Plot raffle.

[wizturbo]

I dislike the "raffle" bit of this, actually a great deal. Creating plots - great! Reporting plots - also great! Fantastic even! But... plots should be the number one reason you play Armageddon. They should be their own incentive.

Jherlen,

I think you're focusing too much focus on the incentives for this program, and losing sight of what exactly this is trying to incentivize. 
With that said, at best, once a month one player will win a scar and a vanity thing for a future character and a skill bump.  This isn't steel swords or wands of fireballs here.

Some of the most fun I had was being able to find and nudge along the non-sponsored, non-leader, non-superturbowizard PCs who were making neat everyday plots, talking about their virtual NPC friends, or living lies that the character desperately wanted no one to discover while the player desperately did.

This is exactly what this program is incentivizing.  Sponsored roles and leaders are required to create plots and report on them.  They won't be in those roles if they stop doing either, and they generally also have a series of incentives to reward them for doing this.  This raffle is actually something that's inclusive of the non-sponsored, non-leader PCs.  It's an open call for everyone to get on the staff's radar so they can help tell their stories too. 

Also, are you sure you're directing your jabs at the right person on this?  Basically every example this "Superturbowizard" has been making on this thread is the type of plot you nostalgically refer to enjoying during your time on staff.  Why aren't you seeing that?  Is it because I like the program, and think it has potential, where you object to it?   Why was it necessary to take a jab at me at all by the way?  It didn't help you advocate your position.  What were you hoping to accomplish?

[BadSkeelz]

The plot raffle is just a carrot to attract players (who might not otherwise do so) to notify Staff of their plot via the Request tool. Using a new and hopefully more informative format, as well. It's not that big a deal.

[wizturbo]

Yup.  Some people respond well to carrots. The Karma system is basically the same thing, with just much bigger carrots.  It helps reinforce the type of qualities the game wants in it's players.

[Miradus]

The plot raffle is just a carrot to attract players (who might not otherwise do so) to notify Staff of their plot via the Request tool. Using a new and hopefully more informative format, as well. It's not that big a deal.

I respond really well to carrots.

If it's just a request from staff to let us know we're up to something then hey, no problem.

Staff: prepare to get the shit notified out of you.

[Jihelu]

Are mass orgies considered plots?

[Jherlen]

Wizturbo:

I didn't mean to single you out at all. Very sorry for the similarity there. I used "superturbowizard" as a generic term to refer to sorcerers and mages and powerful PCs of those sorts of stripes, because they tended to attract lots of attention. That ended up being a very unintentional and unfortunate word choice. Seeing your name in the recent posts may have subconsciously influenced what I wrote, but I anyway assure you it was by no means directed at you or any one individual.

On incentives and gamification:

- Being able to play a sponsored role is its own incentive, as those roles tend to come with substantial power and perks. Plot creation and reporting are a natural expectation of those roles. Plot creation ought to be a sort of expectation for everyone, really, so it's the reporting that's different. Creating character reports as a leader PC, and responding to them as staff is a significant effort (or at least it used to be - I've been out of that world for a while.) That effort was worth it, though, because those sponsored roles tend to have much more potential to create action, and staff have responsibility to ensure that action is represented realistically. So the interaction is necessary, but not so much for "plot creation" reasons and moreso because if Lady Borsail is trying to hold a slave auction in the Gaj, someone needs to ensure that that plot ends up the way you would expect it to. But I digress.

- Existing incentives for plot creation are: fun, interaction, suspense, and hopefully positive account notes and karma that lead to more powerful roles, which can create new kinds of plots, which lead to more fun and suspense etc. The karma system has its upsides and downsides, but it does generally tend to encourage interaction (and therefore plots) in order to gain karma.

- Custom tattoos and items aren't game breaking, for sure. But no matter what the incentive beyond aforementioned karma and fun, I don't really like the gamification of plot reporting. It pulls players and staff both further out of the game world and into the request tool. It creates incentives to start plots other than the plots themselves, but because you're hoping for a skill boost or a unique item on your next character. It might subtly influence behavior - my PC would do X, but I the player want to do Y instead to turn my plot from a 1 point plot into a 2 point plot, or something. Others have also brought up concerns about favoritism, which from my experience was always more a problem of optics than reality (not saying it didn't happen) - but either way it creates the the potential for the complaint.

- Honestly, I wish there could be ways to make those sorts of minute customizations availailable to all players without a raffle system. If the capacity were there to grant one cosmetic thingy a month to every active player, or even just every new PC, that would be even better than a raffle. I do appreciate and salute the effort of staff trying to bring unique things into the game, and likewise I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging plot creation. I just don't love the marriage of those two goals in raffle form.

[BadSkeelz]

Are mass orgies considered plots?

No, I already checked.

[Armaddict]

Custom tattoos and items aren't game breaking, for sure. But no matter what the incentive beyond aforementioned karma and fun, I don't really like the gamification of plot reporting. It pulls players and staff both further out of the game world and into the request tool. It creates incentives to start plots other than the plots themselves, but because you're hoping for a skill boost or a unique item on your next character. It might subtly influence behavior - my PC would do X, but I the player want to do Y instead to turn my plot from a 1 point plot into a 2 point plot, or something. Others have also brought up concerns about favoritism, which from my experience was always more a problem of optics than reality (not saying it didn't happen) - but either way it creates the the potential for the complaint.

That's part of the weirdness of it for me, too.  This is what I mean when I talk about staff being an approval board nowadays rather than just...doing...the game.  It's not a complaint as much as it is a critique of the methods being employed.  There's a lot of OOC bureaucracy at this point, and it only seems to be inflating.  'Just play the game' has been a creedo for a lot of people for a long time, but we've been slowly implementing more and more steps that make that easier said than done.

Gamification of plot creation is the phrase.  The 'plot committee' is strange.  Then as I noted before, the 'change' from how it was before; Why was there already no involvement in plots that were talked about in reports?  Was there a problem with plots being hidden in reports?  I don't get where it came from.

[BadSkeelz]

You know if I were staff, I would just say I was doing a raffle and then not hand out a prize at all. Kind of like how Lotteries work in Oceania. The points to get you to participate and distracted, not to spend time and resources rewarding a winner. You would only know if someone won if you're a filthy OOC collaborator 

Winning the lottery also doesn't mean your plot's actually going to get staff attention. I'm not worried about someone trying to game the Request tool and gain an advantage. Anyone who works that hard out of the game probably sucks in game and is easily PKed.

[wizturbo]

Jherlen - No worries.  Sometimes the coincidence dice roll double 20's, it did seem pretty weird and out of place! 

As for the whole gamification thing...  Yeah, I don't like having to go to the request tool for stuff either, but I recognize the need for staff to have some kind of method to stay informed in a curated kind of way.  Ideally having some in-game way of doing this would be vastly preferred, but I would imagine that any such plot reporting system would come with huge opportunity costs on the game's coders.  I'd much rather they keep doing all the incredibly cool stuff they've been cooking up over the last couple of years at regular intervals, and put up with having to use the request tool for this.

Then again, maybe some clever solution could be established.  I mean you can already report bugs ingame, maybe this is less of a challenge than I think it is?

Perhaps there could be a staff only rumor board where players could post these, but couldn't read them?  The only problem with this in my eyes is using the text editor in Arm is a real pain in the butt, whereas the request tool is a normal word processor.

[LauraMars]

Are mass orgies considered plots?

No, I already checked.

just wait until my next noble

gonna throw a huge 50 person orgy hrpt in the borsail estate underground harem and win the raffle 5 months in a row

[wizturbo]

Going to need a role call for throwaway pleasure slaves for LauraMars' orgy.  Sex Gladiators. 

[bardlyone]

- Honestly, I wish there could be ways to make those sorts of minute customizations availailable to all players without a raffle system. If the capacity were there to grant one cosmetic thingy a month to every active player, or even just every new PC, that would be even better than a raffle. I do appreciate and salute the effort of staff trying to bring unique things into the game, and likewise I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging plot creation. I just don't love the marriage of those two goals in raffle form.

All of this.

I'd love it if all pcs could have this option, maybe as an opt in/out step in character creation after desc and short description, like:

Code Select Expand


Do you have an identifying markers (unique tattoo or scar)? Y/N


bringing you into the short desc and desc for the tattoo or scar, then 'where?' with a list of wearlocs by # which can be chosen. I'm sure that the people who have approved character applications can see how that might show up on the page in the queue under the character's short desc and desc, then it would weed out typos, and stuff not fitting with the game world could be weeded out right then and there, but everyone could have the option. I still think the vanity item is a great idea for a prize for this, but I wish that the custom scar/tattoo was open to all.

[Jihelu]

Are mass orgies considered plots?

No, I already checked.

just wait until my next noble

gonna throw a huge 50 person orgy hrpt in the borsail estate underground harem and win the raffle 5 months in a row

I await your culling of House Borsail and then your family rollcall, "The House Borsail Buccaneers" and the only info on the rollcall is a picture of a pirate in assless chaps.

[Armaddict]

I meant the Gamification and Request game as two separate hesitations I have with it.  Maybe I misunderstood the original gamification statement.

I mean as in contrived plots versus natural ones.  I'm a fan of natural ones, where you just get in game, play around, gain goals, and so on.  Everything builds on each other very fluidly that way.  Incentivizing it seems like it will be more prone to 'And now I need a plot to make!' which leads to more plots, perhaps, but also some of those that are clearly plots just for the sake of being something to do, which are almost never...as...enjoyable, because they poke out as contrived.  At least to me, anyway, and I am admittedly stingy about such things.  Most things.  All things?  *keanu reeves fuck it shrug*

The request game/approval board thing has been a long-standing criticism of mine, so I just point it out whenever I see it built upon.  As noted, I'm not sure what prompted this when I'm pretty sure people were already reporting all their plots (I can't think of a reason you wouldn't), and so the only thing different I'm seeing is that these are like formal invites for staff to play along...but that's...what I thought the reports were...all along... Not upset by any means, nor saying it should be removed.  Just entirely confused on what it's supposed to change in exchange for more approval-board type stuff.

[Malken]

Just entirely confused on what it's supposed to change in exchange for more approval-board type stuff.

Stop worrying about it, then. I guarantee you won't be affected by it.

[RogueGunslinger]

I feel like this is the sort of thing that once people see or hear about it working out for someone else they're going to be suddenly all over it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

So, I was thinking over some plots in my head.  It seems that the call is meant to encourage two things: reporting the little personal plots that you have going on (which involve 2+ players), for sure, but also encouraging us to drum up bigger plots that staff can roll with.  I think.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, we could submit plot ideas like:

... world changing plot hooks.

I think you're wrong, but it'd definitely be a lot cooler if you were right.

It seems like this was just an incentive for people to throw more personal little plots, and also to report them to staff. I don't recall seeing anything about submitting plot hooks. It's just baby carrots to try and get you to do the stuff that most of us should be doing anyways. I don't think the incentives are terribly incentivizing. (Shouldn't we just have a custom tattoo-er and scar-er in the newbie room anyways? I can't play a week without seeing someone whose entire visual concept revolves around a specific wound or tattoo.) Unless your custom item can be a fist sized nugget of iron ore, I doubt this will result in anything more interesting than another party/auction where we all pretend to be drunk and see how many fandom references we can sneak into our party conversation without completely shattering the 4th wall.

Not that those aren't alright. But, couldn't it be better?

Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world? Or design an NPC that has some funny one-liners to shout at you in the bazaar. Or maybe the winner doesn't even know they won, but something sweet and random and NOT ALREADY POSSIBLE BY PC WILL ALONE happens to them;  their foraging uncovers a flake of gold, their hunting party encounters an unusually colored creature on its next hunt, they find an old lost book propping up a wobbly desk in their mansion, a small group of raiders begins stalking them on their contracts. (Yes, death is a prize! If you don't think so you're a garbage person!) Something to make this feel less like a game that we already know all the possible outcomes to, and more like a dynamic world where things happen.

Just my (cynical) thoughts.

[Akaramu]

I once managed to get 2 custom NPCs and about 4-5 custom tattoos added to the game - for a certain Luirsfest that also became known as Gypsyfest (thanks, Nyr!). I wonder how many PCs ran around with the tattoos I wrote up. 

Personally, I'm still going to do the thing I've always done - mention plots in character reports. I'd be more enthusiastic if the rewards were tied to the current character and directly related to that character's plot. What if my next PC is super short lived? The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

[Malken]

The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Same risk you run with special apps and karma-related boosts.

[Shoka Windrunner]

The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Same risk you run with special apps and karma-related boosts.

Touche'.

Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world? Or design an NPC that has some funny one-liners to shout at you in the bazaar. Or maybe the winner doesn't even know they won, but something sweet and random and NOT ALREADY POSSIBLE BY PC WILL ALONE happens to them;  their foraging uncovers a flake of gold, their hunting party encounters an unusually colored creature on its next hunt, they find an old lost book propping up a wobbly desk in their mansion, a small group of raiders begins stalking them on their contracts. (Yes, death is a prize! If you don't think so you're a garbage person!) Something to make this feel less like a game that we already know all the possible outcomes to, and more like a dynamic world where things happen.

Just my (cynical) thoughts.

Oh...I would so be 10,000% for allowing a player to help add just random things to the wasteland that could be found/are unburied by the sand.  Make the world come more alive.  Maybe you don't even know where it is placed, other than it is somewhere out there.  Anywhere out there.  And then, 7 characters later you find it and go WOAH!  I did that!  And everyone else could go...WOAH that wasn't there yesterday!  Just...yes.

Also a thing in the world that is just nice.  An ancient worn copper coin.  Three pages in an old scroll case.  A small spring of water bubbling up out of the ground.  (temporarily)  Those are the things that not only make you sit back and go WOAH!  They also can grow into plots in their own right.  Just a maguffin here, or a maguffin there.  Little prods to continue your work and create more plots in the world, get more people involved.

What do you do with that ancient rusty iron pocket knife you found?  Who do you trust to even let them know you have it?  Will you hoard it like Gollum or will you try to sell it to someone?  Will it become known as the cursed skinning knife of Amos because everyone who ends up with it gets killed by someone seeking it as well? 

These pages...what are they?  Could they hint at something further?  A previously unknown location (that perhaps some other player created)? 

Water?  Here?  Could a well be dug in this place?  Changing trade routes? Becoming a place that becomes a gathering point for raiders?

I think it would be nice to see small rewards that compound on themselves and create more plots, more adventure, more awesome stories to share with other PC's as this small occurrence unfolds into something possibly larger.

[Akaramu]

The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Same risk you run with special apps and karma-related boosts.

Right, but a short-lived spec apped character probably never did any serious plotting. It would be nice to get the reward for the mover and shaker character who's lived long enough to plot, and invested the time,  the resources, took the necessary risks and survived to get things done.

[wizturbo]

Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world?

I've found that asking to design your own adventure thing doesn't go over nearly as well as just saying "Hey, we're going to go to this already unusual place on X day.  Can you fuck with us please?".  Every time I've asked for something like that (albeit, I didn't ask for it every week or something) I've rarely had a disappointing result.

I had a field trip with some of my clan mates in House Oash once before, simply a "We're going to visit this creepy place" and when we showed up there was poison gas, odd malevolent forces at work, and plenty of mystery to be found.  I still wonder what else might've been uncovered on that one... 

Give the staff small open-ended options on how to fuck with your characters, and they will fuck with your characters.  At least in my experiences over the last few years. 

To continue on this thought though, don't assume that the rabbit hole keeps going deeper on everything that happens.  Sometimes it does, but if you keep trying to follow up and turn a one-off adventure situation into an ongoing plot the complexity starts to escalate and the staff might not be able to meet those expectations.  For instance, early on with one of my leader characters I led a party of people to a location, and staff had some fun shit happen there.  My PC convinced themselves there was more to it than a chance encounter, and repeatedly tried to dig deeper into the situation but got nowhere.  I got OOCly frustrated by this at the time, but in hindsight it's easy to recognize that the staff that were creating that one-off fun event were not looking to sign up for some multi-month series of RPT's over it.   A single episode of the X-Files is a lot easier to write than an entire interlocking season.  There's no easy way to communicate this ICly, so sometimes you just need to learn to take a hint as a player and ease off if a particular plot line isn't getting what you want out of it.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world?

I've found that asking to design your own adventure doesn't go over nearly as well as just saying "Hey, we're going to go to this already unusual place on X day.  Can you fuck with us please?".  Every time I've asked for something like that (albeit, I didn't ask for it every week or something) I've never had a disappointing result.

Oh, I took this as, design a cave, Imms add it 'somewhere' you don't even get to know really and people get to find/interact/live/raid from/hide/mine/die there.  Maybe you never find it, but it's out there.  Somewhere.  Not really design your own adventure thing.

[wizturbo]

Poor word choice.  Took the word adventure out.

All I'm saying is you don't need to design anything at all.  You don't have to work to make a plot, you just need to get some people together and report on it.  Your "plot" can be as simple as:

Intro – The five of us are going to check out the red desert, in search of the lost Silt Winds tribe.
Goal(s) – Try and find out about the silt winds tribe.  General exploration.
Plans – We've put together a bunch of supplies and plan to start out in Cenyr, asking locals there about the tribe, before setting out into the deep desert for a prolonged exploration.
Possible Conclusions – Maybe we find them?  Maybe we find something completely different?  Maybe we find nothing at all?
Additional Notes – – Would love it if staff took this opportunity to mess with us.

This leaves so much room for staff to cook up something interesting, letting them do what they find fun.  The only work on the player's part is just organizing a time to get everyone together, and putting together the reasonable supplies needed for it.  The best part is, even if staff don't show up for this, you can still have a pretty fun time with things.  I'd be shocked if there wasn't some staffer out there who wouldn't jump at a chance to fuck with a party of 5 people in a desert though, as long as you picked a time that they could work with.