How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?

[Kalden]

I would like to see documentation explaining that sexism is not the same on Zalanthas as it is on Earth, as both genders are roughly equal in physical strength and have equal opportunities. As a long-term veteran, this is the general culture that I was indoctrinated into back around 2006 but I have trouble finding actual helpfiles that explain this (tried: "help gender", "help sex", "help woman", "help female", and so on).

I don't like the words "bitch" or "dick" in-game, and luckily almost never encounter them. Don't think I've ever used them myself. It's just weird to import sensitive areas of the RL world into a game like this.

[Cind]

Gender things apart from baby machinery don't affect my gameplay because there are no gender things in the game apart from baby machinery.

On my few guy characters, though, I tend not to giggle a great deal in one sitting.

[senseofeven]

I've heard people call others as 'headless erdlu' which was tastefully zalanthanian.

Then there's 'gith/elf/breed fucker'.

Then I've spewed out tamer profanities such as, 'mek fart' , 'gith fart'.

If wanna go hardcore, then the best that I can think up is 'ball-less/tit-less ingrate'?

Well why put in real world profanities, we use them and hear them so much that they've lost all its flavor. Add salt, pls.

[Hauwke]

I call people of both gender cunt(insert facial feature here) as much as I call people cock(insert facial feature here).

Sometimes the combinations come out to be hilariously Zalanthan such as a cock-eared gith-fucker.

[ExtraPlanar]

something that I get confused a bit about is clothing and style. Would a male who has long hair and slight body wearing a dress be pass remarkable? Can males dress in what we would think of as a female style (and vice versa) without it being weird? Or would that then bring the complexity of acknowledging gender-queer characters with neutral pronouns in game (which I think could be pretty difficult, but kind of interesting?)

I can understand why some characters in Zalanthas would turn their nose up at this, as I feel like reproduction is important in such a harsh world, where mothers and fathers would probably want to have many children so as to ensure care in their old age/as much money coming into their community as possible. Therefore sex as a pragmatic activity would make sense, and clear gender-signalling would make sense. However this as well could inform some homophobia in game, which, while it would be "realistic" from this point of view, I really would not like to see due to personal reasons "/.

gender/sex in Zalanthas is a really delicate issue because if we want it to be "realistic" we usually refer to real-life mechanisms of sexual/cultural/gender apparatuses to inform what is "realistic", but a lot of the time these are not great for establishing a game in which a certain amount of diversity and equality is welcomed.

[Riev]

If my male PCs (because I'm awful at the few females I've played) want to be pretty, they'll be pretty. I don't run out in heels and gowns, but there are 'feminine' cut shirts out there, or tight deep-v vests. If they have wavy hair and are proud of it, sure as shit they'll wear ribbons or feathers to draw attention to it.

[Armaddict]

But that doesn't change the real world context that you are filtering into the game.

I'm in opposition to this.  I'm not bringing that context into the game; I'm using the bounds of language to make things understood via the tools of dialogue that we have at our disposal.  It's -you- who are importing the real life context into the game.

Statements like these, whether you intended it this way or not, make it seem like a real life SJW front is being actively pursued in the game because of the statement that men and women are being treated equally in the game, which has little to nothing to do with names they're called.

[TheGoose]

Just do what I do. Doggedly view the words in a Zelanthian light.

[bcw81]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

[Miradus]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?

[ExtraPlanar]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?

Does it make sense for a Zalanthan to do that? Would a Zalanthan care that much about enforcing coherent gender norms?

[nauta]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

Even dwarves?

[Riev]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?

Only if they look ridiculous in it. If they're a man, wearing a dress, in the Gaj? Its not that he's "dressed like a woman" its that he's "dressed all fancy in a shit bar". There's a lot of clothing in game that, to Westerners, might actually LOOK like a dress but its really a kalasiri. Which is LIKE a dress, but I can see men rocking them no problem.

[Miradus]

In Nak, you can get thrown into the arena and killed for wearing silk.

Or called a whore for showing too much skin in the Gaj (which we clearly saw demonstrated by a staff animated NPC).

In Luir's or Red Storm, why would any character of mine care if someone is wearing a frilly dress?

But if you're a Naki, it's just stupid to pretend that clothing doesn't matter when so clearly it does in almost every social interaction. There's even helpfiles on what's acceptable clothing in Nak.

Enforcing all this SJW bullshit in this game breaks immersion and waters down the existing lore. It makes for a confusing gameworld and inconsistent because you're unsure which actions are going to suddenly bring some inconsistent and angry response from staff for something you felt was otherwise innocuous.

ETA: I GET that all of you are great and socially responsible human beings who would never use your gender privilege or whatever bywords are current. There's no need for virtue signaling by posting how you would NEVER do such a thing. However not all of our CHARACTERS are socially responsible human beings. Some of them can be pretty fucking vile. And guess what ... that vileness might also extend to areas which we, as modern culturally sensitive people, might find offensive.

Get out your bone sword and get to chopping.

[Riev]

The struggle is the difference between "I discriminate against women because they are <insert poor reasoning here>" and "the entire culture believes women are superior" etc.

Different cultures in game are patriarchal, matriarchal, I'm pretty sure one is led by a man in a goat mask (not really). So there are different stereotypes based on where you live.

Being called a "whore" shouldn't be a pejorative in the first place.

Only in "the city" would someone care about what you're wearing, and even then only if you're representing someone else. If you're a Borsail Wyvern, and you're in public wearing a flowery silk dress, high heels, and enough kohl to choke a mekillot, someone is probably going to wonder whats going on, call you Falish, or something.

I think I draw the line at "He's wearing mens clothes" or "those shoes are for women"

[nauta]

On the point of fashion alone (not gender):

It might be worth pointing folks to Allanaki Fashions helpfile.  (One offtopic interesting point: Green is considered unlucky!)  There's no mention of gender-specific sartorial norms, but, yes, you would be viewed oddly if you showed a lot of skin, especially if you were a fancier person.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanaki%20Fashions

There was also a cool thread on Allanaki fashion.

[Miradus]

Yeah, that's kind of my point too, Riev, stated with less vitriol.

You have literally set up a gameworld with lore and documentation where this, this, and this matters ... but not THIS, hell no, not THIS, because someone will be offended RL.

It's inconsistent and not demonstrative of decent roleplay.

[ExtraPlanar]

Just to add though, dresses aren't intrinsically "fancy" or frilly, to me it'd kind of make sense that many commoners would wear simple dresses, since they're pretty close to djellabahs, kalasiris etc. and can also be pretty conservative. It'd make no sense for me to see a commoner getting harassed in the gaj for wearing a drab dress with a style like this:


Of course, Zalanthan dresses would probably use more breathable material and not be so well put-together, but the long sleeve+low-leg of a dress like this shouldn't really raise eyebrows.

[Riev]

I think the fashion document linked earlier is VERY pertinent and doesn't see enough attention. Southies, despite being in desert heat, cover up almost head to toe. Northerners and tribals tend to be very skin-showing and seen as "barbarians" to the Southies because they aren't cultured enough to hide their shame.

[sleepyhead]

- There ARE docs that suggest that certain kinds of clothes are more commonly worn by men than by women.

- There are trends among NPCs that suggest that certain styles are more often worn by one gender than the other.

- Back when Nyr was still Nyring, he said that a good way to look at it was that masculine or feminine aspects are a thing, but no one would be considered aberrant for "cross-dressing" because there is no sex thought of as weaker or stronger, worse or better.

- There are items IG that say masculine or feminine, and while some think this is only an OOC designation comparable to when a PC has "ice-blue" eyes, it still counts as weak evidence, especially in light of the preceding points.

All of this suggests to me that some clothes are more commonly worn by men than by women and vice versa. None of this makes it okay to treat someone poorly because they are wearing clothes typical of the other gender. That is disallowed. The most I think you should view it as is slightly unusual. Only the most sensitive people IRL freak out when a woman wears a tux. The main reason some people freak out when a man wears a dress is because of how "emasculating" it is perceived to be. That would not be an issue on Zalanthas, nor would the "defeminization" of a woman, because women are known to be potentially as brutal and capable as anyone, while men are just as likely to be sensitive and non-combat-prone as anyone.

That is my interpretation. The other (perhaps more common) interpretation is that there are absolutely zero styles or trends that apply more to women than to men or vice versa, and a man in a frilly dress is exactly as common as a woman in a frilly dress. To me this is bland and homogenous. I think we are allowed to accept that there are some weak traditional aesthetic norms as long as we do not go too far and mistreat people for breaking them.

[Akariel]

In none of the following documentation that has followed Armageddon for at least a decade, likely longer, does it state anywhere that one sort of garment is for men and the other sort is for women.

Tuluk Fashions
Allanak Fashions
Tribal/Red Storm/Luir's/Etc. Fashions

About two years ago any clothing with an sdesc of 'feminine' or 'masculine' in the sdesc had the term removed because there is no clothing item in the game world that is meant for one sex or the other.

[sleepyhead]

Not true, Akariel. I think you have stuff that got overlooked.

Bisht
A robe-like, sleeved garment typically worn by men. When worn closed, one side overlaps the other. It fits loosely, comes in one size and may have to be hemmed to fit.

Kilt
A one-piece wrapping that resembles short pants beneath a skirt. A favored piece amongst men for the freedom it offers. Worn by men of all castes in several regions.

These are just the ones that come straight to mind. I'm not sure if there are others.

[nauta]

Nevermind, elf'd by sleepyhead on kilt and bisht. 

Curiously, cowl is a preference for gicks:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Cowl

[sleepyhead]

Yes, the kilts are worn by men for junk reasons according to the docs, but I don't see why kilts would be favored by men over other skirts, or why women wouldn't choose to wear them just as often, so it still doesn't make that much sense in a world with absolutely no gender-specific clothing whatsoever. But I guess that's the world we're playing in, so I'm just going to have to adapt like I always do.

[Akariel]

There may be a few odd helpfiles like that, but they are contradicted in other places. For example:

Kilts and pteryges that leave the legs bare are also popular with men and women.

Bishts inparticular should probably be unisex (and the helpfile changed) since they're a part of a main clan's uniform.