Roleplaying having 'scan' vs not having it

[Jihelu]

I mean.
If you had master leather making I'm sure you could mc some glass goggles right?
Or some sort of obsidian crafting

[nauta]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_%28optics%29#History

I'd like to see burning-glasses in the game -- for lighting fires.  But seeing lenses require something of a sophistication and the right confluence of events to get off the ground.

(Although the steam-punkstress in me really really wants leather goggles.)

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think they're described well in-game, at least I can't remember them being so.

[Warsong]

As a side note, I personally think scan, hide, and sneak should be available to everyone without exception, but at apprentice level, with the guilds that specialize in that sort of thing getting bonuses where appropriate.  In fact, if you want to get technical, I would make them racial skills, and vary based on race.  The half-giant might start with novice stealth, for instance, for obvious reasons.  That means that a human merchant in camouflage gear might be able to hide from a half-elf warrior without a scan improving subguild if they get lucky...  That seems completely reasonable to me.  At the same time, I'd like environmental conditions to buff or nerf stealth.  If it's day time, scan gets a universal bonus, making it harder to hide.  At night, the reverse is true.  

The idea isn't stupid or anything, but it wouldn't really do anything as apprentice level in those skills is pretty useless. Apprentice scan will detect nothing, and apprentice stealth skills will almost never succeed. I suppose technically the apprentice scanner might detect the apprentice hider, but I don't see why anybody would ever try to use such a low hide skill in any situation that matters enough to where being spotted means anything. What the game needs is simply a search feature that anyone can do, but which takes long enough that a hidden person has ample time to sneak away before getting found. Maybe make it indoors/city only, with wilderness rooms being "too big to search." Then scan can be for more active and experienced gleaning of hidden people/animals, and the ability to attack them before they know you've discovered them. That makes perfect sense, too, and seems to better solve the issue of knowing someone's hidden in your apartment but being completely powerless to look for them.

[Asmoth]

Scan and listen are some of the skills I think everyone should have. Just maxable at different levels.

But I have seen some odd quirks on characters without scan, like seeing a hidden person randomly when I don't have scan active and such, so I don't know how the system works entirely.

[IntuitiveApathy]

if we were allowed to have glass goggles (there is glass, there is leather, I really think it's a reasonable invention), I could see those aiding scan.

sunslits a'la Kanye West like we have now, no.

I could have sworn a particular Byn sergeant with calico hair (anyone? I forget his name) had a pair 10+ RL years ago. Or something very similar.

Edited to add:
I also kinda think every guild should be able to sneak, hide, climb, scan, and listen to maybe apprentice, barring racial traits/disability of course.

Haldane?

What about expanding the search command/skill to allow anyone to find hidden people in the same room, since everyone can do it to some degree already?  It seems like it might be possible code-wise to do such a thing, since it was recently expanded to allow people to find buried items?  

It takes a pretty long time already, so I'm not sure it'd be hugely game-breaking for stealthy types and you can't do anything coded while searching else the search is broken.  If possible code-wise, maybe the search time could even be extended if the hider's skill is higher, or if a searcher's skill is lower, etc.  It also wouldn't take away from those guilds that have scan necessarily, as it doesn't instantly allow for detection upon walking in or a look command as scan does.

[Doublepalli]

Some people will abuse another pc not having scan, as well.

Ex: I'm sitting in a bar. I've emoted my back to the bar, watching the crowd and those around me idly.

Stealthy will come up, emote out bumping into you, while remaining hidden.
Stealthy will come up, emote out flicking your ear, or some dumb crap just to get on your nerves, while remaining hidden.
Stealthy will come up, whisper to you, while remaining hidden.

And this kind of powermoting I've actually gone into OOC with, and been like dude, at least respect the game environment enough to know my Pc isn't blind, deaf, and dumb. And actually been punished for it by staff, as another, (or likely said player) reported.

Alot of people assume, because you don't have scan, you are -totally blind- to what's going on around you. Even if you're roleplaying out searching like a mofo, or being extremely aware of your surroundings, at this moment, people just don't care. Oh, you don't have scan? I can do anything and you could never notice. Nope, not ever. Even if I was going down on yah while hidden, you still wouldn't notice - cuz i'm hidden, and you don't have scan.

Yes, this is an example from in game, from well over at least two, to three RL years ago. My pc, and said pc in question, are without doubt long gone.

[Desertman]

Probably the worst abuse of this I have ever seen was a player bar fighting while using the hide command in the middle of a tavern over and over and over again.

When you see this sort of thing, just submit a player complaint. I've never seen anything good come from an OOC debate with someone actually in the game.

I've had so many people go, "OMG I am so mad OOC and I am so madbro I have to TELL YOU OOC YOU SUCK!!!!".

I've never once responded to them. Never so much as a single word. I just keep doing whatever I'm doing to them IG.

They just get a player complaint filed against them.

I've never once had staff tell me I was in the wrong.

Report them, move on with your life. If they are the sort of shitbird to pull that then 9/10 times they are the ones fucking up to begin with.

Also when they throw a power emote I find it absolutely fine to throw one back until they get the picture.

The stealthy moves up and flicks your ear while remaining hidden while you are sitting at the bar facing the crowd with your back to the bar.

emote actually @'s ear wasn't flicked because he's facing the crowd while leaning against the bar.

Then just refuse to respond to their emote beyond that.

[hyzhenhok]

Some people will abuse another pc not having scan, as well.

Ex: I'm sitting in a bar. I've emoted my back to the bar, watching the crowd and those around me idly.

Stealthy will come up, emote out bumping into you, while remaining hidden.
Stealthy will come up, emote out flicking your ear, or some dumb crap just to get on your nerves, while remaining hidden.
Stealthy will come up, whisper to you, while remaining hidden.

And this kind of powermoting I've actually gone into OOC with, and been like dude, at least respect the game environment enough to know my Pc isn't blind, deaf, and dumb. And actually been punished for it by staff, as another, (or likely said player) reported.

Alot of people assume, because you don't have scan, you are -totally blind- to what's going on around you. Even if you're roleplaying out searching like a mofo, or being extremely aware of your surroundings, at this moment, people just don't care. Oh, you don't have scan? I can do anything and you could never notice. Nope, not ever. Even if I was going down on yah while hidden, you still wouldn't notice - cuz i'm hidden, and you don't have scan.

Yes, this is an example from in game, from well over at least two, to three RL years ago. My pc, and said pc in question, are without doubt long gone.

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

[Doublepalli]

Probably the worst abuse of this I have ever seen was a player bar fighting while using the hide command in the middle of a tavern over and over and over again.

When you see this sort of thing, just submit a player complaint. I've never seen anything good come from an OOC debate with someone actually in the game.

I've had so many people go, "OMG I am so mad OOC and I am so madbro I have to TELL YOU OOC YOU SUCK!!!!".

I've never once responded to them. Never so much as a single word. I just keep doing whatever I'm doing to them IG.

They just get a player complaint filed against them.

I've never once had staff tell me I was in the wrong.

Report them, move on with your life. If they are the sort of shitbird to pull that then 9/10 times they are the ones fucking up to begin with.

Also when they throw a power emote I find it absolutely fine to throw one back until they get the picture.

The stealthy moves up and flicks your ear while remaining hidden while you are sitting at the bar facing the crowd with your back to the bar.

emote actually @'s ear wasn't flicked because he's facing the crowd while leaning against the bar.

Then just refuse to respond to their emote beyond that.

Spot on my friend.

[Doublepalli]

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

Okay, and who are they to decide what YOUR pc is, and is not capable of?

[Desertman]

Some people will abuse another pc not having scan, as well.

Ex: I'm sitting in a bar. I've emoted my back to the bar, watching the crowd and those around me idly.

Stealthy will come up, emote out bumping into you, while remaining hidden.
Stealthy will come up, emote out flicking your ear, or some dumb crap just to get on your nerves, while remaining hidden.
Stealthy will come up, whisper to you, while remaining hidden.

And this kind of powermoting I've actually gone into OOC with, and been like dude, at least respect the game environment enough to know my Pc isn't blind, deaf, and dumb. And actually been punished for it by staff, as another, (or likely said player) reported.

Alot of people assume, because you don't have scan, you are -totally blind- to what's going on around you. Even if you're roleplaying out searching like a mofo, or being extremely aware of your surroundings, at this moment, people just don't care. Oh, you don't have scan? I can do anything and you could never notice. Nope, not ever. Even if I was going down on yah while hidden, you still wouldn't notice - cuz i'm hidden, and you don't have scan.

Yes, this is an example from in game, from well over at least two, to three RL years ago. My pc, and said pc in question, are without doubt long gone.

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

If you feel someone is not treating your Master Sneak correctly you should submit a player complaint. It is likely you will just be countering their own player complaint against you for what they feel is your stealthy power emote. Having Master Sneak is not a key to power emote.

In reality, it comes down to personal opinion. I've only had to shut down "shit sneakers" maybe twice in almost 18 RL years, so it's not like it's a big problem.

[hyzhenhok]

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

Okay, and who are they to decide what YOUR pc is, and is not capable of?

They didn't. The code decides. It's not any different than any other coded contest. This is a MUD.

Feel free to emote carefully watching the crowd, hand on your purse with your back to the bar--but the scan code decides how well your character executes it. Just like the stealth player is free to semote trying to hide behind someone taller, passing by you in a crowd, bumping into you and deftly swapping out your purse for a rotting petoch fruit. The sneak, hide, and steal code decide whether they succeed and whether someone sees them.

[valeria]

The thing is, if they're otherwise using semote/hemote and you don't see it while they stealthily approach you from whatever angle, you really don't know if what they're trying to do is something they'd be capable of.

If someone semoted using the cover of a passing drunk to flick your ear, or whisper a single phrase, it might make sense. And while I think extended hidden conversations rarely make sense, I can picture circumstances where they might.

That's why if you feel like someone is abusing something stealthy, you really do have to file a complaint. Staff are the only people who can see everything that's going on and decide if it's appropriate.

All that said, I've not personally been the victim of someone using sneak in such a ridiculous way in RL years (and even that was a single isolated incident that was arguably legitimate), so I have to wonder how often it happens.

[Desertman]

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

Okay, and who are they to decide what YOUR pc is, and is not capable of?

They didn't. The code decides. It's not any different than any other coded contest. This is a MUD.

Feel free to emote carefully watching the crowd, hand on your purse with your back to the bar--but the scan code decides how well your character executes it. Just like the stealth player is free to semote trying to hide behind someone taller, passing by you in a crowd, bumping into you and deftly swapping out your purse for a rotting petoch fruit. The sneak, hide, and steal code decide whether they succeed and whether someone sees them.

Unfortunately your argument that the code is backing your stealth emote and allowing you to basically emote what you want isn't founded.

You can emote anything you want and the code doesn't necessarily back and/or dictate if you are succeeding.

This is not just for stealth skills.

It works with a lot of other skills.

Let's say the code supports and backs up the fact I punch someone.

I codedly attack them. It says I successfully hit them.

I can not then, in good faith, emote that I did a super Street Fighter Ryu uppercut leaping fifteen feet into the air to give my blow the force of a thousand suns.



Why? Because even though the code is backing the fact that yes, I hit them, I do not get to unrealistically emote and assign properties to my coded abilities that aren't fitting.

It falls right in line with, "You can't sneak up on someone and flick their ear without them seeing you when they are facing a room watching the crowd with their back to an obstacle.".

Yes, the code says you are sneaking, but that doesn't assign you super human abilities and impunity to emote super human abilities with immunity.

Furthermore, you have absolutely no idea that they aren't hemoting watching YOU the entire time because their scan has seen you.

You can work under the assumption that they haven't, but, you are only assuming.

In general, all you can do is try and roleplay realistically without assigning a character super natural abilities via the emote command just because, "the code says I'm sneaking".

[hyzhenhok]

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

Okay, and who are they to decide what YOUR pc is, and is not capable of?

They didn't. The code decides. It's not any different than any other coded contest. This is a MUD.

Feel free to emote carefully watching the crowd, hand on your purse with your back to the bar--but the scan code decides how well your character executes it. Just like the stealth player is free to semote trying to hide behind someone taller, passing by you in a crowd, bumping into you and deftly swapping out your purse for a rotting petoch fruit. The sneak, hide, and steal code decide whether they succeed and whether someone sees them.

Unfortunately your argument that the code is backing your stealth emote and allowing you to basically emote what you want isn't founded.

Good thing I didn't argue that.

No, the stealthy pickpocked doesn't get to semote "clings to the ceiling with his sticky feet where nobody sees him because they aren't looking up, and uses his elastic arms to reach 20 feet across the room and telekenetically removes all of the coins from %amos backpack." The point is you should give your fellow players the benefit of the doubt that they aren't doing that.

[MeTekillot]

Truth be told, I just roleplay not having scan as being literally retarded and that has never failed me before.

[Desertman]

What you're doing here is trying to power emote something that is governed by code. You don't get to defeat stealth just by emotes. You don't get to decide what other PCs are capable of. You don't get decide what other PCs can and cannot do. You don't get to decide that stealth characters can't do something without being spotted by you. If I'm a master sneak, I'm sorry you can't see my semotes explaining how I am darting around the room, blending in, staying out of your sight. But frankly, it shows a great lack of respect for you to assume that I'm doing something unrealistic and impossible, and just using stealth as an invisibility cloak and standing right in front of you.

Being at the mercy of a master sneak is frustrating, but there's no question that trying to defeat them by power emoting or using the OOC function is not the proper way to respond. If you think they are acting unrealistically, file a player complaint. I assure you, staff are perfectly willing to review stealth characters' play and prod their players to better hemote and semote.

Okay, and who are they to decide what YOUR pc is, and is not capable of?

They didn't. The code decides. It's not any different than any other coded contest. This is a MUD.

Feel free to emote carefully watching the crowd, hand on your purse with your back to the bar--but the scan code decides how well your character executes it. Just like the stealth player is free to semote trying to hide behind someone taller, passing by you in a crowd, bumping into you and deftly swapping out your purse for a rotting petoch fruit. The sneak, hide, and steal code decide whether they succeed and whether someone sees them.

Unfortunately your argument that the code is backing your stealth emote and allowing you to basically emote what you want isn't founded.

Good thing I didn't argue that.

No, the stealthy pickpocked doesn't get to semote "clings to the ceiling with his sticky feet where nobody sees him because they aren't looking up, and uses his elastic arms to reach 20 feet across the room and telekenetically removes all of the coins from %amos backpack." The point is you should give your fellow players the benefit of the doubt that they aren't doing that.

Then we agree with each other. Fair enough. Having stealth skills doesn't allow you to emote stealthy successes. They only allow you to complete coded skills successfully (or possibly fail them).

[Armaddict]

Eh.

In the case of them whispering or something like that, I'd break it down to them feeling the need to remain anonymous, which is not a viable IC option for one who comes out of stealth despite the fact that it should, in theory, be possible for you to let someone see your V-for-Vendetta self and not have them instantly able to describe you.  So just break it down to someone who was well-cloaked or hard to discern despite you seeing them, and move on.

In the other case, sure it may be mildly annoying, but it's not exactly something to meltdown over.  People love to hate on the use of stealth, but most of the time, I actually attribute it to the exact reason why stealthies play this way; there is a drive in the playerbase to know exactly who's doing what at all times around them, which is the opposite of what someone being stealthy wants.  So unless they're actually causing an issue (i.e. D-man's brawling while hiding thing), I'd just shrug and move on, and even remove myself from their sphere of influence if need be.

However, I will agree that it can be irritating.  But I'm also firmly of the stance that saying other players who are codedly supported in their ability to do things -are- able to do some things like that.  Hopefully, they can be made aware of all those variables that you describe in emotes and modify their behavior to make it in keeping with the story, but that is not always the luxury, and sometimes coded ability to do things needs to be given the go ahead for 'Well, circumstances were weird, but your character was good enough to find a way to figure out how to get it done.'

As a benign example...a guy with master climb climbs up a wall.  It's described as a sheer surface.  He is not making emotes on his way up.  At the top, we have Joe the vigilant wall-protector, who is pouring oil down the wall.  Guy has no idea Joe is doing such, but he's a master climber who climbs all the time.  This is directly going against Joe's story, but Joe has no coded ability, or at least is not utilizing it, to prevent guy's climb checks.  You will have to assume that guy was able to find a way, and play around it...not demand that he go back to the bottom and find a new way because of how you've been playing.

The same goes for stealth skills.  Sometimes, you just have to assume they've found a way, because all it comes down to is a character using their skills at their disposal, and very well...and you're depending on a skill you don't have, or that is not viable enough to match theirs.  Code ultimately decides what characters can and cannot do, and if you think someone is -abusing- the code, it's your duty to report it so it can be investigated; at the very least, it forces them to explain some sort of rationale to the staff that will show it was either in the realm of possibility, or not.  But jumping straight to 'nope, not possible because this roleplay trumps your code' is actually an argument I lost by having a character force-stored, in the past, when I used it against a staff member who stole an item despite all of my attempts to roleplay an unstealable scenario.  Code trumps all, unless it's abused, in which case you make sure the appropriate people are made aware.

[Delirium]

Game's a lot more fun when you assume the best of other players. Even if they're crappy abusive jokers, just fill in the story in your head.

I don't always succeed at this, but hey.

[nauta]

While not always the case, often things can be a lot more fun for sneak and sneaked-upon alike if the sneak tosses out some flavour emotes so that the victim can emote or feel an appropriate response, e.g.:

em from a hot breeze the scent of pymlithe wafts from me nearby.

This will get turned into (on a failed scan):

From a hot breeze the scent of pymlithe wafts from someone nearby.

As the victim of the hidden barfighter, my biggest complaint there wasn't so much power-emoting --- I agree with hyzenhooks points that the code is such that sneaks can do a lot of things without you noticing, despite what you might want, unless you have the coded skills to combat it). 

Rather, I was a bit upset that I couldn't RP an appropriate response, since I had no idea what the heck was going on.  Hence, sneaks can really improve things by setting the scene with emotes for the victim, allowing them to RP a response.

[Doublepalli]

You all are missing some key points. Sit at a bar, with your back to it, and casually take in the room. You're going to tell me, someone with master sneak, because code, can walk up to you, in your personal bubble, and flick your ear, or whisper into your ear, or otherwise, and not be noticed? (I never mentioned being pickpocketed)  I forgot to add, said sneak had been visible, and identified beforehand, and spoken to before hand.  'code' does not allow you to be the invisible, shadow-force-emoting master of all sneaks, I'm sorry, wether in a RL or In game sense in the above examples, and that's what I'm getting at people. there are simply some lines you don't cross, and I've seen it happen. And if you somehow, do think the above is possible, then he would have had to be a whiran, to be magically invisible. Which he wasn't.

[Armaddict]

You all are missing some key points. Sit at a bar, with your back to it, and casually take in the room. You're going to tell me, someone with master sneak, because code, can walk up to you, in your personal bubble, and flick your ear, or whisper into your ear, or otherwise, and not be noticed? (I never mentioned being pickpocketed)  I forgot to add, said sneak had been visible, and identified beforehand, and spoken to before hand.  'code' does not allow you to be the invisible, shadow-force-emoting master of all sneaks, I'm sorry, wether in a RL or In game sense in the above examples, and that's what I'm getting at people. there are simply some lines you don't cross, and I've seen it happen.

You're speaking in circumstances that are the gist of what the replies are;  If you feel code is being -abused-, then report it.  However, emoting that you're leaning back and watching the room does not make you immune to stealth, which seems to be the assertion you're trying to push.  That is disagreed with, but that is not to say that said sneakiness you're describing is not worthy of investigation.

Again, complaints against stealth are some of the most common in the game, and that is because of the neverending desire to be all-aware vs the neverending desire to be unseen.  They will always be at odds with each other.  One is supported by code, the other is destroyed by how roleplay is used, and this keeps them constantly wary and disapproving of each other.

If you're speaking about a specific event, then this board is not the place.  If you're talking about the concept, then I think the replies given are fitting.

[Doublepalli]

You all are missing some key points. Sit at a bar, with your back to it, and casually take in the room. You're going to tell me, someone with master sneak, because code, can walk up to you, in your personal bubble, and flick your ear, or whisper into your ear, or otherwise, and not be noticed? (I never mentioned being pickpocketed)  I forgot to add, said sneak had been visible, and identified beforehand, and spoken to before hand.  'code' does not allow you to be the invisible, shadow-force-emoting master of all sneaks, I'm sorry, wether in a RL or In game sense in the above examples, and that's what I'm getting at people. there are simply some lines you don't cross, and I've seen it happen.

You're speaking in circumstances that are the gist of what the replies are;  If you feel code is being -abused-, then report it.  However, emoting that you're leaning back and watching the room does not make you immune to stealth, which seems to be the assertion you're trying to push.  That is disagreed with, but that is not to say that said sneakiness you're describing is not worthy of investigation.

Again, complaints against stealth are some of the most common in the game, and that is because of the neverending desire to be all-aware vs the neverending desire to be unseen.  They will always be at odds with each other.  One is supported by code, the other is destroyed by how roleplay is used, and this keeps them constantly wary and disapproving of each other.

If you're speaking about a specific event, then this board is not the place.  If you're talking about the concept, then I think the replies given are fitting.

Again, you're missing the point. This isn't about being 'all aware', this is a thread about roleplaying scan. What I'm getting at, is just because you don't have scan, does not mean you are -completely- oblivious to everything that goes on around you - or inches in front of your face. And sneaks, need to take that into account before being flawless sneaks of unparalleled possibilities. Sure, I give sneaks the benefit of the doubt. But they, need to give players the benefit of the doubt that they are not completely blind just because they may not have scan, or - their scan isn't high enough.


And - Code this, code that people, are you going to justify crappy coded mechanics to the impossible in an RPI? Yes, code allows for alot, but there is -difficult- that can be played off by master sneaks, and there is -impossible- that no coded action can justify. Like fighting in a 'tok den, unarmed, weighed down, in the dark, you cannot justify what said person is doing.

[Armaddict]

...again, if you feel something was abused so that it was inches in front of your face and you didn't see it, I suggest you file a report.

However, the responses of the thread still seem accurate, and diverse, and addressing your concern.  Personally, as in the example I gave, I don't think emoting either guarantees that you should be able to trump skills just because you want it to (and again, I've been in the position of being outright told such was not the case), nor reliably conveys that information to everyone; sometimes you come in to take an action, and you emoted your position a full three or four minutes before, leaving me no information of such as a late comer.

I can't really explain further beyond that.  I can only reiterate that you seem to have specific events in mind, which makes the player complaint really the only option.  Conceptually, though, I rely on the game to tell me what I can and can't do, because I am not omniscient about circumstances played out by everyone at all points, nor am I fond of falling back on very subjective information such as how crowded a room is or how much space there is between you and the nearest patron or the next barstool beside you or the virtual people moving past your character at any given point to order drinks.  There's just too much interpretation involved.  So file the complaint, and have it investigated.