The Plot Satisfaction Thread

[Taven]

Awhile ago I put out a plot satisfaction survey to collect people's opinions on plots (to view the questions asked, click here). I'm still working to sift through all of the data from that thread, but I wanted to open a dialog on plots and how we—both as players and staff—can work to improve the viability of plots and the satisfaction with the plot pursing experience.

My goal of this thread is to open a genuine discussion that is not aimed at pointing fingers, but instead seeks to address the issue and find solutions. In these sorts of discussions, things can get heated, because it's a heartfelt topic for everyone. But I invite everyone to approach it with an open mind and acknowledge that all of us want to make the game better.



With that in mind, I want to show the results of some of the data, specifically looking at large world changing plots as well as small world-changing plots. Bear in mind that this is only a tiny fraction of the overall data, and any poll can be improved for quality. However, this is what will give us a starting point to go off of:


       
      (CLICK ON A GRAPH TO SEE IT LARGER)



Additionally, there were some people who took the time to give thoughtful, insightful responses anonymously at the end of the survey. I would like to share these later on, but for now I thought we would start with the hard data.


(Edited to provide link to questions and to update graph tagging.)

[Miradus]

For a game that seems to be centered around plots, y'all people sure are unhappy about plots.

[Dunetrade55]

I would think ease of actually leaving a clan would draw in more members, as well as open more slots if someone wants to get out, just a thought. I don't think it should be entirely easy, but if it isn't working out for a minion or leader then options to step aside without death/storage would be ideal... but then the question becomes, should sponsored roles, who've received skillboosts, be eligible to step out? I would think, yes, provided they don't go around advertising it. Icly, the only difference is their background is they were raised by the house/clan, or have some other trait that otherwise attaches them to the clan.

I'm personally not a fan of the concept of deserting as it stands, although I do see how it can generate plots. I don't mind losing a PC who is rightfully hunted down by their former employers for some wrong...

BUT, and this is a big but, sometimes you join a clan and find out your particular PC concept is not a good fit, maybe you'd rather graciously bow out with a whimper than go out with a loud bang (if you don't feel the icy hand of staff upon you in the process). Oftentimes finding a PC leader, particularly one who won't be personally offended, to leave to explore smaller plots, can be difficult. This isn't about me, everything I've gotten I've had coming to me. It would be nice if you could wish up to staff to leave in a legitimate manner, provided no current clan leader is investigating you for a crime, although I'm not sure of the logistics of that and the possibilities of gaming that to get out before getting your just deserts.

My personal favorite plots are the tiny plots most will never see, the heartfelt stories arising from lost loves and abandonment issues, the fears that come with it, being able to integrate that into other plots in a fashion that accomodates other stories and supplements them with more stories. I like listening to another PC tell a story about a gift, to recall, rather than, eh, it's a comb. I like to see continuation of the smaller stuff, echoes, ripples, but that requires the participation of other players, and some don't like that, which is completely within their rights.

[Taven]

My personal favorite plots are the tiny plots most will never see, the heartfelt stories arising from lost loves and abandonment issues, the fears that come with it, being able to integrate that into other plots in a fashion that accomodates other stories and supplements them with more stories. I like listening to another PC tell a story about a gift, to recall, rather than, eh, it's a comb. I like to see continuation of the smaller stuff, echoes, ripples, but that requires the participation of other players, and some don't like that, which is completely within their rights.

Yeah, the poll I did also covered small personal plots, small cross-clan relation plots, entertainment plots, and relationship plots. I didn't include any of that data in this thread, though. This thread in particular I'm starting with the plots that are more likely to change the world, be it in a large way or in a small way.

Would you find it interesting to see the data on the small personal plots, perhaps later on in a different thread?

[Dunetrade55]

My personal favorite plots are the tiny plots most will never see, the heartfelt stories arising from lost loves and abandonment issues, the fears that come with it, being able to integrate that into other plots in a fashion that accomodates other stories and supplements them with more stories. I like listening to another PC tell a story about a gift, to recall, rather than, eh, it's a comb. I like to see continuation of the smaller stuff, echoes, ripples, but that requires the participation of other players, and some don't like that, which is completely within their rights.

Yeah, the poll I did also covered small personal plots, small cross-clan relation plots, entertainment plots, and relationship plots. I didn't include any of that data in this thread, though. This thread in particular I'm starting with the plots that are more likely to change the world, be it in a large way or in a small way.

Would you find it interesting to see the data on the small personal plots, perhaps later on in a different thread?

I most definitely would.

[Taven]

I most definitely would.

I'll see if I can sift through the data and make a thread for that later on, probably after this one has thoroughly run its course.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't understand these graphs and you don't seem to have shared your conclusions anywhere.

[Miradus]

The orange seems to be the number of people who think plots suck, or the way they have been handled suck, or something about them was not happy-making. In most of the graphs it's the greater number.

I've never directly (or knowingly) been part of a "real" plot. Maybe I was Stormtrooper #37 or Red Shirt #2 but I never saw anything from beginning to end.

So I got no real input here as to what could or couldn't be improved upon.

[Refugee]

I've not felt unable to insert myself into a plot in some way.  Ever!  But I purposely play PCs that would, because I like that.

[Taven]

I don't understand these graphs and you don't seem to have shared your conclusions anywhere.

I'm leaving people to their own interpretation and just sharing the data.

The purpose of the thread is to better enable people to pursue plots or be satisfied with their ability and support to do so, by brainstorming together and discussing what works and doesn't.

Which part of the graphs is confusing for you?

[Taven]

I've not felt unable to insert myself into a plot in some way.  Ever!  But I purposely play PCs that would, because I like that.

Do you generally involve yourself with supporting the plots of others, initiating your own plots, or both?

What advice would you have for people who want to either be involved with the plots of others, or start their own? (Both in terms of getting support from staff and PCs or generally increasing their ability to participate)

[nauta]

Which part of the graphs is confusing for you?

What is "Very Interested People Who Participated"?

Why does column A on chart 2 have "Pursual Ability" whereas column A on chart 1 "General"?

What is "Pursual Ability"?

What is "Different Impacts"?

[Delirium]

I would be interested in how many of the respondents considered themselves "self starters" or if they were more of the "reactive" type. Or both. And take that into consideration along with their answers.

[Inks]

I think if you self start in the gameworld since Rath took over you can go wherever you want as long as you take the virtual world into account. I think a lot of people don't try because they have ptsd from years ago. Just try it. Trust me.

[Taven]

What is "Very Interested People Who Participated"?
Why does column A on chart 2 have "Pursual Ability" whereas column A on chart 1 "General"?
What is "Pursual Ability"?
What is "Different Impacts"?

Well, two errors on my part, then. I had assumed when polling was closed it would still let everyone see the questions. That doesn't seem to be the case. You can click here to see the questions relevant to this thread.

As you can see, there are different levels of interest. Because there was so much data, my graphs are only a small fragment of the collected data. Basically, I'm looking at people who said they were "very interested" and ALSO said they pursued plots. My current graphs don't look at people who are less interested, or who are very interested but not pursuing plots.

Secondly, the "Pursual Ability" is how satisfied a player was with their ability to pursue plots. This is the same as "General". I had meant to relabel that to make it clearer and more consistent, but I didn't get the right graph up. I'll correct my tagging, thank you for pointing that out.

Finally, as I mentioned before, I was asking about many, many different types of plots, not just the couple we're looking at in this thread. It's possible that if you are in a clan you feel like you're better able to pursue small world building plots, but perhaps feel less able to pursue relationship plots, for example. This is a question which to be better explored more fully could use it's own poll, to distinguish which plots players feel are enhanced or not by clans. But for the moment, the graph shows the basic data that was collected.

[Taven]

I think if you self start in the gameworld since Rath took over you can go wherever you want as long as you take the virtual world into account. I think a lot of people don't try because they have ptsd from years ago. Just try it. Trust me.

I think that Rath's a pretty rad staffer.

However... The numbers that you're seeing aren't from people who have given up. They are from people who are pursuing or trying to pursue plots.

Large world changing plots have 42% of respondents who are dissatisfied with PC support and 57% who are dissatisfied with staff support.

Meanwhile, small world changing has dissatisfaction ratings of 39% for PC support and 43% for staff support.

Those are some pretty big numbers for dissatisfaction. How can we improve those numbers and make them better across the board?

[nauta]

What is "Very Interested People Who Participated"?
Why does column A on chart 2 have "Pursual Ability" whereas column A on chart 1 "General"?
What is "Pursual Ability"?
What is "Different Impacts"?

Well, two errors on my part, then. I had assumed when polling was closed it would still let everyone see the questions. That doesn't seem to be the case. You can click here to see the questions relevant to this thread.

As you can see, there are different levels of interest. Because there was so much data, my graphs are only a small fragment of the collected data. Basically, I'm looking at people who said they were "very interested" and ALSO said they pursued plots. My current graphs don't look at people who are less interested, or who are very interested but not pursuing plots.

Secondly, the "Pursual Ability" is how satisfied a player was with their ability to pursue plots. This is the same as "General". I had meant to relabel that to make it clearer and more consistent, but I didn't get the right graph up. I'll correct my tagging, thank you for pointing that out.

Finally, as I mentioned before, I was asking about many, many different types of plots, not just the couple we're looking at in this thread. It's possible that if you are in a clan you feel like you're better able to pursue small world building plots, but perhaps feel less able to pursue relationship plots, for example. This is a question which to be better explored more fully could use it's own poll, to distinguish which plots players feel are enhanced or not by clans. But for the moment, the graph shows the basic data that was collected.

Ah.

And am I correct in assuming that the number of polled here is 33 (for the first two) and 19 for the clan one?

I guess it's 33 that felt they were "interested people who participate"...

[Refugee]

I've not felt unable to insert myself into a plot in some way.  Ever!  But I purposely play PCs that would, because I like that.

Do you generally involve yourself with supporting the plots of others, initiating your own plots, or both?

What advice would you have for people who want to either be involved with the plots of others, or start their own? (Both in terms of getting support from staff and PCs or generally increasing their ability to participate)

My best advice is to identify the movers and shakers in your area and become someone one of them believes they can  trust to help them out (you don't have to actually be someone they can trust, haha).  People who can be trusted are rare and you'll be involved.  Variations on that theme will usually work and it gives you something to do with your PC as a goal.

I'm honestly not too good at coming up with plot ideas on my own, anything of note anyway, but when I do have something I like to bring in as many people as I can.  But in Arm there is so much MCB that your PC will probably hold things close, so you usually have to do that to be realistic in your RP.  What I like to do is get an idea and pass it on to someone else (like someone in a sponsored role), and help them make it happen.

[Miradus]

What exactly DOES constitute a plot in Armageddon?

I conspired to steal someone's stuffed belshun fruit once. Pretty satisfied with how that turned out. 9/10 ... would pilfer belshun again.

[Dunetrade55]

As far as plots that kill my PC, I'd rather have it come down to some no-name fucker misleading then killing me as opposed to being executed by my own clan... big time RPT deaths are another beast, I've thought some of them great, and others I felt badly over... most of my deaths are due to PK, a few to wildlife, and a few to RPT I should have known better than to attend... I don't know, if I'm enjoying my plots, yet I do what's IC for my character and attend this RPT, or trust my character's boss, then get a DING... I mean, it's all well and good but then I have to start all over being basically retarded at everything because I have no cgp to boost my skills with to really just jump in the thick of things.

So, I app a new PC and feel as vulnerable as a fetus, with no power to do anything whatsoever. This can be overcome somewhat because a good line of bullshit can be sold, provided no one meta games you, which, really that's not a huge deal if they do... they might find you with some lucky dice roles and savvy coincidences occurring simultaneously if they pursue the meta game. It's just, and, ugh, it's the grind. I mean, years, of, the, grind. I don't enjoy it at all, I also don't enjoy rebuilding my base of contacts slowly over time. I enjoy that sweet spot where things come together and small things happen, inconsequential things, storytelling, barter, petty conflict, you know, before the walls come down. Each slog to that spot seems more exhausting than the last. I can understand rebuilding my base of contacts, because like it or not, that's where the real power lies, it's just, ok, I'm helpless again, can't I play someone who's not utterly dependent?

[Wystan]

I think if you self start in the gameworld since Rath took over you can go wherever you want as long as you take the virtual world into account. I think a lot of people don't try because they have ptsd from years ago. Just try it. Trust me.

[Dunetrade55]

Yes, I must agree with Inks, staff facilitates plots much more than they have before. There's even been times where I wished up to talk to a particular NPC as part of a plot and staff is like, here ya go! I love that, feeling like, if there's a sufficient need to, I can interact with the world... I have memories of a time where I'd wish up about wanting to discuss an item for sale with a shopkeeper, and no answer... but contact Vennant with a prank call (don't do this, btw), and you'll get a fat warning in your inbox pretty quickly. I do like how staff is facilitating plots, but I've never been a huge fan of the awesome mega super RPT. It makes a great story for the survivors, if they tell it in detail...

"I was there, people died, life moves on."

True, true, but keep in mind a lot of people would like to be remembered, even if just a few details.

[mel]

I suppose people could take what I say with less than a grain of salt, but I've had a mixed bag so far when playing. I've not really anything to compare this to, however, as I haven't really been playing for years like others.

On one hand, I feel staff are sometimes unresponsive, as I've both wished in certain situations and have been part of a plot where I believe a staff member had disappeared in the middle, which, honestly, is alright. Things happen, and the staff are human as well. I don't expect them to be on twenty-four seven or be immune to something coming up, especially when there's only five or so people online.

On the other hand, I've wished up for small, honestly inane things before, like when my sid-pinching character 'refused' to pay another twenty sid to retrieve their beetle due to just having handing it over. I wished up for a staff member to help with the situation (and I was actually completely expecting either no help or being told to just pay) and they animated the giant to turn back around and 'hand' the reins back to my character. This, along with a few other situations that I think might have been animated are actually what sold me on Armageddon being this strange, living and breathing world that I could interact with, and in a way, it was the smaller touches that drew me more into the experience than the grand, intricately-planned-and-animated events, so far.

[nauta]

Hi,

This is meant to be friendly.  First, I want to clarify the charts a bit, in prose, since I had to spend a little time reading the questions then the chart then the questions to make sense of it.  Second, some brief analysis.  (Also: with surveys like this there is a good chance that the only ones who respond are those who are deeply satisfied or deeply unsatisfied.  Cf. Rate My Professor.)

1. How to read the charts?  (Taven, correct me if I'm wrong.)

First, there were 33 people who were very interested in plots in the fist place who discussed large scale plots, and 44 people who were very interested in plots who discussed small scale plots.   That's a very small number to work with.

Second, the questions put to these were all about your ability to pursue a plot: in general (first column), how much PC support you perceived receiving in pursuing the plot (second column), how much staff support you perceived receiving (third column).

Ok, hopefully that clears things up.  (So it isn't an issue of PC-plots vs. Staff-plots, which is what I at first thought.)

2. Large Scale Plots

Almost nobody (1-3 people) is satisfied -- neither in their ability to pursue the plot, nor in the amount of support they perceive other PCs given them, nor in the amount of support they perceive staff given them.  That's ... just very interesting. 

Small Scale Plots

With small scale plots, well over half are satisfied or content with our ability to pursue plots and the amount of support we receive from staff and players.

I'm not terribly sure what the take away should be, or, for that matter, if there should be a take away (again, with surveys like this, it is often the extremes who respond).

[Jihelu]

Wait so are we talking about plots/why we hate them/what not in this thread?



Alrighty lets get right into the noose news


Why I don't like most plots:

I dunno.
It's either show up and hit things or political roleplay and get twinked assassin or something so those don't interest me much.

I feel like a big plot generator would be someone pursuing magic/creating certain items with magic but I've been told the latter can not happen so that leaves me with:
A: Sending logs to staff of me jerking off with an element or
B: Do nothing with magick and have to pursue mundane plots.

As I primarily like to play magickers, though that doesn't mean I play a lot ;.;, and gemmed magickers that doesn't leave me with many opportunities to actually pursue plots.

But Jihelu, you say, if you wanted to pursue plots why would you play a gemmed.

To which I say
Because I wanted to play a gemmed or something.
Idk where I was going with this but something something let magickers have more plots involving their own element and let elemental items be created through roleplay.



Edit:
I feel like I should talk about some plots I do like so I don't seem like a big butt that just hates on everything.

Even though I think it seems contradictory to what I just said I really liked doing /anything/ with the Byn. The little cliques you build, just all of it was mega fun I think.

"I think if you self start in the gameworld since Rath took over you can go wherever you want as long as you take the virtual world into account. I think a lot of people don't try because they have ptsd from years ago. Just try it. Trust me."

Well from the requests they sound pretty certain that I can't do what I wanted to try.
Less this is one of those things where it's "Don't ask just start doing it then after three years of solo rping it will happen"
Which is dumb.

[LucildaHunta]

I've struggled whether to respond to this or not, but I'll put it out there anyway.
Over the years, I've been a part of large scale plots and small scale plots and to state the obvious: plots are the lifeblood of the game. From looking at the charts, it appears people aren't happy with plots in general. This is bad, but I can't say I'm surprised either. This isn't finger pointing, it's just my perspective as someone who plays when she can.

Feedback:
It's a mixed bag, plain and simple. I get the idea of player reports and don't have a problem doing them. But sometimes the responses I get to them can range from a lengthy reply to "THANKS". Regardless of the output, I'm feeling like I'm not sure I'm on the right track, I'm not sure if my staffer would like to see me try something,I'm not sure if I'm doing something I'm not supposed to...I'm just not sure. I just feel like this form of feedback isn't working like it should and it would go a long way in helping some plots along.

Plottage
I've had characters going way back to the copper war and that's not a brag or a the way we were statement. It's just to say I've participated in a major plot line it had a beginning middle and end. Again, I'm not pointing fingers, I joined the plot knowing my character probably wouldn't survive and I was ok with that. And she didn't, I was unhappy when it happened but it was an acceptable conclusion. Sometimes now, I'm not sure where the plot line concludes, whether I should try to follow up with something or if I should just let it go.

I've also been in situations where there's been pcs, sitting in a room saying "umm...what do you want to try? Nope...tried that." If that happens, why not jump start the clan with some one off event?

Guidelines/consistency

I enjoy random events and I'm sure I've been on the receiving end of some interesting animations. Those are great, I truly love those! Sometimes I see something happen or someone says something and I think That would be a cool plot. Should I write a report? Should I send a separate mail saying Hey! Cool plot idea inside! Should I continue to rp it, try to get others involved and hope I get noticed? I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels uncertain on how to turn an idea into a plot. I'd like to do my part as far as plots and do more, but there isn't really one place to read an official way to begin a plot.

I hope this can at least jump start some discussion, even if it's to disagree or advise.

[Lizzie]

On the feedback thing, I get what you're saying, though my perception of it is a little different.

I generally avoid regular reports unless it's for a sponsored or leadership role. I do try and send an occasional "BTW here's what's been going on with my PC" from time to time.

But unless I have actual questions or concerns, or there's something going on that the staff needs clarification about, I never expect more than a "Thanks for the report" from the staff. I'm satisfied with that answer, as long as there's no questions/concerns on either side.

The only time I am -not- happy with a simple acknowledgement of my existence, is the dreaded response "Noted." I hate that. It's perception - but it just "feels" like a curt brush-off. Thankfully those are few and far between, these days. It used to be a regular thing and it really turned me off to reports even more than I was already turned off by them in the first place.

[Taven]

1. How to read the charts?  (Taven, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Large world changing plots: 33 people who were "very interested" and also pursued this type of plot.

Small world changing plots: 44 people who were very interested and who also pursued these plots.

These graphs don't count people who were very interested but did not pursue that type of plot. It also doesn't count people who were "somewhat interested" and pursued this plot type.

Second, the questions put to these were all about your ability to pursue a plot: in general (first column), how much PC support you perceived receiving in pursuing the plot (second column), how much staff support you perceived receiving (third column).

Ok, hopefully that clears things up.  (So it isn't an issue of PC-plots vs. Staff-plots, which is what I at first thought.)

It's not necessarily about how MUCH support you received, but rather your satisfaction with the support received. Quality instead of quantity.

2. Large Scale Plots

Almost nobody (1-3 people) is satisfied -- neither in their ability to pursue the plot, nor in the amount of support they perceive other PCs given them, nor in the amount of support they perceive staff given them.  That's ... just very interesting.

Something to bear in mind is that the poll only had three levels. "Very satisfied", "Content", and "Dissatisfied". People who were generally satisfied but could still see room for improvement may have picked content. If I was to re-do the poll, I would have five different levels (very satisfied, moderately satisfied, neutral, somewhat dissatisfied, very dissatisfied) as I think that would yield more accurate results.

All of that said, I think that the numbers of "very satisfied" being abysmally low in large-world changing (to the tune of about 3%) is something to take note of, discuss, and brainstorm ways to improve.

Small Scale Plots

With small scale plots, well over half are satisfied or content with our ability to pursue plots and the amount of support we receive from staff and players.

I'm not terribly sure what the take away should be, or, for that matter, if there should be a take away (again, with surveys like this, it is often the extremes who respond).

This may help you when considering what everything means, from the original thread:

Here are the definitions of what is in the survey, if you find it helpful:

Large world-changing plots: Typically something that has more ripple effects. Historically, any sort of war between cities would quality here. Things which affect multiple locals might apply here. Things which have a definitive lasting impact, that would make the history page or alter documentation.

Small world-changing plots: Admittedly, this has a wide range. Generally, this would involve something small changing a local area. Perhaps adding a new shop in an area, securing a minor treaty, or progressing to an MMH (which feels bigger, but in the scheme of things is not).

[Taven]

(stuff)

This is what I got out of your post:

1. You would like responses to PC reports from staff to say if they'd like you to try something or, on the flip side, if you're doing something you're not supposed to
2. You don't feel like you currently get a lot out of PC reports
3. You have certainty as to when current plots are finished or if you should be following up or not
4. You feel that when PCs are out of ideas for plots, they would benefit by staff making an event happen, that would then generate plots
5. You would like clarification on the best way to turn an idea into a plot

Is that correct? If so, I can respond to some of these points, I just want to make sure I'm reading you right. 

[LucildaHunta]

That's mostly right, yes.

Except #3, sometimes I'm not sure if a plot is finished.

#4 or a general nudge in the right direction.

I'd also like to add, what happens when you find yourself in a clan with no active leadership? I'm certain this is a thing that occurs for different reasons, i.e. Different playtimes, leader stopped logging on, etc.

I guess what I'm asking is what can someone like me, who has limited time to play do to help plots along or create them.

[Taven]

I guess what I'm asking is what can someone like me, who has limited time to play do to help plots along or create them.

For general plot involvement ideas and suggestions, take a look at this thread.

Some take aways from that:

• Even if you have limited playtimes, try to play at consistent times when you do play
• Finding a clan that has players who play when you do (especially if leaders play when you do)
• Making your PC interesting with their own goals as well
• Being helpful, friendly, and useful to other PCs (develop those relationships!)

1. You would like responses to PC reports from staff to say if they'd like you to try something or, on the flip side, if you're doing something you're not supposed to

What I do in my reports is I include a question section, right at the top. If you're curious about a specific thing you're trying to do or attempt, you can ask for feedback. You can ask for OOC feedback (IE how you're doing or staff advice as staff) or IC feedback (IE asking your IC superiors via report for their thoughts).

2. You don't feel like you currently get a lot out of PC reports

For this point, would you like to outline a little more as to what information you provide in reports? That may better enable me to help offer advice.

3. You're not sure if plots are finished or if you should follow up

Well, there's a few options here. Essentially, lots of plots can be taken a step further, since Armageddon is a story-based game. Even if staff didn't intend something to go a certain way, you have a lot of flexibility to take things in a new direction. I would say ask yourself: Did I accomplish my objective?

The other option is just to communicate more with staff about your confusion or questions. As long as you are fairly concise and don't ask too much, they will usually be polite about their responses.

4. You feel that when PCs are out of ideas for plots, they would benefit from staff nudging them in the right direction, or making an event happen that would then generate plots

I think this is something that a lot of people feel. The issue is that more plots can happen when reacting to something, or when following up on an idea or direction... But sometimes if nothing new is happening, it can be hard to make a change.

5. You would like clarification on the best way to turn an idea into a plot

If you want to give me a fake idea that you'd like to see become a plot (rather then something you are actually working on), I can outline how I would recommend doing it.

[Inks]

I don't think you got the point of the thread and your post is barely legible.

[Taven]

I don't think you got the point of the thread and your post is barely legible.

I think I got the point of the thread and your post is not at all helpful.

Do you care to actually contribute to the discussion at hand?

[Riev]

4. You feel that when PCs are out of ideas for plots, they would benefit from staff nudging them in the right direction, or making an event happen that would then generate plots

I think this is something that a lot of people feel. The issue is that more plots can happen when reacting to something, or when following up on an idea or direction... But sometimes if nothing new is happening, it can be hard to make a change.

To go along with this, if the players in leadership roles have a hard time coming up with ideas, staff often do come up with ideas that THEY would like to see pursued. But there is a disconnect, because when a player HAS an idea, it kind of requires that their staff agree that its a good idea, agree that it makes sense in the world, AND has time to do their side of things.

I'm not saying they are lazy, what I'm saying is that the system inherently stacks against the players. A lot of "Makes sense IC" ideas are BORING. Many "This would be super fun for all involved" make absolutely no sense for that clan, or for the game in general. Everything in the middle has been done before.

Which is why we need fire kanks.

[Taven]

To go along with this, if the players in leadership roles have a hard time coming up with ideas, staff often do come up with ideas that THEY would like to see pursued. But there is a disconnect, because when a player HAS an idea, it kind of requires that their staff agree that its a good idea, agree that it makes sense in the world, AND has time to do their side of things.

I'm not saying they are lazy, what I'm saying is that the system inherently stacks against the players.

I think you make a really good point about player-generated plots. But I would argue the steps are actually even more complex and stacked against players. Here's an example of the process:

• You propose the idea to staff
• 1 week later, staff respond to the report about the idea
• You work with other people in your clan to work on your end of things and update staff
• 1 week later, staff respond. Let's assume you're good for step #2.
• You approach other people in other clans that you need to have help make the plot happen
• 1 week later, you follow up with your contact, and they tell you they have heard nothing
• Another week later, you follow-up again. At this stage, there is no way to tell if the other player's clan staff are slow to respond or if they are merely delaying you. You also have to trust that whatever they say is actually what their NPC leaders said (not always the case)
• Assuming you make it past the huge hurtle of step #2, you can proceed to step #3. In a combat-focused plot, this can mean coordinating times. In a political plot, this can mean negotiations.
• 1 week later, confirm with staff that times are good for RPT (if combat plot). If political plot, get response back from staff about proposal, or ask if other party has heard back. If hearing back from other people, the same communication troubles ensue

This is also assuming that you're a leader in your clan. If you're an underling looking to get approval from a leader for a plot... Whew.

And this isn't all hyperbole. I've actually experienced this on multiple plots more, which caused a lot of them to stagnate and go nowhere.

Here are some possible solutions:

Make it a hard rule that reports should be answered in a week - If one staffer can't do it, another one should pick it up. If there's something wrong about a request or report (too many questions, unclear format), then communicate that to players in a polite and friendly manner. If there's a plot you know will need more intensive responses (negotiating treaties), find a way to set that up so that there will be fast responses, to avoid dragging it out.

Make an approved way to tell if PCs are lying to you about if they asked someone something (or have leader NPCs punish them if they're caught delaying) - I'm not saying that I want to work with NPCs for plots. I'm saying if a PC tells you "my NPC boss hasn't answered me yet" which is a thinly-veiled "staff haven't responded yet", you should be able to ask a vNPC if this PC even proposed the plot. Multiple PCs will lie about this, and they'll lie multiple times.

[nauta]

I like these points.  The last could be done via the CC feature on the request tool (which might still be broken).

I've sometimes thought one thing that might help is if staff posted in the 'absence' thread of a clan.  Then, at least, we could pursue non staff-driven/required plots while the staff is away.  I had an experience where our main staff in a clan just disappeared, completely, for a month without a word.  I've also had many times where a single month can rotate through three staff.

I also wonder if staff posting their (rough) play times would be good (American / European / Asian roughly).  Then you know that you are in a clan with Australian rules staff and should flee!

[nauta]

I guess what I'm asking is what can someone like me, who has limited time to play do to help plots along or create them.

For general plot involvement ideas and suggestions, take a look at this thread.

Some take aways from that:

• Even if you have limited playtimes, try to play at consistent times when you do play
• Finding a clan that has players who play when you do (especially if leaders play when you do)
• Making your PC interesting with their own goals as well
• Being helpful, friendly, and useful to other PCs (develop those relationships!)

This is the paradox of Armageddon: in order to get involved in plots you can't be an unhelpful, unfriendly jerk.  Yet in order to have conflict, you have to have unhelpful, unfriendly jerks.

[Delirium]

Solution: characters that are friendly to some, jerks to others. There is plenty of racial and societal strata to play with.

[Armaddict]

Solution: characters that are friendly to some, jerks to others. There is plenty of racial and societal strata to play with.

Also 'nice'.  Help people, do favors, but be kind of a dick when it comes to needing favors in return.

People can be helpful and friendly and still insist that nothing is free.

[Taven]

I like these points.  The last could be done via the CC feature on the request tool (which might still be broken).

I think you can CC one clan but not two?

I've sometimes thought one thing that might help is if staff posted in the 'absence' thread of a clan.  Then, at least, we could pursue non staff-driven/required plots while the staff is away.  I had an experience where our main staff in a clan just disappeared, completely, for a month without a word.  I've also had many times where a single month can rotate through three staff.

This could help, but possibly more useful is control staff side. For example, letting other staff know you'll be away and if there's any active plots you're working on. A lot of times Admins can step in for Storytellers... However, if an Admin is away a lot of times things just don't go anywhere. Maybe better communication on that would be useful.

I also wonder if staff posting their (rough) play times would be good (American / European / Asian roughly).  Then you know that you are in a clan with Australian rules staff and should flee!

I think this would only encourage people who behave twinkishly, sadly. Generally if you have a need to set up an animation they will be pretty flexible about scheduling via request tool, though. I've had a lot of good luck with staff on that.

[LucildaHunta]

Taven, that was helpful and a lot of things to think about and try.

Thank you. 

[Taven]

Taven, that was helpful and a lot of things to think about and try.

Thank you. 

You're very welcome. Let me know if you have any more questions! 

[Inks]

I apologise for my earlier post. Ironically I was posting negatively against negativity.

I would like to see another poll in a few months to compare please. I also feel like gdb polling only represents a subset of players.

Sorry about the snipe Jihelu.

[Taven]

I would like to see another poll in a few months to compare please. I also feel like gdb polling only represents a subset of players.

I'll probably do another poll in a few months, but I'll change the scope of it. The last one was too big and tried to address too many plot types. I'd also like to add more then three options for satisfaction levels, as mentioned.

While the GDB is a fairly small subset, the people who answered the last poll were around 70+. The reason the number in the graphs are smaller is because only a fraction answered "very interested" and also pursued the given plot types.

[nauta]

I would like to see another poll in a few months to compare please. I also feel like gdb polling only represents a subset of players.

I'll probably do another poll in a few months, but I'll change the scope of it. The last one was too big and tried to address too many plot types. I'd also like to add more then three options for satisfaction levels, as mentioned.

While the GDB is a fairly small subset, the people who answered the last poll were around 70+. The reason the number in the graphs are smaller is because only a fraction answered "very interested" and also pursued the given plot types.

Thanks for the hard work.  I'm still (for professional reasons) dubious about polls as stated above.

But here's a question:

Does this mean that OVER HALF (37/70) of our playerbase is not very interested in large-scale plots, and that just under half (26/70) of our playerbase is not very interested in small-scale plots?

What... are they interested in?

[Riev]

Its important to mention the lack of granularity again, as Taven already mentioned.

There was "not interested", "somewhat interested" and "VERY INTERESTED". When given extremes like that, the average populace is likely to select the less-extreme option closest to how they feel. I am not 'VERY INTERESTED' in large world plots, but I'm definitely interested in seeing them happen.

His data in this thread is only related to the "very interested" subset.

[Miradus]

This is the paradox of Armageddon: in order to get involved in plots you can't be an unhelpful, unfriendly jerk.  Yet in order to have conflict, you have to have unhelpful, unfriendly jerks.

Yes!

As an unhelpful, unfriendly jerk, can I lend some advice on this?

1. Plant seed. - Do nice stuff for people occasionally, but not overly friendly about it. "Ha, you filthy scrub. You don't look like you could greb a diamond if it were stuck up your ass. Here's a small from the best grebber around. Go get some water and a whore, you scrub." People will remember you interacting and being helpful. They'll also consider you're probably a decent player who could help them out in better ways.

2. There's a difference between being crass and being a jerk. Don't dominate the room. Give the other players opportunity to talk and roleplay out their characters and respond in short bits. Give other players equal billing in your own private drama ... don't make them stand-in extras for your own show. They've all spent time crafting their cyber-persona and giving them room to shine will make them want to play with you more, even if your character is an ass (mine often are).

3. Don't betray little. Betray big. If they tell you a small secret, don't run off to tell everyone right away. Wait until they tell you a really big secret. Because by that point they're really just feeding you a plot-hook and hoping you'll run with it.

As a fully-fledged expert in being an asshole (lots of real-life experience to draw upon), I could give out an easy 30 more tips, but 3 is enough to start with. I would consider this to be the "Indie's Guide to Being an Asshole", since if you're in a house/clan/group you're pretty much stuck with the assholes around you.

[boog]

I feel like this thread is, like the other one, pointing specifically at the shoulders of staff to wear this weird burden of stagnation. We're not omipotent as players. We don't know what staff are or aren't doing, to many degrees beyond our own play.

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

[Riev]

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

Considering the actually huge amount of work they put into the game? Some people probably would. Personally, I try to keep staff out of my gameplay as much as possible, but sometimes you just need an animation, or to talk to someone but no PCs are around.

Stagnation is going to occur, because we all only have so much creativity, before someone links TVTropes.Org to every plot idea. Everything has "been done before", and a lot of what HAS been done before, isn't allowed to be done anymore under new restrictions and guidelines.

[Reiloth]

I feel like this thread is, like the other one, pointing specifically at the shoulders of staff to wear this weird burden of stagnation. We're not omipotent as players. We don't know what staff are or aren't doing, to a degree beyond our own play.

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

It seems so, or at least the onus is a bit of a catch 22. Staff can't do anything without players, players can't do anything -meaningful- without Staff. Now, I use that word very loosely (and it's involved with this 'Plot Satisfaction' idea).

I have been perfectly satisfied playing without Staff involvement with many of my PCs. Before the request tool, we didn't even have a reasonably easy way to communicate with Staff, so you rarely did so. You knew Staff were around, they might be animating, but even if you were a leader, you mostly communicated by email and sometimes didn't even get a response, ever (!!!).

The disconnect here is...It was a little more fluid, a little more in the box (in the game), and less outside of the game, less meta. You found out if your idea was liked by the House via a Boss animation. You didn't arrange a time, you didn't report about your idea OOC/IC, you didn't go through all of those motions. You might shoot an email to your Staff saying 'Hey, Lord Soandso is going to try and enslave all the ratlons. Here's how he's going to try to do it. Does the House support him or want him to fuck off?' And your answer would come through IC means, IC channels, not an email typically or OOC communication.

I think when Staff moved away from the IC means IC Channels to the Request tool, one of the unfortunate byproducts was this emphasis on Players to pursue Staff in order to get approval for things that they do, before they try to do them. So they mention it in a report, Staff gets to comment on it, tweak it, ok changes are made, now the plot is executed in game. It creates a reliance on Staff to move things forward, whereas before it felt that things were moving forward with Staff in observance and guidance. It felt much more nuanced and just inside of the game. The request tool has changed that paradigm, to make Staff the arbiters of change.

No, I don't think it should necessarily be that way. I think that players should be empowered (or seemingly empowered) to make massive decisions that trickle down to the plebeians. But, I think with how things are working now, with 'No/Few Boss Animations', and relying on the request tool as almost half of the game for Leaders, that we are working with what we've got. In order to effect change beyond the minor, Leaders rely on Staff to support and co-author their work.

I don't know if there is an answer to this, or if there's even a question. Staff are the Leaders of the Leaders. So yes, they do not know what Staff are or are not doing (especially behind the Iron Curtain, where Staff work on projects and announce them when they are complete, not while they are in progress). Players have constantly projected what they 'think' Staff are doing or what they are working on, or more often, what they are not working on. But we should patently realize that Staff are responsible for changing the world (I mean actually effecting the changes we as Players might start). We as players cannot build rooms, we can't build NPCs. We can't create objects, and we can't create new zones. We can interact with the phenomena available to us, and we can spur that phenomena to create new phenomena, but we aren't the Gods. They are.

People look to their Leaders for guidance and to take cues on how to proceed. I think that's the basic relationship between Players and Staff. I think Staff exist to enforce the gameworld environment, make sure that documentation is upheld, rework documentation that is aged and past its prime to update to the new game environment, build NPCs/objects/rooms surrounding plot ideas, support player plots, create their own stories within the world, and remain mostly invisible (and unthanked) for the majority of it.

It isn't an easy job, but it's a necessary one, and yes, we as players require that Staff are the arbiters of change, just as Staff requires that they are the arbiters of change from players. It's a mutually agreed position.

[nauta]

I feel like this thread is, like the other one, pointing specifically at the shoulders of staff to wear this weird burden of stagnation. We're not omipotent as players. We don't know what staff are or aren't doing, to many degrees beyond our own play.

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

What if we combined the two insights.  This is something I've been thinking about for a bit, so basically: a model like MMH (Minor Merchant House) but geared towards Conflict-Oriented Groups (COGs).

Two initial points:

1. I think MMH is a brilliant thing -- it eliminates the worry of unfairness and opens up a lot of opportunities for player-generated content/structures/groups.  However, such groups are limited to the cities/civilization centers.  (NOTE: You can be an MMH and a gang in the rinth or storm!  It's perfect for this.)

In short: The MMH model works.  Let's pursue it in connection with Conflict-Oriented Groups.

2. What is a Conflict-Oriented Group?  As Taven puts it, it is a group that another clan can react to.  We already have a few out there: the Guild is a Conflict-Oriented Group vis-a-vis the AoD (although this is not so perfect); the Dust Runners -could- be a Conflict-Oriented Group too.  And in history we have others: the Red Fangs, for instance. 

The idea here is that we would have a player-created conflict-oriented group, and a structure in place for them to prosper much like there is a structure in place for MMHs.

Examples: a mul outpost group of bandits; a group of rogue magickers (maybe); a rebel group of Tulukis; an escaped mul and his rag-tag crew (ala Hawk from years ago); etc.

Conflict-Oriented Group.

So, first, here is the help file for MMH.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

So, taking that as a rough draft, here is the proposal:

Registered Conflict Maker/Rising in Prominence:

"At least 500 coin tithe + taxes and bribes, or equivalent sids tributes at the local powers that be's discretion. Shoot in a request and we can work out details for your PC."

A Hideout Holder:

1 year of history making venture work with the local powers that be
1000/2000/3000 a year being paid in bribes/tithes/rent depending on where you are.

What you would get?  A hideout that only you and your gang have access to somewhere in the desert.

Boss

2 years worth of active success with a room/base.
5000 tribute/licensing fee/bribe as a one off fee.
1000/2000/3000 a year coming out in bribes/tithes/rent - depending on where the clan is based.

What you would get?  Not sure.

Actually, the more I read the MMH doc, the more I realize we are almost there.  We just need to make room for hideouts outside the city and a structure to acquire them.

Finally, I think the AoD, if it doesn't already, should patrol like Kurac do.

[Miradus]

My biggest problem with the MMH stuff is how long it takes to crack one open.

The only people I've seen pull it off successfully (may be more that I didn't see) within my timeframe are extremely long-lived characters of over a RL year and a large team to boot.

I understand that nobody wants to allocate resources to a younger character who may not survive but those are some high bars which, thus far, have been outside my abilities.

[John]

those are some high bars which, thus far, have been outside my abilities.

Keep working at it. Long lived characters are hard to get, but definitely worthwhile (or so I've been told).

[Taven]

I feel like this thread is, like the other one, pointing specifically at the shoulders of staff to wear this weird burden of stagnation. We're not omipotent as players. We don't know what staff are or aren't doing, to many degrees beyond our own play.

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

Actually, I think there's a lot that leaders and PCs in power CAN and SHOULD be doing to keep things moving along and their minions happy. While sometimes I have had plots end because the staff support (or virtual world support, or whatever) wasn't there, at least as many if not more plots have been ended by players.

Players of leaders whose approval you need to make plots happen, and instead of looking for ways to say yes and may it work, shoot you down out of hand. Players who repeatedly claim that they have "asked the boss" about things, when they haven't done anything at all. Players who are too busy with things that don't involve plots at all, to try to pursue things. If we really want to see plots happen, then we as players have to better facilitate them.

And no, the expectation is not all on leader PCs, either. It's hard being a leader and having everyone look to you for plots all the time. Some leaders would like nothing better then to empower the plots of minions, but their underlings don't propose plots to them. If you are a minion, think about what you can do. Think about what you personally want to accomplish, what you want to accomplish for your clan, and how you want to get there. As a minion, you also have the potential to start and facilitate plots. If you want more plots, part of this is to step up to the plate and suggest some stuff yourself.

That said? If 90% of staff were sick with the flu, you could do NO small world changing and NO large world changing plots. There are limited types of plots that can succeed without staff involvement, largely small personal plots, relationship plots, and entertainment plots. Why? Because staff are needed to make the world come alive. Anything that has a significant change in the world needs staff, period.

[Taven]

I think when Staff moved away from the IC means IC Channels to the Request tool, one of the unfortunate byproducts was this emphasis on Players to pursue Staff in order to get approval for things that they do, before they try to do them. So they mention it in a report, Staff gets to comment on it, tweak it, ok changes are made, now the plot is executed in game. It creates a reliance on Staff to move things forward, whereas before it felt that things were moving forward with Staff in observance and guidance. It felt much more nuanced and just inside of the game. The request tool has changed that paradigm, to make Staff the arbiters of change.

No, I don't think it should necessarily be that way. I think that players should be empowered (or seemingly empowered) to make massive decisions that trickle down to the plebeians. But, I think with how things are working now, with 'No/Few Boss Animations', and relying on the request tool as almost half of the game for Leaders, that we are working with what we've got. In order to effect change beyond the minor, Leaders rely on Staff to support and co-author their work.

Well, I've already talked about a little bit about why the request tool can be a challenge, in part due to the delays in responses. Sometimes staff can be amazingly quick, other times I've had to wait over 30 days for something my PC needed to know before they could do anything. That's pretty disheartening.

I would say that any large-scale plot is always relying on staff to move it forwards, though. It may not have been as obvious before, but without staff there to make the world come alive, you really can't accomplish a lot of world-changing plots (if any).

That said, I do think there's something to be said about a lack of the same feel of responses with the request tool. It does not have the same feel as actually talking to and getting to know an NPC boss. It can make it harder to follow-up and ask questions. Sometimes the answers staff give are more OOC then you want them to be, and you just want a solid IC-perspective answer.

I have some solutions:

• Periodically ask staff if they are willing to do an IC animation of a boss (or in response to a larger plot goal)
• Make an effort to ask and clarify with staff when you want responses from an IC perspective, and from the staff-side, try to answer player questions this way when asked
• From a staff perspective, also don't be afraid to mention if there's OOC challenges. Is something not codedly possible? Would it take too much staff time? What are possible solutions?

Honestly, communication is really so key to everything that we do. I'm going to keep advocating for staff guidelines on how to answer reports in an approachable, friendly manner for as long as I'm playing. Tone, friendliness, and helpful demeanor is everything. Even if you're telling a player NO, if you're kind and courteous about it, it will make a HUGE difference to them.

[Taven]

2. What is a Conflict-Oriented Group?  As Taven puts it, it is a group that another clan can react to.  We already have a few out there: the Guild is a Conflict-Oriented Group vis-a-vis the AoD (although this is not so perfect); the Dust Runners -could- be a Conflict-Oriented Group too.  And in history we have others: the Red Fangs, for instance. 

The idea here is that we would have a player-created conflict-oriented group, and a structure in place for them to prosper much like there is a structure in place for MMHs.

Examples: a mul outpost group of bandits; a group of rogue magickers (maybe); a rebel group of Tulukis; an escaped mul and his rag-tag crew (ala Hawk from years ago); etc.

There's a couple challenges with Conflict Oriented Groups. Namely:

• Many players have no sense of conflict scale. They will immediately wipe you all out, then complain they are bored.
• Every major population center (Morin's does not count) is economically dependent on Allanak and therefore has limited opportunities to provide conflict against Allanak
• The bribe system does not necessarily work for COGs, especially considering that some of the hideouts would be in the wilderness.

I'm not saying we should have no COGs, just that there's a lot of challenges surrounding them.

We're starting to get more into a discussion of conflict then we are about plot satisfaction, though.

Finally, I think the AoD, if it doesn't already, should patrol like Kurac do.

They do this, when they can. Kurac just has a massive number advantage. When the AoD has limited people, they can't easily go on patrols. It just isn't safe. They do a lot of patrols inside the city, but there's not a very high chance of randomly encountering a crime that way. Even if you do, the stealth code is so massively overpowered that they won't find someone.

You could literally be dressed in a Sun Runner's bright, hot-pink cloak, wearing head-to-toe glow crystals during high sun, and as long as your hide is properly leveled, 99% of PCs would never see you.

That's probably a different thread, though.