The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just a friendly reminded that even though OOC events can leave a bad taste in your mouth and, if you're like me you may have even considered just giving up on the game.

But after some thought it's really just more of the same. There's always drama on the GDB and sometimes that drama involves staff. At the end of the day the game is the same. My character and his situations have not changed and neither has yours.

When staff makes decisions about players or the GDB, I sometimes find myself disagreeing. When it comes to what they do as storytellers, content craters, coders, all of that shit? I pretty much always agree with it.

After all the whole point of the game is to escape reality and things like the GDB. So I hope ya'll keep playing, because what I said here is still true. It's still a great time to be playing the game.

[Melkor]

+1

[John]

I'd definitely like to second RGS on this. My interactions with staff have always been positive and constructive in game and in character reports. The only time where I've bumped up against staff is on the GDB. I would hate to see anyone quit the game over some GDB tiff.

Remember: Staff are almost always (I think always from the year 2002 onwards) from the playerbase. As a playerbase we get into GDB fights over things and things blow up and people ragequit for 5 minutes and then come back. Given this is the behaviour of the playerbase, it was only a matter of time before it happened with a staff member. Don't let some internet fight from one day ruin your enjoyment of the game. Worst case scenario, simply stop posting on the GDB and enjoy the game with no regard to what happens on the GDB.

Our community gets passionate. The fact that passion flares up should not be reason to leave the game.

[Jihelu]

I worry about the impression it can give. New members don't know "oh people hate the GDB".

[najdorf]

there is probably no game in the world where forum content + time spent is enormous and bigger than the game itself. even blizzard forums worldwide is 10x smaller than number of posts here. guess people love the drama here, and gdb is MCB  too

[Rokal]

I worry about the impression it can give. New members don't know "oh people hate the GDB".

This. Often times these days peoples first impressions of a community aren't the games themselves, but the forums and other forms of interaction outside the game.

[sleepyhead]

Just makes me sad. I spend so much time and energy trying to get my boyfriend (hylomorphic) to play with me. I should know better than to talk to him about whatever GDB drama I notice but I talk to him about everything (except IC stuff since he started playing, of course.) I always end up mentioning it and he always ends up reading it and then he always thinks "is this a place I really want to play?" And all my effort to get him to play the game is undone and it's pretty much my fault for dragging him into the melodramatic world that is the GDB. And if he feels so discouraged he loses the will to play, it's sadly likely he isn't the only one.

This time I got him worked up enough about the topics in question that he actually posted for the first time and it did not go well...at all. For those of us who have been playing a long time, it's easy enough to look at all the recent nastiness and think it's an aberration and it doesn't matter, but for new players it may be all they know.

That's why it makes me so sad. I know everyone has bad days and I'm sorry for anything I did to work anyone up or hurt them when they were at their tipping point. I feel like some damage has been done now and I'm not sure what to say to make it better. The game is the game, and it's true, anyone can enjoy it despite whatever happens here, but...I'm just rambling because it's 4 AM, I guess.

[BadSkeelz]

Opinions and actions on the GDB are reflected in the account tool and the MUD itself. There is a direct correlation.

No deal.

[Inks]

Skeelz is correct here. There is a direct correlation through game and account tool actions.

I have a lot of hope and get a lot of enjoyment from the game. I obviously care a lot to be posting here. Certain attitudes need to change. There is a reason we lose experienced, quality players.

[valeria]

I'm always happier as a player when I'm having minimal interaction with the GDB.  For a good long time I was a player moderator and I think that gave me a lot of personal dissatisfaction.  My advice is to mostly ignore the GDB.  Disclaimer: this is jaded veteran who has been burned by the GDB advice.

And I imagine that Skeelz is right that things do cross over.  Even excluding possible sourness from bad interactions (staff are only human), if you're a bullish argumentative person on the GDB, that's probably your personality everywhere.  Since staff relationships require collaboration and trust, the nature of your relationship with staff on the GDB is probably going to cross over.

[Dar]

The problem with this is that these GDB expressions are sometimes indirect, or direct, or delayed expressions on decisions and actions done within the game's administration.

To use a highly unfair, but still accurate-ish comparison. Imagine a restaurant. It literally has 'the' best food in town. What's better, it's absolutely free. You can just come in, sit down, and enjoy the most awesome of meals you've ever had in your life without paying a single dime. And things are good! You visit the place, you eat, you move on. The staff is courteous to you and all in all, you dont even really spend much of your attention at staff. You just pick up what's offered on the menu and eat it. Life is good.

Then you find out, that staff is sometimes not so courteous. Perhaps they discriminate against some specific people. Not you. no no, you're okey. But somebody else. And the basic observation shows no good reason for it happening, but it is, it is happening, it is unfair, but ... you're not the victim of it. Soo, oh well. The food is still good and you eat it.

Then the restaurant's manager would come down, sit down on one of the tables and starts talking about Trump. It's a discussion, people are free to voice their opinion. Buuut, certain people, considering some previous incidents are a little leery about this discussion. They worry that if they express an anti-trump opinions, they will be banned from the restaurant. What's worse, is that it turns out that a good percentage of people in this discussion are not Trump sympathizers at all, which pretty soon turns into a matter that the manager statements arent really agreed on by a majority. Some of that majority is quiet, some indifferent, some loud. Finally the Manager fumes out and declares that since people think that they will be thrown out of the restaurant for not being Trump sympathizers, then one month from now, anyone who speaks ill of trump will be thrown out.

... Mkay. Unfair? Yes. Did it in any way hurt you? No. all in all, you're indifferent to politics as whole. You never spoke for Trump, or against. But the food is still good!

As time passes. The food continues to be good. But a certain percentage of the people get ... victimized. For their opinions, for their appearances, for their dogged resolution to call bullshit on other exercises of unfairness, or ... for cussing at people, making a mess, and being idjits.  Some of that victimizing is fair, but a growing amount of it is ... not.  At some point, you ... should ... realize that consuming the food given makes you a quiet 'supporter' of these actions. By continuing to use the restaurant, by enjoying it's food, by enjoying the fact that you are not yet the victim of a rather unpredictable tumult of manager's emotions, you ... support that manager's rush and unfair actions towards some other fellow human being. And that time, it is your decision. The food is good. And you're not influenced by that manager in any way. But others are. What do you do? That restaurant owes you nothing. You do not pay. Do you continue enjoying their food?

[Miradus]

That's a stretch, Dar, if you're saying we're complicit in bad behavior if we continue to play Armageddon.

Look, I warned Nergal the best way to have that discussion was not to have that discussion. He was a bit snarky, but nobody banned me. Nobody took away karma. Nobody animated a giant braxat to rush out of the desert to kill me. We just didn't agree.

These aren't crimes against humanity here. It's some people being rude and unjust on the internet centered around a free video game. Let's try and keep that in perspective. If the treatment I receive gets bad enough, I'll leave. I expect the absolute same out of everyone else.

The game IS better without the GDB, but I have to read the GDB to understand what's going on. There is no in-game, OOC news service which would tell me not to use the word necker when I logged in. No OOC announcements that get shot to me over the telnet port. If I want to know about code changes, policy changes, or sometimes even upcoming RPTs I might want to attend, I have to come to the GDB.

[Dar]

These aren't crimes against humanity here. It's some people being rude and unjust on the internet centered around a free video game. Let's try and keep that in perspective. If the treatment I receive gets bad enough, I'll leave. I expect the absolute same out of everyone else.

And there is where the problem is.



This is a common thing in any society. This is what's going on in Russia right now. The standard of living is relatively high for many. And as long as it remains high, so what if the state is actively imprisoning somebody 'else' without a trial. And since majority doesnt care, the state has no incentive in checking itself and starting to obey constitution. Only if a majority, even those who are in general happy and are unmolested, would walk out and demand changes, would the state attempt to correct itself. But until that happens. Until everyone remain concerned only with themselves, everything continues as it was.  This is happening in almost any society. Big and small. From a country, to a company, to a tiny MUD community.

[Miradus]

It speaks well of you that you feel this way. But I just don't try to change the world. Chalk it up to age or laziness or just that I'm simply not that good of a human being.

I follow the Goethe principle on this and sweep my own doorstep.

I'm here to play a game. My activism ends when I pick up my laptop and sit in my comfy chair.

[Dar]

A perfectly valid stance. It's a choice that each player makes.

We're the game's DMs by some measure of player consensus (in that players agree to play the game under the staff chosen from among the playerbase).

PS:
Heh. I just realized my signature was edited out.
Might've been a bug in retrospect. I'll request about it.

[Kalden]

Read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_fear to understand the culture of ArmageddonMUD right now.

It's really important that leadership have thick skin.

To echo Dar's feelings, one of the very few people I've come to know OOC from Armageddon, who seemed rather solid and low drama, was banned back in February on suspicion of posting to the shadow board, after playing 18 years on and off. According to him (don't see why he would lie to me privately), he did have an account, but it wasn't the person they thought, and he had actually posted comments defending staff on the shadow board. He posted the story on the shadow board. It was rather sad to hear and I thought about questioning it but of course it "isn't my place" to question injustice. I'm just another lowly player, trying to avoid being banned myself. Asking for transparency in bans would put a target on me as a subversive...

I started playing in 2003 with several breaks lasting years in between, but I guess I never felt this type of culture before. With that said, I missed the notorious years of Nyr.

[John]

My interaction with staff on the GDB has never crossed over to the report tool or in game.

[EDITED TO remove emotional rubbish by John]

[Dar]

Well. Anyway. Shit happens. Emotions flare up. We're all guilty of that.

[Inks]

Wow Dar, just read your comparison. Was great.

[FantasyWriter]

To back up the topic of this thread, much of this is why I left cold turkey last year for the first time in over a decade.
They way yesterday's discussion (or was it the day before?) on "Necker" degraded and went over a cliff faster than an argosy off the shield wall, was a big reminder of the reasons I left after the way the way the magick nerf happened, was handled, and the related GDB fallout after.

I've believed for over half a decade that the more time spent participating in GDB discussions is inversely proportional to how much you enjoy your time in Zalanthas.  I've personally had great interactions with the game staff as far as the GAME is concerned for eleven years now except for one Clan Staffer on one Sponsored Role who constantly gave me conflicting instructions/suggestions/judgments, and that pretty much turned me off of ever playing a sponsored role again, but that was ONE thing in over a decade. That's awesome.

Now, the GDB... It's a minefield.  As has been said many times, the GDB community is only a small part of the people who play the game, but they are the ones who are passionate enough about the game to want to try to improve its perceived flaws and and hold on to what they perceive as its strengths.  Some of us have traveled the county/world to meet one another and share our experiences and our lives with one another.  We know each others children and spouses as well as if we were next door neighbors or long sundered high-school friends.  This community has brought people together in marriage, and broken marriages up, we've celebrated births together, and we've come together to mourn the death of players and their loved ones.  Friends have been made and friends have become hated over seemingly stupid and meaningless things to people who don't understand have much passion some of us have or had for a game so old and rich in culture that there are parts of the game that no one even remembers what they were or who (player, character, or tribe) made them.  I say all that for this reason... the GDB brings out the best of us and the best in us players, staff included.  The balance of that is that it also lays the worst of us our stripped naked for all to see.  I don't think this is ever something that can be fixxed, or perhaps even that should.  You can't have Ying without Yang unless it's simply a mask on the monster.

I can promise you this. Ignore the GDB for a month or two and your enjoyment of the game will probably sky rocket.  Not everyone that doesn't participate even in clan boards do it out of laziness or because they're new.  Most probably do it because they believe the GDB just isn't worth their enjoyment of the game.

[Dresan]

There doesn't seem to be a better thread to express this so I'll just use this one. My biggest concern with yesterday's thread is that, for better or worse a change was implemented that some people have issue with. The vocabulary is jarring but it is also prevelant, everyone from staff to players both female and male use those words routinely.

Therefore it isn't a small change and that makes me worried of a potential backlash.

I don't want to see another tuluki player exodus and the consequencial fallout of that again especially as I feel the game hasn't quite yet recovered from that yet. 

I agree that ignoring the GDB is good advice, but at the same time, I ignored it over the last few days and the threads to these discussions already got locked.

[Riev]

I've very rarely found someone whose personality on the GDB has been something that I felt bled over into the game. Not that it DOESN'T happen, but there hasn't seemed to be a correlation with "vocal and obstinate on the GDB" and "is a nightmare to play with in game".

However, from a staff view, I'm certain there are those whose GDB actions have led to game-related issues (being banned for comments, and not being able to play, for example). I once asked Nyr if he S'd and D's on the way back from an absence and got a GDB ban for it, but my PC wasn't banned from playing. When you get banned from the game, it doesn't always mean you're banned from the GDB initially, either.

So long as we keep as much distance from the two as we can, the better. I don't particularly agree or disagree with recent changes. Even the Tuluk change, while still painful, has not stopped me from playing or enjoying the game. But I'd like to mention one thing:

Staff used to be these all powerful overlords. You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned. Those staff handed the reins to other staff they had hired, who handed it down to other staff that they had hired, through the playerbase. I think sometimes we want to believe that the staff are some sort of democracy, that they're of the people for the people. They own the game, they pay for the game, and without us they'd just have less volunteer work to do during the week.

Tl;DR - Play the game. Don't play the GDB.

[burble]

Running away from the GDB and hiding doesn't solve anything. If anything you give a stronger voice to the irrationally belligerent who drown out everyone else with their constant posting. 

Unfortunately, I find the GDB is necessary. I've found answers that the help files weren't good at on the GBD. Wouldn't know how the new bandage or brew stuff works without the GDB. Things like making tea and other obscure commands - found out through the GDB. Upcoming code or world changes, talked about on the GDB.

That was about the fifth thread over the years where I was thinking of posting, walk away, think some more, maybe the next day finally start writing and boom find out it's locked.

The problem is simple. You are allowing the wrong people to dominate the discussions. They have too much mental baggage that they bring to every thread and they are interested in fighting, not solving. You want more voices, not less.

I've sent it in before and say it here.
Make threads where you want feedback only allow 1 post per member. You'll get more variety of feedback, better thought out feedback and, maybe, even solutions.

[Large Hero]

The problem is simple. You are allowing the wrong people to dominate the discussions. They have too much mental baggage that they bring to every thread and they are interested in fighting, not solving. You want more voices, not less.

I've sent it in before and say it here.
Make threads where you want feedback only allow 1 post per member. You'll get more variety of feedback, better thought out feedback and, maybe, even solutions.

This right here. This.

We have people undermining the discussion (either intentionally or not) and turning it toxic, only to then get upset when the tainted discussion leads to a bad result.

One post per explicitly-designated Discussion thread may help limit this and may encourage more thoughtful posts.

[Armaddict]

Staff used to be these all powerful overlords. You couldn't even mention Nessalin on the GDB without getting temp-banned.

Not exactly true.  I've never suffered any ban or temp-ban in any Armageddon related medium until within the past 10 months.  I have been force stored twice, only once in regard to OOC behavior.  I've had a couple topics removed, with a coinciding email explaining why that topic was not suitable for the GDB.  However, staff participation in threads in the past was entirely minimal.  They were a lot more content to watch players duke it out over a topic and take what they wanted out of it without ever saying a thing.

The problem is simple. You are allowing the wrong people to dominate the discussions. They have too much mental baggage that they bring to every thread and they are interested in fighting, not solving. You want more voices, not less.

I think that opinion is under the assumption that debates on topics never have counterpoints to points that are trying to made.  If I have an hour of free time, and someone with a different opinion than my own has an hour of free time, we can end up counter-posting each other 4 times in that hour, giving the appearance of 'dominating' the discussion when really it's just responding to each other.  That's...entirely the point of a discussion in the first place.

Sometimes, it's less about persuading people or demanding to be right, and more about pointing out that someone is repeatedly trying to push their point by misrepresenting yours.  Either that or they demonstrate a lack of understanding of what your post was, which in any rational discourse pretty much requires a response of clarification.

Quite frankly, if I'm the one you guys view as 'toxic', then I really can't help you change that by posting less.  I make jabs at things that are contrary to previous courses of action to show inconsistency, I write out admittedly meandering analogies and thought processes to support an idea I'm trying to present, and if you take that as hostile to your idea it has less to do with what I'm saying and more to do with how you're reading it.  I've said it before; this is the only community I'm involved in (and I staff on 2, but they are smaller IRC roleplaying games) where I'm considered aggressive.

One post per explicitly-designated Discussion thread may help limit this and may encourage more thoughtful posts.

I had actually thought about this the other day, though the limit of 1 is pretty inhibiting for actual discussion and kind of requires you to assume what problems people have with your viewpoint rather than letting them voice it.  If you want a discussion board, people need to be able to actually talk to each other, even if you reading it think it's talking at instead of talking to.


The GDB may be a great place to ignore for people who feel entrenched in their way to play the game.  But it's also a treasure trove of great viewpoints on how to see the game world and how to fit into it better.  That was the original intent of it, and that's how it served for a good long time.  The rising toxicity of it is because there are a lot more people dissatisfied with parts of it than previously, likely while also being far more impassioned about it.  I don't pack my bags and move to an echo chamber over on the shadowboard because that community seems to delight in shortcomings and cheer on anything that makes the game move towards failure (in their perception).  I argue over here because I want the game to succeed.  And I criticize actions here because I find them worthy of criticism, and the age old promise that critiques sent privately will be dealt with has, as demonstrated, not changed anything.