regarding 'a random thought' in ATS

[Akaramu]

Absolutely -- New helpfiles would be wonderful, and having a sort of 'What you know about Psionics: Commoner Edition' would be a helpful guide post as well. It's as simple as the story nauta mentioned -- New players don't know it's possible to have thoughts forced on you, or what that is. So something to OOCly approach the subject, so the player is informed, even if the PC isn't, would be cool.

+1

[Lizzie]

Ath, as long as it is "permissible" for the receiver to actively deny the thought, that's fine. Like:

>[forcethink]You think you are falling in love with Amos.

>[methink] Wait, what? The guy I just put a bounty out on because I hate him? What a profoundly ridiculous thought.
>[methink] Here's another profoundly ridiculous thought. I am from another galaxy, and the black moon is made out of moldy cheese.

and it thoughts like that - that are *totally contrary* to what's actually going on with my character, continue in a profoundly ridiculous way, it would be a logical final step to conclude that a mindbender must be fucking with my character's head.

Compare with something more believable to my character:

>[forcethink] You think you might be doubting your decision to put a bounty out on Amos.
followed an hour later by:
>[forcethink] You are really starting to doubt your decision about Amos' bounty.
followed the next day by:
>[forcethink] Amos really isn't all that bad, it's just a misunderstanding.
followed a couple of hours later by:
>[forcethink] Amos is actually kind of cute, isn't he.

and so on - gradually, until the mindbender no longer has to [forcethink] anything, because my character is fully convinced that she's in love with Amos.

[Reiloth]

The way I see it, you are not your thoughts. And thoughts can conflict with your 'higher brain' sort of functions, but still be your own contrarianism or annoying devil's advocate. So in my personal experience, when a thought comes from left field and i'm like...But wait, maybe that is right. No, no...I still hate Amos.

Just because you have a thought or a feeling doesn't mean you act on it, unless you choose to. Maybe I am falling in love with Amos...No, no that's silly. But maybe he is kind of cute? Hrmmm.

[Hauwke]

I for one would love a psi to brainfuck my characters at times. Would liven up RP and give a new direction to things for example.

Forcedthinks culminating in this: You love so and so after some time

I now have the avenue to pursue this person if it makes sense. There are a few folks I would never go for and thats ok because its still my mind trying to convince me of this thing.

[Delirium]

Just because I have thoughts about hoisting the black flag and slitting throats doesn't mean I'll follow through with it.

But everyone's had Those Thoughts.

[Lizzie]

The way I see it, you are not your thoughts. And thoughts can conflict with your 'higher brain' sort of functions, but still be your own contrarianism or annoying devil's advocate. So in my personal experience, when a thought comes from left field and i'm like...But wait, maybe that is right. No, no...I still hate Amos.

Just because you have a thought or a feeling doesn't mean you act on it, unless you choose to. Maybe I am falling in love with Amos...No, no that's silly. But maybe he is kind of cute? Hrmmm.

What I included in my post (and I corrected the spelling - word is if, not it):

and if thoughts like that - that are *totally contrary* to what's actually going on with my character, continue in a profoundly ridiculous way, it would be a logical final step to conclude that a mindbender must be fucking with my character's head.

So yes - I'm agreeing with you (and everyone else here) - a thought here and there that makes no sense - is fine, it's great to RP with it, run with it, grok it utterly.

But when someone is *continually* putting ridiculously contrary thoughts into your head, then it's time to acknowledge the fact of Zalanthas that mindbenders DO exist, their existence is not a secret (though what they can do is), and apparently, whatever is going on in your head MIGHT VERY POSSIBLY be the result of a mindbender.

I say this because in real life, there is no mindbender to turn to, and therefore, the only conclusion is "my mind is not healthy" (whether you're going insane, you're taking mind-altering drugs, someone is poisoning you, you read too much fake news on the internet). In Zalanthas, mindbenders DO exist, and without knowing ANYTHING about mindbenders other than the nomenclature, it stands to reason that they ARE absolutely positively one possible cause for "thoughts that don't make sense for me to think but keep being thought, regardless." The character's mind, quite literally, is being bent. By a mindbender, which is an entity in Zalanthas that is known to exist. What do they do? They bend minds. What is happening to me, the character? Well I could just be going crazy. But it could also be a mindbender. How do I know this? Because I know mindbenders exist, and are therefore on possible explanation.

[Armaddict]

Yeeeaaaah, I think the only reason there continues to be any appearance of contrariness is because it keeps on falling back towards a presentation of absolutism as far as there being no risk for discovery.

I'm sorry.  But they can be discovered.  It just shouldn't be done through immediate and jarring leaps of knee-jerk reactions.  That's been reiterated many times throughout the thread, but keeps falling back into 'I dunnooooo...' or 'Any time you think it could be a psionicist, you're automatically doing something wrong.'

The forcethink seems to be the major topic of debate, but I'm speaking all around.  Consistent manipulations of the way that are felt are the same as being persistently shadowed by someone who's good, but is still human (and therefore imperfect), as a glimpse in the corner of your vision.  When you look, it's not there.  At first you dismiss it.  Then you think you might be going crazy.  Then you're sure of it (or actually crazy, but that's other people's roleplay, not yours, when you bring it up, as you more than likely will at this stage).  Insisting that everyone stop at the 'I must be crazy' stage is stepping pretty far out of the boundary to, once again, create a grey area that isn't there.  My insistence is that your successes are not glimpses at the corner of my eye.  They aren't even noticed, they are completely internalized.  But exposure to failures gives that glimpse that gives a moment of opportunity for the external stimuli to perceived as external rather than internal, and if you choose to ignore it (as you probably should, for the first couple), that's great.

But not everyone will.  Ever.  Not in real scenarios, not in fake scenarios, not ever.  There is no such thing as completely uniform behavior to any given stimuli that is real, which is why I say that if you want there to be no perceived stimuli, then the game code needs to remove the idea that there is a stimuli, i.e. remove failure messages altogether.  But I think that, all around, is counter-intuitive to the basis of the MUD.

Edited to add:  I should say I'm not accusing anyone of actually saying it's an absolute, but the appearance of posts goes that way even when speaking of general rules without specific cases of exceptions; much like documentation, the lack of acknowledgement that it's not always true makes it something that can be taken as 'it -must- be done this way.'

[Jingo]

Ath, as long as it is "permissible" for the receiver to actively deny the thought, that's fine. Like:

>[forcethink]You think you are falling in love with Amos.

>[methink] Wait, what? The guy I just put a bounty out on because I hate him? What a profoundly ridiculous thought.
>[methink] Here's another profoundly ridiculous thought. I am from another galaxy, and the black moon is made out of moldy cheese.

I'd be fine with this.

[Jingo]

Yeeeaaaah, I think the only reason there continues to be any appearance of contrariness is because it keeps on falling back towards a presentation of absolutism as far as there being no risk for discovery.

I'm sorry.  But they can be discovered.  It just shouldn't be done through immediate and jarring leaps of knee-jerk reactions.  That's been reiterated many times throughout the thread, but keeps falling back into 'I dunnooooo...' or 'Any time you think it could be a psionicist, you're automatically doing something wrong.'

The forcethink seems to be the major topic of debate, but I'm speaking all around.  Consistent manipulations of the way that are felt are the same as being persistently shadowed by someone who's good, but is still human (and therefore imperfect), as a glimpse in the corner of your vision.  When you look, it's not there.  At first you dismiss it.  Then you think you might be going crazy.  Then you're sure of it (or actually crazy, but that's other people's roleplay, not yours, when you bring it up, as you more than likely will at this stage).  Insisting that everyone stop at the 'I must be crazy' stage is stepping pretty far out of the boundary to, once again, create a grey area that isn't there.  My insistence is that your successes are not glimpses at the corner of my eye.  They aren't even noticed, they are completely internalized.  But exposure to failures gives that glimpse that gives a moment of opportunity for the external stimuli to perceived as external rather than internal, and if you choose to ignore it (as you probably should, for the first couple), that's great.

But not everyone will.  Ever.  Not in real scenarios, not in fake scenarios, not ever.  There is no such thing as completely uniform behavior to any given stimuli that is real, which is why I say that if you want there to be no perceived stimuli, then the game code needs to remove the idea that there is a stimuli, i.e. remove failure messages altogether.  But I think that, all around, is counter-intuitive to the basis of the MUD.

Edited to add:  I should say I'm not accusing anyone of actually saying it's an absolute, but the appearance of posts goes that way even when speaking of general rules without specific cases of exceptions; much like documentation, the lack of acknowledgement that it's not always true makes it something that can be taken as 'it -must- be done this way.'

Theoretically a mindworm should be able to convince you that it was just a meaningless trick of your mind.

Forcethink: "Bah. That was probably nothing."

The reason I didn't do this was because I was worried about confirming someone's ooc suspicions about the incident.

[Armaddict]

I don't think I've ever received that devoted of attention.  Either that or the psionicist failing gets bug-eyes at realizing they just failed and immediately panic and retreat (I did that once with my psionicist).  I think once you hit that level, the average player should realize that they're going to be truly interacted with and see where this story takes them.  Here's to hoping some mindbenders do it for your benefit from time to time. 

However, my memory has been tickled.  During the Copper War, there was a large gathering of conscripts, soldiers, commoners, and nobles that were all gathered and given a huge diatribe about how the north employed the mind tricks as mindbenders, and to be on the look out for this, this, and this.

This grants precedence to the idea that while many commoners won't know, there will be some that will.  There will be urban legends about it, the same as sorcery.  They are in reality not a boogieman, but a real, acknowledged enemy of the state and all its commoners.  And there is a general idea of what it means to be 'bended'.

That negates none of the conversation that has been had, aside from the creation of the idea that they are invisible threats that are rarely acknowledged to exist.  It changes none of the etiquette/code acknowledgement that I said before.

[Jingo]

Yo Ath. I sent an e-mail with some observations about the Psionicist class.

Take a look.

[Riev]

However, my memory has been tickled.  During the Copper War, there was a large gathering of conscripts, soldiers, commoners, and nobles that were all gathered and given a huge diatribe about how the north employed the mind tricks as mindbenders, and to be on the look out for this, this, and this.

In my day-to-day, I assume "being bended" and being on the look out for "Northie bender traps" is just that kind of thing parents tell their kids to make them behave. Sort of like the boogeyman, only it turns out he DOES exist. So it goes through a few layers, starting with:

"They don't REALLY exist, its just an excuse"
to
"Okay, so maybe something LIKE it exists, but no way would they give a shit about me"
to
"They definitely seem to exist, and I think I know someone that its happening to but if I say anything they'll think I'm one"
etc etc etc

[manipura]

c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.

I was always under the impression that they were rather uncommon.  I think one of the FAQs has a list of guilds from most common to least common, and psionicists are at the bottom.

Am I missing something...?  Where is it suggested that mindworms are common?

[Armaddict]

I also would never have the idea that they were common, and I think the helpfile suggesting so is a misread.

I do think that they are only as 'unknown' as mages were in the north.  People know they exist, but it's suppressed.  There has never in my recollection prior to this post been posited with any certainty that they should be considered something boogie-mannish in any way other than that they're frightening to people.  This part about people not even believing they exist is pretty new, and I'm not sure where that sprouted from, but the more I read that idea the more foreign it is in nature.

I can get behind a lot of pro-psionicist things in this thread, but that's a part that seems pretty out of whack with how things have been treated in the game for a long time.  We've been having discussions on how people should be meeting in person because of the insecurity of the Way, even.

[manipura]

There has never in my recollection prior to this post been posited with any certainty that they should be considered something boogie-mannish in any way other than that they're frightening to people.  This part about people not even believing they exist is pretty new, and I'm not sure where that sprouted from, but the more I read that idea the more foreign it is in nature.

I'm not going to go back through a handful of pages to check how this idea was worded...but could it have been meant more like "I can't wrap my head around how it could be possible, and I've never known anyone who felt anything weird in their heads and I haven't felt anything too weird either, and I haven't ever seen anyone who -looks- strange...so maybe probably they aren't even real things and it's all just a scary story"?

[nauta]

c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.

I was always under the impression that they were rather uncommon.  I think one of the FAQs has a list of guilds from most common to least common, and psionicists are at the bottom.

Am I missing something...?  Where is it suggested that mindworms are common?

Yeah, sorry -- what Armaddict said.  I meant it in the sense that it suggests that we'd have a general knowledge of their existence pace some of the suggestions above that they are akin to bogeymen.  Here's the relevant bit:

   Psionicists have come to be known as mindbenders, and masters of the
Way. They deal with manipulation of the Way, bending it to serve their
plots and designs. Because of their ability to deal directly with people's
minds, true psionicists are killed on sight (though of course none would
be so foolish as to announce their presence openly, just as a defiler
would not) in just about every civilized region of Zalanthas, due to
their highly dangerous potential.

[Lizzie]

c) HELP PSIONICIST suggests that mind worms are fairly common.

I was always under the impression that they were rather uncommon.  I think one of the FAQs has a list of guilds from most common to least common, and psionicists are at the bottom.

Am I missing something...?  Where is it suggested that mindworms are common?

It's the least common among the list of playable guilds. It's a pretty literal statement. I mean - "waiter/waitress/housekeeping/janitor" is not a coded available guild, and so in regards to the criteria "list of guilds" they are unplayable. And yet - in regards to the overall theme of the game, they're probably more common than anything else.

In regards to the list of guilds, mindbenders are the rarest. But in regards to the different types of people dwelling on the planet Zalanthas - they might not be all that rare.

[Bahliker]

Ath, as long as it is "permissible" for the receiver to actively deny the thought, that's fine. Like:

>[forcethink]You think you are falling in love with Amos.

>[methink] Wait, what? The guy I just put a bounty out on because I hate him? What a profoundly ridiculous thought.
>[methink] Here's another profoundly ridiculous thought. I am from another galaxy, and the black moon is made out of moldy cheese.

and it thoughts like that - that are *totally contrary* to what's actually going on with my character, continue in a profoundly ridiculous way, it would be a logical final step to conclude that a mindbender must be fucking with my character's head.

Compare with something more believable to my character:

>[forcethink] You think you might be doubting your decision to put a bounty out on Amos.
followed an hour later by:
>[forcethink] You are really starting to doubt your decision about Amos' bounty.
followed the next day by:
>[forcethink] Amos really isn't all that bad, it's just a misunderstanding.
followed a couple of hours later by:
>[forcethink] Amos is actually kind of cute, isn't he.

and so on - gradually, until the mindbender no longer has to [forcethink] anything, because my character is fully convinced that she's in love with Amos.

I agree with this for the most part, in that the player is still the de facto controller of their own character, and in that even if he or she accepts that their character -has been successfully mindbent- they retain most of the control and right to interpret the changes (esp considering the mechanical limitations of that ability and the possibility that the thoughts make no narrative sense). But in your example I have to ask, who in the world has the power to -make- your character fall in love with Amos against her will, if not a psionicist making her think things she wouldn't otherwise think? Let's assume the ability to make you think things is a step shy of physically making you lean over and start  making out with amos right away. I don't believe there's a coded way for a psionicist to step in and rewrite your background and personality profile for you, so what other way is there to control your pc and make her get down with Amos but manipulating her thoughts one think command at a time? Actually let me rephrase, because I'm not asking that question, I know that answer and it's not what I'm getting it. Here it is: why is that not the way to make her fall in love with amos and why do you get to decide how many psionic commands it takes?

Again this comes down to what we think the commands "think" and "feel" represent. According to the help files, think sounds to me like nothing but surface and feel is a lot deeper. If you get a "you feel in love with amos" does that change things for you? Or, switching to another approach, what if "You see the tall, muscular man in a sudden new light. He's handsome and charming and you can't get enough of that smile. It's true love." appears on your screen.

I believe this is why it's an 8 karma role, and should honestly be by special request even for 8ks. They control other characters period fullstop. Unless they're telling you to pick up the hot coal that isn't in the room, you kind of have to play along or you're not playing at all.

[TheWanderer]

[Armaddict]

I'm not going to go back through a handful of pages to check how this idea was worded...but could it have been meant more like "I can't wrap my head around how it could be possible, and I've never known anyone who felt anything weird in their heads and I haven't felt anything too weird either, and I haven't ever seen anyone who -looks- strange...so maybe probably they aren't even real things and it's all just a scary story"?

Yup, I went back and reread and some were very benignly worded so as to allow room for what I've been talking about, which is acknowledgement that they exist.  Essentially their stance is just 'I have lots of reasons to doubt that a single occurrence is a mindbender', which I'm on board with.

There were only a couple that took on a more assertive tone of 'They shouldn't even be regarded as real', and I managed to lump them together due to repetition and intermingling.

Unless they're telling you to pick up the hot coal that isn't in the room, you kind of have to play along or you're not playing at all.

While I for the most part agree, the statement that they're no longer trying to roleplay is an extreme and seems more like an attempt at bashing them into behaving a certain way, but as long as we're creating theoreticals to argue about which is more viable than the other, then really it's pretty hard to come down on someone for having a different theoretical approach.  For all we know, it could indeed have been played wrong for the opposite reasonall this time, because every drunkass having weird thoughts should have been blaming a bender, or every human cheating on a monogamous relationship should be blaming the actions on the Way.

This is why I say we stick to letting the code tell us whether we know things or not.  It's quick, simple, and not really a point that can be argued against unless it's a call to change the code itself.  That's pretty much how I intend to <continue to> do it, albeit with a little more care to try and give some information to help their manipulations along.

[Bahliker]

Yeah, it's hard to come down on someone because it's all theoretical approaches. The whole thing is an imaginary abstract of an imaginary abstract. Once you compare how people use think and feel vs how they are described, then how the various powers interact with those commands and the interface in general... It's the greyest area of the whole game. Nobody is wrong in this thread. Even if hard lines are drawn by the staff, it's going to be fuzzy.

I do think if you try to say "my character wouldn't do that" to a benders manipulation, you're not role playing. It's like saying your character wouldn't get his butt kicked.
"But my character wouldn't in a million years think that for real!"
"Guess what, it does now."

But even if that's the hard line layed out for us, there needs to be an understanding of limitations and setting-specific mechanics. Does it wear off over time? Is there a recovery breakthrough possible, like repressed memories? Could the changes be obvious to an outsider (like glassy-eyed parroting of the planted ideas when they're questioned), can a logical paradox break the hold and reveal the worst of it? Mind control is such a cool concept in fiction. But it always seems to behave differently and there's usually rules well established.

[a french mans shirt]

Having your character forced to think that they are in love with Amos now, or want to kill him, because a mindbender made them believe that, is a beautiful idea that doesn't currently have a real route to reality because we don't want to force anyone's character to think anything with that strength. If we had flags we could toggle on and off for things like this I would like that.

>forcethink on

You are now allowing the roleplayed consequences of forced thinks.

>forcethink off

You are no longer allowing roleplayed consequences from forced thinks.

I would kill for this idea because I've had seven or eight occurrences of mindbenders messing with me and none of them have been anything but practice sessions to git gud.

Imagine if you worked hard for the last few months and graduated the Atrium, became an aide, survived your noble's constrained death, began to work for his killer to survive, proven your loyalty, became an Advisor...

and typed >forcethink on.

Beautiful!

[Reiloth]

 

Might as well have "magick on/off" and "harshness on/off".

[Armaddict]

Might as well have "magick on/off"

They took out nilazis.  Therefore...we are all nilazis now.

Muhahahaha!

(I'd totally be a magick off kind of guy.)

[Feco]

Might as well have "magick on/off" and "harshness on/off".