Psionics: Ideas and discussion on etiquette

[evilcabbage]

plenty of games had decent playerbases and did not have widely accessible telekinetic powers that enabled all forms of communication with 99.9% secrecy.

one of them at one point had comparable numbers to armageddon.

they stopped being a thing only because the staff team left (after a big corruption/cheating thing).

so, take from that what you will.

[KankWhisperer]

plenty of games had decent playerbases and did not have widely accessible telekinetic powers that enabled all forms of communication with 99.9% secrecy.

one of them at one point had comparable numbers to armageddon.

they stopped being a thing only because the staff team left (after a big corruption/cheating thing).

so, take from that what you will.

Like which games?  How big was the world?  Was there channels? Was there any other kind of OOC conveniences to make up for it?

[evilcabbage]

shadow of isildurs when i played it easily had 30+ players, fairly sure it hit 50ish on the regular.

there was no ooc channel apart from the same convenience arm has for ooc.

the world was -quite- large, and moving to (and) from a room had a delay on it.


so.

yeah.

[solera]

It is sad that half of the PC psionists were removed from the game last year. That only leaves the other half.

[Jingo]

I feel that whatever mechanic comes into play, should be widely available. I think anyone can be a spy, and anyone should have the basic tools needed to spy.

Everyone can be a spy and everyone does have the basic tools, of which the Way is one. A really awesome one. I've read this entire thread and I can't wrap my brain around the issues you're experiencing. Can you mock up some examples for me?

I'd like a spice that heightens the Way and then snuffs it out on the comedown, so you can't contact or psi out for a bit. Drugs!

Functionally, the Way is (or should be) a tool of convenience to communicate over distances. More often than not it's used as a tool to communicate discretely.

Suppose you want to know what character a is up to with regard to character b. If you don't ask obliquely, then you only have one real other option and that's to stealthily follow one of them around until you get an idea. (Or get someone else to do it.) But none of that matters if they just decide the information they're sharing is too sensitive and load it up onto the The Way.

The issue is that no matter what skills of observation you have, you'll never know if they have been communicating via the way. This leads to all sorts of bizarre situations such as being able to plot someone's death right in front of them. Or with 50% of the communication in a social setting being secret way-traffic.

My favorite example: A templar once bitched out my legionaire for whispering instead of contacting him psionically. The subtext being that since there is a chance for someone hear a whisper, then it is inferior to just using psionics. At that point I remember asking myself about what the point of the whisper is if it's invalidated by psionics. Because there is no way to listen in on psionics and there is virtually no risk to sharing information that way.

[KankWhisperer]

shadow of isildurs when i played it easily had 30+ players, fairly sure it hit 50ish on the regular.

there was no ooc channel apart from the same convenience arm has for ooc.

the world was -quite- large, and moving to (and) from a room had a delay on it.


so.

yeah.

When I played, although the world was large, you had to basically join or apprentice with someone or you couldn't get much done at all. Armageddon is pretty free. You can make it economically on your own and everyone isn't forced to interact.  

SOI also been up and down a few times iirc.  So there's that.

I think people need to do a cost benefit analysis of removing the way considering the scattered nature of the playerbase. Some could argue that no way would force people to congregate more. It's possible, but I would personally hate it, and I disagree. I'm alright with mundanes having a little more powers to make waying more dangerous. Give everyone psionic listen at extremely low cap. 1 in a 100 chance someone in the room hears a way but you can't tell where it came from.

[evilcabbage]

your point about joining someone does not detract from the fact that you did not need psionic communication powers to converse with people, and the playerbase is not 'that' scattered. it would be trivial for people to run from outpost to outpost delivering messages. in fact, it would give people even more to do.

[BadSkeelz]

Removing the Way isn't the answer. As others have said, it's too critical a tool for interaction for iso-roles, newbies, and others.

What needs addressing is the Security of the Way. The high Security of Way communications is what encourages players to make use of it in situations requiring secrecy. It's what leads to players using the Way to communicate when they're sitting at the same table.

[Delirium]

Security of the Way tends to be an all or nothing affair. Finding ways to make that more granular would be ideal.

[Molten Heart]

.

[KankWhisperer]

I may be wrong here but doesn't the existence and threat of mind benders invalidate the argument that the way is a secure mode of communication?

If this is still a problem, maybe a solution would be more mind benders.

I think people want mundanes to have more use in spying. I don't think they want more people who can spy and break plots with little to no risk to themselves.

[BadSkeelz]

Security of the Way tends to be an all or nothing affair. Finding ways to make that more granular would be ideal.

Agreed.

I may be wrong here but doesn't the existence and threat of mind benders invalidate the argument that the way is a secure mode of communication?

It should, and I encourage sponsored roles to think like this. In-character the Way should be thought of as unsecured.

But the fact of the metagame is that Mindworm characters are rare, and the skills that make the Way insecure are apparently rather late in their progression. This makes the Way a much more secure choice than other avenues of communication.

[KankWhisperer]

I think the problem with the way is the binary nature of its infallibility. Either you way them or not. Nothing really every goes haywire. So have, like I stated above a chance the way goes awry depending on your skill level, being drunk, wisdom and so forth and so on. On a fail, the way is echoed to someone in the room, but they can't see who it came from. HGs fail alot. Have it retconned so this is known to happen so everyone doesn't flip out. Drunk and HG ways would amuse me.

You sense the following telepathic message:
   "<INSERT SOMETHING FUNNY HERE>"

[BadSkeelz]

I'd love to see fails like that. I'm not sure I'd change how alcohol currently blocks the Way, however. It's the only real method we have to "prevent" someone from using the Way - I use "prevent" lightly because we have to rely on the other character's player to code-willing chug alcohol enough to blot themselves. I wonder if the new pour code allows us to force-feed people alcohol as a means to blotting their mind?

[Armaddict]

Removing the Way isn't the answer. As others have said, it's too critical a tool for interaction for iso-roles, newbies, and others.

What needs addressing is the Security of the Way. The high Security of Way communications is what encourages players to make use of it in situations requiring secrecy. It's what leads to players using the Way to communicate when they're sitting at the same table.

While I don't agree that the Way is an absolute necessity, I'm not necessarily on the side of complete removal.  I just think it needs some shaking up to address what Jingo said and what you're saying here.

I enjoy when I can stay in communication with people I enjoy playing with while out and doing other things.  But I don't enjoy that it trumps most forms of communication for most situations outside of that scenario, or some of the other uses of the Way (I really do hate the 'Are they online?' check and the 'What's your sdesc under that hood?' check).

Overall, I look for a balance that addresses these things.  I want there to be a reason for people to meet in person as much as possible when it comes to clandestine or secretive things.  I want for bodyguards to be necessary.  I want back alley meetings.  I want active spy games.  I do not want to unnecessarily make things hard, but the previous goals often make it that way (a side note:  Newbies are not dependent on the way.  Most enter the game with no knowledge of the way, and are -taught- dependence on the Way).

The increasing difficulty of its use always seemed to be the 'easiest' fix for this, despite it removing the prevalence what I often use the Way for, which is social.  But to address all the concerns while maintaining its current utility...I think there will be no easy fix, and we're going to have to brainstorm a seriously in-depth, complex system of checks and balances with it.

Edit:  Adjusted quote because for some reason part of it didn't come into this post, and it was relevant to why I responded.

[Delirium]

I'd love to see fails like that. I'm not sure I'd change how alcohol currently blocks the Way, however. It's the only real method we have to "prevent" someone from using the Way - I use "prevent" lightly because we have to rely on the other character's player to code-willing chug alcohol enough to blot themselves. I wonder if the new pour code allows us to force-feed people alcohol as a means to blotting their mind?

Alcohol is not the only method. And the pour command does open up distinct possibilities for way-blocking.

Find out more IC!

[nauta]

I think the problem with the way is the binary nature of its infallibility. Either you way them or not. Nothing really every goes haywire. So have, like I stated above a chance the way goes awry depending on your skill level, being drunk, wisdom and so forth and so on. On a fail, the way is echoed to someone in the room, but they can't see who it came from. HGs fail alot. Have it retconned so this is known to happen so everyone doesn't flip out. Drunk and HG ways would amuse me.

You sense the following telepathic message:
   "<INSERT SOMETHING FUNNY HERE>"

This would be extremely awesome!  Extremely awesome.

In my humble opinion, the hermetic nature of the way has led to a lot of frustrations -- both as spy / information gatherer and also, let's be honest, as a player -- and I've done it myself: the 'statue phenomenon' where people don't (because it's hard!) emote and interact with those in the room while waying.

Personally, I would like to see adjustments that encourage face-to-face, but still allow for brief telepathic options. 

One solution is to make the way less reliable in certain situations, namely, when others are in the same room.  I love the idea of your ways sometimes being broadcast to others in the room -- this would be so very cool, and it kind of makes sense on one level of viewing telepathy magick or whatever.

Perhaps it could be a skill, like watch, that everyone has (or everyone with 'expel')...

[a french mans shirt]

As someone who never gets involved in the politicks and the power I always wondered why a few of the people who introduced themselves to me at my table did so over the fucking way. I would almost invariably reply to them with physical words. From now on, I will always do so. You take risks, boyo.

[Jingo]

I may be wrong here but doesn't the existence and threat of mind benders invalidate the argument that the way is a secure mode of communication?

If this is still a problem, maybe a solution would be more mind benders.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I'd be surprised if any psi has developed this ability since the lirathans were taken out. And even if they did and were in a position to intercept way messages; they are probably far more worried about getting metagamed by the powers that be to even worry about your plot.

Source: Last three psionicists I played.

[Reiloth]

I feel that a happy medium could be reached. The psionicist guild tree could definitely use splitting / enhancement. What I mean by this is allowing the 'Read Your Thoughts and Emotions' sort of Empath to be a lower karma rating (Say 5 or 6 instead of . They wouldn't get any offensive abilities (not that those are earth shattering currently, with Willpower being what it is). Their abilities would revolve more around passive listening to the Way and thoughts.

The downsides for Psions are already apparent. There are incredible downsides to playing the Psion, the least of which is 'you can fuck up royally at anytime if you try on a PC and then you are outed instantly'. Playing the running for your life game gets boring, quick. Their offensive abilities typically require close proximity to the target, and no ability to hide who it came from, in essence 100% outing yourself.

Having more of them around (and more of an extended subguild akin to Magick) would probably be the way i'd like to see it in the future. That makes:

*Using the Way less fool proof.
*Psions more scary (because they aren't that scary right now)
*More varying degrees of Psion, just as there are varying degrees of Magicker (Touched/Paths).

[Reiloth]

plenty of games had decent playerbases and did not have widely accessible telekinetic powers that enabled all forms of communication with 99.9% secrecy.

one of them at one point had comparable numbers to armageddon.

they stopped being a thing only because the staff team left (after a big corruption/cheating thing).

so, take from that what you will.

Like which games?  How big was the world?  Was there channels? Was there any other kind of OOC conveniences to make up for it?

I feel the major hold up/hang up is that -- Everyone has Psionics, and almost no one can read or write.

So -- In another crazy universe where 80% of Zalanthans could read and write (or 50% or whatever), and they could use a messenger service to get messages around, the Way would be less required. The development of the Way (at least according to Dark Sun) was to give humans an advantage in an otherwise desolate world surrounded by super-buff mutant races. In ArmageddonMUD, it's obviously for the OOC convenience of seeing who's online and keeping in touch with people without needing to meet with them.

I don't think the Way should go away, I lean towards Armaddict's understanding. Alterations to make the Way less 100% reliable, increasing the difficulty of using it in certain situations or weather conditions, increasing the difficulty for a full message to be received over long distances, give a chance to randomly way your message to another PC who is online, make Psions more of a threat and a presence in the world. I think there's plenty that -could- be done. But that doesn't mean it needs to be done.

I think the example given earlier of a Templar telling a minion to Way instead of Whisper is poor meta play. We should be delighted to have our secret plots possibly overheard and foiled. We should whisper, instead of Way, and keep assuming that a cabal of Psions are listening to your every thought and Way. The more we isolate plotting / counter-plotting, the more boring the game is on the surface. The more boring it is on the surface, the less people want to play or even care about your plots.

Get plotting out in the open -- Meet in Booths, whisper, talk, say things out loud. Don't try to keep a perfectly secret plot, I think that's something we can effect as Players rather than needing to look so closely at the Way.

[Jingo]

Get plotting out in the open -- Meet in Booths, whisper, talk, say things out loud. Don't try to keep a perfectly secret plot, I think that's something we can effect as Players rather than needing to look so closely at the Way.

I want to agree with this. And this may just be confirmation bias speaking.

But I find the leaders that do this just don't last as long, as someone who isn't interested in playing on that level invariably catches wind of what you're up to and ruins your fun by over escalating too quickly.

[Armaddict]

Get plotting out in the open -- Meet in Booths, whisper, talk, say things out loud. Don't try to keep a perfectly secret plot, I think that's something we can effect as Players rather than needing to look so closely at the Way.

I want to agree with this. And this may just be confirmation bias speaking.

But I find the leaders that do this just don't last as long as the leaders that play mother hen with their plots. But someone who isn't interested in playing on that level invariably catches wind of what you're up to and ruins your fun by over escalating too quickly.

I can understand this viewpoint.  But that's why we seem to want to end up having to enforce it with code rather than just ask players to do it.  Everyone has every incentive to play mother hen, with no incentive to share it, just like everyone not involved has incentive to discover it so that they, too, can profit in their knowledge of this event.  Sometimes it's to directly interfere.  Sometimes it's because there should be other interested parties to it.  But that is, in reality, what makes plots interesting, is the efforts made to keep it secret.  The current form just makes it much easier to that end, and leaves others twinking out in efforts to circumvent a too-effective method.  Or just being patient and selective with what they discover.  But the latter is harder to come by.

I won't forget the one time I was exposed to a meeting between people who shouldn't have a reason to meet.  So I went to that meeting place beforehand and 'posted up', eager to find out what this was all about.  To my disappointment, they sat across from each other and stared, made a couple facial expressions, then parted ways.  It was so disappointing.  I wasn't sure why they bothered meeting face to face.  Instead, I had to make do with knowledge that they were in discussion with each other...and didn't get to decide whether I wanted it to continue or not, or help, or hinder.  Instead, I had to just save it, sell that information to someone who was interested to know that those two people had meetings, and get a favor from -that- person in return.  Who knows what ended there...I didn't get a chance to decide whether or not I liked that plot.  I just had to get benefit out of it happening.  That's...kind of the catch of player involvement in player plots.  There will be people for it, and people against it, and everyone trying to push their goals along.


Complete random sidenote:  I hate the 'Are you online?' psionic checks.  Make a chance for your identity to be revealed when you contact people or something to make it have some sort of drawback.  ("Why does this guy keep entering my head and leaving?")

[Reiloth]

Yes, part of this problem too is the 'must win, must kill competition, must destroy all who oppose me' sort of attitude. It's boring.

[Jingo]

Yeah. I agree that Reiloth is talking about THE IDEAL. But there are powerful incentives that work in the opposite direction.

Even when I discuss this thing ooc I get told that I should expect an inordinate response at the first tick of plotflict. And that it's my fault for not organizing to kill them via the easiest means possible as soon as possible in lieu of any nuanced approach.

Edit: woooo way off topics