Psionics: Ideas and discussion on etiquette

[Is Friday]

Yes, part of this problem too is the 'must win, must kill competition, must destroy all who oppose me' sort of attitude. It's boring.

QFT.

[Armaddict]

...that's not exactly what I was inferring, because to me that always sounds so egocentric, i.e. 'My plots are really important and you should leave them alone', thus essentially saying anyone else's interests contrasting yours are less important and should be dropped to avoid the conflict that ensues.

I was more pointing to the natural state of plotting, which is that there is inevitably an opposition to it, or else it wouldn't be a plot.  When it's players involved in player plots, everyone gets up in a dither over it because people have to actively work against each other.  The whole 'You're playing to win' argument never ceases to make me squint and wonder why a character wouldn't act in their own best interests, and why that doesn't promote progression of stories (just not necessarily yours).  It's like saying Game of Thrones is horribly written fiction because people's plots keep being ended by other players.

(Apologies if the above is out of context:  I always argue about it because I usually read it as 'Players shouldn't ever kill each other'.  If it's solely directed at frivolous wanton murder out of love of combat, then I can agree much more readily.)

Anyway.  The point was...the biggest incentive to twink out is when mechanics of the game stand directly in the path of reasonable character-story progression, and if we want more player interaction in player plots while having less divided interests (i.e. clans), then an almost infallible 'best way' to communicate is not really that helpful to anyone.  So I'd love for the Way to be one of the tweaks, even if it was gently tweaked, to see if it promotes more of an ability for more players to be exposed to even the existence of ongoing plots; one of the common things I hear is 'there's nothing to do' or 'I can't get involved', and so exposure to the personal plots that I know are rampant in the game, but well concealed, would be a good way to start shifting it the other way.

[The Warshaper]

Subguild! Subguild! Subguild!  

Another idea I've had was somehow recognizing who has contacted you before sending you any ways. Preventing this 'sniffing' I've read about. Or atleast giving you some warning ahead of time.

[KankWhisperer]

plenty of games had decent playerbases and did not have widely accessible telekinetic powers that enabled all forms of communication with 99.9% secrecy.

one of them at one point had comparable numbers to armageddon.

they stopped being a thing only because the staff team left (after a big corruption/cheating thing).

so, take from that what you will.

Like which games?  How big was the world?  Was there channels? Was there any other kind of OOC conveniences to make up for it?

I feel the major hold up/hang up is that -- Everyone has Psionics, and almost no one can read or write.

So -- In another crazy universe where 80% of Zalanthans could read and write (or 50% or whatever), and they could use a messenger service to get messages around, the Way would be less required. The development of the Way (at least according to Dark Sun) was to give humans an advantage in an otherwise desolate world surrounded by super-buff mutant races. In ArmageddonMUD, it's obviously for the OOC convenience of seeing who's online and keeping in touch with people without needing to meet with them.

I don't think the Way should go away, I lean towards Armaddict's understanding. Alterations to make the Way less 100% reliable, increasing the difficulty of using it in certain situations or weather conditions, increasing the difficulty for a full message to be received over long distances, give a chance to randomly way your message to another PC who is online, make Psions more of a threat and a presence in the world. I think there's plenty that -could- be done. But that doesn't mean it needs to be done.

I think the example given earlier of a Templar telling a minion to Way instead of Whisper is poor meta play. We should be delighted to have our secret plots possibly overheard and foiled. We should whisper, instead of Way, and keep assuming that a cabal of Psions are listening to your every thought and Way. The more we isolate plotting / counter-plotting, the more boring the game is on the surface. The more boring it is on the surface, the less people want to play or even care about your plots.

Get plotting out in the open -- Meet in Booths, whisper, talk, say things out loud. Don't try to keep a perfectly secret plot, I think that's something we can effect as Players rather than needing to look so closely at the Way.

I think purposefully using a less secure form of communication, for meta purposes (making everything more interesting for other people), is really no better than using it because you meta want to "win". Valid reasons could be you don't trust the way and benders, you feel you can better convince people with your charisma in person, you hate people in your head,  you are a fucking incompetent and or ignorant, and so on. So that's why I would rather it be a coded drawback instead of expecting everyone to play to lose for meta reasons.

[path]

The issue is that no matter what skills of observation you have, you'll never know if they have been communicating via the way. This leads to all sorts of bizarre situations such as being able to plot someone's death right in front of them. Or with 50% of the communication in a social setting being secret way-traffic.

I don't have an issue with this. If you and ...Kankwhisperer are sitting with me, plotting my death over the Way while we three are straight chilling, I think that's fine. It's part of the setting. Actually, I think that makes for a crazy rad scene! I was cleaning up a similar scene today where psionics played in pitch perfectly. As far as the theoretical and sometimes higher 50% of communication being done over the Way, I'm actually fine with that too. I think it's a really cool feature of the game world.

As an aside, I do also use whisper and I'd be happy to see a gradation of psionic subs, though I'd be sorry if we lost our psionic main guild. I'm not super psyched about intercept. Can you show me how you think a cool scene would play out with that?

Is it possible the real issue is you feel you've been party to what you'd deem unfair use of the Way -or- you're feeling left out of plots you'd like to have revealed?

[BadSkeelz]

Authentic Way-only same-table Zalanthan conversation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tl1qBLzApQ

This is how silly you look.

[Jingo]

The issue is that no matter what skills of observation you have, you'll never know if they have been communicating via the way. This leads to all sorts of bizarre situations such as being able to plot someone's death right in front of them. Or with 50% of the communication in a social setting being secret way-traffic.

I don't have an issue with this. If you and ...Kankwhisperer are sitting with me, plotting my death over the Way while we three are straight chilling, I think that's fine. It's part of the setting. Actually, I think that makes for a crazy rad scene! I was cleaning up a similar scene today where psionics played in pitch perfectly. As far as the theoretical and sometimes higher 50% of communication being done over the Way, I'm actually fine with that too. I think it's a really cool feature of the game world.

As an aside, I do also use whisper and I'd be happy to see a gradation of psionic subs, though I'd be sorry if we lost our psionic main guild. I'm not super psyched about intercept. Can you show me how you think a cool scene would play out with that?

Is it possible the real issue is you feel you've been party to what you'd deem unfair use of the Way -or- you're feeling left out of plots you'd like to have revealed?

It's a broken mechanic that leads to suspect/boring roleplay. That's why I don't like it.

I think the real question is why do you feel the way shouldn't have risk? Armageddon is in part a competitive game, why should there be only one correct option from an entire toolbox? And secondly why should I play a character that ever uses whisper (a way to communicate with risk) in that game? Why should I attempt to spy on anyone (an activity that has risk), knowing that I won't succeed if they use this mechanic?

[Dakota]

i dont think basic psionics among mundanes are an issue at all...

[path]

The issue is that no matter what skills of observation you have, you'll never know if they have been communicating via the way. This leads to all sorts of bizarre situations such as being able to plot someone's death right in front of them. Or with 50% of the communication in a social setting being secret way-traffic.

I don't have an issue with this. If you and ...Kankwhisperer are sitting with me, plotting my death over the Way while we three are straight chilling, I think that's fine. It's part of the setting. Actually, I think that makes for a crazy rad scene! I was cleaning up a similar scene today where psionics played in pitch perfectly. As far as the theoretical and sometimes higher 50% of communication being done over the Way, I'm actually fine with that too. I think it's a really cool feature of the game world.

As an aside, I do also use whisper and I'd be happy to see a gradation of psionic subs, though I'd be sorry if we lost our psionic main guild. I'm not super psyched about intercept. Can you show me how you think a cool scene would play out with that?

Is it possible the real issue is you feel you've been party to what you'd deem unfair use of the Way -or- you're feeling left out of plots you'd like to have revealed?

It's a broken mechanic that leads to suspect/boring roleplay. That's why I don't like it.

I think the real question is why do you feel the way shouldn't have risk? Armageddon is in part a competitive game, why should there be only one correct option from an entire toolbox? And secondly why should I play a character that ever uses whisper (a way to communicate with risk) in that game? Why should I attempt to spy on anyone (an activity that has risk), knowing that I won't succeed if they use this mechanic?

I do think it has risk. I think the low amount of risk is has is cool. Having my Ways go everywhere sounds like chaos. I've been Way'd junk people should probably have asked consent for.  A lot of the time it's used for boring purposes but that's really good too, because Arm is such a time suck and I need to be able to conduct several conversations simultaneously to keep things moving.

It's a competitive and cooperative game, yes. You should use whisper when you feel it would be appropriate for your character to do so, without the meta standpoint, but via roleplay. I'm not sorry for you that the Templar yelled at your character. He's playing his own persona who has his own ideas about how business should be conducted and he was giving you insight into them. In my experience these things change depending on who I'm playing with and how the Known is at the time, and Jingo - that's so cool too! I love it that the world has times of higher paranoia about mindbenders and times when it's more worried about flesh and blood spies.

Spying on people using the method you mentioned, shadowing them, can yield lots of information and maybe not the information you need. It's not the only way to spy, though. You can seduce their lover, you can befriend them. You can send someone else to befriend them. You can pay off someone in their employ. You can pay someone more important to speak with them sternly.

Jingo, THESE methods have risk and lead to fantastically interesting plotlines. You're so smart. I don't believe you actually need to hear what someone's Waying to know when you're in danger. I think you can pick up on their tells from their phrasing. If you can't, then to return to your earlier plot of someone dying. Well, you die! By PK! Which is the best way to die.

[evilcabbage]

sometimes it literally is a blanket

Welcome to Armageddon!

and not a phrasing thing. people will intentionally phrase things to make sure you are not going to die, in such a way that no hint is given, with no hemotes whatsoever in relation to it.

they intentionally remain vague emotionally so that you don't feel like you are in danger.

[path]

sometimes it literally is a blanket

Welcome to Armageddon!

and not a phrasing thing. people will intentionally phrase things to make sure you are not going to die, in such a way that no hint is given, with no hemotes whatsoever in relation to it.

they intentionally remain vague emotionally so that you don't feel like you are in danger.

Agree. It's not all about Jingo's ability to suss out the situation. Sometimes they're more reserved than usual and it could just be that they're distracted OOC. Sometimes people don't roleplay at all before you're killed. Bam. Knife to back. While it's really fun to have the opportunity to roleplay with someone who's willing to allow for their character's failure, I don't think there's a problem with any of these methods.

Where did you misplace your third person perspective?

This all seems to be coming down to your concerns that people don't roleplay as you wish they would. As far as I can tell, people are doing their best.

[evilcabbage]

refer to mafia:

cabbages post in third person when they feel like it.

[Armaddict]

Not sure how this became all about Jingo exactly.  But he's mirroring thoughts that have been discussed for a few pages now, and as far as I can see, he hasn't yet made a post that is directed at anyone in particular, so it's kind of strange that he's being called out as the one not seeing the big picture of your responses.

I very much see the big picture.  I'm very deeply embroiled in intrigue in the game, because I am a player who does believe that a lot of characters will fight to the top of a body pile, against other people climbing and adding to the same pile.  While not necessarily directly competitive, it often crumbles this way just because people are, again, pushing their own goals and agendas which oftimes need to be protected from other characters doing the same.  And I, despite not having an altogether strong feeling for the Way in particular, do have a strong feeling that plotting/intriguing in the game could use some love/adjustment, for reasons that have been scattered throughout the thread by various facets of discussion that essentially come down to an overall increased exposure to the goings on of our fellow characters, and thus more opportunity for us to impact each other if we're looking for ways to do so.

Spying on people using the method you mentioned, shadowing them, can yield lots of information and maybe not the information you need. It's not the only way to spy, though. You can seduce their lover, you can befriend them. You can send someone else to befriend them. You can pay off someone in their employ. You can pay someone more important to speak with them sternly.

These are all true (aside from the seducing them part.  That is wildly unsuccessful for the most part, for the same reason that people don't go behind locked doors.  Coercion and intimidation work far better in our code-world, despite often being ruined by...the Way)  However, none are anywhere near as effective at uncovering information as the Way is at keeping it.  If you need to keep multiple conversations going at once, that's well and good.  That doesn't have to be taken away.  That's why the compromise to security was being discussed.  It retains that utility while still making the Way a less reliable means of holding secrets dear, and forcing more interesting roleplay in lieu of long-distance instantaneous secret conveyance.

While I won't be worked up if change doesn't happen, I don't find your posts absolutely compelling on why gentle tweaks to it (not complete removal, or making it chaos, as you exaggerated it to) would negatively impact anyone.  I see only bonuses to it being mildly harder to maintain, or with a slight chance of insecurity without dependence on there being an 8 karma player/special app around who actually cares to eavesdrop.  The latter is -not- a risk, which you're very well aware of, because you, too, are smart and experienced.  The instances of that happening outside of tuluk are rare.

Altogether, the shift away from 'I need a mindbender to uncover the plans of my enemies' to 'I need a good spy to keep tabs on them until their plans are revealed' is a bonus in my eyes.  While the latter is still far from infallible, and still requires some smarts...keeping things as they are pushes nothing but:
1) A 'requirement' for a hated class, giving incentive for people to see the usefulness of them rather than follow the documentation (which has happened many times through the course of the game, as you know), and
2) Incentive for those trying to fulfill the spy role to be pigeonholed into undesirable behavior, such as shadowing into places that people don't think shadowing should be possible.  You simply can't afford to miss one of the few times where the Way isn't being used, unless you are a character with no stakes involved who is only curious and gathering information at large for later use.

I think the real question is why do you feel the way shouldn't have risk?

Jingo's question here wasn't really addressed.  It was deflected.  I'm curious as well. Why are even gentle tweaks to the Way to -lower-, rather than eliminate, its viability for plotting something that brings a serious detriment to the game?  Altogether, I think minor tweaks to its security, or a slightly less mild to how it taxes the character using it (Perhaps making 'suffer from the way' a bigger deal, so that shorter messages and contacts become the rule), aren't terrible things to at least experiment with and see how it impacts things.

Or maybe we'll find another way, as a playerbase or as a staff project.

[a french mans shirt]

So, at least in Dark Sun, psionists came about in order to give humans an edge. That's like saying midgets were created to give humans an edge, because that's about how common they are. That part, doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me like you could fix two things at once (if psionists originated as a race saver) by allowing for partial psionists of some sort. People who are useful for information-gathering, but are nothing compared to a true psionicist. (How do you spell that?) I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to learn how to give human minds a couple of extra weaker psionic abilities if they -created a whole race, with breeding and everything- with magick in the distant past.

One I'd like to see is (never had a real one, by the way) being able to toggle an ability to catch between 1-20% of ways depending on how good you are with it. That way, you'd KNOW that nasty elf was actually a rinthi with plans of some sort and then Merchant Mal is really disappointed but you'd have to add those tidbits to what the aide found out for half a picture to form.

[Reiloth]

I think it's dreadfully easy to avoid the question of 'Why make the Way risk free'? Because the Way is incredibly useful, and people don't want to mess with or potentially change that utility.

The thing is, the Way being as it stands is yet another incongruity with the 'harshness' of the world. Just as water should be a scarce commodity, but rarely is, the instant communication across the entire Known World flies in the face of 'Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal'. It is an OOC convenience to make our lives easier, in a MUD that doesn't have OOC channels to communicate. It mirrors Dark Sun, as it does in many ways, in that humans in particular developed psionic powers to combat the terrible onslaught of the wastes, a sort of evolution. This is explained by Humans being the only race that can be Psionicists.

However, by removing the Tuluki Templarate, we now have probably 1-3 Psions in the game. Those that can listen to the Way or thoughts are probably 0-1.

That is a risk free environment.

[Large Hero]

Yes, part of this problem too is the 'must win, must kill competition, must destroy all who oppose me' sort of attitude. It's boring.

[Jingo]

This all seems to be coming down to your concerns that people don't roleplay as you wish they would. As far as I can tell, people are doing their best.

Some don't even try. For them this game is not about telling a story or setting a scene. For them, It's about expressing their dominance through use of mechanics. And my only recourse is to find a way to play around them or have some systems changed.

[Reiloth]

This all seems to be coming down to your concerns that people don't roleplay as you wish they would. As far as I can tell, people are doing their best.

Some don't even try. For them this game is not about telling a story or setting a scene. For them, It's about expressing your dominance through use of mechanics. And my only recourse is to find a way to play around them or have some systems changed.

Another reason I rue the absence of Tuluk. It was a nice way to avoid an area for a few months until people died off or the scenery changed enough to come back to something unrecognizable. Now it feels like watching Cheers.

[Armaddict]

If we could completely redesign it, I'd make the Way more like a passive pool.

Person A sends messages.  Person B uses a very taxing 'check in' to the thought pool to pull out the thoughts sent to him. (Voicemails!)
Person B gets intense, sits down, enters a very taxing, high concentration state(i.e. 'You start receiving...' that is broken by action, but not psionics) to receive messages in real time. (Phone talking)
Occasionally, thoughts get tied up with other thoughts and get pulled out by the wrong person, and occasionally, duplicate thoughts are made so that multiple people receive them. (<1% of cases).
Mindbender A can sift through the passive pool, but has to enter an active concentration (i.e. 'You start listening in...' that is broken by action), very taxing state to monitor it to see who the thoughts are going to.

But that's what I meant by it getting complex quickly if we wanted to actually make it a really dynamic sort of thing.  In lieu of that, I think small chances of 'misfire' establish that middle ground to make the Way still just as useful to everyone but also foster more care and intrigue (Social and inconsequential things aren't a big deal to be misfired.  Only secrets are.)

[Reiloth]

I'd rather just implement the 'distance = harder' scale, and make it a more taxing process in general. The predictability of stun loss per psi, for instance, could be more variable. Passing out from overusing the Way is most certainly the only danger I can perceive currently.

[Armaddict]

I keep agreeing with that, but then I keep getting irritated at the whole 'Waying across the table to avoid saying it out loud' thing.

[evilcabbage]

yes, the whole... sitting at a table, waying each other...

well, we probably all do it, but it would be nice if sometimes the way did something odd, like have a small chance to just send to other people other than your target - within a small area. that way, you might have wayed your plot to assassinate a templar to your buddy... and the militia soldier that happens to be sitting at the bar.



but that sort of failure would not give your desc, just you talking. and if you happen to namedrop your buddy while you do it? well, heh.

that is the price you pay!

[Riev]

Thats all well and good, but the time some people had their thoughts occasionally spoken out loud as says... I know a couple of them just stored or found a way to stop playing for a while to avoid the consequences.


If I'm in the Gaj, waying the person next to me about killing Templar Hardnose, and the AoD PC at the bar has ANY chance of hearing it? And I KNOW he can? I'm just going to do it a room away.

[Reiloth]

Thats all well and good, but the time some people had their thoughts occasionally spoken out loud as says... I know a couple of them just stored or found a way to stop playing for a while to avoid the consequences.


If I'm in the Gaj, waying the person next to me about killing Templar Hardnose, and the AoD PC at the bar has ANY chance of hearing it? And I KNOW he can? I'm just going to do it a room away.

Lame. Loosetongue was one of my favorite things on Lantry.

[Patuk]

Thats all well and good, but the time some people had their thoughts occasionally spoken out loud as says... I know a couple of them just stored or found a way to stop playing for a while to avoid the consequences.


If I'm in the Gaj, waying the person next to me about killing Templar Hardnose, and the AoD PC at the bar has ANY chance of hearing it? And I KNOW he can? I'm just going to do it a room away.

We could get rid of people who don't want to deal with their characters' infallibility being done away with? I don't see how this is a problem.