Magickal auto-defense system in Cities

[Incognito]

So, we've had this implemented for a while now, and I thought it'd be worthwhile to ask players and Staff alike, what they think about it.

Is it something that's worked to the betterment of the game?

Would we like a roll-back on this "feature" and go back to the old ways?

Are there any tweaks that anyone wants to suggest?

In particular, do magickers feel they've been neutered in any way?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it was more fun and dangerous - when magick wasn't auto-magickally neutralized and detected in the City-States. Same goes for auto-crim-code for casting in certain places - which used to be kosher earlier. Yes, there were some players who did abuse certain spells from time to time, and I think that the changes to those specific spells is enough to curtail the overpowered ease with which they could be used to kill/subdue/*do other bad things* to other PCs. What are your thoughts? Please share.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've run into it once. I casted just outside of Tuluk, and got a weird echo, thought it was some sort of skill failure.

Then I walked into Morins and had a bunch of soldiers subdue me and... Just hold me there. Heh.

I don't really like it. It's bullshit to me that there's some sort of "auto" magick detection system. It's basically taking the shitty parts of crim-code and running with them. Get rid of it, it doesn't add fuck-all to the game.

[Beethoven]

I've encountered it and I strongly dislike it.

[wizturbo]

I'm not a fan.  My biggest gripes about the system is that it's very inconsistent, and doesn't reinforce a fear of magick users.

It's inconsistent because very magickal things can happen in the city, like someone walking through the gates with skin made of stone, or animated corpses walking through the streets and there is no response.  Have a ball of fire following you while you walk down caravan's road?  No problem, welcome to Allanak!  This is because the code reacts to casting magick, not the presence of magick.  If you have skin of stone and try and pass through the gates, you should be arrested.  Doesn't matter if you cast it or not.  If someone put a grenade in someone's backpack and they tried to walk into an airport, they'd be arrested, it doesn't matter if they put the grenade there or not.   It's clearly code that's there to prevent player abuse, not actually reinforce the setting.  I hate things like that, Armageddon is supposed to be my sanctuary from mechanics that break immersion like so many other games.

I don't see how these magickal protections help reinforce a fear and distrust of magick users.  It's hard to ask players to roleplay a fear of magick, when they've never been negatively affected by magick, nor has anyone they know, because there are powerful and unstoppable magickal protections in place that prevent those things from happening.  It's hard to be scared of the dark when the entire city has a night light.  

And then there's the secrecy of the whole thing.  Rather than explicitly detail what magickal protections are in place, they were implemented and then left as "Find out IC".  For many players, playing an elementalist or sorcerer is a special application.  The idea of potentially throwing away that special role to test these magickal defenses and try and understand how they work probably doesn't appeal to most players, I know it certainly doesn't appeal to me and I don't have to special app for these roles.   I was playing a rogue magicker at the time these protections were released, and it neutered my character...  Not because the code stopped them from doing things, but because I suddenly had no idea what I could or could not do.  I ended up getting a Gem, and my rogue magicker concept was tossed into the dustbin.  Maybe that was the intention of these changes though?  Make playing rogue magickers less appealing?  If so, it worked marvelously well.

[RogueGunslinger]

Get rid of it, it doesn't add fuck-all to the game.

But get rid of Nil reach as well.

[wizturbo]

Get rid of it, it doesn't add fuck-all to the game.

But get rid of Nil reach as well.

+1

Nil should no longer be a starting reach for any elementalist.  I'm not a fan of removing more magickal things from the game entirely, but it should be something you have to acquire.

Many of these magickal protections would not be necessary if the added risk or inconvenience of having to use 'un' for all your spells was in place.

I also like the idea of elementalists having difficulty controlling their magicks, it's something that should set them apart from sorcery, making them more or less dangerous depending on your perspective.

[Incognito]

Nil reach is required.

Especially for those players who're playing magickers for the first time, and need to figure out spell combinations on their own. It might seem useless or redundant for players who've played magickers in the past and know the words to various spells.

Experimenting with Un all the time, is cumbersome, dangerous and liable to get a PC into trouble, depending on their location and also depending on the spell being cast.

[RogueGunslinger]

You lost me. What does finding the right words have to do with un or nil?

It doesn't seem useless or redundant. It seems like easy-mode...

Maybe Nil reach should come with the Gem?

[Incognito]

You lost me. What does finding the right words have to do with un or nil?

1) Nil uses less mana than Un.
2) Nil can be used to figure out spell word combos without casting the spell with a "real effect".

But lets please get back on topic, we can discuss the worth of Nil in another topic!

[wizturbo]

Experimenting with Un all the time, is cumbersome, dangerous and liable to get a PC into trouble, depending on their location and also depending on the spell being cast.

All of these things you just listed seem like reasons for Nil being less widely available, not arguments against it.

[MeTekillot]

A Suk-Krathi who fences in a chalton until he can get his 'un' spells to work on it because he can't practice with 'nil' anymore, heheh.

[RogueGunslinger]

Here's a thread for nil/un: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50797.msg933239.html#new

[FantasyWriter]

I play lots of magickers.  I seldom, if ever use nil reach out of principle, and probably most of my PCs have -never- used nil, and I've played all flavors before, so it is definitely not required.
I remember one good IC argument for nil and that was a preserver not wanting to use niliazi magicks "out loud" but wanting to explore their potential in case of SHTF emergencies.

Lack of 'nil' is not game breaking in any way, simply an OOC inconvenience to those who prefer the easy road.
A krathi/elkran should not be able to survive inside the magickers quarter or their hidden apartment for a few IG years, then walk out and Hiroshima a three block radius without ever having really experienced true magick.

I would like to see a code that would allow nil to branch from un at the same rate as a normal mundane skill if not even the same rate as a weapons skill, and THEN maybe have something else branch from nil.  This would give magicker players a long term goal to pursue since they normally hit the coded glass ceiling much earlier than combat PCs.  It would also slow the rated of magicker growth overally which isn't really bad for anyone.

A magicker out in the wild using their magick to survive -should- be stronger than someone who never left the city.
RL example: A mountain man will always be better at survival than someone who has spent all their life reading survival books and watching survival videos on YouTube.

[FantasyWriter]

Oops, was already posting...

[wizturbo]

The topics are related.

Take away nil, ease off some of the new magickal protections (there were plenty of old ones in place before that seemed good).  Those two things should help balance things out and add more grit to magick.

[Pale Horse]

Edit: Nothing to see here.

[Molten Heart]

Getting rid of the nil reach doesn't seem like a well thought out idea. What about spells that have bad or undesirable effects, or are combat spells to be used against enemies? The heat of battle seems like a bad time to practice. One would want to be well practiced when the time comes to apply certain spells to a real task.

[Patuk]

I happened to have a character die a day after the protection change went in, so I went and made a magicker at that point to test them out. Wasn't much of a fan back then, still not too impressed by it right now.

[BadSkeelz]

I have to agree. There's a disappointing lack of lightning bolts and explosions in the current auto-defense code.

[Jingo]

I actually don't know what they look like in Allanak currently. But in Tuluk they were a plate of bullshit and chips. It seemed like it was specifically designed to replace the previous bullshit and chips system *COUGH* Lirathans *COUGH*.

No, I don't understand the need for these protections. Getting auto-crimmed for casting where someone can see you is good enough. Any further uncovering of magickers should involve detective work from the players.

[Warsong]

Getting rid of the nil reach doesn't seem like a well thought out idea. What about spells that have bad or undesirable effects, or are combat spells to be used against enemies? The heat of battle seems like a bad time to practice. One would want to be well practiced when the time comes to apply certain spells to a real task.

Well, you can't practice assassination by thrusting your dagger through the air and making stabbing sounds with your mouth.

[Lizzie]

I have no idea what the auto-defense system is. I don't think I really need to learn about it here either - whatever it is, it hasn't affected me - ever. So I'd have to say - it doesn't matter if it stays the same or reverts to something it used to be.

[roughneck]

I think it makes sense and I don't feel like it's affected me much.

But I also think it's made the game very slightly more boring in that there's very slightly less opportunity for villains to villainous things.

[Jingo]

Like I said, I really don't know what it looks like in Allanak at the moment. If it's half as bad at the Tuluk system, I don't think I could ever bring myself to play a mage again.

[Molten Heart]

Getting rid of the nil reach doesn't seem like a well thought out idea. What about spells that have bad or undesirable effects, or are combat spells to be used against enemies? The heat of battle seems like a bad time to practice. One would want to be well practiced when the time comes to apply certain spells to a real task.

Well, you can't practice assassination by thrusting your dagger through the air and making stabbing sounds with your mouth.

People do.

[Inks]

I actually don't know what they look like in Allanak currently. But in Tuluk they were a plate of bullshit and chips. It seemed like it was specifically designed to replace the previous bullshit and chips system *COUGH* Lirathans *COUGH*.

No, I don't understand the need for these protections. Getting auto-crimmed for casting where someone can see you is good enough. Any further uncovering of magickers should involve detective work from the players.

Yes. And also reduce response soldiers from giants to humans pls.

[Majikal]

In Tuluk I got railed by this when I was deep underground and barriered. It seemed like overkill when it blasted out my info to Tuluk and got me crimflagged. It's just an unbeatable wall of 'gotcha'. The idea of magickal defense for a city makes perfect ic sense, however I dislike the lack of holes in it.

I also found it's treatment of spells to feel oddly inconsistent. Mixed feelings I suppose, love/hate.

[Suhuy]

One of my biggest, long standing issues with the game has always been the willy nilly changing of how the code functions without any IC explanation to it. Suddenly nil doesn't work and we're supposed to pretend that this is how the world has always been, when in fact it's been the opposite for IC centuries?

I'd rather something as big a change as the sudden removal of nil reach be explained with an IC storyline to go along with it. It's great to implement changes that better reflect the way the game world should function, but not if you sacrifice realism or completely disregard of IC history.

[flurry]

I found it awkward when the change happened, in part because I wasn't sure (okay, I'm still not sure) what magickers, especially gemmed ones, were meant to understand about the protections in the first place. I don't think it was intended as a retcon, but I also don't think there was anything like an IC announcement. Maybe I'm misremembering, though.

As a player, it's hard to know if something is working properly if I don't understand the rationale behind it. After playing under the changes for a while, I had some sense of how this worked, and maybe some sense of why. I also ran into one spell that seemed to be buggy, but evidently is not. In that specific case, I think that spell was substantially handicapped by the change, but other than that, I didn't see anything unexpected.

[Jingo]

One of my biggest, long standing issues with the game has always been the willy nilly changing of how the code functions without any IC explanation to it. Suddenly nil doesn't work and we're supposed to pretend that this is how the world has always been, when in fact it's been the opposite for IC centuries?

I'd rather something as big a change as the sudden removal of nil reach be explained with an IC storyline to go along with it. It's great to implement changes that better reflect the way the game world should function, but not if you sacrifice realism or completely disregard of IC history.

I don't need an ig justification every time staff change the mechanics of the game. That's just a way to give staff more work and get less done in the meantime.

I just want those mechanic changes to be sensible enough to allow and interesting role play and player-to-player interaction. I also want these changes to be well documented and well understood UNLIKE the way these magical protections were implemented.

Who the hell thought that trial and error would be a good mechanic here? Seriously.

[Jingo]

And finally why do we want hidden magickers to be basically unplayable? Why are we moving this way? It's the rogue mages that spamcast in caves that will become the terrors of the land. Not the ones living normal lives in the city. Do we actually want mages to go spamcast in caves? Is that a thing that we're trying to encourage?

I feel like nobody has given the requisite thought needed.

[Incognito]

Without going into too much IC detail, for those who've experimented, or had the misfortune of being detected; as things stand - the auto-magickal defenses combined with the restrictions on certain movement/manipulation spells - makes it impossible for mages to do "bad things(tm)" inside cities.

Just feels like a very sanitized version of Arm 

Some Staff views will be welcome at this stage, just to review if/how the change has affected/helped the game.

[Delirium]

OT: I hate it, and I think it was a mistake. Omnipotence might make sense IC  but it is a horrible gameplay decision.

By trying to force renegades and rogues into extreme isolation and refusing to give them a support structure you're dooming the game to stagnancy and an almost complete lack of PC-based antagonism. Not to mention the cities now feel ridiculously, stupidly safe from outside influences. They shouldn't be.

Just put a VERY simple check/balance on the two "gotcha" spells that cause them to be far too powerful since the addition of keyword targeting:
the spells in question only work if you have "nosave magic" on.

You can easily come up with IC justification for it working like that, too.

Then they turn into powerful utility skills but they are no longer a freepass assassination for anyone with patience and enough karma.

That way renegades actually have to be hunted down, and the auto-defense systems for the cities become largely irrelevant.

[dravage]

Being relatively new around here, how likely is it on topics like this that the staff tend to revert on sweeping changes of this kind? As someone looking in, that hasn't experienced this, or played a magicker, it seems like a pretty serious problem with some widespread gameplay issues. What are the chances we could see these things changed for the better?

[Pale Horse]

Being relatively new around here, how likely is it on topics like this that the staff tend to revert on sweeping changes of this kind? As someone looking in, that hasn't experienced this, or played a magicker, it seems like a pretty serious problem with some widespread gameplay issues. What are the chances we could see these things changed for the better?

Based on what Staff have mentioned in the past, topics and decisions of particular interest to the player-base often have a corrollary thread created on the Imm. discussion forum for the administration to hash out their views, opinions and discussions.

Whether or not this leads to change is an "up in the air" sort of thing.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd say the chances of it suddenly going away are slim.  I'm sure it was something they discussed plenty before implementing it. The idea of them going back on something they already discussed and agreed on seems unlikely.

[Jingo]

I'd say the chances of it suddenly going away are slim.  I'm sure it was something they discussed plenty before implementing it. The idea of them going back on something they already discussed and agreed on seems unlikely.

I actually feel like this is what didn't happen. Like someone thought this was a cool idea and then threw it into the game without consideration for the impact it has.

[Jingo]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47647.0.html

This is the thread following the announcement.

Looking at it, I'm less and less impressed with how much knowledge was kept from the players here. I would even go so far as to say this is one the nails in the coffin of Tuluk.

[Patuk]

Being relatively new around here, how likely is it on topics like this that the staff tend to revert on sweeping changes of this kind? As someone looking in, that hasn't experienced this, or played a magicker, it seems like a pretty serious problem with some widespread gameplay issues. What are the chances we could see these things changed for the better?

The chances are there, they just unfortunately take a while.

[Incognito]

The chances are there, they just unfortunately take a while.

This "feature" went in, in June 2014.

Staff and players alike have had more than enough time to experiment and review the effectiveness and usefulness and detriments.

Could Staff consider a Staff-Player conference (with a group of players who they think have the experience about this "feature" as well as changes to certain spells) to discuss changes/tweaks?

[Patuk]

Two years may seem like a long time, but it took way longer than that for brew to get something of a fix, for example. Extended subguilds have been around for five years, whilst CGP might be almost maybe perhaps coming around by now, and adding a room or two to Allanak with some elves insides to add an elf tribe takes so long I keep pretending celves don't exist around here.

So sure, it may get changed, maybe. Eventually.

[Pale Horse]

Two years may seem like a long time, but it took way longer than that for brew to get something of a fix, for example. Extended subguilds have been around for five years, whilst CGP might be almost maybe perhaps coming around by now, and adding a room or two to Allanak with some elves insides to add an elf tribe takes so long I keep pretending celves don't exist around here.

So sure, it may get changed, maybe. Eventually.

...has it really been that long? 

I still keep thinking of them as these "new-fangled-things."

[Incognito]

Two years may seem like a long time, but it took way longer than that for brew to get something of a fix, for example. Extended subguilds have been around for five years, whilst CGP might be almost maybe perhaps coming around by now, and adding a room or two to Allanak with some elves insides to add an elf tribe takes so long I keep pretending celves don't exist around here.

So sure, it may get changed, maybe. Eventually.

If you're ever in a quandary about time taken for any sort of decision on Arm, follow these guidelines

Think of players as humans or dwarves from LoTR**

Think of Storytellers as elves from LoTR.

Then think of Administrators and Producers as Ents.

Then you'll be able to figure out relative time-frames of:
a) How fast a player will reach a conclusion.
b) How long it *might* take Storytellers to reach a decision about IC events.
c) How long it *might* take Administrators and Producers to reach a decision about Worldwide/Gamewide decisions.

**Unless you're Gandalf - then all bets are off!

[RogueGunslinger]

Ung, that post so quotable, by too long for a sig. So I'm just going to quote it.

If you're ever in a quandary about time taken for any sort of decision on Arm, follow these guidelines

Think of players as humans or dwarves from LoTR**

Think of Storytellers as an elves from LoTR.

Then think of Administrators and Producers as Ents.

Then you'll be able to figure out relative time-frames of:
a) How fast a player will reach a conclusion.
b) How long it *might* take Storytellers to reach a decision about IC events.
c) How long it *might* take Administrators and Producers to reach a decision about Worldwide/Gamewide decisions.

**Unless you're Gandalf - then all bets are off!

[wizturbo]

This is the best analogy ever.

[Little Buddy]

You must understand, young playerbase. It takes a very long time to say anything in Old Staffish. And we never say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say.

[Kryos]

I have disliked criminal code and magical instant death code from the beginning.  Thankfully criminal code got some changes that I feel were for the better over time, but could perhaps use one final push.  Magical instant code is a bit trickier but I'd be for a repeal and reevaluation over letting it lay as is.

However, there's a problem one's staring at.  For those who do not pursue combat effective characters, some degree of protection and assurance is required, lest all the game devolve into the 'rinth.  As it is though, Allanak is the Fortress of Solitude, an no ill will is permitted to be leveled against those who inhabit it unless invited and specially sanctioned.  That's probably too far in the protection direction.

[Suhuy]

I don't need an ig justification every time staff change the mechanics of the game. That's just a way to give staff more work and get less done in the meantime.

Certainly not every time, agreed. But in instances like this, there are some players whose characters are literate and may take the time to document how magick functions. Removing nil or implementing other pretty big changes like this (without an IC explanation) would invalidate their efforts. It may sound like it gives staff more work to you, but I think the telling of stories is the sort of work we should be embracing and frankly, if I were on staff, I would enjoy the effort involved in creating a backdrop to explain a change in the magick code probably more than creating the change in the code itself.

[Jingo]

Consider that we're playing a game in which any work can be invalidated by the whims of another player. I don't think it's a problem.

[Suhuy]

Well if instant gratification is more appealing to you than telling a story, that's your preference. Personally, I've enjoyed the occasions in game history where a change was supported by the backdrop of an IC event or story.

But that's just me.

[Delirium]

The original change didn't have a story behind it, it was just plunked in.

"Oh yeah, it's always been this way, even though you guys have lots of stories of things that have happened that directly contradict that very idea."

So in this case I'm okay with rolling it back without a word. It was a mistake that stifles stories more than supports them.

[LauraMars]

Not a big fan of the magical defense stuff, myself.  Seems like it was a case of punishing the many for the actions of a few.  I feel there's a middle ground somewhere for city-based magic defense but this change rolled right past it into "overkill" territory.

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder if it's had a effect on the longevity rate of sponsored roles as well, and the negatives that can come with that. Allanak certainly seems a lot more safe than I remember it being as a newbie, pre-defense change.

[Suhuy]

The original change didn't have a story behind it, it was just plunked in.

Ah, we may be discussing different things then. Someone posted earlier in the thread proposing nil be removed from the game. I was saying if it were suddenly taken out just like that, it'd be nice if there was at least an IC explanation to it. I understand the auto defense thing was implemented over night. I understand that that's sometimes the way things work and that not every game change requires a story to support it, but it's still nice when it happens.

My only purpose in this discussion is to suggest it's nice to have a story to back up a change when it's possible. If the stamina of elves was somehow tweaked, or pickpockets were given an additional skill, if the bury command were removed tomorrow, or silt skimmers got an upgrade with new code and commands, I'd be perfectly content for the new code to appear overnight. But if we're talking things like Suk-Krathians suddenly can no longer shoot fireballs (or whatever it is that they do), I'd much favor a story supporting that, even if it's a semi-hidden one, versus simply not having it explained and now we have to pretend that Suk-Krathians could never shoot fireballs (or whatever it is they do).

[SuchDragonWow]

It makes sense for the civilized areas of the Known to have contingencies in place to detect magick.  As a culture, Tuluk seeks to cull it, and Allanak to enslave it.  The problem arises with the criminal code. 

The very existence of psionicists in the game world, and their potential exploitation by the respective governments, would seem to rationalize the "magickally" precise actions of the law enforcement AI, but I would argue that it's too perfect.  There has to be some 'wiggle' room. 

And I'm not talking about a literal room, where you can nil cast between crafting sessions, but at least a decent possibility that your casting of 'create water' was only a whimper in the macrocosm, and your projected image was too faint to be suspicious.

Hell, you could even make the crim code function as a relationship with the power level of a spell, or even the type.

[Dar]

I dislike it considerably as well. I can understand that any karma 2 or higher mage can potentially kill a Templar inside the city, if he does it correctly. And something like that shouldnt happen. But ... the current defense mechanisms is just waaaaaaaay of an overkill. Very Broadsword solution, in my opinion.

[wizturbo]

I dislike it considerably as well. I can understand that any karma 2 or higher mage can potentially kill a Templar inside the city, if he does it correctly.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't have a lot of experience with the automagick defense system myself, but my impression based on what others have said is that it should be more limited. Probably limiting it to magick cast at templars and maybe soldiers within the city would be a good start.

[wizturbo]

It's one of those topics that hard to debate on the GDB, because we cannot say what these protections are.  Some protections have been around for as long as I can remember, some have been around for 5+ years.  And some are new within the last 2 years.  The new ones are the ones I think went too far, and should be relaxed or re-tuned.

[Lizzie]

I've finally figured out what all this bruhaha is all about. How many days since the OP - and I play a LOT of mages, including some of the ones that do the things that this topic is about.

I have never been affected by this defense system. However, I also have never attempted to challenge it ICly. None of my mages have ever tried doing the things to people in the city or while my PC was in the city. Partly because my PCs didn't typically have any reason to do it, and partly due to roleplay decisions on my part.

But now that I kind of get a general idea of the point behind this thread -

I agree with those who say that the change has gone a little too far. I also don't agree with whoever said any karma2 mage can kill a templar if he does it right - as if this is an exception to the rule. Any PC can kill a templar if they do it right, whether they're a karma class or not. It's been done. In fact, most templars have the uncanny ability to get killed without being assassinated at all, with or without magicks involved.

So I don't see that "risk to city" is even significant enough to warrant the system that's currently in place.

In order for it to be an issue, you need a few factors combined:

1. You need PCs who -can- do the things the system is designed to prevent.
2. You need those PCs to have a reason to WANT to do those things.
3. You need their victims to be in location A/B/C at the precise moment when the PC is available and properly equipped to carry it out.
4. You need the PC to not fail at the attempt.

You have to have all 4 criteria in place before a PC can do the things the system is designed to prevent.

This is a very rare occurrence. I'd say - the fact that it COULD happen, previously, made things more exciting for everyone, including the victim. It also made magicks more scary ICly. This was the "mystery freakout" that people claim is missing now from the game, that has supposedly turned the game stagnant (I don't think it's stagnant at all but some people do and I feel this is why, even if they disagree).

The fact that at any moment, your character could be walking along Caravan road, minding their own business, on their way to the Kadian shop to buy a new linen blouse, and BOOM - "magick thing" happens. Or, just as scary and exciting - "magick thing happens" to Amos, your PC's buddy, who's also in the Kadian shop about to give you the sids to you can afford to buy that linen blouse.

Things are exciting in Arm when *bad scary stuff happens.* They're not exciting if it happens constantly - if it happens constantly eventually it gets boring and stagnant and people wish it would just be over with. But when all the moons are in the right position and all the 4 criteria are lined up - it's exciting when it happens. It stirs up plotlines. It creates paranoia. It pits factions against each other. It creates drama and entertainment and involvement of clans and independents both.

So I say LET people try to kill that templar using karma2 magicks, if that's what their character would have reason to do. And, let them succeed or fail however they succeed and fail ICly, and let the consequences also be carried out ICly. If it turns into a manhunt, then awesome. Instant plot. If the character fails critically, awesome, a reminder of the Highlord's justice.

[Rokal]

I've finally figured out what all this bruhaha is all about. How many days since the OP - and I play a LOT of mages, including some of the ones that do the things that this topic is about.

I have never been affected by this defense system. However, I also have never attempted to challenge it ICly. None of my mages have ever tried doing the things to people in the city or while my PC was in the city. Partly because my PCs didn't typically have any reason to do it, and partly due to roleplay decisions on my part.

But now that I kind of get a general idea of the point behind this thread -

I agree with those who say that the change has gone a little too far. I also don't agree with whoever said any karma2 mage can kill a templar if he does it right - as if this is an exception to the rule. Any PC can kill a templar if they do it right, whether they're a karma class or not. It's been done. In fact, most templars have the uncanny ability to get killed without being assassinated at all, with or without magicks involved.

So I don't see that "risk to city" is even significant enough to warrant the system that's currently in place.

In order for it to be an issue, you need a few factors combined:

1. You need PCs who -can- do the things the system is designed to prevent.
2. You need those PCs to have a reason to WANT to do those things.
3. You need their victims to be in location A/B/C at the precise moment when the PC is available and properly equipped to carry it out.
4. You need the PC to not fail at the attempt.

You have to have all 4 criteria in place before a PC can do the things the system is designed to prevent.

This is a very rare occurrence. I'd say - the fact that it COULD happen, previously, made things more exciting for everyone, including the victim. It also made magicks more scary ICly. This was the "mystery freakout" that people claim is missing now from the game, that has supposedly turned the game stagnant (I don't think it's stagnant at all but some people do and I feel this is why, even if they disagree).

The fact that at any moment, your character could be walking along Caravan road, minding their own business, on their way to the Kadian shop to buy a new linen blouse, and BOOM - "magick thing" happens. Or, just as scary and exciting - "magick thing happens" to Amos, your PC's buddy, who's also in the Kadian shop about to give you the sids to you can afford to buy that linen blouse.

Things are exciting in Arm when *bad scary stuff happens.* They're not exciting if it happens constantly - if it happens constantly eventually it gets boring and stagnant and people wish it would just be over with. But when all the moons are in the right position and all the 4 criteria are lined up - it's exciting when it happens. It stirs up plotlines. It creates paranoia. It pits factions against each other. It creates drama and entertainment and involvement of clans and independents both.

So I say LET people try to kill that templar using karma2 magicks, if that's what their character would have reason to do. And, let them succeed or fail however they succeed and fail ICly, and let the consequences also be carried out ICly. If it turns into a manhunt, then awesome. Instant plot. If the character fails critically, awesome, a reminder of the Highlord's justice.

*applauds* Well said. +1

[Incognito]

The fact that at any moment, your character could be walking along Caravan road, minding their own business, on their way to the Kadian shop to buy a new linen blouse, and BOOM - "magick thing" happens. Or, just as scary and exciting - "magick thing happens" to Amos, your PC's buddy, who's also in the Kadian shop about to give you the sids to you can afford to buy that linen blouse.

Things are exciting in Arm when *bad scary stuff happens.* They're not exciting if it happens constantly - if it happens constantly eventually it gets boring and stagnant and people wish it would just be over with. But when all the moons are in the right position and all the 4 criteria are lined up - it's exciting when it happens. It stirs up plotlines. It creates paranoia. It pits factions against each other. It creates drama and entertainment and involvement of clans and independents both.

So I say LET people try to kill that templar using karma2 magicks, if that's what their character would have reason to do. And, let them succeed or fail however they succeed and fail ICly, and let the consequences also be carried out ICly. If it turns into a manhunt, then awesome. Instant plot. If the character fails critically, awesome, a reminder of the Highlord's justice.

This is exactly what I was alluding to!

As things stand - bad stuff(tm) cannot happen to anyone inside Cities - period. Neither can fun stuff(tm) happen inside Cities.

Just makes the game and the world a very sanitised and child-proofed version of Arm.

But I think a lot of players have made their views (one way or another) clear on this subject. I guess the only thing to do is to wait and watch as to what Staff members think about the subject and decide to do (or not) about it.

[Dar]

At the saaaaaaaaaaaaame time. It does give mundanes more to do. If you're a scary gicker and you want to kill a templar. You will either have to come up with a way to get them out of the city, or ... approach a mundane to do it for you. While I myself am NOT a fan of the maigck protection. It does encourage mundane plots more.

[Asmoth]

I have never tried to kill a Templar on any character (Because constant half-giant guards)...

Nor have I tried to cast a spell on them.  If this system does in fact stop you from casting fireballs of doom at the Templar, when you're not gemmed, then I think, yes it's themely because Tek wants to protect his servants, but I don't think it's a "balanced" solution.

Seems more like making Templars have more invulnerability than they already do and I'm not a fan of that, specifically when I want to play a templar in the future, but there is never a role call because these guys don't die.

Other than those few words on the subject, I will say, just as a word of caution, as a guy who's never codely experienced these issues that we are all complaining about, I feel that I have a good idea as to what they are now just from the various conversations.

Might want to back off on the spoilers is my only comment in regards to that.

[wizturbo]

No point in debating details here.   No one here is able to comment on what the protections are, and I'm sure many of you don't even have a good idea on what they are.

That's sort of the problem.  There are spooky protections that will cause you to lose your character if you trigger them, and since no one wants to waste hundreds of hours of their life to test said protections, they choose to not do much of anything that could possibly trigger these spooky and unnamed protections.  

Pretend we did the same thing for crim-code.  There are actions that will get you curb stomped by NPC militia, but we are not going to tell you what those actions are...  Just use your best judgement.  The result would be significantly less crime in the cities.  There already is a very small amount of crime in the cities though.  You know who shows up in jail the most?  Newbies that don't know what crim-code is, or pickpockets who haven't figured out where to train their skills without getting crim-code flagged.  People won't do things that will get their characters in trouble, if they know it'll get them in trouble...  But what's worse is when they dont' even know what will get them in trouble.  Then they just don't do anything, they avoid the zone.

We've built a crim-code system, and now a magickal protection system, that has sanitized the cities and made them ridiculously safe unless you venture into a private room somewhere.  I don't know what the solution is, but I think as long as we can get consensus that the status quo is a problem, we might be able to encourage for staff to revisit the topic.

[Inks]

I agree wholeheartedly with Wizturbo this one time only.

[Large Hero]

I agree wholeheartedly with Wizturbo this one time only.

The binary system of danger in the city is a bummer.

You either get dumpstered by the crimcode/magick defense code, or you act with impunity if you've figured out the cases where you can get around it.

You either kill your target with overwhelming force, or they survive and your PC is as good as dead.

The game would probably be a lot more fun if there was room for small-time muggings and other shenanigans. It's a shame that the only viable criminal act on the streets is "calculated, overwhelming assassination" or "steal maxed to the point of 99.9% success."

[FantasyWriter]

I agree wholeheartedly with Wizturbo this one time only.

The binary system of danger in the city is a bummer.

You either get dumpstered by the crimcode/magick defense code, or you act with impunity if you've figured out the cases where you can get around it.

You either kill your target with overwhelming force, or they survive and your PC is as good as dead.

The game would probably be a lot more fun if there was room for small-time muggings and other shenanigans. It's a shame that the only viable criminal act on the streets is "calculated, overwhelming assassination" or "steal maxed to the point of 99.9% success."

This right here is why I don't play sneakies, and my magickers are 99% rogues.

[Riev]

I will say, that "random muggings" and stuff can and do occur, but the issue is similar to the Raider issue.

Who is going to hold your spamwalking ass up in the middle of the night, attempt to mug you, only to NEVER BE ALLOWED IN A BAR FOR THE REST OF THE PC's LIFE?

Overwhelming force and never getting seen are a near-must because failure may as well be death. PCs don't tolerate skills being used on them without their express permission :3

[hyzhenhok]

The problem is more that PCs with PK power are all too happy to exercise it when given the slightest excuse, including militia and templars. One worthless commoner mugged by another? Better mobilize the first cavalry and conduct a city wide manhunt to execute the wrongdoer.

When in reality, the mugger should probably be able to walk into the Gaj, buy a drink with his stolen coin and drink it while sneering at his victim, and nothing would happen unless the victim had 500 coins to pay a templar.

[Large Hero]

The problem is more that PCs with PK power are all too happy to exercise it when given the slightest excuse, including militia and templars. One worthless commoner mugged by another? Better mobilize the first cavalry and conduct a city wide manhunt to execute the wrongdoer.

When in reality, the mugger should probably be able to walk into the Gaj, buy a drink with his stolen coin and drink it while sneering at his victim, and nothing would happen unless the victim had 500 coins to pay a templar.

I agree. Nothing should happen unless the victim can afford to pay off a Templar.

Unfortunately, 99% of urban PCs have the money (due to how easy it is to get coin) or some sort of desirable influence. Even if you rob a brand new PC, they're going to eventually get those things and many will try to settle the score.

As much responsibility lies with the mugged, to accept that being reasonably mugged (oi, gimme 50 sid) isn't worth calling the Templars, as it lies with the law enforcement PCs to not treat every mugging like an act of war.

Most players whose PCs get mugged will be unable to accept this.

To make up for that, it would help to make appealing code options available to the muggers (more forgiving crimcode, face disguises that actually worked,  etc.

What if, for example, long descriptions were hidden at night on the streets unless some condition were met (watch target for x seconds, etc) that sort of thing.

[Patuk]

Meh, 'sid is overrated insofar Templars are concerned. Most I've seen know to look at status more than at money, which imo is how it should be.

[hyzhenhok]

Nah. The templars aren't the nobility's lapdogs. Generally I would hope templars reserve their PK power for better circumstances than "some high status PC asked me to punish a low status PC." Sure, ICly the templar has the power and authority to act with whatever motivation he likes, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Sadly, disappointment in this area is why I entirely avoid playing around templars these days.

[Patuk]

I never said they'd need to instantly die, I just don't think Armageddon is real life, where status happens to revolve around your bank account more often than not.