Main Guild Discussion

[whitt]

give warriors advanced/master riding & mid-level perception skills, leave rangers alone.

I was under the impression that mid-level perception skills are useful for catching hemotes and not much else.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

start all initial craft skills at journeyman

My grind!!

[Dalmeth]

Merge pickpocket and burglar into rogue, maybe adjust starting levels for assassin skills, give merchants brew from floristry & start all initial craft skills at journeyman, give warriors advanced/master riding & mid-level perception skills, leave rangers alone.

Scatter a few journeyman crafting skills among all guilds that correlate to their primary profession.

Give everyone mid-level climb, give forage food to select subguilds or have it branch from basic forage, and open wilderness quit to anyone with a tent.

Subguilds can cover the rest.

Done.

I like this.  I'd only emphasize that the guilds get resource processing skills.

A good example would be giving warriors tanning and armor repair at a decent/useful level.  Probably a low-level skin, too.  Didn't they change skin to have a better chance of giving certain resources?

In general, I'd like to see every guild capable of performing most services.  I'd also like to see some guilds perform specific services with far greater ease, which is what will make them valuable.

[evilcabbage]

Merge pickpocket and burglar into rogue, maybe adjust starting levels for assassin skills, give merchants brew from floristry & start all initial craft skills at journeyman, give warriors advanced/master riding & mid-level perception skills, leave rangers alone.

Scatter a few journeyman crafting skills among all guilds that correlate to their primary profession.

Give everyone mid-level climb, give forage food to select subguilds or have it branch from basic forage, and open wilderness quit to anyone with a tent.

Subguilds can cover the rest.

Done.

have you ever played a warrior?

they get a decent level skin.
I like this.  I'd only emphasize that the guilds get resource processing skills.

A good example would be giving warriors tanning and armor repair at a decent/useful level.  Probably a low-level skin, too.  Didn't they change skin to have a better chance of giving certain resources?

In general, I'd like to see every guild capable of performing most services.  I'd also like to see some guilds perform specific services with far greater ease, which is what will make them valuable.

[Armaddict]

Let's play Fable.

Give everyone everything, over time.

Yes, this is sarcasm.  But given the number of threads with this exact discussion in the past six months, I find this one completely uninformative and unneeded, so that is my uninformative and unneeded contribution.

Less useless is do not merge pickpocket and burglar because reasons already hashed out in previous threads had in recent months.  You not wanting to play a thief does not make thieves in need of revamping.  Or we need to revamp the magick system to make mages more appealing to play for me.

[Dalmeth]

have you ever played a warrior?

they get a decent level skin.

Years ago.  I haven't since because it was boring.

I never managed to max out that idling skill.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

You not wanting to play a thief does not make thieves in need of revamping.

Yeah, well that's just like... your opinion, man. I do like playing pickpockets, but also they do need revamping. Just because I enjoy a class doesn't mean it can't improve. Otherwise, stfu about warriors.

But don't take my word for it, lets look at some numbers, shall we? Not including psionic skills, here's how I count the skill spread amongst classes:

Warrior - 29 total skills, 8 unique to class, master 19 skills, best in game at 12 things.

Ranger - 31 total skills, 1 unique to class,  master 18 skills, best in game at 13 things.

Assassin - 27 total skills, 0 unique to class, master 9 skills, best in game at 4 things.

Burglar - 22 total skills, 1 unique to class, master 7 things, best in game at 4 things.

Pickpocket - 20 total skills, 0 unique to class, master 7 things, best in game at 3 things.

Let me beat you to it, and agree that yes, my numbers are wrong! Please don't tell me they're wrong; I already know they're wrong. And so are yours! So please feel free to count things up yourself and tell me if the overall trend is wrong.

[flurry]

I don't want to merge pickpocket and burglar.  Vive la différence.

I understand there are problems, or at least a feeling of meh, about each. But I think it's better for the game to have specialists in different areas, rather than some kind of criminal generalist class.

[hyzhenhok]

But don't take my word for it, lets look at some numbers, shall we? Not including psionic skills, here's how I count the skill spread amongst classes:

Warrior - 29 total skills, 8 unique to class, master 19 skills, best in game at 12 things.

Ranger - 31 total skills, 1 unique to class,  master 18 skills, best in game at 13 things.

Assassin - 27 total skills, 0 unique to class, master 9 skills, best in game at 4 things.

Burglar - 22 total skills, 1 unique to class, master 7 things, best in game at 4 things.

Pickpocket - 20 total skills, 0 unique to class, master 7 things, best in game at 3 things.

Let me beat you to it, and agree that yes, my numbers are wrong! Please don't tell me they're wrong; I already know they're wrong. And so are yours! So please feel free to count things up yourself and tell me if the overall trend is wrong.

Given how much their skills overlap, this actually indicates how reasonable the idea of fully merging assassin, burglar and pickpocket into a single DnD-style Rogue would be, compared to the power level of rangers and warriors.

[Dalmeth]

Would be cool if a generalized sneak guild could choose its specialization as certain skills hit cap.  Maybe through a special app?  It's something only the staff would know how to implement.

[RogueGunslinger]

I wonder when we're going to start seeing these.

[Miradus]

I wonder when we're going to start seeing these.

I noticed that they started reporting how much they were enjoying making the changes long before any of you started debating the changes, which sort of told me that they had a plan already.

[Desertman]

Everything is fine how it is.

[nauta]

Necromancy!

Merge pickpocket and burglar into rogue, maybe adjust starting levels for assassin skills, give merchants brew from floristry & start all initial craft skills at journeyman, give warriors advanced/master riding & mid-level perception skills, leave rangers alone.

Scatter a few journeyman crafting skills among all guilds that correlate to their primary profession.

Give everyone mid-level climb, give forage food to select subguilds or have it branch from basic forage, and open wilderness quit to anyone with a tent.

Subguilds can cover the rest.

Done.

A lot already has been said for the Three Guild Idea (Warrior, Ranger, Assassin).  I doubt I can add anything valuable -- and I don't know enough about the skills that the guilds get to do any detail analysis -- but I do think having one guild that mirrors Ranger in pretty much every way (e.g., city scan/hide/sneak/hunt instead of wilderness scan/hide/sneak/hunt) sure would make picking a Guild for a sneaky character a less overwhelming process.

If you wanted to be a pickpocket, you'd just pick Assassin + Pickpocket Subguild.  Burglar: Assassin + Burglar Subguild.

[Reiloth]

Necromancy!

Merge pickpocket and burglar into rogue, maybe adjust starting levels for assassin skills, give merchants brew from floristry & start all initial craft skills at journeyman, give warriors advanced/master riding & mid-level perception skills, leave rangers alone.

Scatter a few journeyman crafting skills among all guilds that correlate to their primary profession.

Give everyone mid-level climb, give forage food to select subguilds or have it branch from basic forage, and open wilderness quit to anyone with a tent.

Subguilds can cover the rest.

Done.

A lot already has been said for the Three Guild Idea (Warrior, Ranger, Assassin).  I doubt I can add anything valuable -- and I don't know enough about the skills that the guilds get to do any detail analysis -- but I do think having one guild that mirrors Ranger in pretty much every way (e.g., city scan/hide/sneak/hunt instead of wilderness scan/hide/sneak/hunt) sure would make picking a Guild for a sneaky character a less overwhelming process.

If you wanted to be a pickpocket, you'd just pick Assassin + Pickpocket Subguild.  Burglar: Assassin + Burglar Subguild.

Further it'd be cool to have assassin specialize either in close combat, or ranged combat.

[Jihelu]

I don't like the idea of assassin being either: Melee or ranged.
If you wanted to be a ranged assasin just go ranger with city subguild to sneak around and bang you win.

[Dresan]

My understanding is that the main guild changes were supposed to be small buffs and changes. That why i suggested the ideas below, except for burglar/pickpocket .  However, considering the changes to magick guilds and the length of time its taken for guild changes, I'm wondering if that isn't the case anymore.

I still like all the changes I suggested below for every guild, except perhaps for assassin. I still think they should loose sap (making it unique to combined burglar/pickpocket) but perhaps they should get more utility like being master of stealth anywhere without needing an extra sub-guild. Or something more 'fun' and 'unique'... something like traps. At the very least, I don't think assassins should only be useful in cities, poison and backstab should be something you can use with any bladed weapon.

Also trample should be removed for everyone except for rangers, and sub-guilds with ride.  

Rangers:

• should lose throw
• weapons should be capped right at advanced.
• Rangers should start with sneak, and branch listen from it, but capped at advanced.

I don't want to say something like throw is a city skill, but I think rangers have enough ranged skills with archery. They can afford to lose this. Weapon skills should be capped slightly lower, but advanced is still pretty damn good and most people don't even reach that. Finally I feel starting with sneak is a nice boon for anyone not starting with a sneak guild. Over all these wouldn't be nerfs most people would even notice.

Warrior:

• Should be able to ride hands-free.
• Should eventually branch direction sense when they branch blindfighting.
• Should start with basic weapons skills at apprentice.

I roll ranger/protector and I think the only thing I'd be missing out on is disarm at best, because if my warrior lives long enough to branch weapon skills then I'm probably having as much fun as I could with the character. Warriors don't need much, they just need a little bit more utility so they have a bit more freedom to select sub-guilds, hands free ride and eventual direction sense are really it so they can be the leaders they are destined to be. Starting at apprentice weapons is just a bonus that I think warriors should have, in the same way other classes start off with plenty in apprentice.

Assassin:

• Should eventually branch slashing and chopping weapons at apprentice, journeyman max.
• bludgeoning weapons to journeyman
• piercing weapons to master but no branching
• Should lose sap
• Should gain master throw, master climb, master watch, and have best eyes in the game.

Assassin should be masters of killing and pretty good at fighting at the end of their career.  GOOD but not  GREAT. Again while you can argue sap is something they develop, I would rather give that as a unique thing to Rogues and improve their overall killing abilities.

Burglar and pickpocket should be merged. Or give pickpocket lock picking and pick making, advanced throw and that's it. Making master sap unique to them would also help them out greatly to make them a unique but strong class

Regional weapon boosts currently mostly benefit warriors and rangers , which is why I feel they should be removed and have warriors weapon skills all begin at apprentice

[Majikal]

Not having guild skills that need branching at all would be a pretty sweet change.

[Jihelu]

Not having guild skills that need branching at all would be a pretty sweet change.

I...
I mean.
I.
I kind of agree actually.
You'd be able to start doing whatever you want faster.
Want to use glaives and shit? Fucking go for it.

[WanderingOoze]

Give us our Bash Door, Its time.

[Jihelu]

Give us our Bash Door, Its time.

"Knock knock"

"Who's there?"

"Warrior"

"Warrior wh-"

*Bash door*

[BadSkeelz]

Give us our Bash Door, Its time.

"Knock knock"

"Who's there?"

"Warrior"

"Warrior wh-"

*Bash door*

This happened to me, except it was a Red Robe.

[Miradus]

I have always liked the model where you pick an archetype and then use points to select skills available to that.

[Clavis]

assassin should get a combat buff, i mean right out of the box, they suck at killing anything. yet they're primary function in game is to, oh wow kill people/pc's... yet without grinding for hours, rl weeks, and months they just blow ass at what they're spose to do.

Ranger  = pretty easy to go out and start doing all their rangery things.
warriors = great for just going to mess shit up on day one. wait they branch weapons whaaaat??? yeah make it branch sooner then master.
assassins = bend over and take it you can't kill anything on day five. rl week or more playing.
burglar = someone that steals primarily, just slapped your assassin around and called him suzy.
pp = see above, only called him pete!

don't even know why I'm typing this, gonna stop now. Continue.

okay so warrior is a solid guild cause lets face it, it's all about being up in your face and smashing you down. Though it's never made sense to me that it doesn't have the ability to repair armor, I thing that imo is a necassity. Also it would be good if it got no hands riding, and a shield skill that lets shields be more then just uber blocking (probably not possible but hate that shields are just uber walls), if it was up to me I'd get rid of the slashing, piercing, chopping, bludgenoing skills all together. put in small blades, medium blades, large blades, axes,, clubs, spears, polearms, whip skills. probably a nightmare to do, but again doesn't make sense that you can learn to use a spear by practicing with daggers. and such like that. (not really voting for it cause yeah that would be a great deal of work.)

Rangers - I honestly don't see where they need to be changed. Though would be nice if other subguilds/origions got food forage. makes no sense joe dirt lived in 'Nak all his life, working in kitchens, tavern, served some highlord, sucked sid from his merchant type family, picks ranger and wham, can now surivive better in the wilderness then Mr./mrs. tribal who lives in a tent, was raised outside of civilization. Maybe spread that love to outdoorsman, grebber (who may have learned through grebbing how to, tribal/tribal origion, hunter, the ones where you are outside more. (not sure which ones get it or don't)

Assassin - see above, also could assassins get the ability to make/use some of the more infamous ninja items? black eggs (uses throw/toss command, blinds creature for eh small amount of time) fake flutes that work, but can be used as a blowdart. give them slashing weapons. Completely remove the words backstab off the skills, and make it assassinate or something. Cause seriously backstab just sounds soooo limiting, and then people are like how do I stab people in the back like thats the only feasible way to assassinate a dude. Make doorways no sneak/hide, make it impossible to hide in an apartment if a fight is going on. Unless it's like some giant apartment, with rafters. Cause from looking at some of those room descriptions theres no way you'd be able to hide in a dinky apartment with people fighting in them. Please give them the ability to use traps, contact poisons would be needed for them, as well as needles. No explosive traps, or very rare ingredients, let them start with apprentice backstab, and sneak. Two of the biggest time consuming grinds, to make your assassin idea feasible. (not really but it would be nice. and hate grinding them) give them a higher lock picking cap. cause honestly mr, highborn ain't gonna be behind an easy door to unlock if someone hires you to go after them. (Not like they would, highborns are so untouchable). theres alot more potential to this guild then is obvious, they just seem to be completely window dressing, then people that can slip in murder you next to your fme/mme and back out again. give them some crafting skills that make sense to it. maybe armor repair, weapons crafting select clubs, knives, give em brew to start, and maybe toss in bandage skill (if they don't) cause yeah it makes sense. they know or should know the workings of the human body enough to be able to patch it up.

other guilds - never really play them so can't chip in anything other then they'll usually beat an assassins ass one day one with no problem. and that just seems again wrong to me. Well except for merchants... let merchants have weapon skills capped at apprentice, so they can at least stand up to a newborn babe.

[Armaddict]

Still adamant against the combination of pp, burglar, and assassin.  The combination of those guilds put together is staggeringly out of whack.  The moment my assassin can also manipulate your inventory without fear and break through every door and never fail climb checks is a very bad moment for the game, in my opinion.

All that we really gain out of it is people feeling more powerful as those characters and more burglars and pickpockets being played.  None of those are particularly good things.

I'm not against tweaking of them on their own.  But making them all one is the creation of the class called 'nightmare'.