Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[wizturbo]

I'm so burned out before I even start on mundanes.  Unless have the updated how skills level yet?  Or will I be dedicating 6 hours a night for months just to see jman.

The 6 hours a night thing is totally not necessary.  In fact, you're wasting your time if you spend anywhere near that amount training.  If you train on something once per IC day, you're going to advance just as fast as if you spend all day training on that thing in most cases.  Granted, when I have a new character I tend to play a ton up front and wish my skills moved faster to reflect those hours played...  But the number of RL days that have passed is still relatively low.  In short, if you set your expectations for your mundane to go from novice to journeyman in a skill in only a half-month of IC time, you're going to feel the burn.  If you set expectations to get there by your character's first IC birthday?  Much more realistic.

I can't speak to combat PC's, as to this day I've yet to actually play one to reasonable levels of skill...  *duck*

[hopeandsorrow]

Still measuring months before a PC reaches any form of Competency (in my humble opinion).

I try not to meta it too much, but eh... yea lets not go into details needless to say, mundanes take time and dedication. (Which I respect players who love playing that way, just ain't fer me all the time)

AND seemingly a whole lot of unfun shit to get there.  (Which to a disadvantage I refuse to do, as gaming time = fun time, fuck unfun stuff).

Which if anything is this games true downfall, the market per say is delivering experience, immersion and fun in fractions of the time/energy that Arm takes.  Now nothing on the market is truly as good and well run as Armageddon is, in terms of RPI muds. It's hard to motivate one self to log in, to repeat the same steps, for months, to just reach "fun time!" when I got a whole steam's list of stuff that can literally deliver some form of interactive and social entertainment at literal fraction of time/energy cost. 

It's partly why the genre is sooo dead.  People aren't even motivated to strike out on their own with something and remain dedicated to it.

But I'm really pulling this whole thread off topic, which I apologize.

I'll miss magick that I got to play, because I found it happy medium.  I gave up ease of social interaction/clan play for a little bit more power.  I also enjoy the whole paranoia aspect of being ungemmed and further more enjoy adversarial relationships I could form and maintain because power was so easily within grasp.  Few weeks, maybe a RL month and I could survive/strive/rp in ways that mundanes can take months or pure rule breaking grinding to achieve.

I'll really miss the magick I never got to see or play first hand, cause heh, that experience will most likely never happen even I spent my time being a loyal nightly player for the next RL years.

I guess if I could describe it best, I read the GDB and the website like 8 times over before making my account 2005, cause it felt like weird shit could happen and it would be dialed to 11.

Excited and motivated to see and play. I won't lie I always tried to formulate character to try and get karma so I could see the next weird class.

Now, things look like they run at about at 5 unless staff explicitly spawns in the cool stuff themselves, so I know it'll be the same story it was a couple years ago for me. GRIND GRIND GRIND GRIND, DIE STUPIDLY, GRIND GRIND GRIND politely beg for karma, GRIND, get involved in RP, die, roll again Grind for weeks, etc.


Except the reason to bring quality RP and actually try isn't there for me, because I'm not able to work towards what originally drew me to the game, the magick system and all it's trappings.  Not that I'm opposed to 'plot' and 'rp' (Though most of my experience with this, has been lackluster... no offense I just don't think I dig what most the pbase digs).

Oh well, just recently was thinking about it, logged in last night and was trying to figure out if I should store and try something new or whatever. 

When I went to see what my options and I just felt the sting of knowing that I'll never play a Nilaz or Drovian.  That staff for better or worse as completely different ideas on what's fun, interesting and entertaining than I do.  But I can't expect the game to change for lil' ole me a super infrequent player.

Just I guess voicing my dissent, no offense to the staff who implemented the changes.  I'm sure you're nice people, I just think "thematic" was a buzz word and instead of adding content, you just removed some stuff, and refeed us old stuff piece meal. 

Instead of 'reformulating', how about crack open a whole new section of the world?  That would be motivating content.  Instead for reformulating the classes, actually add something new for players to do, instead grinding out the same old skills between bad mud sex sessions.

[BadSkeelz]

Sorry your chosen OP is no longer so OP.

[Inks]

Every PC "has" to grind now

Curse you equal playing field. You can still totally play a combat mage you are just more of a glass cannon now.

[Synthesis]

Every PC "has" to grind now

Curse you equal playing field

Magick subguilds still have "mon un fuck you up" spells that can rip you a new asshole in 1v1 PvP in less than 5 days played, so I mean...I wouldn't count too much on that.

[Inks]

Was sarcasm sorry, is what I was trying to imply, edited my answer before yours showed up to clarify!

[Akaramu]

Combat mages are less of a glass cannon now, not more.

Before the change, they actually required a LOT of grinding to become halfway decent in melee combat. Now they don't.

[Inks]

Day 1 sure. I am not talking about melee combat which takes a long time to grind even on a warrior. I am talking about a combination of buffs, offensive and defensive spells as well as movement spells that make you almost impossible to deal with.

[Akaramu]

Now they can have warrior offense / defense as permanent passive buffs that are vastly superior to any defensive spell, and good luck catching them off guard. Or max ranger stealth, with ranger offense / defense. And arrows. You'll wish they'd still run out of mana after a few spells. 

[Malken]

Now they can have warrior offense / defense as permanent passive buffs that are vastly superior to any defensive spell, and good luck catching them off guard. Or max ranger stealth, with ranger offense / defense. And arrows. You'll wish they'd still run out of mana after a few spells. 

If it was as bad as some people make it sound we would be constantly hearing about it on the GDB and elsewhere, so the fact that nobody is really complaining about overly OPed mixed mundane+magicker classes makes me think that the so-called killer combos aren't that great and/or greater than your usual classes.

[Miradus]

The first 2-3 days played on a ranger or a warrior are the worst. You're at your most fragile. After that I seem to plateau at somewhere around high journeyman on my offensive combat and master at shield and parry, but I'm very, very capable PVE except for the odd critter or two. There's usually nothing you can't either beat or run away from. You're long past the days of instadeath if you're engaged.

PvP I've engaged in only sporadically. Both against mages and as a mage. Both times the mage lost. Why? Because pvp favors the prepared side, mundane or otherwise. If a mage has time to get all their spells prepped, plus their mundane stuff is ready for a fight then they're going to win. Otherwise they're going to lose.

Would I like to take my meager karma and play a FULL gick instead of a subguild? Sure.

But for a new player who never played the full ones, what we do have available is both versatile and fun. The grind is ... well ... the grind. I like it. I wouldn't have it any other way. At about 3-5 days played you're going to be completely pve capable unless you think wrestling a bahamet or hunting kryl solo is fun. Are there heights of power I've never reached somewhere beyond 15 days played? Undoubtedly, but I can have a lot of fun with a character at about 40 hours invested, which is fine with me.

[Riev]

master parry in 3days played? Teach me your ways, I usually take 5 and even then I feel like staff is going to come by and start giving me the third degree.

Still want possibility of full mages, though I've got this idea in my head that a transportation whiran and a burglar could own most of the Known world (at least in my mind-canon)

[Raptor_Dan]

If it was as bad as some people make it sound we would be constantly hearing about it on the GDB and elsewhere, so the fact that nobody is really complaining about overly OPed mixed mundane+magicker classes makes me think that the so-called killer combos aren't that great and/or greater than your usual classes.

I feel like the reason we haven't heard too much griping about IC stuff is because the people who could be those maxed out people are too busy doing awesome stuff in game right now. I mean, we've got soo much cool stuff going on, and if you're not seeing it, I'm sorry, these guys are spending their time Rp'ing with slightly magical normal people doing very Zalanthany things, as opposed to being those super maxxed OP'ed slaughterer/grinders.

My reaction to the witch subguild is, I'm seeing more well played chars survive for longer, and more conflict generated because of it. Eventually, the conflict will reach you, and I think you'll be +1 too.

[Miradus]

master parry in 3days played? Teach me your ways, I usually take 5 and even then I feel like staff is going to come by and start giving me the third degree.

Still want possibility of full mages, though I've got this idea in my head that a transportation whiran and a burglar could own most of the Known world (at least in my mind-canon)

On a warrior who starts with it? Just switch up shield and two handed regularly and you'll get there. Shield use goes up faster. When I'm a combat character I like to kill things. A lot of things. I know it's not a hack and slash game, but hack and slash can be FUN and so long as I roleplay I don't expect to hear any cheese about it. And sure enough I never have, so I guess I'm on whatever side of the line I'm supposed to be on.

As for a ranger, beats me. I've NEVER lived long enough to get parry. But a ranger at about 3-5 days played and with full ride seems to be able to handle a lot of tough stuff so long as they're mounted. If I'm on foot for any reason, stuff I can handle with ease normally will totally wreck me. But mounted I'm a war machine. No idea why that is but it seems to be something unique to rangers.

I love both rangers and warriors. Love 'em. And sometimes the tradeoff for getting a gick subguild isn't as neat as what I would have gotten instead.

I feel the same way about the non-karma subguilds. Master trader blows compared to nomad. And for sheer fun, crafting, and money making ... forester is totally awesome. A ranger/forester is STILL my favorite damn combination in the game. I just feel funny about leaving any karma on the table at chargen. Stupid, isn't it?

[Shoka Windrunner]

master parry in 3days played? Teach me your ways, I usually take 5 and even then I feel like staff is going to come by and start giving me the third degree.

Still want possibility of full mages, though I've got this idea in my head that a transportation whiran and a burglar could own most of the Known world (at least in my mind-canon)

I think there can be a lot synergy with guilds to allow people to do different things.

A Merchant/Devestation Krathi - hunt your own stuff for instance.

[Akaramu]

Now they can have warrior offense / defense as permanent passive buffs that are vastly superior to any defensive spell, and good luck catching them off guard. Or max ranger stealth, with ranger offense / defense. And arrows. You'll wish they'd still run out of mana after a few spells. 

If it was as bad as some people make it sound we would be constantly hearing about it on the GDB and elsewhere, so the fact that nobody is really complaining about overly OPed mixed mundane+magicker classes makes me think that the so-called killer combos aren't that great and/or greater than your usual classes.

No one said anything about OPed. I only disagreed with the argument that 'magickers are more of a glass cannon now'. They're totally not.

As for complaints, I hear a lot more IC complaints about magick than I did 2012 / 2013.  And that's the way it should be. I'm scared of mages again!

[lostinspace]

Except the reason to bring quality RP and actually try isn't there for me, because I'm not able to work towards what originally drew me to the game, the magick system and all it's trappings.  Not that I'm opposed to 'plot' and 'rp' (Though most of my experience with this, has been lackluster... no offense I just don't think I dig what most the pbase digs).

This very succinctly sums up my views. At this point pretty much every character I make exists because I've been skill grinding in muds for over 12 years now and it's cathartic for me. I have a very high storage rate because of this, once I run low on skills to work on I just store and make something new.

The characters I've enjoyed RP on the most maxed out quickly before I got tired of the character concept, primarily burglars and gemmed mages.

[Armaddict]

I know I don't count for much in this particular arena of discussion because I'm a magick hater, but I never had qualms with the classes themselves, or even people enjoying them more.  What I had qualms with was them being used as replacements for mundanes because the social stigma wasn't given the credit required, i.e. A templar saying they wanted to use a mage isn't weird, but a templar trying to make the mundanes protect that mage as a treasured asset was weird, or a templar using mages wasn't weird, but giving them a social status that protected them from mundanes was weird.

Because I'm not big on them and didn't play them much, this didn't affect me as much as it did other people.  I was a great deal more concerned that under the subguild system instead, they'd become even more prevalent in 'meshing' with the common people.  Last I saw, this was not the case, and I hope that trend continues.  But I don't think the removal of the full magick classes was utterly necessary for that change to come about as much as enforcement from above and the acceptance of those playing them that they -were- entering a socially stunted role.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I know I don't count for much in this particular arena of discussion because I'm a magick hater, but I never had qualms with the classes themselves, or even people enjoying them more.  What I had qualms with was them being used as replacements for mundanes because the social stigma wasn't given the credit required, i.e. A templar saying they wanted to use a mage isn't weird, but a templar trying to make the mundanes protect that mage as a treasured asset was weird, or a templar using mages wasn't weird, but giving them a social status that protected them from mundanes was weird.

Because I'm not big on them and didn't play them much, this didn't affect me as much as it did other people.  I was a great deal more concerned that under the subguild system instead, they'd become even more prevalent in 'meshing' with the common people.  Last I saw, this was not the case, and I hope that trend continues.  But I don't think the removal of the full magick classes was utterly necessary for that change to come about as much as enforcement from above and the acceptance of those playing them that they -were- entering a socially stunted role.

I always thought that it wasn't a social status above it was just, don't break the Highlords toys. 

But it always did kind of bug me that, need a burglar?  Hire a Whiran.

Need a spy?  Hire a Drovian.

Need someone removed from the face of the Known?  Hire a Krathi.


That didn't always happen.  But in a lot of ways, the mundane that the magick replaced, was less than the magicker.  Not merchants or Rangers really...but yeah.

[Armaddict]

I always thought that it wasn't a social status above it was just, don't break the Highlords toys. 

I believe this is/was accurate in theory, as it should be, but in practice it turned into something else.  They became more trusted, they became more valuable, and often, gained political clout because of what they were.  You can call that sensible, but when it puts them above the head of those who are supposed to be wary of them, it leads to the same kind of cyclical pattern as is noted in the side-tangent in the massive conflict thread; people are afraid to treat mages like mages because mages have the social weight to punish them for it.

I became firmly in this camp over the course of a few RPT's as a Tor noble, which I've alluded to several times.  The instance that Tor Scorpions are being withheld from a mission because of the mage involvement, and people say 'Doesn't matter, we only need the mages.'  The instance that there are twelve soldiers and three mages and the standing orders for an entire RPT of conflict is 'soldiers, guard the mages' and nothing else.  It led to me writing an IC book about the role of mages in the military, and how they should be separated but still put to maximum use to discourage morale drops and discontent among the common soldiers, but that didn't gain traction either.  It was all very frustrating, and threw me onto this endless soap box I can't really stop.

/derail

I'm curious, to those who feel lost with the full mages gone, what would bring you back in aside from the return of them?  Is it all because you liked getting powerful more quickly, or can it be sidestepped into a new experience that could be fostered with some changes as things are?

[Akaramu]

But it always did kind of bug me that, need a burglar?  Hire a Whiran.

Need a spy?  Hire a Drovian.

Need someone removed from the face of the Known?  Hire a Krathi.


That didn't always happen.  But in a lot of ways, the mundane that the magick replaced, was less than the magicker.  Not merchants or Rangers really...but yeah.

This was never the norm or even common. Mundane assassins got the hit jobs. Or warriors. Or rangers. Occasionally Whirans or sorcerers, but in 13 years I've never seen or heard of a Krathi being hired for a hit job. Did you ever play a full Krathi?

And did you actually play a Whiran and burgle with it? Because... without sliding down the slippery slope of discussing magick spells, this was never a thing. But yeah, I guess Drovians really were the best spies. In wish I could have played one who cast more than 5 spells in her lifetime. I still want to play one. 

[BadSkeelz]

Just play a burglar with maxed sneak/hide and pretend to be one. Then file playercomplaints on any player/characters who call you out on it because they're guild sniffing.

[Armaddict]

This was never the norm or even common.

Uhm.  Perhaps not the norm, but far from uncommon.  There is a time mismatch as well...I'm referring to a time period where I was more involved in upper-caste plots, which hasn't been recently, though I can also say that the last raider I played (which was within the past few years), no one was -sent- after me except mages, though I also had a Byn unit that was apparently starved for conflict just up and volunteer to do it for free.

Edit:  The above is relevant, but not necessarily helpful.  I would like to say that the long-standing issue with magick versus non-magick is that non-magick wants non-magick to have prevalence, where magick says they are already shorted socially, and need to be included in plots.  There's not really an easily found reconciliation point there.

[Shoka Windrunner]

But it always did kind of bug me that, need a burglar?  Hire a Whiran.

Need a spy?  Hire a Drovian.

Need someone removed from the face of the Known?  Hire a Krathi.


That didn't always happen.  But in a lot of ways, the mundane that the magick replaced, was less than the magicker.  Not merchants or Rangers really...but yeah.

This was never the norm or even common. Mundane assassins got the hit jobs. Or warriors. Or rangers. Occasionally Whirans or sorcerers, but in 13 years I've never seen or heard of a Krathi being hired for a hit job. Did you ever play a full Krathi?

And did you actually play a Whiran and burgle with it? Because... without sliding down the slippery slope of discussing magick spells, this was never a thing. But yeah, I guess Drovians really were the best spies. In wish I could have played one who cast more than 5 spells in her lifetime. I still want to play one. 

I did burgle a lot with my Whiran.  Used to rob the halfling village of food until he found out what that meat was.  That tells you when this might have been.

Recently, though no.  Though, with a Whiran?  Getting in lots of apartments wouldn't be to hard really.

Krathi - Maxxed, no.  Pretty darn close though.  Yeah.  If you got through my stuff and hit me first, I'd die.  But uhh.  If not.  Wiped.  From the Known. 

[Akaramu]

I did burgle a lot with my Whiran.  Used to rob the halfling village of food until he found out what that meat was.  That tells you when this might have been.

Were there a lot of locks to pick in that halfling village? 

That reminds me... I really wish I could have played a halfling before they went the way of the dodo. 

This was never the norm or even common.

I would like to say that the long-standing issue with magick versus non-magick is that non-magick wants non-magick to have prevalence, where magick says they are already shorted socially, and need to be included in plots.  There's not really an easily found reconciliation point there.

Good point. Maybe we really need more legitimate employment opportunities for mages so mundanes can legitimately hire non-mages for their sekret plots, without feeling they have to include the poor mages in plots because no one else will.