Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Riev]

Probably, but I'm sure its a real hassle, and last I knew it was Producer+ that had access to that in the first place. So if there are egregious complaints, they can look them up and handle them, but after 2-3 days, its a bit too late to deal with the fallout.

Its not ALL PCs, and not ALL magickers, but I've seen a few that have basically had imms assigned to them, because the stuff they were doing would constitute larger world responses that just aren't coded into the game. While I know it was fun and entertaining for them, I've had staff tell me that even as my clan imms, they've never actually seen me play (and in fact, have punished me based on OTHER people's reports before asking me my side).

What does this have to do with the topic? The feeling that 'full guild magickers' were just too powerful to allow PCs to play, despite the fact that they were allowed for almost the entire life of the game up until this point. I can't accept that it was done as a balancing act, but more to reinforce that "magick is a part of the world, and ANYONE can be affected by it, whether they want to or not". I'm totally down with that. Been a thief your whole life, and now you're a damned filthy viv on top of it? A hardened Arm Private and one day in a sandstorm, everyone notices that the wind and sand don't seem to be touching you? Oh shit.

But I just also want the opportunity for "my parents were magickers, my grandfather was touched by krath, and when I was born, I wasn't just touched... everything in my blood screamed of the rukkian element".

I'm not saying I dislike the subguilds. I think they're really great, and will PROBABLY use one on my next PC. I just know I'll miss having the full guild option.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I don't think powerful throw-away PCs should be encouraged, except those that are thoroughly vetted by Staff, or actually run by Staff for a specific purpose.

Too many dipshits over the years, the karma system is nowhere near perfect, and it only takes one jackass to make things a lot more annoying for everyone else (even if he happens to be having a grand old time).

I mean, on the one hand, you complain about feeling like not wasting months of your life training up a mundane...but you want to play a PC that can waste months of someone else's life who played a mundane.  Do you not see how that is blatantly hypocritical?  Do you think you're above "wasting time" now that you've "exhausted the content" or something?

I guess, I don't few it as hypocritical because I don't aim to kill/grief, destroy people's effort.

I think you're assuming an adversarial relationship mean's I'm running about PK'ing folks.

Nah, see that's why I liked magick, because I was able to actually prevent it from happening to me.  I'd be a dick like... with an insult or I'd stake a good grebbing spot and try to run folks away... you know simple low level stuff.

The usual response before I discovered I Could be a walking stat generator with a Ruk was most players just lamely PK'ed me... like not even throwing an argument.

Like literally bro it go "Hey fucker, this muh sifting spot!" -me.

Kill hopeandsorrow - them.


This was a pretty much running theme till the Ruk.

That character that can waste month's of -someone else's life- still exists.  Still there.  All those scary 'I win' buttons every talks about are still freaking there people.  They aren't gone.  They might even be easier to get to now that you would have less spells to wade through.  People seem to be forgetting this.  Except now that "I win" button might be backed up with poisoned knives/arrows, charge, trample, bash, kick, and weapon skills.  I'm still scared to face a warrior with magick weapons because I've seen what they can do with a non combat character.

But...something that always bothered me.  If you put in -months of your life- getting bad ass as a mundane, that gives you the right to waste  someone else's time with your powerful warrior/ranger/assassin?  That's a little hypocritical.  I kinda thought Arm was supposed to be harsh, and unfair, and unforgiving.

I mean killing someone and -wasting months of their time- is kinda the same whether it's a peraine arrow or it's a fireball right?  Same result.  It just took you longer to get that peraine arrow. 

And, I mean I get upset for a couple hours after I die for even short lived characters.  Because that concept is gone.  Can't just make the same guy again doing the same thing or I feel bad about that.  But I don't feel that time I spent was "wasted" ever.  I did things, I tried things, I probably learned things as well. 

Do people really feel that it's a waste of time?  I mean you still got your enjoyment there when your character was around.  Least I hope so. 

Do people think living to an old age that your stats drop to the point you can no longer even wear clothing without being overencumbered means you -won- or something?  I'm not trying to be jerk, I'm genuinely curious.  I guess I might get bored if  I lived like 50 years on a character again.

[Synthesis]

No.  It isn't the same.  Not at all.  Not even close.

[Shoka Windrunner]

No.  It isn't the same.  Not at all.  Not even close.

Then if you'll explain it to me, I'd be willing to listen.

[Riev]

Armageddon - Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal (But only if you've put in an arbitrary and debatably sufficient amount of effort into your PC).

[Shoka Windrunner]

Armageddon - Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal (But only if you've put in an arbitrary and debatably sufficient amount of effort into your PC).

That's why I want to understand.  Arm isn't really made to be "fair" in that way.  So I really do want to hear it, cause I'm missing it I guess.

[hopeandsorrow]

I dunno about the synth, but my biggest grip about the Mundane grind and getting PKed for flimsey reasons, is yea it feels like a waste.

I learned early on it way smarter and more rewarding to grind out characters first before role playing.

Because you don't even have to be antagonistic for some one to just kill you for 'reasons'.  Usually targeting you specifically because they know they can get away with it.


Magick meant I could grind a little bit, then return to role playing feeling a little on par with the griefers, so I wasn't just another easy target.

It's not a major complaint and I don't think staff need to crack down on PK'ing, I just liked magick cause I could real easily rebuff those types and create a little tiny plot about some rogue witch. 


Getting hunted is kind of fun.


Wanna do that on a ruk?  3ish days played.

Wanna do that on a warrior or ranger? Prepare to stat reroll a few times, grind for a couple months and hope that no dbag magicker or half giant decides le pk rp you before you can have fun with the pc.

[Synthesis]

No.  It isn't the same.  Not at all.  Not even close.

Then if you'll explain it to me, I'd be willing to listen.

It's the difference between winning a poker game and cheating at poker.

It's the difference between ransacking a house with a warrant and doing it on a hunch.

It's the difference between being passed over for promotion by someone who has worked for the company longer than you, versus the boss's son being promoted after a month.

Nobody says the playing field has to be equal, but if there isn't some element of RISK and WORK put into the reward, it's going to violate our innate, human sense of fundamental fairness.

There's basically one argument against that:  there's no guarantee of fairness.

Okay, fine, but that's a trite way of ignoring the negative consequences of the unfair policy/mechanic.

The argument against that is: well, the game has been doing just fine despite it.

To which I'd say:  has it?

Armageddon - Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal (But only if you've put in an arbitrary and debatably sufficient amount of effort into your PC).

Notice hardly anyone is making the argument that mundane PCs should be able to grind up to badassery in the same amount of time that a full-guild magicker used to be able to?  If it really doesn't matter if you die, what is the problem with a warrior reaching full-branched mastery in 15 days as opposed to 100?

That's called "being inconsistent with your argument."

[Riev]

I'm failing to see how your 'difference between' scenarios are comparable to "full guild magicker" and "subguild magicker". The only thing you've mentioned that I can recollect, is that "No" and "Not fair" and "just trust me".

If you're going to be trite in your responses, so am I. Either participate in the discussion, or don't, but stop pulling college-level debate class and philosophical theories in a fucking MUD Discussion Board. Some of us want to understand your position, not be TOLD your position and be forced to accept it as truth.

[Shoka Windrunner]

No.  It isn't the same.  Not at all.  Not even close.

Then if you'll explain it to me, I'd be willing to listen.

It's the difference between winning a poker game and cheating at poker.

It's the difference between ransacking a house with a warrant and doing it on a hunch.

It's the difference between being passed over for promotion by someone who has worked for the company longer than you, versus the boss's son being promoted after a month.

Nobody says the playing field has to be equal, but if there isn't some element of RISK and WORK put into the reward, it's going to violate our innate, human sense of fundamental fairness.

There's basically one argument against that:  there's no guarantee of fairness.

Okay, fine, but that's a trite way of ignoring the negative consequences of the unfair policy/mechanic.

The argument against that is: well, the game has been doing just fine despite it.

To which I'd say:  has it?

Armageddon - Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal (But only if you've put in an arbitrary and debatably sufficient amount of effort into your PC).

Notice hardly anyone is making the argument that mundane PCs should be able to grind up to badassery in the same amount of time that a full-guild magicker used to be able to?  If it really doesn't matter if you die, what is the problem with a warrior reaching full-branched mastery in 15 days as opposed to 100?

That's called "being inconsistent with your argument."

Honestly.  I'm fine with the idea of a boost to mundanes.  Would make them more fun.  Or at least start with slightly higher skills or something.  But that's not this thread I guess.

Cheating - I still don't get this.  The code is the code right?  How is it cheating?

Warrants - Wait...what?  Are you talking about being robbed?

Promotion - Okay, I sort of get that.  I think.  Would you like it if mundane's were a bit faster or gicks were a bit slower?

I think I'm getting that you would like more of a balance in the grind.  How about this.  Gickers start with their starter spell skills improved.  Mundanes start with their starter skills improved.  Mundanes are increased in growth rate, gickers are slowed down some, everyone meets in the middle.

My concern is people would still be talking about the "I win" button they think 'gicks have.

Here is the thing about those "I win" buttons:

1.  Think someone can speak clearly when they are doubled over in pain?

2.  Think someone can 'gick you from three rooms away?  (well in some cases maybe, but not many)

3.  Think a gick can do anything with their arms pinned to their side?

4.  Think a gick can do anything with your mount standing on their head?

5.  Think a gick can do anything when they are sprawled ass on the ground?

6.  Think a gick can see your desert camo/Rynthi ass sneaking up on them?

7.  Think a gick can see where you are hiding behind that boulder?

I'll tell you, even common sense should tell you the answer is no, and the subguilds that might counter any of these aren't near as good as having those skills in your main guild.  And now you can get that subguild with the 'gicks in it that balance it out.  Be careful, this is really double edged.  The hilt might have thorns in it too.

Now think about the fact that all of those things, a gick can do to you now.  Or at the very least can be better able to avoid those things now, or in some cases, reverse them on you.

If you thought that "I win" button was bad before.  Think about it a minute.  This isn't a move towards balance...really.  There is some of that in there, but if you got an "I win" button, now I have ways of making sure you can't stop me from doing it.  I got ways of making sure you can't flee.  I got ways to soften you from a distance and still roll in with full mana.  I can slip that knife in your spine and then gick you.  A lot of those "I win" buttons were combinations of spells as well.  So...some of them are gone.  Not all though.  And now it just might require two gicks to pull off or something.  So now there are two of them you have to deal with.  Twice the mana, twice the spells, twice the buffs, twice the set of otherwise non-existent mundane skills.

I hate this idea of an "I win" button.  It's faulty (I won't say it's false all the time though), and can happen, but again, subdue and peraine and backstab and bash and charge and trample and disarm can happen too.  And more reliably often as well.

You were probably safer when I couldn't flip you on -your- ass when you kicked at me.  Then you won't be fleeing or stopping me from 'mon un death kill gib' all over you.  So this didn't fix the I can kill you with 'shorter play time' if you thought it did.  I'm not sure people realize just exactly how rough or bad this might have become. 

Arm isn't and wasn't fair.  But there was a bit of rock paper scissors.  That seems a bit less NOW because I might be able to have rock and scissors, instead of just rock.  I agree wholeheartedly about that one Whiran thing.  It was pretty unblockable and unstoppable.  I agree that I wish 'gicks weren't better 'mundane' guilds in some fashions.  I could give you what I would consider a better edited (read: stuff removed) spell list for a lot of the gick guilds that would keep things more interesting, with less "I win" buttons people are afraid of and less I'm a better (insert mundane class here) than you are.  Krathi's should still get most of their thing, cause it's kinda their whole thing.

But my idea about mundane skills get a bit of a boost, magick skills getting a bit of a nerf...would that alleviate the whole 'time invested' thing?  I'd rather it went that way than nerfing magick back to what it once was.  Cause it was once worse than being a mundane to even reach a point you could survive, (by that I mean, feed and water yourself in some fashion) and I think that's why the change was made.  Also, I don't think many people want to spend 100 days played to be considered one of the elite of their profession.  It's a lot.

[Synthesis]

I'm failing to see how your 'difference between' scenarios are comparable to "full guild magicker" and "subguild magicker". The only thing you've mentioned that I can recollect, is that "No" and "Not fair" and "just trust me".

If you're going to be trite in your responses, so am I. Either participate in the discussion, or don't, but stop pulling college-level debate class and philosophical theories in a fucking MUD Discussion Board. Some of us want to understand your position, not be TOLD your position and be forced to accept it as truth.

I've never said that magick and mundane should be on an equal footing.  Being "somewhat" more powerful is not a problem.  If I wanted everyone on the same level, there would be one class, one weapon, no stats--go.

The goals:  less -inequality-.  More risk-based reward.  Less invulnerability.  More careful consideration of IC consequences.  More OOC investment in IC survival.  This "all or nothing" line of reasoning you're going down is exactly what you bemoan:  trite and sophomoric.

A warrior/devastation will always be more ganky than a warrior/mercenary.  But a warrior/slipknife will also be.  Neither is as ganky as a full-guild Krathi.  Neither will be even close to as dangerous, on even -nearly- the same timeline as a full-guild krathi. Those are what you call "significant differences."  If you want to entirely abstract the end result as  a categorical "more powerful" vs "less powerful" without quantizing it...that exactly what you bemoan:  trite and sophomoric.

I'm sorry, but the proof is in the pudding.  Nobody is really "okay" with getting ganked.  We're "more okay-ish" with getting ganked by mundanes, because we know they put in work to get there.  It is implicit in this argument that we are not okay with them not putting in work, because almost nobody has ever argued (with the exception of weapon skills, which are just legitimately terrible to grind) for them to reach mastery sooner.

Full-guild magickers were always a way for the privileged to git gud with no grind.  The same arguments apply whether it's PK or it's just "being annoying in other various ways."  It's always been a sore point.

Notice again that literally nobody (that I can remember) in this thread has made the argument "fuck these subguilds, they're too OP."  That's what you call a "significant difference" from the previous state of affairs.  Edit:  well, actually, Shoka just posted some highly-theoretical non-reality-based scenarios of subguild magick OPness.  But...let's stick to facts here, and not feverish nightmare scenarios.

[Synthesis]

No.  It isn't the same.  Not at all.  Not even close.

Then if you'll explain it to me, I'd be willing to listen.

It's the difference between winning a poker game and cheating at poker.

It's the difference between ransacking a house with a warrant and doing it on a hunch.

It's the difference between being passed over for promotion by someone who has worked for the company longer than you, versus the boss's son being promoted after a month.

Nobody says the playing field has to be equal, but if there isn't some element of RISK and WORK put into the reward, it's going to violate our innate, human sense of fundamental fairness.

There's basically one argument against that:  there's no guarantee of fairness.

Okay, fine, but that's a trite way of ignoring the negative consequences of the unfair policy/mechanic.

The argument against that is: well, the game has been doing just fine despite it.

To which I'd say:  has it?

Armageddon - Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal (But only if you've put in an arbitrary and debatably sufficient amount of effort into your PC).

Notice hardly anyone is making the argument that mundane PCs should be able to grind up to badassery in the same amount of time that a full-guild magicker used to be able to?  If it really doesn't matter if you die, what is the problem with a warrior reaching full-branched mastery in 15 days as opposed to 100?

That's called "being inconsistent with your argument."

Honestly.  I'm fine with the idea of a boost to mundanes.  Would make them more fun.  Or at least start with slightly higher skills or something.  But that's not this thread I guess.

Cheating - I still don't get this.  The code is the code right?  How is it cheating?

Warrants - Wait...what?  Are you talking about being robbed?

Promotion - Okay, I sort of get that.  I think.  Would you like it if mundane's were a bit faster or gicks were a bit slower?

I think I'm getting that you would like more of a balance in the grind.  How about this.  Gickers start with their starter spell skills improved.  Mundanes start with their starter skills improved.  Mundanes are increased in growth rate, gickers are slowed down some, everyone meets in the middle.

My concern is people would still be talking about the "I win" button they think 'gicks have.

Here is the thing about those "I win" buttons:

1.  Think someone can speak clearly when they are doubled over in pain?

2.  Think someone can 'gick you from three rooms away?  (well in some cases maybe, but not many)

3.  Think a gick can do anything with their arms pinned to their side?

4.  Think a gick can do anything with your mount standing on their head?

5.  Think a gick can do anything when they are sprawled ass on the ground?

6.  Think a gick can see your desert camo/Rynthi ass sneaking up on them?

7.  Think a gick can see where you are hiding behind that boulder?

I'll tell you, even common sense should tell you the answer is no, and the subguilds that might counter any of these aren't near as good as having those skills in your main guild.  And now you can get that subguild with the 'gicks in it that balance it out.  Be careful, this is really double edged.  The hilt might have thorns in it too.

Now think about the fact that all of those things, a gick can do to you now.  Or at the very least can be better able to avoid those things now, or in some cases, reverse them on you.

If you thought that "I win" button was bad before.  Think about it a minute.  This isn't a move towards balance...really.  There is some of that in there, but if you got an "I win" button, now I have ways of making sure you can't stop me from doing it.  I got ways of making sure you can't flee.  I got ways to soften you from a distance and still roll in with full mana.  I can slip that knife in your spine and then gick you.  A lot of those "I win" buttons were combinations of spells as well.  So...some of them are gone.  Not all though.  And now it just might require two gicks to pull off or something.  So now there are two of them you have to deal with.  Twice the mana, twice the spells, twice the buffs, twice the set of otherwise non-existent mundane skills.

I hate this idea of an "I win" button.  It's faulty (I won't say it's false all the time though), and can happen, but again, subdue and peraine and backstab and bash and charge and trample and disarm can happen too.  And more reliably often as well.

You were probably safer when I couldn't flip you on -your- ass when you kicked at me.  Then you won't be fleeing or stopping me from 'mon un death kill gib' all over you.  So this didn't fix the I can kill you with 'shorter play time' if you thought it did.  I'm not sure people realize just exactly how rough or bad this might have become. 

Arm isn't and wasn't fair.  But there was a bit of rock paper scissors.  That seems a bit less NOW because I might be able to have rock and scissors, instead of just rock.  I agree wholeheartedly about that one Whiran thing.  It was pretty unblockable and unstoppable.  I agree that I wish 'gicks weren't better 'mundane' guilds in some fashions.  I could give you what I would consider a better edited (read: stuff removed) spell list for a lot of the gick guilds that would keep things more interesting, with less "I win" buttons people are afraid of and less I'm a better (insert mundane class here) than you are.  Krathi's should still get most of their thing, cause it's kinda their whole thing.

But my idea about mundane skills get a bit of a boost, magick skills getting a bit of a nerf...would that alleviate the whole 'time invested' thing?  I'd rather it went that way than nerfing magick back to what it once was.  Cause it was once worse than being a mundane to even reach a point you could survive, (by that I mean, feed and water yourself in some fashion) and I think that's why the change was made.  Also, I don't think many people want to spend 100 days played to be considered one of the elite of their profession.  It's a lot.

I'm not going to get into specifics of what magickers can and can't do.

Let's just say that there is zero truth to the notion that it's better to have "kick" and "bash."

At 15 days, you might be able to reverse most kicks and bashes as a warrior, if you -really- grind that grind hard.  At 15 days as a Krathi, you could probably destroy an entire unit of Bynners who spent 15 days grinding that grind.  That argument is just...absurd.

I'm not going to explain unfairness to you, if you can't understand it a priori.  If you're fine with the cops turning your house upside down just because they felt like it...well...that's a very strange thing.

[Riev]

So, as with most threads, Synth knows the code of the game, flaunts it, tells those of us who don't that we're idiots, and that if we even want to think beyond possible coded OP OP, we're idiots.

Boy, this is a great community of people.


I still think the argument here is "People put in <x> time to their character and their grind, and full-guild magickers can do more, in that same amount of time, codedly". Yet, "skilling up faster" isn't the point, and "breaking down some of their spells into subguilds" fixed the issue entirely.

I'm just still not convinced. "If you don't understand it a priori". "trite". "Sophmoric".

Holy shit have I never felt more like an elitist academic wants to win their argument based on advanced English rather than the discussion hand. I suppose we're not allowed in discussion on these boards without a minimum B.S. degree from a top 12 collegiate institution.

I guess I'm out.

[Miradus]

I guess I'm out.

I'll join you over at the kiddie table. I'm out too.

Partly because I don't think I understand the argument some of the people are trying to make, but also because it's a foolish waste of time to try to convince someone who doesn't have the power to change it.

If I feel like I have a decent point to make on this then I'll send in a request where it will be seen and responded to by someone who matters.

[Akaramu]

We already said we'd be okay with making full guild elementalists grindier. Removing nil reach was suggested. Making each spell require a component was suggested. I wouldn't even care if it took 15 days played to branch a single spell. NOT ONE PRO MAGICK PLAYER DISAGREED WITH THIS.

Why are we still talking about 15 day Krathi vs 15 day warrior when the above was already discussed and agreed on? Le sigh.

I'm out of here. You guys keep beating the dead horse with your sticks and juggling the power argument that was swept off the table long ago. I just hope staff heard the real arguments that were being made a while back.

[Synthesis]

The idea that people are seriously going to be okay with it taking 15 days played to branch a single spell (not an entire tier of spells) is preposterous.  330 days played to max out?  Yeah.  Right.  Even playing the game like it's a full-time job, that's 3 years.

I mean, okay...fine...if you're really okay with that...uh...good on ya, I guess.  Congratulations, you're a martyr for full-guild magick.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I'm not going to get into specifics of what magickers can and can't do.

Let's just say that there is zero truth to the notion that it's better to have "kick" and "bash."

At 15 days, you might be able to reverse most kicks and bashes as a warrior, if you -really- grind that grind hard.  At 15 days as a Krathi, you could probably destroy an entire unit of Bynners who spent 15 days grinding that grind.  That argument is just...absurd.

I'm not going to explain unfairness to you, if you can't understand it a priori.  If you're fine with the cops turning your house upside down just because they felt like it...well...that's a very strange thing.

Okay, let's calm down.  Don't misquote me please cause it gets us nowhere but into a semantics debate.  But I'll clear it up anyway.

I didn't say it was 'better' to have kick and bash.  I said that if you have kick and bash, you can 'kick' that magick out of that gicks mouth and 'bash' that asshole to the floor, stopping his gicking.  That's all the balance a mundane ever had against a gick.  Also include, trample, charge, sneak, hide, backstab, poison, archery, and subdue, and probably some other things I'm not thinking about.

A Krathi can probably destroy one, two Bynners if they don't even try any of the above.  Four or Five will be way more likely to end in their deaths.  I'm assuming in your presumption they just ride in the room and start swinging, not doing any of the above actions that give them a possible advantage.  If there are 4 people kicking, bashing, charging and trampling one guy, he might get one of them, but he'll be to busy being doubled over or on the ground to do much more than that. I don't find it unreasonable, based on the setting, that it takes a group of mundanes to hunt down one full gick.  Also, this is kind of the point of a Krathi.  AND IT STILL IS FOR DEVESTATION KRATHI'S!  (I'm emphasizing because I dont think you realize things aren't as different as you might think and this is an important point for me to make clear)  They are still there.  Before, using a variety of skills, maybe surprise or not, and keeping that 'kick gick' ready to go, means that they could win sometimes with minimal to no losses.  That's not counting trying to be smart and volleying some poisoned arrows/throwing knives before the melee charge.

Now though, you have a rogue gick warrior/devestation krathi, who's been in the wilds, learned to fill both hands and ride, magick weapons and all, with skills and stats to back them, who can do the same things you can do.  Yeah, that guy who lives out in the wastes 99% of the time as a rogue gick, he's probably been on the grind a bit.  Has to because there aren't that many places you can plop down and just stay forever without someone finding you there, or just a beastie wandering in, and that would be boring anyway.  No one is going to do that so they stay 'fair' on the grind.   He probably is as good with his warrior skills if not more than the Bynners.  And he's got his skills.  Yeah, you lead with an arrow volley.  Yeah you ride in and outnumber him.  But (unlike full gicks, depending on subguild) he's staying on that mount.  He's still got the magick weapons but now he can use them way better.  You can't knock him off his mount.  You can't kick him.  You can't trample him.  You can't bash him.  You're down to melee and parry and shield use and disarm.  And he still has his BOOM your dead spell and can do it while trading blow for blow with you.  Better hope that poison works on them arrows, and fast.  He's way more dangerous to that group of the Byn now.  That's not absurd.  15 days grind with a devestation Krathi is probably a worse deal for a mundane, because 2/3's of the stuff he might have worked on magick wise, isn't there any longer and what he can work on, he can do while also working on the rest of his warrior skills. 

That isn't absurd man.  Nothing I've said above is false.  You want a softer squishier Krathi who can barely ride or you want an armored, shield wielding, bashing, kicking, disarming whirlwind of "mon un burn crisp lava' death?  I know which one I'd rather deal with.

The one I can kick, bash, disarm, knock off his mount cause he can't ride, trampled, charged over Krathi who might kill half of us if the RNG gods frown on us that day.  Not the one that could potentially go toe to toe with four of you and likely win that completely and grin about getting a bunch of neet lewt from your corpses.   Yes, Mr. Squishy Krathi can still toss out those mantis head summoning spells, but not as reliably if you try to stop him.

I understand now you were saying it was unfair in those examples you were given.  I can get that.  And since someone will say it, I'll just go ahead and do it now, "Arm ain't fair."  Sucks but it's true. 

And if you were referencing my 'theorycrafting' or something with your 'a priori' comment, I've lost more gicks to people doing stuff like this to me than I want to count.

But again, I'll ask you:

Would it make it better, in a fairness fashion, if mundanes got a bit of a skill increase buff and spells got a bit of a skill increase nerf?

Because I think I'm getting this is your issue, and if I'm completely off base, then say so.   

Edit before posting:  Riev has just said that you know the code better than us.  I guess I'm saying, that if you do, you are ignoring bits of it to try to push a point home that based on faulty logic or don't know it as well as you think you do.   

[Synthesis]

You either have very little experience with full-guild magick, or you're purposefully ignoring what you do know.

Either way, like I said:  I'm not going to get into it.

[Shoka Windrunner]

You still didn't answer my question.  So fine.  Until you do, I'm going to figure you bowed out of this and drop it.

[Synthesis]

To answer your question:

Mundane skill increase rates are fine.  If it took 60 days for a full-guild mage to max out, I would probably be okay-ish with that, as long as that was "core set" of spells maxed out.  Not "20 days to max out your core set" and "40 days to max out utility at your leisure."

There is no way a warrior/devastation or ranger/devastation krathi is even close to the level of WTFPWNage as a full-guild krathi was.

I mean...I assaulted a full-guild krathi once as a 60-day ranger, with a 60-day warrior.  It was a complete shit-show.  Didn't even touch him.  We were both dead before our first command lag wore off.  I don't even know what you're on about, unless you just have no idea what "maxed out" meant for certain full-guild mages.

[Armaddict]

I'm confused where this turned bad-blooded.

I will say that I consider full-mage/extended sub the other side of moderate spectrum of full-guild/mage sub.  I don't think that's bad.  I have my own specific long-developed qualms, but most of them are oriented around the 'mages do it better' idea; I don't hold it against any of you to play mages and enjoy them more, I just get really frustrated that it leads to the ideas of more mage involvement that mundanes just have to swallow.  Because 'mages do it better and so we will use them' was an actual thing for at least a decent period of time, making non-karma-playing people feel less and less relevant.  I don't think this is still the case, and I think some of us have lingering aftereffects of that era.

However, I don't think -any- of this is what was talked about for the reason why full-mages were taken away.  Not that I recall anyway.  Like I said, I'd want Drovians -completely- revamped, but other than that...that wasn't the problem.  Not to a lot of us.

However, this apparently turned into a discussion on whether we should or shouldn't return full-guilds to the game, and I don't think that's really up to us.  Staff is pretty notoriously hard to get to roll-back their decisions for whatever reasons; we've talked about that on other issues.  I'd rather us try to talk about what was -there- with the full guilds and what we can do to get some of those feelings back for those players while maintaining the game-design that is currently being moved for.

Are there any ideas on -that-?  Have there been any players/big fans of the full guilds who have found neat things in their new incarnation that can give back some of those wants?

(As an addition: I don't think Synthesis is attacking you personally.  Attacking the words he uses and such is kind of like attacking him -for- being smart.  I do the same kind of thing, just because I have been involved in debate, persuasive writing, etc.  Attacking your ideas and the grounds it depends on, stands on, and drawing inferences from it are par for the course in argument.  It's actually the Modus Operandi -of- effective argument.  It isn't mean.  If you've already shown his inferences and correlations to be false or misleading, just move on to the next step.  Since it is the internet, sometimes arguments get stubborn.)

[wizturbo]

The idea that people are seriously going to be okay with it taking 15 days played to branch a single spell (not an entire tier of spells) is preposterous.  330 days played to max out?  Yeah.  Right.  Even playing the game like it's a full-time job, that's 3 years.

I mean, okay...fine...if you're really okay with that...uh...good on ya, I guess.  Congratulations, you're a martyr for full-guild magick.

We don't need to quantify things into days played so people like you can do your math and pretend this is some kind of well balanced combat risk v. reward simulator.  The fact is, days played doesn't mean anything.  It's a timer on the number of hours you've put into your character online. 

What Akaramu, and many others are advocating is that as a community many of us are fine with the notion that training magick could be either harder (components, no nil) or take longer, if that is what's required to reintroduce something we loved back into the game and squash whatever protests about balance concerns are out there.

As a side note, the fact that your core argument is that magickers can wipe out someone's investment in their character because they can become codedly stronger in less time is absurd to me in an RPI.  This is a storytelling game.  The players I want to play it are those who invest time, creative energy and passion into their characters, not "days played of combat spamming to git gud".  A day 1 Templar could wipe out the 'investment' of everyone they see in Allanak on their first day.  They could literally walk through the street and murder any PC they see with zero days played to use your terminology.  What about that Synthesis?  How are we going to balance that?  Should we make Templars need to spend 100 days played solo roleplaying in the Templar Academy before they can play in order to make sure everyone is 'investing' the same amount of time before they're allowed to be powerful?

Anyway, this thread is so far off topic that I don't see a prayer of it returning to what it's supposed to be about, which is reactions to the elementalist subguilds based on the last year of experience with them.  I look forward to the thread being locked, and another thread about the subject coming up again in a few months so this discussion can continue.

[Synthesis]

No, a templar cannot do that.  If they did, they'd be stored and probably banned for a while, and every player of a templar knows it, and that's why it doesn't happen.

Again...fairness does not mean equality.  Saudia Arabia...not equal, not fair.  Denmark...not equal, pretty fair by most reasonable standards.

Arguing that "them's the rules" is pretty facile.  It's like...arguing ethics from legal command theory.  Completely ignores all the negative consequences of "the rules" and the potential positive effects of changing said rules.

Anyway...if all y'all have left is weaksauce arguments like that, I'll just leave it alone, too.  I've already addressed them, and all I'm getting back is reiterations of the same.

Call me when the game is collapsing because subguild magick syngergy is too OP with mundanes skillsets or people literally start quitting because they can't ROFLstomp noobs at 5 days played.

[Shoka Windrunner]

To answer your question:

Mundane skill increase rates are fine.  If it took 60 days for a full-guild mage to max out, I would probably be okay-ish with that, as long as that was "core set" of spells maxed out.  Not "20 days to max out your core set" and "40 days to max out utility at your leisure."

There is no way a warrior/devastation or ranger/devastation krathi is even close to the level of WTFPWNage as a full-guild krathi was.

I mean...I assaulted a full-guild krathi once as a 60-day ranger, with a 60-day warrior.  It was a complete shit-show.  Didn't even touch him.  We were both dead before our first command lag wore off.  I don't even know what you're on about, unless you just have no idea what "maxed out" meant for certain full-guild mages.

Alright then.  I think the reason gicks increase at the rate they do, is that a full gick, (rogue especially) has a hard time even feeding themselves until certain things happen.  Certain subguilds can help, but not as much as you might think.  There are very few subguilds that I would even want to rely solely on to survive on for 3 days played that didn't involve going into, or being in, a city.  That being said, I think the buff to their skill increases was made before subguilds so I'll agree it probably needs looking at if that was what it was based on.  Attempts were made to address that in this thread.  Go reread it, since you don't seem to care about it.

I guess you didn't sneak/hide poison arrow/bash, charge, trample, kick him.  I'd bet your first command was 'kill krathi'.  Cause I've been on the receiving end.  And there is still a difference between 2 60 day doods and a unit of 4 or 5 Byn.  Action economy, and more people beating on you, means harder to not get dead.  I already said, I didn't find it unreasonable, based on docs and the world of this game, that it would take a group effort of mundanes to take one down.  It should I feel.  Not two 60 day guys.

But I can see why you are likely upset and taking the stand you are, if you lost a 60 day played character, (I'm assuming not that you just had them for two months).  I'd feel the same way.  Feel it was unfair.  It is actually.  I don't know that I ever felt, directly after, a character's death it was fair.  I'm upset for a few hours maybe at most.  You obviously had a lot invested and it hurt bad and you don't want it to happen again.  I get that.  But they aren't going to remove backstab with poison blades because it can mean instadeath in a one room apartment.  And, I do know what a full guild Krathi was like.  Played a few.  They can get tough. 

Sorry it happened, it sucks, but it really is Armageddon.  So I'm done for real with discussing this with you.  Your emotionally invested in this it seems like and you can't reason with emotion.  I'd suggest trying to read this thread again and see that for the most part we agree with you and made good suggestions for changing them. 

[Shoka Windrunner]

I'm confused where this turned bad-blooded.

I will say that I consider full-mage/extended sub the other side of moderate spectrum of full-guild/mage sub.  I don't think that's bad.  I have my own specific long-developed qualms, but most of them are oriented around the 'mages do it better' idea; I don't hold it against any of you to play mages and enjoy them more, I just get really frustrated that it leads to the ideas of more mage involvement that mundanes just have to swallow.  Because 'mages do it better and so we will use them' was an actual thing for at least a decent period of time, making non-karma-playing people feel less and less relevant.  I don't think this is still the case, and I think some of us have lingering aftereffects of that era.

However, I don't think -any- of this is what was talked about for the reason why full-mages were taken away.  Not that I recall anyway.  Like I said, I'd want Drovians -completely- revamped, but other than that...that wasn't the problem.  Not to a lot of us.

However, this apparently turned into a discussion on whether we should or shouldn't return full-guilds to the game, and I don't think that's really up to us.  Staff is pretty notoriously hard to get to roll-back their decisions for whatever reasons; we've talked about that on other issues.  I'd rather us try to talk about what was -there- with the full guilds and what we can do to get some of those feelings back for those players while maintaining the game-design that is currently being moved for.

Are there any ideas on -that-?  Have there been any players/big fans of the full guilds who have found neat things in their new incarnation that can give back some of those wants?

(As an addition: I don't think Synthesis is attacking you personally.  Attacking the words he uses and such is kind of like attacking him -for- being smart.  I do the same kind of thing, just because I have been involved in debate, persuasive writing, etc.  Attacking your ideas and the grounds it depends on, stands on, and drawing inferences from it are par for the course in argument.  It's actually the Modus Operandi -of- effective argument.  It isn't mean.  If you've already shown his inferences and correlations to be false or misleading, just move on to the next step.  Since it is the internet, sometimes arguments get stubborn.)

A redesign of spells that a full guild gets, a balancing of component usage in some manner would be needed too.  It's hard to say on here, but there are certain spells that are -too much- and do give a feeling of -fuck this game it isn't fair and I quit-. 

Get rid of those.  Maybe give a full guild some basic things that can allow themselves to eat and drink water, without going full on, grind them spells, to survive those early days.  Subguilds cover this, but only some of them, and often not well without tying you to a city.  (I'm not suggesting Ranger forage, but something, somehow)

If they can live without grinding and gitting gud on spells early on, then lowering the skill start base and skill up speed would work fine. 

I can also see possibly making more magick subguilds.  Survival Whiran (explorer Whiran?  Wanderlust Whiran? whatever you want to call it) maybe.  Akaramu can probably attest, along with me, that you don't need many Whiran spells to be a survivor and run around having fun without being a PKing monster.  Actually basically be UNABLE to be a PKing monster.