretty much requires a response of clarification.

Quite frankly, if I'm the one you guys view as 'toxic', then I really can't help you change that by posting less.  I make jabs at things that are contrary to previous courses of action to show inconsistency, I write out admittedly meandering analogies and thought processes to support an idea I'm trying to present, and if you take that as hostile to your idea it has less to do with what I'm saying and more to do with how you're reading it.  I've said it before; this is the only community I'm involved in (and I staff on 2, but they are smaller IRC roleplaying games) where I'm considered aggressive.

One post per explicitly-designated Discussion thread may help limit this and may encourage more thoughtful posts.

I had actually thought about this the other day, though the limit of 1 is pretty inhibiting for actual discussion and kind of requires you to assume what problems people have with your viewpoint rather than letting them voice it.  If you want a discussion board, people need to be able to actually talk to each other, even if you reading it think it's talking at instead of talking to.


The GDB may be a great place to ignore for people who feel entrenched in their way to play the game.  But it's also a treasure trove of great viewpoints on how to see the game world and how to fit into it better.  That was the original intent of it, and that's how it served for a good long time.  The rising toxicity of it is because there are a lot more people dissatisfied with parts of it than previously, likely while also being far more impassioned about it.  I don't pack my bags and move to an echo chamber over on the shadowboard because that community seems to delight in shortcomings and cheer on anything that makes the game move towards failure (in their perception).  I argue over here because I want the game to succeed.  And I criticize actions here because I find them worthy of criticism, and the age old promise that critiques sent privately will be dealt with has, as demonstrated, not changed anything.

[nessalin]

You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

This has literally never happened.

[Riev]

You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

This has literally never happened.

I really need a /sarcasm button.

No, its never actually happened, I'm admitting it. But the idea was always there, that staff were the Overlords by name and reputation. Nobody would call Nessalin/You out on anything just because of respect and fear. Sort of how if the Nessalin Nebula was ever overhead, and you wished up, Bad Things (tm) happened.

Staff have a rough job, man. And they volunteer for it. And we, who do not volunteer for it, expect those that do to understand and accept the shitty attitudes we have.

There's way too much of a veil on what staff do, are working on, and availability. Nergal has a special place in my heart, because they make really good Space Battleships, but one person saying "no" is a rough position. And lets face it, as players, we need to be told no A LOT.

[FantasyWriter]

I would not ever bother to comment or probably even read a "discussion" where I could not defend a my argument, or expect someone else to defend theirs.  Also discussions have changed my mind before as they went on.  I would say anything about anything were I not able to change my public opinion on it.

[Large Hero]

If I have an hour of free time, and someone with a different opinion than my own has an hour of free time, we can end up counter-posting each other 4 times in that hour, giving the appearance of 'dominating' the discussion when really it's just responding to each other.  That's...entirely the point of a discussion in the first place.

It may be the point of the discussion Person A is having with Person B.

It is likely not, however, the point of the larger discussion the thread was created for.

Two people repeatedly arguing a minor point often does change the character and scope of a thread. It can easily become a derail. It should often be confined to private messages to avoid this. However, there's a lot of tunnel vision. People get attached to their point, and to being right, or being perceived to be right, and they value fighting that battle publicly over prioritizing the discussion the thread was created for.

A "one post per thread" in certain discussion threads would help to prevent certain individuals, or certain conflicts, drowning out the larger discussion with walls of text.

In this hypothetical one post per thread situation, if one person makes a post, and it's later misconstrued or attacked...that isn't the end of the world. The original post, and the responses to it, can stand on their own merits, and each reader can make their own decision.

Ideally, back and forth with clarifications is of course superior to "one post." However, I think this board has a real problem with a few individuals dominating discussions and strongly coloring the character of those discussions before others can post even one time.

I'd gladly trade the ability to clarify in order to let less-vocal posters have a larger share of the discussion pie.

edit: I'll add that I recognize the irony in my posting a 2nd time in this thread to defend burble's idea.

[stark]

The game world and the GDB both have outlined, implied, coded, and often enforced hierarchies. The owners/staff have left open a clear invitation to anyone wishing to apply to play in the reality they are currently responsible for. Often, they'll ask for player input to try to make things more interesting for that game world or even the GDB, however, that's no license to forget that we are here as guests. If you aren't able to fit into the hierarchies, you can petition the attention of staff for considerations, and they might be granted or they might not, there might even be an offer of an explanation. There is no responsibility of the staff to entertain any player or even the entire player base. We as a player base have to decide, each of us, whether we can fit into the world the way it exists at the time the choice is open. We can say no, and go somewhere else. We can try back later and see if something creative sparks us to try again, or maybe our perceptions might have changed and we can make that work for us. If not, it just is. So we decide.

Personal responsibility means that we take responsibility for our actions, or lack of actions. Blame solves nothing. I personally dislike aspects of the game and refuse to be party to those aspects. I expect many people feel the same. If someone tries to force me into a situation, (and believe me, that has happened) that I absolutely refuse to partake in, my character will likely endeavor to not play. I'm freed by choosing to play a different role and trying something different. The GDB is only a little different, but mostly it's full of opinions of people that are just beings here to play together. They don't all agree on everything, heck, they aren't even all remotely similar, but the one thing we all have in common is we are here to play the game. By doing so, we agree to the hierarchy, or to the appeal process of it, but we do give our agreement.

I'm reminded that often, MUDding is a distraction from RL, yet it reflects what is going on around us all. Spending time blaming others for how you feel or how you react to things isn't going to solve anything. If you have a feeling, and it's a strong feeling, and you feel it's a feeling you've felt before that has hurt or bothered you, something you feel strongly about, shut the game and the computer off and figure out where that feeling came from, what brings it out, and when was the first time you felt it. You'll find you had that feeling long before you were experiencing it in the game or on the GDB. Chances are, you've felt it several times before.

I'm not a shrink, certainly not perfect, and this is just my opinion. I haven't always agreed with the rules, but I've agreed TO them. It's like a shiny nickel that allows me to ride the ride.

There's been a lot of evolution of the game, players, and staff in the last fifteen-twenty years. Plots have been foiled, pulled off, put off, forgotten, etc. I've built MUDs, run MUDs, and played MUDs. It's time consuming and often infuriatingly thankless. Even just putting together something so simple as a byn outing, takes a lot out of players, without even considering staff. You can't expect the MUD to fulfill your life expectations, so if you want happiness, go make happiness, and then come back and MUD while you are happy.

[HavokBlue]

One time I spoke the name "Nessalin" aloud. My fields grew fallow and a plague of locusts darkened the sky and my family was blighted for seven times seven generations.


On a more constructive note, I think we can avoid a lot of drama if we assume people who disagree with us are disagreeing not out of some enmity toward us, but rather because they also care about the game and maybe have different ideas about what they think is best for it.

[Jihelu]

This one time I was talking in TS and I mentioned Rath in passing conversation.
He joined and began belligerently swearing at me in some language that I think represents British English and wouldn't stop until I left the channel. I had a friend in the channel and he messaged me on skype saying he didn't stop screaming till three hours later.

I don't know where I'm going with this meme but it's sarcasm.

[Kialae]

You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

This has literally never happened.

I really need a /sarcasm button.

No, its never actually happened, I'm admitting it. But the idea was always there, that staff were the Overlords by name and reputation. Nobody would call Nessalin/You out on anything just because of respect and fear. Sort of how if the Nessalin Nebula was ever overhead, and you wished up, Bad Things (tm) happened.

Staff have a rough job, man. And they volunteer for it. And we, who do not volunteer for it, expect those that do to understand and accept the shitty attitudes we have.

There's way too much of a veil on what staff do, are working on, and availability. Nergal has a special place in my heart, because they make really good Space Battleships, but one person saying "no" is a rough position. And lets face it, as players, we need to be told no A LOT.

I once wished up and said a dumb joke or something on like my second character ever or something, and Nessalin banned me from using the wish command indefinitely. I had to ask to get it fixed once I learned how importantly I needed it.

[John]

I've had Nessalin go cranky at me once or twice. However it was because I had discovered a command that when supplier with a particular argument caused the game to crash. He only banned me after the second time and only long enough to email me to stop. This is once back in 2002 or 2003. That's a pretty good track run and also completely umderstamdable.

.as I said before, I have never had a bad experience with staff in game or through the request tool. I can also day the only time I did get upset by a run in with staff on the GDB and raised it to them through the request tool, the response was completely reasonable and everything got cleared up.

[Riev]

I've had Nessalin go cranky at me once or twice. However it was because I had discovered a command that when supplier with a particular argument caused the game to crash. He only banned me after the second time and only long enough to email me to stop. This is once back in 2002 or 2003. That's a pretty good track run and also completely umderstamdable.

.as I said before, I have never had a bad experience with staff in game or through the request tool. I can also day the only time I did get upset by a run in with staff on the GDB and raised it to them through the request tool, the response was completely reasonable and everything got cleared up.

Your Experience May Vary. I'm still salty about a particular experience where I THOUGHT I was going to get banned because I still had the password to some Sponsored Role documents, and had been accessing them when another roll call came up to see if I was inspired. This was before the Request Tool, and was very surprising.

But here I am, like six years later, still playing. And I even said His Name on the GDB and didn't get Imm-Slayed, so... you know. Win win!

[Asche]

Oh, hey. A staff went nuclear and all evidence of it was actively censored with criticism or discussion resulting in locked threads, and the only way to know what the fuck is going on if you missed it is to visit the shadow board, and no hint of an apology will be offered from any party with a hint of power to their online name. Who could have seen that coming? The Game is the Game, and the GDB is the GDB, and they're all dying of the same fucking disease.

[John]

If you were targeted or impacted by what was said, then you could reach out to staff via the request tool and speak to them about it. Typically talking to people is more helpful than ranting on the GDB. I should know. I've done my fair share of ranting.

[Asche]

Me? Nah, no more impacted than in the general sense of watching one of my favorite games continue its steady decline into a death spiral. You nerds get on my nerves. All day, every day, passive aggression, a complete lack of culpability, and genuinely either a lack of foresight to see the outcomes of your actions, or a lack of caring. I tried nice. I tried cynical and logical. I tried a basic appeal to common fucking decency. I think I just need to accept that the common thread I've talked about uniting players and staff is that you're all fucking terrible. This game's got two years tops before it's playerbase drops to the teens, if not the single digits, active at any given time. Then we can all sneer smugly from atop the ash pile.

[John]

you're all fucking terrible.

You bitch about a staff member speaking about the playerbase in this fashion and then go ahead and post almost exactly the same sentiment. Proof anyone can have a bad day.

[FantasyWriter]

Me? Nah, no more impacted than in the general sense of watching one of my favorite games continue its steady decline into a death spiral. You nerds get on my nerves. All day, every day, passive aggression, a complete lack of culpability, and genuinely either a lack of foresight to see the outcomes of your actions, or a lack of caring. I tried nice. I tried cynical and logical. I tried a basic appeal to common fucking decency. I think I just need to accept that the common thread I've talked about uniting players and staff is that you're all fucking terrible. This game's got two years tops before it's playerbase drops to the teens, if not the single digits, active at any given time. Then we can all sneer smugly from atop the ash pile.

Another perfect example of why ignoring the GDB can be a good thing if your enjoyment of the game is/has been declining.

[Patuk]

Some people get permabanned for their bad days. Others get sympathy threads. I sure wonder why.

[ghanima]

There have been times where I thought the same, that in another year or two peak hours of play will only ever reach the high teens. Another year after that and then it slowly just fizzles out and dies. And maybe this is the inevitable future of all MUDs, though I guess that's a separate topic. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think that this is the case right now with Arm and won't be even in two years ahead.

I believe there have been some serious missteps that took its toll on the population. And it wasn't all that long ago where the game seemed to suffer from this all prevailing culture of negativity. I'm not going to bother saying who the responsible parties were back then but the atmosphere I'm playing in now has really taken a turn for the better. I can't stress that enough. Where once the attitude I was faced with was constant reminders of what I can not do, now suddenly I am met repeatedly with staff who are helping to empower my characters and see their ambitions and objectives realized. And without going into detail I've received the fruits of my labor several times already. It's good that the game is in hard mode but there was a point where it was just plain impossible mode with constant reminders that you are just a cog in the wheel and don't expect your character to amount to anything. Ever. Maybe I'm just lucky but I'm not feeling that so much now. And I have a feeling it's a game wide change.

Peak hours lately is still struggling in the mid 30s range. I don't know if it's at all related (I think it is) but when the gladiator PCs thing first came out the population jumped up to a more positive high 40s - low 50s area. And it's things like this that can help boost numbers to a healthier figure. I've never felt that voting really, truly amounted to much. Of course we want new blood but without a doubt retention is better than adding new players who might wind up quitting in a week anyway. And I actually think there's a good host of staff members currently with the notion of retention in mind. I'll also add that the fact that this thread hasn't been locked despite harsh statements made is a very good sign!

[Asche]

you're all fucking terrible.

You bitch about a staff member speaking about the playerbase in this fashion and then go ahead and post almost exactly the same sentiment. Proof anyone can have a bad day.

The problem isn't a one-time occurrence of a staff exploding. The problem is a long-term, ongoing policy of censorship and policing of any evidence things may be going wrong in the game, and a consistent, unbroken streak of never fucking apologizing. You know what adults do when they lash out? They apologize. They make amends. Or at the very least, they explain their motivations behind why. Its not even fucking difficult, if you don't have some perceived absolute hierarchy you need to preserve. 'We fucked up, we'll try to do better in the future.' You say its a small and insignificant occurrence, I say its been about five years since I joined this game, and I've never once seen any hint of reflection from the part of any staff. Communication is essential to every relationship, and even if you believe the incidents involved to be insignificant, the overwhelming principle behind their actions is blatantly clear to anyone who has played this game for more than five seconds.

I could give less than a shit about who finds me 'disgusting'. I care quite a lot about censorship and am genuinely pissed off by feigned, false discussion.

[Kialae]

https://media.giphy.com/media/LRVnPYqM8DLag/giphy.gif

[chrisdcoulombe]

I take frequent long breaks from the Gdb and have taken a few from the game.  The game is still as immersive as ever.   I don't know that it has to be as dramatic as it gets made out to be.   

And the discord seems to be more chill.  Probably cause the immediate responses and that everything isn't stuck there forever for everyone to pick apart. 

We should all give each other the benefit of the doubt.   We are all only human after all.   

[Armaddict]

It's because they banned me from discord.  Of course it's more chill! XD

[John]

The problem is a long-term, ongoing policy of censorship and policing of any evidence things may be going wrong in the game

The only posts that have been edited were the ones made by the staff member who edited them himself. Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to edit their own posts?

a consistent, unbroken streak of never fucking apologizing

If you feel like your owed an apology, raise a ticket with staff and talk to them. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about and are just spewing forth venom because, hey, it's the GDB and that's what people do here.

I think I'm done with this thread. I just wanted to correct the completely false information I quoted above.

If you were upset or affected by the recent outburst, don't chuck a tantrum on the GDB (I think there's been enough of that recently). Don't get on your high horse and proclaim the end is nigh all because of staff. Reach out to staff and you might be surprised by the response you get (of course, reach out to staff in the same venom you use on the GDB and I won't be surprised if the reaction you get isn't a positive one. Wonder why that might be).

[John]

One more point: I was upset by at least one of the posts. I reached out to staff. I talked with them. I then wasn't upset, I accepted their response as a result and so moved on.

The worst thing people can do is harp on about incidents where staff showed they aren't perfect. Mature adults don't bitch and moan constantly about how bad someone is. They reach out and speak with people and voice their concerns and engage in a dialogue. For the past week nothing has been worse for the game then people jumping on this bandwagon to beat up staff and say how awful they all are. Yes. A staff member lost their cool and lashed out. It happened within the span of a few hours and then nothing more. As bad as that lashing out might have been, it pales in comparison with the amount of venom some people have spewed forth while using the staff member's behaviour as an excuse for their venom.

Now I'm done. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

[Kalden]

A necessary quality for good leadership, especially over a community like this, is a thick skin. Cool, calm, collected.

With that said, many people, including myself, have a short temper, and I don't think it's something to be ashamed about. I've been editing Wikipedia on and off for about a decade, and so I know that getting into debates on there will trigger my temper like nothing else. I have and still do post rants, which is why I actively avoid heated areas.

The collective group of staff should learn lessons from this about how they appoint/elect their leaders. I could tell from my limited interactions with this staffer that keeping cool was a struggle.

Also, I've been reading this book Just Mercy lately which is a good reminder that everyone makes mistakes...

[Asche]

apologizing

If you feel like your owed an apology, raise a ticket with staff and talk to them. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about and are just spewing forth venom because, hey, it's the GDB and that's what people do here.

I think I'm done with this thread. I just wanted to correct the completely false information I quoted above.

If you were upset or affected by the recent outburst, don't chuck a tantrum on the GDB (I think there's been enough of that recently). Don't get on your high horse and proclaim the end is nigh all because of staff. Reach out to staff and you might be surprised by the response you get (of course, reach out to staff in the same venom you use on the GDB and I won't be surprised if the reaction you get isn't a positive one. Wonder why that might be).
[/quote]

What the actual fuck are you even typing, man? How does 'staff has literally never accepted responsibility for anything negative' get countered by 'WELL YOU DIDN'T REACH OUT TO THEM PERSONALLY FOR A PERSONAL APOLOGY!' I don't fucking want one. I wasn't personally attacked, anymore than me probably being under the 'disgusting' category. I'm talking weather and you're talking rain. Even if I did feel personally offended, personal contact would have exactly one result, and thats a 'I'm sorry you feel that way' response with no opportunity to respond or engage further without adding a new ticket, possibly with a new staff responding. Its an inelegant and largely ineffectual system that you'd rather I'd use because its not public. Except, I want my discontent public.

You can call 'tantrum' or whatever you want to downplay it as childish, but I see a problem, I want it addressed. And if you think that thread I opened months back would have gotten me anything but a ban if it wasn't public, you're lying to yourself. We're well past the stage of one on one. I'm sure your -feelings- matter as much to me as mine do to you. That is to say, not enough to stop me from speaking out. My concerns lie more in the direction of trends, leadership and its relationship to the playerbase as a whole. You're telling me to access them personally for a little one on one. That is not fucking useful. You can shove your tone policing right where you got it from. We got months of that from our last 'public' staff right before he erupted, and guess what? IT WENT FUCKING NOWHERE THEN TOO. I'd ask for staff to send us someone direct and blunt, but I don't think they have one.

[Delirium]

Dude. Chill out. Go for a walk outside. Play some checkers. Pet a kitten.

[Armaddict]

I think he's saying what I was talking about with the 'Just trust us' being valid in the beginning, but when the behavior continues over a long period of time in directions that...frankly...always receive this backlash, you kinda start to lose patience.

In a place where we admittedly don't have much in the way of options to combat this, speaking out more loudly tends to feel like a course of action that needs to be done.

BUT.  Sorry dude, I don't agree that an angry tirade without even an attempt of logically explaining it out for other players to agree with is going to get you much more than getting put in the corner.  For as much as people say I'm confusing, I at least get +1's from the people who read it in a way that lines up with their thinking as well.  Yours is just a hard attacking front with nothing to actually persuade anyone.

[Asche]

I think he's saying what I was talking about with the 'Just trust us' being valid in the beginning, but when the behavior continues over a long period of time in directions that...frankly...always receive this backlash, you kinda start to lose patience.

In a place where we admittedly don't have much in the way of options to combat this, speaking out more loudly tends to feel like a course of action that needs to be done.

BUT.  Sorry dude, I don't agree that an angry tirade without even an attempt of logically explaining it out for other players to agree with is going to get you much more than getting put in the corner.  For as much as people say I'm confusing, I at least get +1's from the people who read it in a way that lines up with their thinking as well.  Yours is just a hard attacking front with nothing to actually persuade anyone.

Heh. Last time I tried persuasive, I ended up with about 14 pages of shitposting and a locked thread. Polite doesn't work on this board. Neither does reason or logic. But hey, you want one? Fine. Calling what happened a bad day is idiotic when its basically the theme of the entire board. Being sneered at, censored and ignored from above is the norm on these boards, and its telling when the most positive person posting in this thread ends their post with "And hey, they haven't locked this thread yet, thats a good sign!". This isn't a bad day, its a POLICY staff has had for the entirety of my time here, and I'm fucking sick of this 'have some sympathy!' bullshit. I'm sure the staff are decent enough people. But they're just objectively terrible leaders and administrators. They don't have the slightest fucking clue on how to engage in PR, or the value of transparency, or really even game design. And that'd be fine, but its coupled with an inability to learn or ask. And everytime its brought up, the same whining karma-fishing 'WELL WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, THEY'RE UNDER ATTACK CONSTANTLY!", as if people disliking staff just popped up out of fucking nowhere with no basis, and wasn't a decades-long backlash of a salt the earth policy so thorough it spawned an entire secondary community. I'm done being nice. If you can't deal with the stress of leading, step down from your position. Its really that simple. Staff and the playerbase are both toxic, but only one group is actively killing the game.

[Kalden]

It seems like they've actually made a lot of effort. There's some funky stuff behind the scenes, which feels like it's kind of about hurt feelings.

Actually, it seems like most of the staffers are fairly low-drama. They churn out some cool coded features and let the players do their thing... which is why it's kind of surprising that it feels like the more sensitive and potentially dramatic ones are at the top. Maybe that's just an appearance, but I generally have had a good experience from requests over the past year.

And by the way, I'm not a fan of the phrase "neckers" either, and I think it was worth raising a discussion about it. Never occurred to me that it might have another meaning, but I just always thought it sounded awkward.

[ghanima]

its telling when the most positive person posting in this thread ends their post with "And hey, they haven't locked this thread yet, thats a good sign!". This isn't a bad day, its a POLICY staff has had for the entirety of my time here, and I'm fucking sick of this 'have some sympathy!' bullshit.

For my part, I'm not telling anyone to have some sympathy. I was just responding to the notion that the game is going to fizzle out and basically die in two years time and why I don't think that's going to happen. My frustration over the past several years was largely with the inability to accomplish anything in game, to even have a goal that wasn't knocked down the moment I'd mention it in a report. I don't feel like that is the all prevailing attitude any longer. But ultimately these things fall down to the individual. It could be that I'm just dealing with the right individuals lately (but I'm more hopeful that there has been a staff wide attempt toward improvement overall and that it's not just "a few good apples").

In the case of this thread being locked, it was usually a specific individual with the tendency to lock them. Maybe the reason it's not locked is because that individual is taking a reported break? I'm just saying, the thread locking thing is not a staff wide behavior (or this thread would have surely been locked already).

Also, I agree that if you essentially insult the entire community, especially if you're in a position of authority, the right thing to do is show a little humility and apologize. Publicly.

And I'll repeat, I think it's a very good sign that this thread has not been locked and Asche has been allowed to voice his opinions. There's a tendency to point the finger at staff but I also assign a good deal of blame to us, the players. Particularly those who are eager to silence Asche for daring to be upset. There are other posters who use swear words quite liberally but have a history of posting only those things that agree with the majority GDB perspective. How is Asche any different and why should he be silenced just because his swear words aren't in agreement with the majority GDB perspective? Let the man vent already, people!

[sleepyhead]

It would be nice for there to be an official apology. I'm not saying it was anyone's fault but the offending staff member's, but when you just let it hang there it reinforces the perception that no matter what happens, staff will always, always cover for their own. That perception, right or wrong, is why a lot of people don't even bother putting in staff complaints, because they see it as pointless at best and asking for trouble at worst, kind of like a commoner complaining to the Templarate that Lord Borsail was mean to them.

I know everyone has bad days, but as Riev said on the thread about slurs, staff's words have more weight than any player's. Some pretty mean things were said and accusations were made that staff know for a fact are false. The statements were edited out, but I'm sure they're still being passed around and discussed, much more so than if the statements were made by a disgruntled player.

I don't really expect to see any kind of public apology, though. I know by now that that's not how staff operate. I'm not even disappointed with that fact, really. I don't hold all staff responsible for what an obviously rogue staff member who is now (at least temporarily) an ex-staff member said. I also don't need to be told that what was said was wrong, hurtful, and damaging. It'd just be nice to have a sign that staff aren't hopelessly tribal--that they aren't just going to say, "Who are you to smear the name of the Noble House Borsail?"

This isn't about whether players are just as bad or if they have it coming because they're so mean and critical. I'm sure it does indeed get old to be blamed for things that aren't your fault, to have your actions picked apart on third party boards, to be subjected to (sometimes petty) complaints just for doing your best to donate your time to the playerbase. But in the end, an angry player has only so much power. Angry players can't force store staff avatars, or dock staff karma, or GDB/game ban staff. The most they can do is flail around impotently on the GDB, in wishes, or in the request tool, and staff have the power to close any request, lock any thread, ban a player from wishing or even using the request tool, or dish out a GDB ban. Players' words, too, only have so much power, because they aren't in a position of authority. Each angry player is just one of hundreds of players, current and former, with one opinion among a veritable Silt Sea of opinions.

A Producer's words, on the other hand, matter. When a Producer talks, people listen, because they were not only chosen to be staff, they were chosen to be the highest ranking level of staff, basically serving as the mouthpiece of the game and the official positions of the staff. That is not to say that every opinion spoken by a Producer is necessarily held by the rest of the staff, and in this case I'm fairly certain this particular opinion isn't. But it still sends an unfortunate message when other staff are unwilling to distance themselves from those remarks, or correct the ones that were false and/or damaging. It makes us all wonder: how bad does it have to get before they're willing to speak out against one of their own? If a Producer publicly calling many of us disgusting and using his position as a GDB mod to sling accusations at us based on our IP addresses isn't enough to inspire staff to speak out against his actions, then what is?

Maybe letting this thread going on without locking it is staff's unspoken compromise. They won't apologize, but letting us talk it out among ourselves is their way of saying we deserve to feel upset. If so, at least that's something.

I don't expect for a moment that my comment will inspire any kind of action. I don't even really know why I'm posting it. Insomnia, I guess, and an inability to shut the fuck up when it would clearly benefit me to do so.

P.S. Yes, I've already put in a staff complaint, and I appreciated the response. Again, I'm not personally upset with any current staff, and I don't hold what Nergal said against any of them whatsoever. I'm just giving my advice on what I think could be done to jump start the healing process and fight that perception of staff as fiercely tribal and protective of their own no matter how egregious the offense.

[Adhira]

This general discussion board, as far as I'm concerned is just that.

My own personal opinion is that you are welcome to post here with your own personal opinions, as long as what you are posting follows the rules of the forum as noted here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

While there are posts in this thread that are technically against the forum rules I'm leaving this to our moderators to make decisions on whether a post should stay.  We have player moderators and I would rather that they use their judgement as to what is appropriate for this community.

As to the tone of the posts - much like in the real world, if someone is approaching me in an aggressive manner and peppering his sentences with swear words then I would choose not to engage.

I don't in general read the gdb unless there is a thread such as the karma discussion which is bringing up interesting points on a project I am involved in. I don't intend to take up the habit of doing so. If you want statements or attention from Producers then you are best served communicating with us through other methods.  If you'd rather just discuss your issues or problems with the Producers or Staff with other players, then the forum will work for you.

Sleepyhead - as I said in reply to your complaint request I'm sorry that there was a post that targeted you and your boyfriend with information that was not factual. That's not ok.  It was removed immediately after I said that the gdb posting was inappropriate. I know this doesn't make you feel any better as the screen shot is out there circulating. I can't do anything about that.

Armageddon staff aren't perfect, we aren't even close. We aren't homogenous, we all have different thoughts, approaches and trigger points. We have tried to instill a level of professionalism on the staff of this game and our responses. We fall down, and fall down often. Much of that can be attributed to the support that we get from each other.

My role is part of a team, and part of a cohort of three that weigh in to make the final decisions, and yes, set the tone for this game. I try very hard to ensure that I do not dominate or put my own personal style or values on others in my team. That issues that are important to them are able to be pursued. We are not always in agreement, but I have always felt that I have an obligation to be supportive.

In this instance we had a staff member who was putting in a lot of time and effort to the mud. He was doing so in a vacuum, having been essentially operating alone for some time. He reacted in a way that was inappropriate. That part is on me. So I apologize for not supporting Nergal, and for not supporting our staff and playerbase when they needed it. I apologize for anyone that was offended, felt targeted or has been driven from the game because of this.

For a personal comment: I have read a comment that the most dramatic staff seem to be at the top of the Armageddon hierarchy. Speaking purely for myself I consider myself in life to mostly be a drama free zone. Sometimes things irk me, sometimes I get annoyed, sometimes I'll make a comment, but in general I like to sort my shit out up front, in person and in the moment. I don't need drama, I don't need to create it or engender it.  I don't care to hold grudges, I'm old enough and have been through enough to understand that life is to short to keep stressing over the little things. You'll find that in my approach to handling issues on the game. I will try and address the concern and then move on. I realize this isn't everyones modus operandi, some of you like to talk it out a lot more than I do.

My intention and my goal right now is to be more active in assisting staff. Making sure that they have the tools and support they need to be able to tell great stories with you all in the game.

I'd love to see the player focus back on the game, but that's your choice. The board is here for discussion, and you are welcome to discuss as you please.

[sleepyhead]

Adhira, thank you. It means a lot that you are willing to say that publicly. It does help. I'm not really that upset anymore and I hope it didn't seem like I was pressing the issue unnecessarily. I think it'll mean a lot to my partner, too.

[Armaddict]

I think the GDB is a great tool.  It's a great place to read about other player's stances on things.  But it comes with a certain acknowledgement:  If there is a place where people are posting their thoughts and ideas on a game where we have (sometimes vastly) different interpretations, it being up and in the open is up for criticism and is exposed to the opinion of others.

If there is one thing Nergal and some other staff members seem sensitive about, it is criticism.  The interpretation of it seems to jump from 0 to harassment in single steps, whether it be from a long post pointing out how something was mishandled, a short post that makes a jab at inconsistency, or a reply to an idea or reply that is made.  And that is simply not conducive to progress in our current platform.

Of all the comments that were made, the most disheartening to me was not 'I find you disgusting'.  It was:

I have tried my best to help the best of players, which I feel is a group that is rapidly shrinking in size.

I've spoken a lot in posts about how current staff's 'vision' with the game is not very inclusive of many player types.  The above is an acknowledgement of that.  Subjected to someone's perspective of what makes 'the best of players', and if that happens to be more social/patient players rather than achievement players or action players or even PvP oriented players, that is a vision based on exclusion rather than inclusion, which is not the Armageddon I know.  The Armageddon I know, and the Armageddon I believe more successful, is the one that promotes roleplay of all kinds and from all places, and it is only those who are actively out to hurt the game that find themselves on the shit end of a stick.

There's been other posts about that same thing.  That same feeling.  Often in different venues, but criticism all around.  Feedback on the direction of this vision.  And rather than absorb that, those people were just lumped into problem players, or 'not the best players' that had staff trying to make the game better for them.

The GDB may not be the most pleasant of places at all times, but it -is- a place to find out what consistently bugs other groups of players, or a place to find out what in the right minds of other players make them think other things are acceptable that you happen to find aberrant.  And as has happened for over a decade, you can drop your criticism of that acceptance, and find out just how other GDB'ers feel about such things.

The idea of asking for feedback, getting upset that people inferred it was a word ban, establishing with a single word response that it wasn't about banning but increasing awareness, then getting mad and doing the ban that insulted you is still just incredibly odd behavior, but not the truly bad point.  The truly bad point is complete non-acceptance of criticism, and completely willful ignorance that your vision is not being well received.

[valeria]

This isn't directly related to Armaddict's most recent post, but it is kind of an offshoot that really ties in with "the game is the game and the gdb is the gdb."  There is a well-established sociologically phenomenon that, generally, the only people who are going to weigh on in an issue are the ones that strongly care one way or the other.  So even if you have ten or twelve people in a GDB thread saying 'do this, do that, this is a problem,' there are some 200+ unique accounts that log on a weekly basis.  While the ten or twelve people might look like a vast majority in a discussion topic, that does not necessarily mean that they are the actual majority, or even close to it.

[FantasyWriter]

Do you think it would be fair to say that the vocal portion -could- be a reasonably accurate depiction of the overall playerbase opinion on an issue?

That is how polls work, and as we saw in the presidential election, some very powerful and influential people seem to think that polling is very dependable (Gospel Truth, even) when this issue comes up, and it absolutely blew a lot of peoples minds to be reminded that polls are just polls.  They -can- be an accurate depiction of a communities beliefs, but they aren't, by nature, that.

[valeria]

Truly randomized polling and surveys are different than self-selection (which is what choosing to participate in any given GDB thread, or a GDB poll, or even the GDB itself is), and non-response (which is another type of bias that affects what I'm talking about).

I'm not saying that X or Y opinion isn't representative.  But what I am saying is that if you're basing a premise on how much GDB gripping has occurred about topic A or B, it's not necessarily or even likely a representation of the player base's opinions as a whole.

[Armaddict]

I'm not saying that X or Y opinion isn't representative.  But what I am saying is that if you're basing a premise on how much GDB gripping has occurred about topic A or B, it's not necessarily or even likely a representation of the player base's opinions as a whole.

There is also dwindling login numbers that are easily seen and long term trends that are not just gripes, but cycles of players with the same gripes rather than just those of us who are long-term and consistent.  There are players outright citing reasons for why they leave.  There is documentation of them in other places.

Sure, you can go with the aging playerbase reasoning, or other reasons, but at a certain point, you do have to kinda note that what looks like a duck is often a duck.  Not always, but often. Denial of it to 'stay the course' can be admirable or disastrous.

However, I'm also speaking in terms of other feedback on projects from the past, as well as dialogues about events in game that are not had in the GDB.  I've said it many times before; just because someone took the time to make the project doesn't make it an overall good impact on the game, nor does it mean it's working properly/within the scope of its originally stated intentions (an example of this being Desertman's critiques of the player clan system).  These are cases where criticisms of them, even in cases where demonstrations are in place, result in the claim of harassment rather than having any amount of legitimacy.

[Armaddict]

Total derail, but I'm sticking it here since this thread can come with some criticism, so I'll show some support as well.

Nergal and Oryx were working on a project with the goal of removing the ban from the majority of banned accounts. As of May, when Nergal was gathering information, we had 530 banned players out of 18011 total accounts (about 3% of accounts are banned).  This project is still unfinished but I intend to complete this. Essentially we are confirming our parameters for who should remain banned. At this moment we are looking to unban 466 of the 530 accounts. 

Adhira, I think this is marvelous and awesome and spectacular.  I only want the worst of people banned from the game; everyone else can and should be involved into the molding into more responsible players of their playstyle, so long as they aren't actively trying to stick a finger up in a big f u to the game and its precepts.

[Kalden]

Thanks Adhira - that's a rather reassuring and mature post. One little piece of feedback: could a link to the forum rules be put in the footer? I know it's stickied at the top of Staff Announcements but the more obvious and clear, the more people will take it seriously. Might also be worth linking to it at http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules

Completely understand being supportive of the initiatives of colleagues. The main thing for me is transparency and consistency in the practices and policies so everyone knows what to expect. Understandably, there's details out there being shared that the game policies discourage sharing - we all know that. Theoretically, any of us could have read them. But it's not worth the time to go out on a limb after those people.

Also, the main thing for me is how people are playing the game. I started this game back in 2003, and code details were always floating around. It's inevitable and in my opinion not that big of a deal; it doesn't really provide an incredible advantage, and it might even the playing field for newbies relative to veterans like myself. The other game that I spent a lot of time on, Shadows of Isildur, was open-source for the last couple years that I played and that didn't seem to affect things much.

Also, somewhat different but it would be nice if the staff could share some of their onboarding material and internal staff guidelines - and ideally place this somewhere other than Staff Announcements where it can be hard to dig up. I've had requests handled professionally with a focus on the context of the game world sometimes, and other times I've received messages which sounded more like "I don't like that so no, you can't do it". These types of inconsistencies are disheartening.

For example, a guideline could suggest that, to the extent possible, all requests by players to change the game world should be handled with responses that frame the burdens in IC terms rather than OOC concerns, and that when reaching for the exception (due to inflicting dramatic changes to the game, Storyteller effort, or what have you), the staffer should explicitly explain their reasoning for motivating their response with OOC concerns and consider alternative options where possible.

[TheWanderer]

I'll precede this by saying I've basically glossed over the thread and have also opted out of cringing at certain grown adults angrily ranting about their archaic roleplaying games.

Game's the game, GDB is the GDB. But you're still interacting with the same people, the same community. They're intertwined whether you like it or not.

I'm sure someone will chime in to inform me the game has never been better and my opinion is inaccurate, and that pulling wavering numbers of 26-34 players online during peak is not indicative of a systemic problem, but here we go: Armageddon (boards and game) is currently plagued by a number of issues that are solvable but heavily involve delivering and accepting criticism, and then placing enough effort in maturely absorbing these things and adapting. This requires parties capable of handling such ideas without exploding into a fiery ball of hyper sensitivity and holding senseless grudges. Some of these criticisms should be levied toward staff, some toward players.

-----------

Here are a couple criticisms:
"I think staff should look at the current state of affairs and prioritize engaging, involving storytelling when things begin to wane - especially over karma and guild changes. While welcomed and appreciated, coded aspects are not the main draw of this game and I'd much prefer the 70 players at peak of yesteryear. As noted numerous times, big death spectaculars are nice, but there are a great many ways to introduce sources of conflict that don't fizzle out in an incredibly bloody day or two. I can genuinely say guild and karma changes do not excite me and do not inspire my personal interest.

On the other side of the coin, I've noted a fair share of leader PCs that mostly just sit around, mudsex, and wait for staff to give them things to do. I've witnessed these players fill valuable slots for several RL years before finally being removed by random death or storage. It's perhaps better to play as an ambitious self-starter when filling sponsored/leadership roles, not some reactionary type that merely waits for things to fall into his or her lap. Too many of these and nobody does anything and the burden piles on others.

But again, you could get these mainly reactionary types into motion by providing continual sources of conflict - valuable resources, famines, conflicting political parties or interests, etc.

One of these parties must pull slack when the other won't. It's far more ideal when both parties are making active, discernible contributions."

-----------

Yet the atmosphere surrounding the GDB and community at large makes offering opinions and cordially worded criticisms feel like a hopeless endeavor, and the boards -do- bleed over into the game. This hopelessness is partially because they've been repeated numerous times and ignored because people follow their own paths, alongside the worry that voicing an opinion is somehow going to result in grudges and stern rebukes. Eventually, you bottle enough of these opinions up and your frustrations with management of certain aspects boil over into a less than cordial request. Or post. Everyone's human.

Lastly, if there's questionable stuff going on with the boards, that also zaps enthusiasm for the world. I was irked when Desertman was banned - while I never played with nor interacted with the player, he obviously had some impact and was a self-starter for many years. I like self-starting, conversation-worthy players on principle alone, and it's annoying when they're banned because they join a political thread, discuss a differing opinion, and are cut from the community for it. Thicker skin, please. You are continually told not to air grievances with moderation choices on the GDB, but I had little interest in filing a complaint as I knew it would do absolutely nothing. Or it would just draw ire my way. Like I said, people generally aren't receptive to criticism and staff made their decision.

I'm going to assume that Dan guy suffered a similar fate. I don't know if he was actively playing, but still! People are entitled to opinions, even if those opinions ruffle your feathers. While I assume these players weren't banned from the game, it certainly puts a sour taste in your mouth. I wouldn't play if that was done to me.

It's hard for me to rationalize voting for this game when I've begun to silently and frequently disagree with how a lot of it is handled.     

If I started playing now as opposed to four or so years ago, I'd have been gone in a month or two. You know, unless I found that increasingly rare greatness I aspired to emulate when I was sixteen/seventeen and starting out. I do want to hit my stride again but like others, sometimes I feel I'm closing in on the end of my Arm career.

C'est la vie. I care about the game and I hope it rebounds, but acknowledging there's an issue is the first step to solving it.

[Is Friday]

On the other side of the coin, I've noted a fair share of leader PCs that mostly just sit around, mudsex, and wait for staff to give them things to do. I've witnessed these players fill valuable slots for several RL years before finally being removed by random death or storage. It's perhaps better to play as an ambitious self-starter when filling sponsored/leadership roles, not some reactionary type that merely waits for things to fall into his or her lap. Too many of these and nobody does anything and the burden piles on others.

+1

My primary criticism with staff (none in particular, but as a whole) is allowing players to do nothing valuable in leadership roles. But it's hard to quantify because you can't know everything going on with each PC as an observer.

[Asche]

Communicate with us through a tool literally no one trusts to have any semblance of impact, and through discussion threads posted AFTER major changes that exist purely to pretend discussion is a thing when not a single one of them has impacted a decision of staff or policy on the mud in their entire existence.

I'm sure the players/moderators of a game who tagline includes murder and betrayal are genuinely offended by the use of coarse language, and aren't at all using that as a tool to avoid engaging an argument.

This is all very obviously sincere, and surely the start of a new path towards the game's improvement. 700th times the charm! Now we can move on to the important issues plaguing the game.

Like a fantasy slur sounding vaguely like nigger.

[Delirium]

Please at least attempt to be constructive rather than purely confrontational and negative, or I will be forced to moderate your posts. I've been holding off (as have, I imagine, other moderators) because we truly do want everyone to have a chance to state their case. Doing nothing but heap abuse and scorn will not make your case very well - if you have constructive suggestions, genuine suggestions, please make them. Otherwise, please Let It Go ^(tm).

[Asche]

Please at least attempt to be constructive rather than purely confrontational and negative, or I will be forced to moderate your posts. I've been holding off (as have, I imagine, other moderators) because we truly do want everyone to have a chance to state their case. Doing nothing but heap abuse and scorn will not make your case very well - if you have constructive suggestions, genuine suggestions, please make them. Otherwise, please Let It Go ^(tm).

The criticism is that empty promises we've heard a thousand times before is not the basis for a renewed faith that the process is going to spontaneously repair itself. The constant attempts to redirect the conversation to a private tool literally no one reading this thread believes impacts literally anything are easily seen through as an attempt to quell discussion. You know the request tool is a useless medium for facilitating communication, I know it, everyone on this board knows it. We know why they'd prefer the request tool. As frankly as possible, staff NEEDS to start actively communicating with the community ON THE BOARDS if they want to give the impression of genuinely wanting to improve. Talk about genuine efforts 'in the background' are recognized as the same empty promises they've always been. Transparency isn't hard. Communication isn't difficult. Sparing five minutes a day to post on the board and dramatically boost retention is a no-brainer. But it won't happen, because these good faith efforts I'm supposed to believe in don't exist, and everyone understands that.

This community is not as dumb as the staff thinks it is, and if they want to preserve the game, they need to understand that. This isn't abuse. This is blunt reality trying to breach a vacuum.

[Refugee]

I appreciate Adhira taking the time to post and it does make me feel more hopeful.  I'm gonna wait and see what happens next.

[Dar]

Seconded, or maybe thirded? Something 'ed' for sure. My gratitude and kudos to you Adhira for your post.




Asche. The post you created and certain truths that came out in it have actually made me quit the game for awhile. Not due to you, but some posts made on the thread you started. So in a way, as far as revealing truth one of your threads was on point. Having said that, the last .... whole .... bunch of your other posts are waaaay off point. Maybe I am misreading it? Maybe I'm not. But it feels like you're dancing around with a torch, eager to set the teetering house on fire, cackling gleefully no doubt.  Very exaggerated obviously, but not without a grain of truth. Maybe ease up on a pretty aggressive rhetoric. The style you choose to express your opinions in actually devalue those very opinions. Up to you. Depends on what you actually want to achieve. Convince others in your point of view, or just call everyone a Dumbo.

[Jihelu]

I agree with the man of wandering origins.

[Asche]

Asche. The post you created and certain truths that came out in it have actually made me quit the game for awhile. Not due to you, but some posts made on the thread you started. So in a way, as far as revealing truth one of your threads was on point. Having said that, the last .... whole .... bunch of your other posts are waaaay off point. Maybe I am misreading it? Maybe I'm not. But it feels like you're dancing around with a torch, eager to set the teetering house on fire, cackling gleefully no doubt.  Very exaggerated obviously, but not without a grain of truth. Maybe ease up on a pretty aggressive rhetoric. The style you choose to express your opinions in actually devalue those very opinions. Up to you. Depends on what you actually want to achieve. Convince others in your point of view, or just call everyone a Dumbo.

I have a pretty hair-trigger temper for blatant dishonesty. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression I want to burn the house down. I rather enjoy the game, even if it gets progressively worse every year. You, and most of the people posting, have problems with my rhetoric. Literally no one has challenged it's content, though. And heres the thing? I'm not the only one who feels this way. Frankly, I'd argue my views tend to lean on the majority, even if the people who agree would rather not express it the way I do. But frankly? Those people aren't going to make their dissatisfaction more public than a farewell thread. They're just going to leave. The game is slowly going to die, and it'll be done with the whimper of 'try to be civil!'. I don't want single posts vaguely referencing more 'background improvements.'

I don't want blatant damage control and sympathy fostering. I want real, spelled out, and public policy changes made to increase staff accountability, transparency, and improve retention for the game. Adhira's post is none of that. Its the opposite of that. And if you let it be, its all you're going to get. There is a place for anger and malcontent. This is one of them. I want as many people actively angry as possible.

[Is Friday]

I want as many people actively angry as possible.

What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".

[Asche]

I want as many people actively angry as possible.

What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".

How's their preferred method been working?

[Refugee]

Getting everyone "angry" isn't a good goal for this particular situation. 

In many situations, it is.  Almost exclusively when you are dealing with people who are paid to do whatever it is you're upset about.

Having been a volunteer in everything from Cub Scouts to Little League to large dog rescue organizations to staffing a MUD...angry is not how you work anything out with -volunteers-.  Either players or staff, either one.  (Players are as much volunteers as staff, and without either one the game is dead.)

Unlike paid workers, volunteers can find another outlet for their time at will, and they will if they are mistreated or not valued.

Adults should be able to discuss things passionately without losing their temper, and especially without disrespecting each other.  When the angry words start, the discussion becomes about who can win the fight, not about coming to some reasonable resolution to whatever it was about in the beginning.

We don't want to be angry with each other.  We want to be more like a team working toward making the game better.

[Is Friday]

I want as many people actively angry as possible.

What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".

How's their preferred method been working?

I think it works just fine if you aren't coloring your viewpoint with confirmation bias and can accept intermittent mistakes or missteps without claiming "the end of days is nigh".

[Asche]

I want as many people actively angry as possible.

What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".

How's their preferred method been working?

I think it works just fine if you aren't coloring your viewpoint with confirmation bias and can accept intermittent mistakes or missteps without claiming "the end of days is nigh".

If by 'confirmation bias' you mean 'measurably declining player base' and by 'intermittent' you mean 'frequently,' then yes. But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe what we really need to stoke change is MORE OF THE SAME.

[Is Friday]

I want as many people actively angry as possible.

What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".

How's their preferred method been working?

I think it works just fine if you aren't coloring your viewpoint with confirmation bias and can accept intermittent mistakes or missteps without claiming "the end of days is nigh".

If by 'confirmation bias' you mean 'measurably declining player base' and by 'intermittent' you mean 'frequently,' then yes. But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe what we really need to stoke change is MORE OF THE SAME.

I looked back at your earlier posts in the thread to try unraveling your point. I think you have a point and would be surprised at the members who would agree with your point. But you're burying it in replies of snarky comments and generally hattery.

I strongly suggest you create a discussion thread with something along the theme of "Should staff adjust their policy of accountability?"

You'd get more mileage out of that than the route you're going, imo.

If you're not interested in providing discussion on the GDB or stirring change through discussion... then I'd ask you: Why are you posting on a discussion board at all?

[Melanogaster]

I've moderated two posts.  This is a reminder to read our forum rules, in particular Rule 2.

2. Posters should be respectful of one another. Flaming, baiting, trolling or abusing other posters in any way is forbidden. This rule extends to criticism and baiting of staff, as well as responding to such behavior with the same behavior in kind.

[Asche]

I want as many people actively angry as possible.

What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".

How's their preferred method been working?

I think it works just fine if you aren't coloring your viewpoint with confirmation bias and can accept intermittent mistakes or missteps without claiming "the end of days is nigh".

If by 'confirmation bias' you mean 'measurably declining player base' and by 'intermittent' you mean 'frequently,' then yes. But hey, maybe you're right. Maybe what we really need to stoke change is MORE OF THE SAME.

I looked back at your earlier posts in the thread to try unraveling your point. I think you have a point and would be surprised at the members who would agree with your point. But you're burying it in replies of snarky comments and generally hattery.

I strongly suggest you create a discussion thread with something along the theme of "Should staff adjust their policy of accountability?"

You'd get more mileage out of that than the route you're going, imo.

If you're not interested in providing discussion on the GDB or stirring change through discussion... then I'd ask you: Why are you posting on a discussion board at all?

Pretty sure my last thread, one of the most viewed in recent years, was on that very topic. Generated a lot of shitposts, then some actual valuable content, then a staff responded, then it was locked. A thread discussing staff authority reccently opened? Immediately locked on the grounds of 'not opening threads to harass staff.' Oh, that was Nergal? Has the thread been unlocked? No? Weird, that. If you believe for a second Adhira's bullshit about Nergal being this rogue staff working in a vacuum that got out of control was ANYTHING but a blatant effort to say "OH, NO, THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH US", you have a level of faith I'd call blind. Any such thread would be locked within a day, tops. Someone would make a shit-post and then they'd get it for 'derailing', most likely. Staff have no desire to engage in a dialogue.

Pop quiz: Can anyone name literally any decision on policy or the direction of the game that was changed after player input? They don't care about your discussion. They'll open threads to 'discuss' them just to say they let the players have their input, and it'll never impact anything. Same with the recent 'elven slur' thread. Got locked the moment criticism was something they couldn't argue. That is the relationship between staff and players today. A distant, untouchable hierarchy you have no recourse with. And that is how they WANT it.

But hey, we wouldn't things to get uncivil, right? Lets all put our faith in staff that THIS TIME, they REALLY have the well-being of the game at their forefront. REALLY. THIS TIME, GUYS, FOR REAL. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW GENUINE THIS IS.

[mansa]

...
Pop quiz: Can anyone name literally any decision on policy or the direction of the game that was changed after player input?

I can name a few.  I've been here a while.  I've seen some stuff, man.

[valeria]

...
Pop quiz: Can anyone name literally any decision on policy or the direction of the game that was changed after player input?

I can name a few.  I've been here a while.  I've seen some stuff, man.

So have I (though obviously not as long as you!), so could I, but I honestly don't think that's what he's looking for.

[Asche]

...
Pop quiz: Can anyone name literally any decision on policy or the direction of the game that was changed after player input?

I can name a few.  I've been here a while.  I've seen some stuff, man.

So have I (though obviously not as long as you!), so could I, but I honestly don't think that's what he's looking for.

Cool! How about one of you name the most recent example?

[Refugee]

Of course they have the well-being of the game at the forefront.  There's no reason for them to give up their free time working on it if they don't care about it. 

The issue is if what they think is well-being is correct, or agrees with what players think is well-being.  If there's a separation or a disconnect.  Or maybe just disagreement.

Treating them as if they don't -care- is simply trying to cause hurt and that will never close gaps.  Hurt is what you do when you're done trying to close gaps and are ready to eliminate opponents.

If you think that out, there's no good ending for anyone there.

[Nathvaan]

Cool! How about one of you name the most recent example?

As I am the one currently modifying the code based on the discussion thread I can safely say the karma changes discussion.

Also, you are certainly allowed to voice your opinion, right or wrong, but you also have agreed to follow the GDB rules while posting here.  Please review rule number two.  Thanks.

[lairos]

There is a reason, a very good reason why I have less than 500 posts on this forum in over 15 years of playing this game. I really hate confrontation and have a personal issue when I feel like someone it upset with me, which I am aware is my own problem, but it is also why I love this game because my character's can be different than me and I can escape into something different. I tend to read them and keep the majority of the comments to myself. There has been a great number of ups and downs in this game over the years I have spent here, but I can honestly say it is more toxic now than I think I have seen it in a long time because everything is starting to finally come to a head. Players are trying to voice their opinions and what they see because most of them care a great deal, but sometimes go too far with it. Unfortunately there is a past and even some present of things getting shut down so fast it can make your head spin and leave you sitting there wondering why and the feeling of personal attack. It is my opinion that staff have really been stepping up and trying to make things happen for the game in several aspects even if they are not the points that some want. Staff are volunteers and they spend their time, a lot of time actually, trying to bring new things to the game for us and when we, as players, throw it in their face that we hate what they have done? That can be demoralizing and cause those who have invested all that time to just burnout. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes and if we all can't just let the past go and try to move forward then what is the point?

Now, I do strongly believe that the players should get more of a voice when it comes to some of the large changes and closures that affect all of us a great deal. I understand staff make the decisions, but making them without the players will result in loss of players, feeling of betrayal and feelings like the players have absolutely no say. Threads that get closed during the discussion when we get asked for our input and finally told we don't get a choice and this is the way it is can be a very hard pill to swallow. We all know we can go play or do something else, but for players like myself who have been around longer than many others, including some staff, we hold strong ties to this game and it is hard to give up without a fight. I am not going to get into all the changes that I have witnessed, but there have been many that affect the game down to its very core.

Bottom line is staff and players may not always agree, but the level of divide that has been happening being seen sometimes as an Players Vs Staff? This is strangling the game. The GDB and the Game go hand in hand not because people hold things against one another from GDB to IC, but because people stop playing because of the GDB. I for one will admit that the GDB has caused me to really question the time I invest into the game from posts from both sides of the "fence". We all need to be more respectful of one another as I am choosing to stick it out and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I really hope everyone else can do the same.