Main Guild Discussion

[Armaddict]

I'm not asking for anything mind-shatteringly difficult here.

I'm wondering why one of the most basic of skills that had a bunch of functionality added to it over the course of a decade was just suddenly made more rare or inaccessible without so much as a peep.  I'm wondering why the even middling or -novice- ability to run away just became harder to get than the ability to ride a beetle out in the desert, or the ability to stab someone in the eye with precision, or the ability to pick someone's pocket without noticing.  How did this just become this rare?  What was the reasoning?  This was a conscious decision to remove it from several subguilds.

In the case that what Dar said is true, that would make more sense.  But then I wouldn't understand why it was branching.  Unless it was 'popped' instead, like Ride.  In which case...no announcement?!

[Armaddict]

...that wouldn't make any sense.  Flee self is for when you're not in combat, in which case the bonuses to flee matter very little.

That would be like removing parry to make archery more viable.

[RogueGunslinger]

I really would rather less people had the ability to escape than there already is. But I don't mind the idea of everyone getting novice flee except for warrior(master)/ranger(advanced)/assassin(advanced). Then apply a huge penalty to flee if your opponent is mounted and you're not.

No subguild flee. Maybe an advanced subguild with it.

[Dar]

I dont understand. Anyone can flee, whether they have a skill, or not. They're penalized, they get opportunity strikes, they cannot control which way they're fleeing, sure. But it doesnt make them incapable of fleeing combat. Flee as a skill is an ability to escape combat in an organized, safe manner. Which is indeed an acquired skill even IRL. But just fleeing a fight? Anyone can do it. You dont need a skill for it. Where is the problem?

[Armaddict]

Where is the problem?

Let me rephrase this, because I think me arguing the point is detracting from the simplicity of it.  Is there a legitimate, good reason why those combat-middling classes without flee should not be able to pick up flee, as a skill?  Because at some point, it was decided that such was a bad thing, or we wouldn't have done it, yet in so doing, it appears to be only to the detriment of those without flee that are already, for the most part noticeably weaker in combat and more likely to need it?

Your mention of the organized retreat was not unnoticed, but such was already addressed in one of my own previous posts:

If it's to restrict the 'tactical retreat', then limit it in skill level.  Make it so that only warriors can reliably determine their direction (advanced).  Make it possible, but less reliable for rangers(low journeyman).  Make the others able to know where they run to, but not able to reliably choose the direction, and occasionally get thwacked(apprentice/novice).  But having this many main guilds, by default, entirely susceptible to -running away- being their biggest mistake, with very few subguild options to counter that (if any, anymore?), is an overcorrection to something that I'm not sure even needed fixing.

So prior, it was possible to use subguilds to get what translates into a skill that doesn't give you absolute control of the flee scenario, but it does help start reduce that chance of 'Panic!  You couldn't escape!' filling up your screen, and it does make it so that people aren't blind and unable to tell what direction they're going because they decided to pull out of a fight.  That option is now, seemingly, entirely gone, which makes it reliably easier for someone to make sure to get the 'kill' command off and do a lot more damage than just that primary attack.  That further accentuates the combat disparity (hence why I'm not sure that needed fixing, from the quote above; the disparity was already sizeable) for the classes that are not helpless in combat, but have been far more likely to have been running away a lot through their previous experience (assuming by class trope).  Thieves, burglars, and assassins are now unerringly -bad- at getting away from someone trying to hack them up?  It's a very odd thing to be changed into when flee at its current state is more necessary to survival than it used to be, and doesn't seem like something that should be utterly and hopelessly beyond reach of people that are still capable of and involved in combat.

[Majikal]

You're relating the lack of the flee skill to the inability to flee. This is not the case.

[nauta]

You're relating the lack of flee to the inability to flee. This is not the case.

'Conflating', not 'relating'.  (Nerd smiley face.)

I've been tracking this topic from the sidelines and I agree there's some confusion -- to me at least -- owing to the conflation -- and maybe it'd help to distinguish two questions.

Now, first though, it's a fact (AFAIK) that everyone can type 'flee' and actually flee from combat (with better chance of success if you have the 'flee' skill.)  

1. Is the concern that the skill-less use of 'flee' isn't powerful enough? (My own limited experience with characters without the 'flee' skill suggests it is powerful enough -- I successfully flee now and then, although this is limited experience.)

2. Is the concern, rather, that although skill-less flee is fine, more Guilds (and/or Subguilds) should all the same get skilled flee?

I also think this probably should go into its own thread, e.g., 'On the Flee Skill'.

[Armaddict]

You're relating the lack of the flee skill to the inability to flee. This is not the case.

No, I'm not.

I've said several times now that I'm talking about the detrimental effects that are more common in fleeing without the skill, i.e. More failures to escape the room, increased chance of punishment for attempting to flee, and inability to see where you're going while fleeing.  The last bit has been in place for a long time now, but only recently became a larger issue since the act of fleeing can put you at lower hit points than before, making the several seconds of 'Where am I now?' more prone to causing your death.  Saying that not having the flee skill results in complete inability to flee hasn't been said, only that lack of flee skill results in complete ineptitude while fleeing and the increased risk of failure.  Which leads into, once again...

1. Is the concern that the skill-less use of 'flee' isn't powerful enough? (My own limited experience with characters without the 'flee' skill suggests it is powerful enough -- I successfully flee now and then, although this is limited experience.)

2. Is the concern, rather, that although skill-less flee is fine, more Guilds (and/or Subguilds) should all the same get skilled flee?

It is akin to the latter.  It is, rather...why are we giving flee such increased functionality to the point that it is a true survival skill, then suddenly making access to it the same as if it were a magickal skill?  We used subguilds to grant the ability to mesh with pretty much every skill in the game...but then -removed- access to flee for main guilds without it.  Completely.  We made it exclusive to certain main guilds, despite other main guilds having every reason in the world to be able to maintain their head while running away.  Sooo, again...the reason why it's in this thread is because I said if we're removing the ability to make the choice to have even a novice/apprentice flee on a character, then more main guilds should have access to novice/apprentice flee.

It is not a magickal skill.  It is not archaic knowledge.  It is not a skill that apprentice level guarantees anything, nor gives the same 'ordered retreat' function that warriors get it to.  Thus, there is no real reason to restrict those main guilds who don't get it by default from ever having it.

[Desertman]

I want to see:

"You try to flee but slip and fall!"

flee

"You have to stand up first!"

[Yam]

flee

You slip and land on your neck!

A long, slippery roofsnake has arrived from the up.

Welcome to Armageddon!

[Desertman]

flee

You slip and land on your neck!

A long, slippery roofsnake has arrived from the up.

Welcome to Armageddon!

I once lost a very long-lived character because instead of typing "Flee"...I typed "Flee S", and entered it about fifteen times.....I was fleeing face first into a wall repeatedly and of course that doesn't work haha. The irony is that if my Flee skill hadn't been so high, I would have randomly fleed in another direction likely...but instead I "successfully" fled south every single time. My HIGH flee skill....kept me from fleeing.

It was late at night and I was very sleepy and actually on my way to logout very soon when I was attacked.

It was a perfect storm.

I had been attacked by SO MANY staff animated monsters, NPCs, and "things" during my time on this PC, easily hundreds, that when I saw I couldn't flee, I just said to myself, "Well, it's another staff animation, I can't codedly flee for some reason...alright...I guess I'm supposed to die here.". I just made the assumption I was codedly not being allowed to flee because I was supposed to die in that situation, and more or less just calmly resigned myself to said death.

(I had also recently squashed another group, twice, and had staff animate some high-end people to punish me and send the message it wasn't appreciated. I assumed this was additional "punishment" for squashing said staff directive/direction.)

Come to find out I was just sleepy, and stupid, and was trying to flee my face right into a wall repeatedly, and the code was letting me heh.

I sent a message to staff basically asking, "Umm, did you guys just kill me? I can see why you would and how it would be an appropriate world response, but I basically just want to know.".

The response I got was, "Here is the log...you were fleeing into a wall...."

*FACE FUCKING PALM*

Kind of funny now that I look back on it.

Having the Flee Skill basically killed me, whereas if I had a low flee skill, or no flee skill, I likely would have fled instead in a random direction and probably lived.

[Armaddict]

...so the gist of your story is, more classes should be restricted from flee or else you'll end up fleeing into walls?

Edit:  Again, so that maybe someone will actually address it rather than deflect it...why should flee be -impossible- for anyone to have unless they are one of two or possibly three mainguilds?  (Or, if this is false, why was there just no telling about the changes to flee, which is again, one of the most basic survival commands of the game that anyone involved in combat will depend on at least once?)

[Jihelu]

Give every class like high apprentice flee potential and there ya go.

[Desertman]

...so the gist of your story is, more classes should be restricted from flee or else you'll end up fleeing into walls?

Edit:  Again, so that maybe someone will actually address it rather than deflect it...why should flee be -impossible- for anyone to have unless they are one of two or possibly three mainguilds?  (Or, if this is false, why was there just no telling about the changes to flee, which is again, one of the most basic survival commands of the game that anyone involved in combat will depend on at least once?)

Oh no, that's not what I was saying.

I just thought I would post a funny little story loosely related to the topic about how having flee actually killed me once, which is ironic.

I wasn't making an argument for either side.


To address your main point, I think ANYONE should be able to learn at least low-level flee, just like pilot etc.

[nauta]

Edit:  Again, so that maybe someone will actually address it rather than deflect it...why should flee be -impossible- for anyone to have unless they are one of two or possibly three mainguilds?  (Or, if this is false, why was there just no telling about the changes to flee, which is again, one of the most basic survival commands of the game that anyone involved in combat will depend on at least once?)

I could be wrong, but this is from starting in early 2014: four of the main guilds I selected had flee -- they were the ones you would suspect should get flee -- and the other one that probably should get flee I haven't picked yet.

So I suspect main guilds where it makes sense to have skilled flee actually do get skilled flee, but then again maybe I'm confused and a subguild gave me flee and not my main guild -- I have limited data to work with here.

ETA: I decided to check, and here's what I found in the help files:

Assassin: "...as well as how to more easily get out of combat."
Burglar: no mention
Merchant: no mention
Pickpocket: "Some small skill with weapons is also a pickpocket's province, as well as how to beat a hasty retreat."
Ranger: "Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons and strategic retreat."
Warrior: "Unarmed combat, expert battle maneuvers such as disarming, the ability to hurl missiles, strategic withdrawal, and the eventual expert use of bows and arrows are all part of a warrior's skills."

So, under the reasonable assumption that the bolded bits suggest the Main Guild gets the 'flee' skill, it looks like 4/6 of the main guilds do get the flee skill.  (And screw booglers: I catch one of 'em in my room, they dead.)

[Armaddict]

Oh no, that's not what I was saying.

I just thought I would post a funny little story loosely related to the topic about how having flee actually killed me once, which is ironic.

I wasn't making an argument for either side.

Eh, I'm in argument mode.  This is what happens when I'm trying to convey what should be a simple point, but am getting responses that are for the most part deflections rather than answers or explanations, which makes me have to reiterate...and reiterate...and then, at a certain point, I just assume everyone is ignoring what's being said to deflect or redirect.

So I suspect main guilds where it makes sense to have skilled flee actually do get skilled flee, but then again maybe I'm confused and a subguild gave me flee and not my main guild -- I have limited data to work with here.

I keep waiting for someone to tell me I'm completely wrong, but the most we've gotten is 'I suspect'.  I was routine picker of thief or thug subguilds, whether or not their skills contributed anything to me, just to pick up the flee skill.  This is purely because I anticipate being the lower skilled combatant in most encounters, and I plan on running away a lot.  Apparently, I'm not allowed to have that plan anymore.  Hence why I keep bringing this up.  I'm not sure what the issue was that said I shouldn't have that option.

[nauta]

@armaddict: check my ETA above.  I think that clarifies things, doesn't it?   4/6 Guilds do get the 'flee' skill, at least if the help files are a guide here (and they do map onto my own experience).  IF TRUE, then this refines the discussion: should Burglar and Merchant receive the 'flee' skill as well?  (No opinion.)

[Talia]

Also: "By practicing their ability to parry, protectors learn how to flee, and can practice it to an advanced level."

...and maybe others, I dunno, I'm not going through all the help files right now. Suffice to say, help files are helpful. And you don't even really need to read into them anymore (like in the old days), they pretty much say straight-up what the major included skills are, details about branching, and so forth.

[Armaddict]

@armaddict: check my ETA above.  I think that clarifies things, doesn't it?   4/6 Guilds do get the 'flee' skill, at least if the help files are a guide here (and they do map onto my own experience).  IF TRUE, then this refines the discussion: should Burglar and Merchant receive the 'flee' skill as well?  (No opinion.)

...interesting, I had read the helpfiles before even posting about it, as well as all the subguild helpfiles of those I used to know had it, and saw nothing.  Apparently I missed it two or three times (or the in game helpfile is different, can't check right now but that seems unlikely[I'm really unsure how I missed it.  Apparently sometimes I read very inefficiently]).  That means the last page on it could have been ignored, and the question posed in the second post or so of '...why should this be branching?' was the relevant question.

Also: "By practicing their ability to parry, protectors learn how to flee, and can practice it to an advanced level."

...and maybe others, I dunno, I'm not going through all the help files right now. Suffice to say, help files are helpful. And you don't even really need to read into them anymore (like in the old days), they pretty much say straight-up what the major included skills are, details about branching, and so forth.

Indeed.  I am satisfied.  A little surprised it took a whole page of me showing off that I missed it in the helpfiles before someone showed me the helpfiles, but satisfied.

[Talia]

Indeed.  I am satisfied.  A little surprised it took a whole page of me showing off that I missed it in the helpfiles before someone showed me the helpfiles, but satisfied.

*thumbs up* It is also surprising to me, somewhat, that the helpfiles are now helpful (Even though I was on staff when that first started happening, they have since become even more helpful.) It seems like there are probably a few ways for you to craft the PC you want to play, and the helpfiles are a good resource.

[Armaddict]

Oh definitely.  But I actually looked at a couple of class helpfiles (burglar was one of them) and just fully missed it in there.  I actually investigated before getting irked, which was my original post about it.  The whole 'This is still irking me'.  Nauta, shame on you for not bringing up your help file helpfulness project stuff sooner! (Edit:  Yes, this is totally me blaming you for me not reading gud.  TAKE THAT.)

[nauta]

Nauta, shame on you for not bringing up your help file helpfulness project stuff sooner! (Edit:  Yes, this is totally me blaming you for me not reading gud.  TAKE THAT.)

Yeah it's like when you get hired to assassin someone and they start having really bad mudsex, and you just sit there and watch them with morbid fascination for way too long before finally typing in:

Code Select Expand


backstab armaddict;
em crawls out from under the bed, knives out;
say (just before the knives drive in) Got room for one more?


[Jihelu]

Nauta, shame on you for not bringing up your help file helpfulness project stuff sooner! (Edit:  Yes, this is totally me blaming you for me not reading gud.  TAKE THAT.)

Yeah it's like when you get hired to assassin someone and they start having really bad mudsex, and you just sit there and watch them with morbid fascination for way too long before finally typing in:

Code Select Expand


backstab armaddict;
em crawls out from under the bed, knives out;
say (just before the knives drive in) Got room for one more?


Remember.
You all consented.
So just, whip it out as well. Might as well.

[Armaddict]

Blood wells up in your mouth as nauta shoves a helpfile up between your ribs!


There's always room for one more.

[Raptor_Dan]

Is there a bonus given to trying to flee when disengaged, as opposed to being fully engaged? I wondering, because if so, that would give sound reason to actively try and avoid combat by turning on nosave combat, and refusing to fight.