Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Shoka Windrunner]

I did burgle a lot with my Whiran.  Used to rob the halfling village of food until he found out what that meat was.  That tells you when this might have been.

Were there a lot of locks to pick in that halfling village? 

That reminds me... I really wish I could have played a halfling before they went the way of the dodo. 

This was never the norm or even common.

I would like to say that the long-standing issue with magick versus non-magick is that non-magick wants non-magick to have prevalence, where magick says they are already shorted socially, and need to be included in plots.  There's not really an easily found reconciliation point there.

Good point. Maybe we really need more legitimate employment opportunities for mages so mundanes can legitimately hire non-mages for their sekret plots, without feeling they have to include the poor mages in plots because no one else will.

No but lots of windows!  *wink wink nudge nudge*

Edit: And actually at that point in time...doors were no barrier to a good Whiran.  Or even a terrible one like me.

Edit:Edit: Which may make my point of view severely outdated.  I will leave now.

[hopeandsorrow]

I'm curious, to those who feel lost with the full mages gone, what would bring you back in aside from the return of them?  Is it all because you liked getting powerful more quickly, or can it be sidestepped into a new experience that could be fostered with some changes as things are?

For me personally?

More to explore, game wise.

After skills and mastery of skills... all content is 90% social.  I'm not a super social rp'er.  I rather do a hunting trip with two other folks, then sit in a tavern an uh... discuss shit?  I dunno I never found that type of RP which this game seems to now center around, socializing and politic'ing, which honestly isn't for everyone.  I wanna log on and pretend to be a brawny idiot who fights giant bugs with swords, I'm not really interested in the inner political workings of Allanak or whose fucking who in the commoner "we're all fucking each other circuit".   Ain't my cup of tea man.

Magick was like one of the last few things that existed to explore and for the longest time I had characters and ideas written up when I reached the required karma or felt ready to special app XYZ.  Almost all of that is gone, there isn't much to explore there except what has been split up and re-introduce in a piece meal fashion.   So now I'm exploring pieces while straddled now with the awful mundane grind.

If they wanna really wanna make me utterly excited... create new and exciting content.  I'm talking expansive world roll out, more rooms and area's to explore, with new dangerous critters to fuck with, and new interesting shit to bring back to Allanak.

Don't just split apart classes or nerf them, that's content removal.  Add new stuff, add new classes, while maintaining the old.  Add new magick, even if it's just smaller in scope, add more with out taking away stuff.

Hell I'd just be super excited to know that there's more to explore.

As well, I feel with quarter-magick, the weird/dangerous meter actually got dialed down.  Not in a good balance way either... just the potential for players to bring weird shit to the board got quartered with nothing really added to make it up.

Nilaz's and Sorcerers had this legendary status in my mind, gods among PC's.  Weird shit could happen and be player driven, with out needing to burden staff or plan things out months in advance.

Now that just seems a little less possible... there's a little less interest... I dunno mundanes doing mundane things going about mundane life is not something that's motivating to me, it all seems rather mundane once you done warrior #1423 and Solo Ranger Guy the 23423rd. 

Seems there's nothing really to do besides grind skills, interact at night with players, and wait and hope some one super creative can figure out something you'll find exciting in the sandbox.  To me, the sandbox seems to have shrunk and it's more than just my game knowledge... content has been removed with out equally as interesting content being added.

They wanna excite me? Add content, add content that isn't some extra clan room or noble house estate.  Add content that is open to the players... add content that players can strive for openly with out staff approval. 

When weapons skills are (master) why can't a warrior start to learn newer ways of combat? Why can't need fighting styles with various bonuses and stances or whatever be added?  You know, the game suffers from a sort of stagnation in my eyes. 

It's also very very very very clear that social players are the main focus, why can't we lonerish, go getter types get a bone thrown our way?

I don't care for clans, or taverns, or talking about why templar decided the nuke that particular insufferable aide.  Don't give a shit, if it weren't for sometimes it being needed... I wouldn't step a foot into Allanak. Why? Most of my best memories of this game happened outside those gates when some player made shit really weird.  When there was something for me to explore... and sometimes a real disappointment to find I couldn't bring X creature back because the rooms where changed to prevent that particular mount from being relocated. (Content removal in all but name).

That world is super static, overbearingly so sometimes.   My magick woes are me simply being a bit salty I didn't put in the effort years ago or played around the end of the world to see some really cool, off the wall, solely Armageddon things.

I could go on with poorly formulated ideas... I'd get excited for the game if I saw some REAL content being added and knew it wasn't going to come at the cost of something tried and true. (I remember a Ranger nerf thread that nearly had me pulling out my fucking hair).

[Armaddict]

Some stuff that I agree heartily with you over.  Some things I don't.  I might say some stuff you don't care to hear for various reasons, but maybe out of all of the crap, something will be helpful.

After skills and mastery of skills... all content is 90% social.

While this is true, I feel like you're kind of penning in just what 'social' means.  I'm not the sort who's big into sitting around and chatting people up.  I like things to -do-.  I like building go-to, dependable characters who develop reputations for things so that over the course of time, I essentially build myself up to where I may as well have a dialogue pop up on my screen:  "You have been assigned a quest!"  It leads to pretty cool, objective driven things to do where you uncover not new -content-, but new stories.  I have no idea if you've ever thought of it that way or not (I don't mean that in a condescending way).  But interacting in social activity doesn't mean you have to be super active in politicking or anything.  It just means people knowing who you are and establishing yourself so that content is actually -thrown- at you.  That sounds a lot like your hunting trips.

If they wanna really wanna make me utterly excited... create new and exciting content.  I'm talking expansive world roll out, more rooms and area's to explore, with new dangerous critters to fuck with, and new interesting shit to bring back to Allanak.

I agree with filling out ecosystems, generating temporary content to be utilized, etc.  I don't really jump on board with the whole expansive world roll out, however.  It's not that I don't think it should happen; I'd be overjoyed if we added in new zones.  But I don't think it should be a primary focus of the game;  constant expansion of rooms leads to a lot of strange behavior for no real IC reason.  A lot of OOC gets pulled in there.  A lot of expectation comes with 'Keep making it bigger to keep me entertained', and it for some reason reminds me of building for hack'nslash muds.  We've got a pretty big expansive world where we can fit in plenty of filler as is, I feel.  If they do add more zones, I'd almost prefer it be done quietly without informing people so that it slowly filters into the game-consciousness.

Don't just split apart classes or nerf them, that's content removal.

Nilaz's and Sorcerers had this legendary status in my mind, gods among PC's.  Weird shit could happen and be player driven, with out needing to burden staff or plan things out months in advance.

(I remember a Ranger nerf thread that nearly had me pulling out my fucking hair).

I agree heartily.  The thing about that thread that got me was that it pointed out that there are a lot of people just like you; a large portion of the game's enjoyment has moved out of the city, which made one class clearly superior to the others because that's where the game was migrating to.  Yes.  When everyone wants to get out of the city to do things, the outdoor-based class becomes amazing where all the in-city classes feel gimped.  I've gone on various rants/diatribes about why this is (AHEM.  CLANS), but nerfing it for what is a player state of mind was likewise hard for me to swallow; they get what they need to be loners out in the wild.

Sorcerers and Nilazis have been a sore spot.  I -liked- that that they got powerful enough to antagonize entire clans and cities.  That was what made them great.  They could show up and generate content for huge swathes of people -and survive it to do it again-.  But this was kind of the reason that was cited for why they were removed/downgraded.  It's one of those design choices that I'm still at odds with as it seems you are.

Now...a lot of the rest of your post seems to allude to what you were getting at.  You like new exciting things, not familiarity; magick guilds both allowed you to explore more easily/comfortably, and provided access to a less-known part of the game.  My opinion (and you may very well disagree, but I'm mostly going for a shift in paradigm or...something.  It just made me analyze what could correlate) is that you're going to hit a wall there regardless of magickal guild status; you'll still explore the world.  You'll still learn the magickal side of things.  And you'll do it all faster than I did/do.  And so even with the full guilds in the game, you'd still run into the same scenario as now, sooner or later.

I relatively recently (years, not -that- recently) found a tree in the game.  A tree.  And it made me more happy than you can imagine.  This fucking tree...I had been wanting to find it for so long.  You've probably already found it.  But I play mostly mundanes, it took me forever to find this tree.  And this is a recurring theme for me.  I know a -lot- about the game, and I also find out new things all the time, precisely because I'm not really trying to learn all of it at once.  It happens seamlessly over time, and sometimes disaster strikes.  It can be disheartening, but that is usually over the social progress made as noted above, not the skill progress.  Skill progress in recent times has become a giant talking point due to the emphasis on this grind, and I really do think it needs to be reiterated:

You can go out into the wilds early on.  It is dangerous.  You do not need master skills to survive, you just need to be alert and play the game as a non-master.  You only need apprentice weapon skills.  You only need journeyman/advanced other skills.  And you need problem-solving and threat assessment.  That's it.  You can start exploring very quickly.  I learned almost all of my geographical knowledge with characters that were low on the skill spectrum, and low on the playing time spectrum.  All it needs is for you to enjoy it, and to sometimes accept that restarting a new character is not the end of the world, especially when random opportunities and events propel them into new situations you haven't dealt with before.

The need to feel safe with your character is removing you from the very thing you said you want to experience more, in my opinion.  The desire for it to feel easy to pull off is removing some of the reward of it from you, I think.  And I think a different perspective and some patience on this side could bring you into the point where maybe some of these subguilds become cool because of the hybridization it allows you to use (maybe.  I really know nothing at all of the subguilds at this point, I'm going off of limited exposure).

To wrap it up:

It's also very very very very clear that social players are the main focus, why can't we lonerish, go getter types get a bone thrown our way?

I empathize with this a great deal, because I consistently point out how I used to just be able to log in and -do stuff-.  I wrote a post about how this game sometimes errs towards the side of MUSH because of how we tend to emphasize things in my view.  We really do try to push for everyone to be involved in these sweeping social events.  We often demonize competitive drives, ruthless characterization, lonerships, or accomplishment-based players, sometimes not intentionally.  Everything seems to be oriented around how you affect everyone else's story instead of being allowed to just experience your own.

I'm one of those too.  Probably more of a hybrid than you are.  There's still a lot in the game that appeals to that side, you just have to kind of shrug off some of the insinuations in the community and development path and take it as well-meaning, but not really applying to you, because you're not doing anything wrong.  In the meantime, with the loss of the full guilds for whatever reasons they decided, I -am- confident you can still gain those experiences you're looking for through this game.  This game has it all.  But you will have to change the way you get it.  Hopefully you can brainstorm some ideas on how to get there.  And maybe there will be a combo in these new subguilds that just makes it perfect in a different way.  And I realize this may actually all be a bunch of crap/useless drivel, but I'm kind of hoping that as I said, there's a way to sidestep the removal and continue down the same path you were on before, just in an alternate way.

[Synthesis]

You can still go on hunting trips with people as a subguild magicker.

You can still explore as a subguild magicker.

You can still solo RP as a subguild magicker.

You can still annoy the hell out of people as a subguild magicker.

You can still fuck shit up as a subguild magicker.

You can still socialize as a subguild magicker.

The only real problem I see is that it is *exceptionally* difficult to justify picking any primary guild except ranger, if you're going to be rogue.  Even if you're gemmed, ranger seems like it would be far and above the best pick unless you plan on always going face.  Ranger is extremely versatile, but the "killer app" for a gemmed ranger is that you can QUIT OUT whenever/wherever you effing want to, regardless of whether you have active spells up or not.

(P.S. Please release Nilaz, Drov, and Elkros subguilds.)

[Shoka Windrunner]

You can still go on hunting trips with people as a subguild magicker.

You can still explore as a subguild magicker.

You can still solo RP as a subguild magicker.

You can still annoy the hell out of people as a subguild magicker.

You can still fuck shit up as a subguild magicker.

You can still socialize as a subguild magicker.

The only real problem I see is that it is *exceptionally* difficult to justify picking any primary guild except ranger, if you're going to be rogue.  Even if you're gemmed, ranger seems like it would be far and above the best pick unless you plan on always going face.  Ranger is extremely versatile, but the "killer app" for a gemmed ranger is that you can QUIT OUT whenever/wherever you effing want to, regardless of whether you have active spells up or not.

(P.S. Please release Nilaz, Drov, and Elkros subguilds.)

Just putting a little bit of Drov, Nilaz and Elkros back would be great.  Even if you just choose one subguild of these and put it up with select spells.  (though I wouldn't want the job of picking them for just ONE subguild, I couldn't even start with Nilaz)  I don't care if it's -9- Karma, meaning you HAVE to special app.  I think other people might agree with the -possibility- that one might be out there.  Or what have you.

[Marauder Moe]

I know there's been a staff side push for primary elements only.  Earth, fire, wind, and water are a very classic elemental quartet.  They make for a nice, neat, balanced and symmetrical "system".

The problem for me is that this is Zalanthas.  It's not a typical fantasy world.  It's not a balanced world.  It's a broken world.  The fact that the elements (Ruk, Suk-Krath, Whira, Vivadu, Drov, Elkros, Nilaz, and Krok) don't fit in a neat symmetrical chart seems appropriate for the theme of the game.  The laws of magick were ravaged by the Dragon.  What's left is but a portion of what was known in the time of the Council of Kings.

(I once filled out a chart based on the relationships between existing elements and in a "complete" map there'd be like 18 elements.  Missing ones are also thematically appropriate, like metal, steam, plantlife, holy.)

While the lesser elements and their spells/guilds may not have been as well conceived, they are still an organic part of the game's history.  That sort of emergent lore should be cherished and supported, not retconned.

Also it seems like the majority of players support having Nilaz, Drov, and Elkros sub-guilds, even if only 1-2 each instead of the full 4 that the prime elements enjoy.

[wizturbo]

I also feel that having Nilaz, Elkros and Drov unavailable for play in any form hurts the setting of the world. 

[Lizzie]

Drov and Elkros are odd ducks, I think. I think both are best served within the confines of a more robust, less split sorcery main guild.

The opposite of magick isn't mundane, however. The opposite of magick is anti-magick. This would imply a fully fleshed-out Nilaz main guild - which has been retconned. The fact that Nilaz was a primary guild, was something that could inspire fear in mages - especially the Gemmed. I can remember MANY hunts for Nilazis over the years, that gave templars something to do, gave their gemmed mages something to do, gave citizens something to do - sorcerers - not so much. Nilaz was the real freak-out guild within the cities.

[Jihelu]

I also feel that having Nilaz, Elkros and Drov unavailable for play in any form hurts the setting of the world.

I was thinking subguild nilazi would be a cool necromancer/warlock/spooky type character with the ability to actually /DO/ Something as opposed to using magick to give the good ole 'If my spells fail I'm completely FUCKED'.

So people could start up their Arthas wanna be's and what not. Would be fun.


As opposed to 'primary elements only' I really hope staff didn't remove Elkros/drov/etc over that. Something something Dark Sun having quasi-elementals and me just liking the flavor in general.


If I recall Nilazi aren't retconned. They just don't appear anymore for players. Same for any of the other guilds that were removed.

Nilazi are still out there. Somewhere. Hiding.

[Akaramu]

As one of those players who never enjoyed mundane play quite as much as mages, I feel like I should speak up. Warning: this is going to be long-winded. I'm not good at boiling my thoughts and feelings down to the essence. Sorry!

I've always enjoyed full guild Whirans the most because they were about the only class that allowed me to 'explore' a bit (as a person with autism and NO direction sense) without having to make a new character after each 'exploration' trip. From how I understand the new subguilds, I can no longer be a peaceful explorer with a security blanket that made exploring fun for my handicapped brain. I never cared about messing with or killing other PCs. I could live with about... 5-6 Whiran spells that would allow me to enjoy my peaceful explorer types and I'd never need another spell. But I can now not have these 5-6 spells together. They've been split up.

Speaking of my OOC lack of direction sense: I'm having similar issues with sneak type characters. I feel that in order to play them well, you need to know the ins and outs of certain aspects of the code, and I SUCK at figuring out things from a code perspective. Zalanthas is all music and images in my head... wait, what code? Can staff see how often I typo the simplest commands, sometimes several times in a row? I don't enjoy 'finding out IC' if finding out IC means trial and error and lots of dead / no longer fun PCs. Also, my lack of direction sense really hurts me when trying to play successful sneaky type roles (spoiler: they're not even halfway successful, ever.)

I would loooove to play a Drovian with nothing but sirihish and THAT ONE SPELL because I like to know what's going on and what other PCs are up to, and I love the stories of this game. I'm not out to spoil anyone's fun and tell everyone your secrets. I just wanna see the stories, man! 

To put it simply: I'm not good at mundanes roles for a variety of reasons (except crafters) and I suck at playing them. I don't enjoy mundane play nearly as much as magick. I don't care about getting 'powerful' quickly (I never succeeded at this with any of my mages anyway), I simply want to have my fun without having to deal with the kind of gameplay that I SUCK AT. Sure, I could play crafter after crafter, but... that would get old fast. Or I could play more warriors that live forever and get stored because they're stuck in a clan where everyone plays other times than I do, or where I get yelled at or called a pansy IC because OOC, as a player, I cannot handle the wilderness. Or I could play more sneak types that have the life span of a kankfly.

Maybe I should really play another psionicist before they get changed, too.

p.s. I love social roles but my offpeakness makes it next to impossible for me to be part of the political game. Spells and craftings are about the only offpeak activities I can rely on. And maybe the Byn when it's super duper active.

[Malken]

Let's be honest, the only reason staff took out drovians is because they were sick of us playing drovians just so we could watch other people mudsex.

[Synthesis]

Just go ranger/whira-travel, dude.  All the exploration you want, you can quit out wherever you want, and once you get skilled up, you can fight off 99.9% of the shit out there in the wilderness.  The other 0.09% you can probably hide/sneak past.  The remaining 0.01%...deal with it.

Unless your point was "I really like annoying the shit out of people while being practically invulnerable to retaliation," which is how -most- full-guild Whirans seemed to be played.  Now, if you want to be invisible, you gotta find some mundane way to be an annoying shit, which is fine with me.

[Armaddict]

I have no desire for Drovians in their previous design to be added into the game again.  If they were completely overhauled to play a role entirely different than what they did before, I'd be for it.

Whiran-types are that role, and they are better at it than pure spy-classes against some targets, and incredibly worse at it against other targets under current code.  I don't feel the need for there to be another mage that does that better.

Akamaru's post about exploration is what I was talking about in mine to hopeandsorrow, though.  There's a serious aversion to risk, which is sensible but also a deprivation to yourself under the current uhm...patch.

[Akaramu]

Just go ranger/whira-travel, dude.  All the exploration you want, you can quit out wherever you want, and once you get skilled up, you can fight off 99.9% of the shit out there in the wilderness.

I don't wanna fight anything out there in the wilderness. That's the thing. I don't enjoy killing stuff to 'skill up'. I just want to walk around, admire the sights, greb and not have to deal with combat spam that scrolls too fast for my poor brain to handle even when most non-autist people would think it's not scrolling fast at all.

The Byn is fun because of the RP and the stories, and because I can trust the combat spam to probably not kill me even when it overwhelms me completely.

[Armaddict]

You can still explore without fighting.  It's just not as easy, and yes, it requires more elaborate activity than what was necessary in getting-that-one-spell.

[Synthesis]

Untouchable with zero risk is kind of exactly what everyone who hated magick the way it was was complaining about.

Just sayin'.

"But I -liked- having lands and a title!" GUILLOTINE

[Malken]

If you want to be invisible all the time, go anywhere you want without any risk, avoid combat and be able to know what everything is going on in the world plot-wise, may I suggest trying to become Staff instead?

[Miradus]

Let's be honest, the only reason staff took out drovians is because they were sick of us playing drovians just so we could watch other people mudsex.

As a general rule, 90% of the playerbase is either mudsexing, talking about it, looking for someone to do it with, or on their way to do it.

I don't know how many times I've sat in the Gaj, a rough and tumble place, and the only conversation to be overhead for HOURS was two people going back and forth between "No, YOU'RE cuter ... teehee ... No, YOU'RE cuter".

I seriously almost gave up in the first month of playing because that sort of stuff seemed to constitute the majority of the conversations and roleplay I kept running into. Then I moved north of the shield wall where people seemed to be more interested in actually getting out of the taverns and doing things.

A plot raffle? A unique scar or tattoo? Why don't we take Cayuga's idea of stirring up plots to the next level? Be the player who gets out and hustles the most, creates the most interaction, and involves the largest number of people and you get a no-limits special app. You win the raffle, buddy. Good job. Here's your Nilazi. Go stir up some more shit.

[Riev]

In my experience, the dumbfucks at the Gaj playing grabass while the proper drunks are trying to get some peace, end up getting punched in the face.

I wish there wasn't SUCH a disparate population between "people who like to sit at the Gaj and shoot the shit" and "I want to be useful so I WILL NEVER BE IN A TAVERN EVER".

It can be hard to find you wanna-do-shit fuckers when you never socialize or let me know you exist.

[Jihelu]

Let's be honest, the only reason staff took out drovians is because they were sick of us playing drovians just so we could watch other people mudsex.

As a general rule, 90% of the playerbase is either mudsexing, talking about it, looking for someone to do it with, or on their way to do it.

I don't know how many times I've sat in the Gaj, a rough and tumble place, and the only conversation to be overhead for HOURS was two people going back and forth between "No, YOU'RE cuter ... teehee ... No, YOU'RE cuter".

I seriously almost gave up in the first month of playing because that sort of stuff seemed to constitute the majority of the conversations and roleplay I kept running into. Then I moved north of the shield wall where people seemed to be more interested in actually getting out of the taverns and doing things.

A plot raffle? A unique scar or tattoo? Why don't we take Cayuga's idea of stirring up plots to the next level? Be the player who gets out and hustles the most, creates the most interaction, and involves the largest number of people and you get a no-limits special app. You win the raffle, buddy. Good job. Here's your Nilazi. Go stir up some more shit.

No, you're cuter.

[Miradus]

It can be hard to find you wanna-do-shit fuckers when you never socialize or let me know you exist.

I know, right?

In general, if you're a wanna-do-shit fucker looking for other wanna-do-shit fuckers, you'll find 300% more of them hanging out at the water hole in the grasslands than you ever will in a tavern.

Only three reasons I go to a tavern:

1. Sell my shit
2. Buy some shit
3. Train listen

[Akaramu]

If you want to be invisible all the time, go anywhere you want without any risk, avoid combat and be able to know what everything is going on in the world plot-wise, may I suggest trying to become Staff instead?

I actually had the thought that I'd be a much better staffer than player, but looking at my available free time it comes down to 'writing' or 'staffing' and my readers want the next book. 

I don't mind risk, by the way. As long as it's a purely IC risk and not decided by my ability to keep up with fast scrolling text, or type (and not typo) the right command fast enough. Because losing to that feels OOC and just isn't fun.

Untouchable with zero risk is kind of exactly what everyone who hated magick the way it was was complaining about.

They complained when it messed with their game. If it didn't mess with their game, they didn't even know it was there.

[wizturbo]

This thread is going a bit off topic.  Can we steer it back towards the subject please?

[Armaddict]

Please note when I talk about risk aversion, I'm not trying to shame anyone.  I think it's natural to value survival, and even a big part of the game and having characters behave realistically.

But what you're basically saying is that losing your character to combat is not okay to you and so you'd like to play mages as they were, and that's a very disheartening statement that's really hard to get around in a MUD with automated combat, and is demonstrative of some of the qualms I often ran into with how they were.

I, also, had the thought that you sounded like you'd enjoy being a storyteller, as long as you were given the ability to actually inject things into stories.

I had always thought of this as a positive side effect of stripping down the full classes...but again, I'm not a consistent mage player at all because of reasons that have been gone over.  I'm not sure how to get around this in a way that gets people what they want.

[Akaramu]

But what you're basically saying is that losing your character to combat is not okay to you and so you'd like to play mages as they were, and that's a very disheartening statement that's really hard to get around in a MUD with automated combat, and is demonstrative of some of the qualms I often ran into with how they were.

I don't mind risk, by the way. As long as it's a purely IC risk and not decided by my ability to keep up with fast scrolling text, or type (and not typo) the right command fast enough. Because losing to that feels OOC and just isn't fun.

To add:

I don't mind getting killed by templars
I don't mind getting stabbed by assassins
I don't mind having my head chomped off by that pretty flower I didn't know was dangerous
I don't mind dying to a failed climb check
I don't like dying because my brain couldn't keep up with the text and I missed that line that should have told me to run. And then missed that other line that should have told me to 'stand' before typing 'flee'.

Anyway: Some of us have legit reasons for wanting full elementalist roles back. It's not always about wanting to 'git gud fast', or about trying to mess with your game.