Magickal auto-defense system in Cities

[Delirium]

The original change didn't have a story behind it, it was just plunked in.

"Oh yeah, it's always been this way, even though you guys have lots of stories of things that have happened that directly contradict that very idea."

So in this case I'm okay with rolling it back without a word. It was a mistake that stifles stories more than supports them.

[LauraMars]

Not a big fan of the magical defense stuff, myself.  Seems like it was a case of punishing the many for the actions of a few.  I feel there's a middle ground somewhere for city-based magic defense but this change rolled right past it into "overkill" territory.

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder if it's had a effect on the longevity rate of sponsored roles as well, and the negatives that can come with that. Allanak certainly seems a lot more safe than I remember it being as a newbie, pre-defense change.

[Suhuy]

The original change didn't have a story behind it, it was just plunked in.

Ah, we may be discussing different things then. Someone posted earlier in the thread proposing nil be removed from the game. I was saying if it were suddenly taken out just like that, it'd be nice if there was at least an IC explanation to it. I understand the auto defense thing was implemented over night. I understand that that's sometimes the way things work and that not every game change requires a story to support it, but it's still nice when it happens.

My only purpose in this discussion is to suggest it's nice to have a story to back up a change when it's possible. If the stamina of elves was somehow tweaked, or pickpockets were given an additional skill, if the bury command were removed tomorrow, or silt skimmers got an upgrade with new code and commands, I'd be perfectly content for the new code to appear overnight. But if we're talking things like Suk-Krathians suddenly can no longer shoot fireballs (or whatever it is that they do), I'd much favor a story supporting that, even if it's a semi-hidden one, versus simply not having it explained and now we have to pretend that Suk-Krathians could never shoot fireballs (or whatever it is they do).

[SuchDragonWow]

It makes sense for the civilized areas of the Known to have contingencies in place to detect magick.  As a culture, Tuluk seeks to cull it, and Allanak to enslave it.  The problem arises with the criminal code. 

The very existence of psionicists in the game world, and their potential exploitation by the respective governments, would seem to rationalize the "magickally" precise actions of the law enforcement AI, but I would argue that it's too perfect.  There has to be some 'wiggle' room. 

And I'm not talking about a literal room, where you can nil cast between crafting sessions, but at least a decent possibility that your casting of 'create water' was only a whimper in the macrocosm, and your projected image was too faint to be suspicious.

Hell, you could even make the crim code function as a relationship with the power level of a spell, or even the type.

[Dar]

I dislike it considerably as well. I can understand that any karma 2 or higher mage can potentially kill a Templar inside the city, if he does it correctly. And something like that shouldnt happen. But ... the current defense mechanisms is just waaaaaaaay of an overkill. Very Broadsword solution, in my opinion.

[wizturbo]

I dislike it considerably as well. I can understand that any karma 2 or higher mage can potentially kill a Templar inside the city, if he does it correctly.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't have a lot of experience with the automagick defense system myself, but my impression based on what others have said is that it should be more limited. Probably limiting it to magick cast at templars and maybe soldiers within the city would be a good start.

[wizturbo]

It's one of those topics that hard to debate on the GDB, because we cannot say what these protections are.  Some protections have been around for as long as I can remember, some have been around for 5+ years.  And some are new within the last 2 years.  The new ones are the ones I think went too far, and should be relaxed or re-tuned.

[Lizzie]

I've finally figured out what all this bruhaha is all about. How many days since the OP - and I play a LOT of mages, including some of the ones that do the things that this topic is about.

I have never been affected by this defense system. However, I also have never attempted to challenge it ICly. None of my mages have ever tried doing the things to people in the city or while my PC was in the city. Partly because my PCs didn't typically have any reason to do it, and partly due to roleplay decisions on my part.

But now that I kind of get a general idea of the point behind this thread -

I agree with those who say that the change has gone a little too far. I also don't agree with whoever said any karma2 mage can kill a templar if he does it right - as if this is an exception to the rule. Any PC can kill a templar if they do it right, whether they're a karma class or not. It's been done. In fact, most templars have the uncanny ability to get killed without being assassinated at all, with or without magicks involved.

So I don't see that "risk to city" is even significant enough to warrant the system that's currently in place.

In order for it to be an issue, you need a few factors combined:

1. You need PCs who -can- do the things the system is designed to prevent.
2. You need those PCs to have a reason to WANT to do those things.
3. You need their victims to be in location A/B/C at the precise moment when the PC is available and properly equipped to carry it out.
4. You need the PC to not fail at the attempt.

You have to have all 4 criteria in place before a PC can do the things the system is designed to prevent.

This is a very rare occurrence. I'd say - the fact that it COULD happen, previously, made things more exciting for everyone, including the victim. It also made magicks more scary ICly. This was the "mystery freakout" that people claim is missing now from the game, that has supposedly turned the game stagnant (I don't think it's stagnant at all but some people do and I feel this is why, even if they disagree).

The fact that at any moment, your character could be walking along Caravan road, minding their own business, on their way to the Kadian shop to buy a new linen blouse, and BOOM - "magick thing" happens. Or, just as scary and exciting - "magick thing happens" to Amos, your PC's buddy, who's also in the Kadian shop about to give you the sids to you can afford to buy that linen blouse.

Things are exciting in Arm when *bad scary stuff happens.* They're not exciting if it happens constantly - if it happens constantly eventually it gets boring and stagnant and people wish it would just be over with. But when all the moons are in the right position and all the 4 criteria are lined up - it's exciting when it happens. It stirs up plotlines. It creates paranoia. It pits factions against each other. It creates drama and entertainment and involvement of clans and independents both.

So I say LET people try to kill that templar using karma2 magicks, if that's what their character would have reason to do. And, let them succeed or fail however they succeed and fail ICly, and let the consequences also be carried out ICly. If it turns into a manhunt, then awesome. Instant plot. If the character fails critically, awesome, a reminder of the Highlord's justice.

[Rokal]

I've finally figured out what all this bruhaha is all about. How many days since the OP - and I play a LOT of mages, including some of the ones that do the things that this topic is about.

I have never been affected by this defense system. However, I also have never attempted to challenge it ICly. None of my mages have ever tried doing the things to people in the city or while my PC was in the city. Partly because my PCs didn't typically have any reason to do it, and partly due to roleplay decisions on my part.

But now that I kind of get a general idea of the point behind this thread -

I agree with those who say that the change has gone a little too far. I also don't agree with whoever said any karma2 mage can kill a templar if he does it right - as if this is an exception to the rule. Any PC can kill a templar if they do it right, whether they're a karma class or not. It's been done. In fact, most templars have the uncanny ability to get killed without being assassinated at all, with or without magicks involved.

So I don't see that "risk to city" is even significant enough to warrant the system that's currently in place.

In order for it to be an issue, you need a few factors combined:

1. You need PCs who -can- do the things the system is designed to prevent.
2. You need those PCs to have a reason to WANT to do those things.
3. You need their victims to be in location A/B/C at the precise moment when the PC is available and properly equipped to carry it out.
4. You need the PC to not fail at the attempt.

You have to have all 4 criteria in place before a PC can do the things the system is designed to prevent.

This is a very rare occurrence. I'd say - the fact that it COULD happen, previously, made things more exciting for everyone, including the victim. It also made magicks more scary ICly. This was the "mystery freakout" that people claim is missing now from the game, that has supposedly turned the game stagnant (I don't think it's stagnant at all but some people do and I feel this is why, even if they disagree).

The fact that at any moment, your character could be walking along Caravan road, minding their own business, on their way to the Kadian shop to buy a new linen blouse, and BOOM - "magick thing" happens. Or, just as scary and exciting - "magick thing happens" to Amos, your PC's buddy, who's also in the Kadian shop about to give you the sids to you can afford to buy that linen blouse.

Things are exciting in Arm when *bad scary stuff happens.* They're not exciting if it happens constantly - if it happens constantly eventually it gets boring and stagnant and people wish it would just be over with. But when all the moons are in the right position and all the 4 criteria are lined up - it's exciting when it happens. It stirs up plotlines. It creates paranoia. It pits factions against each other. It creates drama and entertainment and involvement of clans and independents both.

So I say LET people try to kill that templar using karma2 magicks, if that's what their character would have reason to do. And, let them succeed or fail however they succeed and fail ICly, and let the consequences also be carried out ICly. If it turns into a manhunt, then awesome. Instant plot. If the character fails critically, awesome, a reminder of the Highlord's justice.

*applauds* Well said. +1

[Incognito]

The fact that at any moment, your character could be walking along Caravan road, minding their own business, on their way to the Kadian shop to buy a new linen blouse, and BOOM - "magick thing" happens. Or, just as scary and exciting - "magick thing happens" to Amos, your PC's buddy, who's also in the Kadian shop about to give you the sids to you can afford to buy that linen blouse.

Things are exciting in Arm when *bad scary stuff happens.* They're not exciting if it happens constantly - if it happens constantly eventually it gets boring and stagnant and people wish it would just be over with. But when all the moons are in the right position and all the 4 criteria are lined up - it's exciting when it happens. It stirs up plotlines. It creates paranoia. It pits factions against each other. It creates drama and entertainment and involvement of clans and independents both.

So I say LET people try to kill that templar using karma2 magicks, if that's what their character would have reason to do. And, let them succeed or fail however they succeed and fail ICly, and let the consequences also be carried out ICly. If it turns into a manhunt, then awesome. Instant plot. If the character fails critically, awesome, a reminder of the Highlord's justice.

This is exactly what I was alluding to!

As things stand - bad stuff(tm) cannot happen to anyone inside Cities - period. Neither can fun stuff(tm) happen inside Cities.

Just makes the game and the world a very sanitised and child-proofed version of Arm.

But I think a lot of players have made their views (one way or another) clear on this subject. I guess the only thing to do is to wait and watch as to what Staff members think about the subject and decide to do (or not) about it.

[Dar]

At the saaaaaaaaaaaaame time. It does give mundanes more to do. If you're a scary gicker and you want to kill a templar. You will either have to come up with a way to get them out of the city, or ... approach a mundane to do it for you. While I myself am NOT a fan of the maigck protection. It does encourage mundane plots more.

[Asmoth]

I have never tried to kill a Templar on any character (Because constant half-giant guards)...

Nor have I tried to cast a spell on them.  If this system does in fact stop you from casting fireballs of doom at the Templar, when you're not gemmed, then I think, yes it's themely because Tek wants to protect his servants, but I don't think it's a "balanced" solution.

Seems more like making Templars have more invulnerability than they already do and I'm not a fan of that, specifically when I want to play a templar in the future, but there is never a role call because these guys don't die.

Other than those few words on the subject, I will say, just as a word of caution, as a guy who's never codely experienced these issues that we are all complaining about, I feel that I have a good idea as to what they are now just from the various conversations.

Might want to back off on the spoilers is my only comment in regards to that.

[wizturbo]

No point in debating details here.   No one here is able to comment on what the protections are, and I'm sure many of you don't even have a good idea on what they are.

That's sort of the problem.  There are spooky protections that will cause you to lose your character if you trigger them, and since no one wants to waste hundreds of hours of their life to test said protections, they choose to not do much of anything that could possibly trigger these spooky and unnamed protections.  

Pretend we did the same thing for crim-code.  There are actions that will get you curb stomped by NPC militia, but we are not going to tell you what those actions are...  Just use your best judgement.  The result would be significantly less crime in the cities.  There already is a very small amount of crime in the cities though.  You know who shows up in jail the most?  Newbies that don't know what crim-code is, or pickpockets who haven't figured out where to train their skills without getting crim-code flagged.  People won't do things that will get their characters in trouble, if they know it'll get them in trouble...  But what's worse is when they dont' even know what will get them in trouble.  Then they just don't do anything, they avoid the zone.

We've built a crim-code system, and now a magickal protection system, that has sanitized the cities and made them ridiculously safe unless you venture into a private room somewhere.  I don't know what the solution is, but I think as long as we can get consensus that the status quo is a problem, we might be able to encourage for staff to revisit the topic.

[Inks]

I agree wholeheartedly with Wizturbo this one time only.

[Large Hero]

I agree wholeheartedly with Wizturbo this one time only.

The binary system of danger in the city is a bummer.

You either get dumpstered by the crimcode/magick defense code, or you act with impunity if you've figured out the cases where you can get around it.

You either kill your target with overwhelming force, or they survive and your PC is as good as dead.

The game would probably be a lot more fun if there was room for small-time muggings and other shenanigans. It's a shame that the only viable criminal act on the streets is "calculated, overwhelming assassination" or "steal maxed to the point of 99.9% success."

[FantasyWriter]

I agree wholeheartedly with Wizturbo this one time only.

The binary system of danger in the city is a bummer.

You either get dumpstered by the crimcode/magick defense code, or you act with impunity if you've figured out the cases where you can get around it.

You either kill your target with overwhelming force, or they survive and your PC is as good as dead.

The game would probably be a lot more fun if there was room for small-time muggings and other shenanigans. It's a shame that the only viable criminal act on the streets is "calculated, overwhelming assassination" or "steal maxed to the point of 99.9% success."

This right here is why I don't play sneakies, and my magickers are 99% rogues.

[Riev]

I will say, that "random muggings" and stuff can and do occur, but the issue is similar to the Raider issue.

Who is going to hold your spamwalking ass up in the middle of the night, attempt to mug you, only to NEVER BE ALLOWED IN A BAR FOR THE REST OF THE PC's LIFE?

Overwhelming force and never getting seen are a near-must because failure may as well be death. PCs don't tolerate skills being used on them without their express permission :3

[hyzhenhok]

The problem is more that PCs with PK power are all too happy to exercise it when given the slightest excuse, including militia and templars. One worthless commoner mugged by another? Better mobilize the first cavalry and conduct a city wide manhunt to execute the wrongdoer.

When in reality, the mugger should probably be able to walk into the Gaj, buy a drink with his stolen coin and drink it while sneering at his victim, and nothing would happen unless the victim had 500 coins to pay a templar.

[Large Hero]

The problem is more that PCs with PK power are all too happy to exercise it when given the slightest excuse, including militia and templars. One worthless commoner mugged by another? Better mobilize the first cavalry and conduct a city wide manhunt to execute the wrongdoer.

When in reality, the mugger should probably be able to walk into the Gaj, buy a drink with his stolen coin and drink it while sneering at his victim, and nothing would happen unless the victim had 500 coins to pay a templar.

I agree. Nothing should happen unless the victim can afford to pay off a Templar.

Unfortunately, 99% of urban PCs have the money (due to how easy it is to get coin) or some sort of desirable influence. Even if you rob a brand new PC, they're going to eventually get those things and many will try to settle the score.

As much responsibility lies with the mugged, to accept that being reasonably mugged (oi, gimme 50 sid) isn't worth calling the Templars, as it lies with the law enforcement PCs to not treat every mugging like an act of war.

Most players whose PCs get mugged will be unable to accept this.

To make up for that, it would help to make appealing code options available to the muggers (more forgiving crimcode, face disguises that actually worked,  etc.

What if, for example, long descriptions were hidden at night on the streets unless some condition were met (watch target for x seconds, etc) that sort of thing.

[Patuk]

Meh, 'sid is overrated insofar Templars are concerned. Most I've seen know to look at status more than at money, which imo is how it should be.

[hyzhenhok]

Nah. The templars aren't the nobility's lapdogs. Generally I would hope templars reserve their PK power for better circumstances than "some high status PC asked me to punish a low status PC." Sure, ICly the templar has the power and authority to act with whatever motivation he likes, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Sadly, disappointment in this area is why I entirely avoid playing around templars these days.

[Patuk]

I never said they'd need to instantly die, I just don't think Armageddon is real life, where status happens to revolve around your bank account more often than not.