The Plot Satisfaction Thread

[nauta]

I feel like this thread is, like the other one, pointing specifically at the shoulders of staff to wear this weird burden of stagnation. We're not omipotent as players. We don't know what staff are or aren't doing, to many degrees beyond our own play.

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

What if we combined the two insights.  This is something I've been thinking about for a bit, so basically: a model like MMH (Minor Merchant House) but geared towards Conflict-Oriented Groups (COGs).

Two initial points:

1. I think MMH is a brilliant thing -- it eliminates the worry of unfairness and opens up a lot of opportunities for player-generated content/structures/groups.  However, such groups are limited to the cities/civilization centers.  (NOTE: You can be an MMH and a gang in the rinth or storm!  It's perfect for this.)

In short: The MMH model works.  Let's pursue it in connection with Conflict-Oriented Groups.

2. What is a Conflict-Oriented Group?  As Taven puts it, it is a group that another clan can react to.  We already have a few out there: the Guild is a Conflict-Oriented Group vis-a-vis the AoD (although this is not so perfect); the Dust Runners -could- be a Conflict-Oriented Group too.  And in history we have others: the Red Fangs, for instance. 

The idea here is that we would have a player-created conflict-oriented group, and a structure in place for them to prosper much like there is a structure in place for MMHs.

Examples: a mul outpost group of bandits; a group of rogue magickers (maybe); a rebel group of Tulukis; an escaped mul and his rag-tag crew (ala Hawk from years ago); etc.

Conflict-Oriented Group.

So, first, here is the help file for MMH.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

So, taking that as a rough draft, here is the proposal:

Registered Conflict Maker/Rising in Prominence:

"At least 500 coin tithe + taxes and bribes, or equivalent sids tributes at the local powers that be's discretion. Shoot in a request and we can work out details for your PC."

A Hideout Holder:

1 year of history making venture work with the local powers that be
1000/2000/3000 a year being paid in bribes/tithes/rent depending on where you are.

What you would get?  A hideout that only you and your gang have access to somewhere in the desert.

Boss

2 years worth of active success with a room/base.
5000 tribute/licensing fee/bribe as a one off fee.
1000/2000/3000 a year coming out in bribes/tithes/rent - depending on where the clan is based.

What you would get?  Not sure.

Actually, the more I read the MMH doc, the more I realize we are almost there.  We just need to make room for hideouts outside the city and a structure to acquire them.

Finally, I think the AoD, if it doesn't already, should patrol like Kurac do.

[Miradus]

My biggest problem with the MMH stuff is how long it takes to crack one open.

The only people I've seen pull it off successfully (may be more that I didn't see) within my timeframe are extremely long-lived characters of over a RL year and a large team to boot.

I understand that nobody wants to allocate resources to a younger character who may not survive but those are some high bars which, thus far, have been outside my abilities.

[John]

those are some high bars which, thus far, have been outside my abilities.

Keep working at it. Long lived characters are hard to get, but definitely worthwhile (or so I've been told).

[Taven]

I feel like this thread is, like the other one, pointing specifically at the shoulders of staff to wear this weird burden of stagnation. We're not omipotent as players. We don't know what staff are or aren't doing, to many degrees beyond our own play.

I want to ask what we as players are doing and how we're going to fix the stagnation. If 90% of the staff were sick with the flu, what the fuck would we do for a week? Sit on our thumbs?

Actually, I think there's a lot that leaders and PCs in power CAN and SHOULD be doing to keep things moving along and their minions happy. While sometimes I have had plots end because the staff support (or virtual world support, or whatever) wasn't there, at least as many if not more plots have been ended by players.

Players of leaders whose approval you need to make plots happen, and instead of looking for ways to say yes and may it work, shoot you down out of hand. Players who repeatedly claim that they have "asked the boss" about things, when they haven't done anything at all. Players who are too busy with things that don't involve plots at all, to try to pursue things. If we really want to see plots happen, then we as players have to better facilitate them.

And no, the expectation is not all on leader PCs, either. It's hard being a leader and having everyone look to you for plots all the time. Some leaders would like nothing better then to empower the plots of minions, but their underlings don't propose plots to them. If you are a minion, think about what you can do. Think about what you personally want to accomplish, what you want to accomplish for your clan, and how you want to get there. As a minion, you also have the potential to start and facilitate plots. If you want more plots, part of this is to step up to the plate and suggest some stuff yourself.

That said? If 90% of staff were sick with the flu, you could do NO small world changing and NO large world changing plots. There are limited types of plots that can succeed without staff involvement, largely small personal plots, relationship plots, and entertainment plots. Why? Because staff are needed to make the world come alive. Anything that has a significant change in the world needs staff, period.

[Taven]

I think when Staff moved away from the IC means IC Channels to the Request tool, one of the unfortunate byproducts was this emphasis on Players to pursue Staff in order to get approval for things that they do, before they try to do them. So they mention it in a report, Staff gets to comment on it, tweak it, ok changes are made, now the plot is executed in game. It creates a reliance on Staff to move things forward, whereas before it felt that things were moving forward with Staff in observance and guidance. It felt much more nuanced and just inside of the game. The request tool has changed that paradigm, to make Staff the arbiters of change.

No, I don't think it should necessarily be that way. I think that players should be empowered (or seemingly empowered) to make massive decisions that trickle down to the plebeians. But, I think with how things are working now, with 'No/Few Boss Animations', and relying on the request tool as almost half of the game for Leaders, that we are working with what we've got. In order to effect change beyond the minor, Leaders rely on Staff to support and co-author their work.

Well, I've already talked about a little bit about why the request tool can be a challenge, in part due to the delays in responses. Sometimes staff can be amazingly quick, other times I've had to wait over 30 days for something my PC needed to know before they could do anything. That's pretty disheartening.

I would say that any large-scale plot is always relying on staff to move it forwards, though. It may not have been as obvious before, but without staff there to make the world come alive, you really can't accomplish a lot of world-changing plots (if any).

That said, I do think there's something to be said about a lack of the same feel of responses with the request tool. It does not have the same feel as actually talking to and getting to know an NPC boss. It can make it harder to follow-up and ask questions. Sometimes the answers staff give are more OOC then you want them to be, and you just want a solid IC-perspective answer.

I have some solutions:

• Periodically ask staff if they are willing to do an IC animation of a boss (or in response to a larger plot goal)
• Make an effort to ask and clarify with staff when you want responses from an IC perspective, and from the staff-side, try to answer player questions this way when asked
• From a staff perspective, also don't be afraid to mention if there's OOC challenges. Is something not codedly possible? Would it take too much staff time? What are possible solutions?

Honestly, communication is really so key to everything that we do. I'm going to keep advocating for staff guidelines on how to answer reports in an approachable, friendly manner for as long as I'm playing. Tone, friendliness, and helpful demeanor is everything. Even if you're telling a player NO, if you're kind and courteous about it, it will make a HUGE difference to them.

[Taven]

2. What is a Conflict-Oriented Group?  As Taven puts it, it is a group that another clan can react to.  We already have a few out there: the Guild is a Conflict-Oriented Group vis-a-vis the AoD (although this is not so perfect); the Dust Runners -could- be a Conflict-Oriented Group too.  And in history we have others: the Red Fangs, for instance. 

The idea here is that we would have a player-created conflict-oriented group, and a structure in place for them to prosper much like there is a structure in place for MMHs.

Examples: a mul outpost group of bandits; a group of rogue magickers (maybe); a rebel group of Tulukis; an escaped mul and his rag-tag crew (ala Hawk from years ago); etc.

There's a couple challenges with Conflict Oriented Groups. Namely:

• Many players have no sense of conflict scale. They will immediately wipe you all out, then complain they are bored.
• Every major population center (Morin's does not count) is economically dependent on Allanak and therefore has limited opportunities to provide conflict against Allanak
• The bribe system does not necessarily work for COGs, especially considering that some of the hideouts would be in the wilderness.

I'm not saying we should have no COGs, just that there's a lot of challenges surrounding them.

We're starting to get more into a discussion of conflict then we are about plot satisfaction, though.

Finally, I think the AoD, if it doesn't already, should patrol like Kurac do.

They do this, when they can. Kurac just has a massive number advantage. When the AoD has limited people, they can't easily go on patrols. It just isn't safe. They do a lot of patrols inside the city, but there's not a very high chance of randomly encountering a crime that way. Even if you do, the stealth code is so massively overpowered that they won't find someone.

You could literally be dressed in a Sun Runner's bright, hot-pink cloak, wearing head-to-toe glow crystals during high sun, and as long as your hide is properly leveled, 99% of PCs would never see you.

That's probably a different thread, though.