Main Guild Discussion

[wizturbo]

I hate the idea of merging burglar and pickpocket.  I like that they're separate now, so you don't have people running around with grandmaster steal, grandmaster sneak/hide and grandmaster pick on the same guild.  I say grandmaster because there is a very very big difference between the ranger "master" stealth and burglar "master" stealth.  One is near invisibility, the other is not without full camo gear.

I'd rather just give pickpockets some buffs, and give burglars some buffs, but keep a distinction between the two core guilds.

I think burglars are in need of some love, as their core skill (pick) is really gimmicky in that its usefulness is mostly centered on breaking into apartments.  Most of the places you'd want to break into are clan controlled and have NPC guards.  I'd like to see that change.  I'd like there to be a)  secret entrances to more places.  b)  some doors without guards, but REALLY good locks that require special master quality tools and proper timing to break into.  The addition of roof tops in Allanak is a pretty great boon for burglars though, and I'm eager to check them out.  Those are fairly substantial changes though...  Other than my suggestion of giving them pickmaking from the start, I'd love for them to get scan, and be pretty damn good at it too (ranger quality scan, but city based).  

[Riev]

I say, along with my warrior argument, that a lot of things between pickpockets and burglars aren't so much skill-based as they are opportunity based.

One, people hate pickpockets MORE THAN A MINDBENDER because a pickpocket can mildly inconvenience you by taking that nice dagger you spend 5minutes foraging salt on. All a mindbender can do is ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD.

I like that they are separate, but "master" level locks aren't even close to common enough to care about it, and whats behind them is usually not worth the grind. The VERY FEW things that other non-mastery classes can't get into, aren't generally a thing you'd be going into without staff getting a warning first.

With pickpockets, they're just viewed as absolute scum. One of my FAVORITE things on my last pickpocket was that he had to steal a Kuraci's spice knife. A very PARTICULAR spice knife, without being noticed. Why not, instead of hating pickpockets, hire them to make your enemies' lives miserable?

The only CODE-robust thing I think the stealth classes need is a disguise ability. No, not more stealth, that shit is OP and I love it to my wee-wee and back. Disguising yourself as another person, SOMEHOW. Be a con man, but don't burn your entire identity because one person knows you're Jim Amos, the guy from the Gaj last night. Sneak into a Noble's estate not because you stole some aides cloak, but because you're DISGUISED to look like one. "Infiltrate" various clans in the world by disguising yourself as a lowly hunter who needs a job, but isn't immediately recognizable as Lady Hardpants' aide because people know sdescs.

[BadSkeelz]

Give pickpockets unlimited description changes.

[whitt]

The only CODE-robust thing I think the stealth classes need is a disguise ability. No, not more stealth, that shit is OP and I love it to my wee-wee and back. Disguising yourself as another person, SOMEHOW. Be a con man, but don't burn your entire identity because one person knows you're Jim Amos, the guy from the Gaj last night. Sneak into a Noble's estate not because you stole some aides cloak, but because you're DISGUISED to look like one. "Infiltrate" various clans in the world by disguising yourself as a lowly hunter who needs a job, but isn't immediately recognizable as Lady Hardpants' aide because people know sdescs.

This would be a cool skill.  Something that would allow you (on success) to acquire a "clanned" flag.  Still up to you to assemble any necessary pieces of identifying gear.  For example Disguise Byn, might grant add the Byn clan to your list of "jobs" for a short duration, but anyone in the compound might notice you don't have a patch or forgot to salute the sergeant or were totally skipping out on whatever duty was supposed to be happening.  Likely a bitch to code for, but a cool concept for a skill.

[wizturbo]

Give pickpockets unlimited description changes.

Would be cool.  Or simple make two versions of "tdesc"  One that goes before your actual description, one that goes after...  You could "Disguise" yourself by modifying your pre-tdsec and post-tdesc...but if someone reads your whole description and notices your real description in there you might be caught.

[Jingo]

Give them a psi intercept skill. *cough*

[shadeoux]

I like the idea of splitting a ranger, ONLY because I would drop ride from my ranger in a heartbeat, IF I was able to pick up some other combat skill instead. The reason I say that, is that I play a race that can't/won't ride, and charge/trample/ride skillset is completely useless. Granted they get some sweet perks for the race, but that extends to all classes of said race.

I would like to see the ability to pick skill sets similar to above, but I would break it down a bit further....

Combat Wilderness Ranger Skillset;
All Non Advanced weapon types
Parry,
Archery,
Make Trap,
Wilderness Trapping. (Would summon a mob after X-time indigenous to the area you are in. If provoked they go into fight or flight mode. (Would need materials to make trap prior and set it.))
Caltrops (Also Assassin Viable) (A trap that can slow, stun or knock out perusing predators. (Must be set prior can not be on the go))
Climb
Hide
Sneak
Scan
Listen

Wilderness Warrior;
All weapon skills
Shield use
Bash
Disarm
Climb
Hide
Sneak
Scan
Listen
(Note no bow, or no trap skill.)

[wizturbo]

This would be a cool skill.  Something that would allow you (on success) to acquire a "clanned" flag.  Still up to you to assemble any necessary pieces of identifying gear.  For example Disguise Byn, might grant add the Byn clan to your list of "jobs" for a short duration, but anyone in the compound might notice you don't have a patch or forgot to salute the sergeant or were totally skipping out on whatever duty was supposed to be happening.  Likely a bitch to code for, but a cool concept for a skill.

The problem with 'clanned' flag is its too binary.  Could you get past a gate guard with a clan uniform?  Maybe, would depend on the guard.  Could you start filling your backpack with clan items in a barracks and walk out without anyone saying anything?  Hell no.

[Tannhäuser]

I hate the idea of merging burglar and pickpocket.  I like that they're separate now, so you don't have people running around with grandmaster steal, grandmaster sneak/hide and grandmaster pick on the same guild.  I say grandmaster because there is a very very big difference between the ranger "master" stealth and burglar "master" stealth.  One is near invisibility, the other is not without full camo gear.

In my humble opinion, having three city guilds is jarring.  Maybe it's because I'm so used to tabletop RPGs.

I would envision one city guild that is swift at killing, very precise at 1v1 combat, even to the level of a Warrior in a fight where they've taken their advantage, but struggles mightily against non-humanoids.  The second guild is a true rogue, someone who possesses the dirty tricks the other guild does not, but can access apartments, find secret passages, alleys and hiding spots (city search),  as well as obtain sensitive materials with quick fingers.  The two would not overlap in skillsets.

I picture much the same for the wilderness the dual wilderness roles.  One is an accomplished explorer and survivalist, with a nose for finding secret locations (wilderness search).  The second guild is a focused hunter, killer, desert ranger.

It's only a thought, though.

[hyzhenhok]

If we want our other guilds to be at ranger power level, you could probably argue for merging all of the stealth guilds. DnD just has the single rogue class, after all.

[wizturbo]

There's more than three "city" guilds already.  Warrior and Merchant are both easily more at home in the city than they are outside it.  The only non-city guild is Ranger, unless of course they choose one of numerous sub-guilds that make them amazing in the city as well.  A pickpocket or burglar is just a sub-guild away from being alright in the wilderness too.  

The issue is you don't want too much concentration of powerful skills in one guild.  While rogues were only one class in D&D, this worked because rogues had to choose skill points to specialize in.  The rogue class couldn't be at master level in everything, they either had to specialize or spread their points around and be jacks of all trades, masters of none.  We don't have code to support skill choices, so the multiple 'rogue-like' guilds were created to simulate this.

An all-in-one Rogue Guild with master levels of all the skills that Pickpocket, Burglar and Assassin currently have to master, along with warrior level weapon skills, would be a monstrously powerful guild, far more powerful than rangers.

[hyzhenhok]

The issue is you don't want too much concentration of powerful skills in one guild.  While rogues were only one class in D&D, this worked because rogues had to choose skill points to specialize in.  The rogue class couldn't be at master level in everything, they either had to specialize or spread their points around and be jacks of all trades, masters of none.  We don't have code to support skill choices, so the multiple 'rogue-like' guilds were created to simulate this.

An all-in-one Rogue Guild with master levels of all the skills that Pickpocket, Burglar and Assassin currently have to master, along with warrior level weapon skills, would be a monstrously powerful guild, far more powerful than rangers.

What on earth are you talking about? What rogue in DnD had to choose between sneak attack, sleight of hand and open lock? Rogues have more skill points than they know what to do with. It's rangers who had to choose a specialty: bow or melee, favored enemy, favored terrain, etc. Guess which guild doesn't have to choose a specialty in Armageddon?

What would make the combination so powerful? How would it be more powerful than rangers are now? Just saying it doesn't make it true. It's nothing you can't accomplish now with extended subguilds, honestly. Getting inside locked doors or stealing small things from people isn't going to make assassins vastly more powerful than they are now, it just means you don't have to play a gimped class if you want to explore the non-combat side of the rogue experience. If you give the new, merged class Pickpocket level combat (rogues don't have full BAB, after all) you'd probably have veteran assassin players come out in droves complaining that it still wasn't as strong as a ranger/slipknife.

[Rokal]

The issue is you don't want too much concentration of powerful skills in one guild.  While rogues were only one class in D&D, this worked because rogues had to choose skill points to specialize in.  The rogue class couldn't be at master level in everything, they either had to specialize or spread their points around and be jacks of all trades, masters of none.  We don't have code to support skill choices, so the multiple 'rogue-like' guilds were created to simulate this.

An all-in-one Rogue Guild with master levels of all the skills that Pickpocket, Burglar and Assassin currently have to master, along with warrior level weapon skills, would be a monstrously powerful guild, far more powerful than rangers.

What on earth are you talking about? What rogue in DnD had to choose between sneak attack, sleight of hand and open lock? Rogues have more skill points than they know what to do with. It's rangers who had to choose a specialty: bow or melee, favored enemy, favored terrain, etc. Guess which guild doesn't have to choose a specialty in Armageddon?

What would make the combination so powerful? How would it be more powerful than rangers are now? Just saying it doesn't make it true. It's nothing you can't accomplish now with extended subguilds, honestly. Getting inside locked doors or stealing small things from people isn't going to make assassins vastly more powerful than they are now, it just means you don't have to play a gimped class if you want to explore the non-combat side of the rogue experience. If you give the new, merged class Pickpocket level combat (rogues don't have full BAB, after all) you'd probably have veteran assassin players come out in droves complaining that it still wasn't as strong as a ranger/slipknife.

To be fair, rogues also balanced out in the fact they had a lower base attack bonus and some other things to balance out their ridiculous amount of versatility, and other weaknesses that other classes did not.

comparing D&D's mechanics to arms is comparing apples to oranges, IMO

[Warsong]

Rangers are so overvalued because they're the only guild that performs well in the desert without the need for specific subguilds. Nobody else can forage food, nobody else can wilderness quit, I don't think any of the other mundane guilds even have direction sense without getting it from a subguild. Riding with hands free requires investment in certain subguilds that give little else. Rangers also mysteriously regenerate stamina 50% faster than all other guilds.

Rangers aren't too good at fighting, and don't need to be split up into two guilds that both suck. It's just that they have too many monopolies on things that are extremely important for wilderness play. Just the idea of trying to play a desert warrior is hugely off-putting to me because I know I won't be able to log out when I wish, and there's really no reason why rangers should be the only ones who can forage food. That one isn't even realistic, it's just a completely arbitrary limitation.

There's too much emphasis on needing to pick the right subguild to enable stuff like wilderness stealth, no-hands riding etc. People who don't know about these things screw up their characters forever if they had any intentions of playing a desert-bound character, and even those who have this largely undocumented knowledge are then limited to a much more narrow selection of subguilds, with considerable opportunity costs involved. This is why ranger is so popular. They get it all for free.

[JackGibbons]

Rangers are so overvalued because they're the only guild that performs well in the desert without the need for specific subguilds. Nobody else can forage food, nobody else can wilderness quit, I don't think any of the other mundane guilds even have direction sense without getting it from a subguild. Riding with hands free requires investment in certain subguilds that give little else. Rangers also mysteriously regenerate stamina 50% faster than all other guilds.

Rangers aren't too good at fighting, and don't need to be split up into two guilds that both suck. It's just that they have too many monopolies on things that are extremely important for wilderness play. Just the idea of trying to play a desert warrior is hugely off-putting to me because I know I won't be able to log out when I wish, and there's really no reason why rangers should be the only ones who can forage food. That one isn't even realistic, it's just a completely arbitrary limitation.

There's too much emphasis on needing to pick the right subguild to enable stuff like wilderness stealth, no-hands riding etc. People who don't know about these things screw up their characters forever if they had any intentions of playing a desert-bound character, and even those who have this largely undocumented knowledge are then limited to a much more narrow selection of subguilds, with considerable opportunity costs involved. This is why ranger is so popular. They get it all for free.

Well, if you want to play extensively in the outdoors, that's why there's a guild for it, right? Warriors have their perks over Rangers as well, but usually need to collaborate with Rangers if they're doing desert stuff. Inside the city, on foot, they really shine.

[burble]

Why not just get rid of warriors?
Assassins are people hunters. Rangers are animal hunters. Warriors are sitting around waiting on a war?
Split their skills between assassin (offensive) and ranger (defensive).

There are no friendly areas outside the city and I've lost chars just stepping outside the city walls for the first time.

The few times I tried an assassin in the rinth it was like candyland compared to the outdoors. Just walk around pick up all the loot on the ground and backstab at will, nobody cared, no npcs got aggressive. The only thing your warrior will die of in a combat clan is boredom from sparring so much. Rangers are the only challenging class to play and I think that's why people play them, not because they are OP. 

[Riev]

Why not just get rid of warriors?
Assassins are people hunters. Rangers are animal hunters. Warriors are sitting around waiting on a war?
Split their skills between assassin (offensive) and ranger (defensive)

And as I've said, numerous times, before:

Warriors are pretty sick at face to face combat, and wartime scenarios. A full blown assassin has to think VERY carefully about attacking even a middling warrior because they might be able to strip your weapons, knock your ass down, and absolutely murder you while you're still recovering from your backstab.

Unfortunately, there aren't many roles for warriors. People don't need PC guards, because the streets are amazingly safe. They don't need guards while salting, even the salts are amazingly safe. The conflict required for PC Warriors to really be necessary is either the same old gith invasion that happens every few years, or OTHER people doing risky behavior that will probably see their investments killed for the sake of a warrior having a purpose.

Make bash and kick skill up quicker that weapon skills. Same with rescue. With a couple IC years of training a warrior should be pretty damned good at getting between people, and controlling the battlefield. With bash, disarm, and guard/rescue a warrior's skill set is superior in combat. Its just that type of combat doesn't occur and, when it does, warriors are often institutionally untrained.

Warriors are Arena fodder, and generally useless otherwise.

[Harmless]

The idea of splitting up rangers or merging pickpockets and burglars makes me sad because of less variety.

This is why tinkering with the main guilds is such a difficult undertaking. Sure, some of the classes need LOVE and BALANCING but I don't think I want a total redo of the entire class structure.

(Edited to remove negativity someone objected to.)

[Synthesis]

Why not just get rid of warriors?
Assassins are people hunters. Rangers are animal hunters. Warriors are sitting around waiting on a war?
Split their skills between assassin (offensive) and ranger (defensive)

And as I've said, numerous times, before:

Warriors are pretty sick at face to face combat, and wartime scenarios. A full blown assassin has to think VERY carefully about attacking even a middling warrior because they might be able to strip your weapons, knock your ass down, and absolutely murder you while you're still recovering from your backstab.

Unfortunately, there aren't many roles for warriors. People don't need PC guards, because the streets are amazingly safe. They don't need guards while salting, even the salts are amazingly safe. The conflict required for PC Warriors to really be necessary is either the same old gith invasion that happens every few years, or OTHER people doing risky behavior that will probably see their investments killed for the sake of a warrior having a purpose.

Make bash and kick skill up quicker that weapon skills. Same with rescue. With a couple IC years of training a warrior should be pretty damned good at getting between people, and controlling the battlefield. With bash, disarm, and guard/rescue a warrior's skill set is superior in combat. Its just that type of combat doesn't occur and, when it does, warriors are often institutionally untrained.

Warriors are Arena fodder, and generally useless otherwise.

Disarm, bash, kick, and rescue already skill up way faster than weapon skills.

Warriors are not even nearly useless, at all.  Yes, they are a little boring, but whatever.  You sacrifice utility for the ability to tank -and- faceroll.  Having a single warrior with decent defense and rescue means the noob squishy rangers in your clan don't get eaten before they skill up a little.  Also, since the new skill-up code has gone in, it means everyone else in your clan can potentially skill up faster.  Basically, as a warrior in a clan, job #1 is to make sure all the non-hackers without the parry skill don't die while they're in the process of skilling up.  Also, like...how many epic stories are there of warriors, versus any other class?  It's the class you want to pick if you want to live a long time, because it's a lot more difficult to die by accident or random PK.

Aside:  the edge of the salt flats -should- be kinda safe, because the whole point of salting is to allow solo noob PCs to scrape by until they get some skillz.  Requiring them to team up with a warrior would entirely defeat the purpose.

[Warsong]

Not to be mean, but a lot of the suggestions in this thread are really disappointing to read, like the idea of splitting up rangers or merging pickpockets and burglars (I'd rather they both be given a truly unique flavor. Being renamed is okay, but losing another urban stealth class would make me cry). Getting rid of warriors? Sheesh.

This is why tinkering with the main guilds is such a difficult undertaking. Sure, some of the classes need LOVE and BALANCING but I don't think I want a total redo of the entire class structure.

Eh, I think the guild system is inherently awful and can stand to be changed as much as the coders can stomach redesigning it. I would vastly prefer something more like the RPI Codebase system where you simply pick, say, eight skills, and then you can learn additional ones during play if you like, but have a maximum total stat points that depends on wisdom (holy shit, making wisdom a good stat for non-mages!) This will let people choose the skills that actually suit their character, eliminates guild sniffing completely, and is infinitely more realistic and suitable for a roleplaying game.

I realize this is a pipe dream and would take way more work than can be expected, but any move in that direction is an improvement in my book. This whole notion of 'you picked warrior when you created your character so you are incapable of ever learning to sneak' sort of thing doesn't belong in an RPI game. It's actually completely anti-RP. It belongs in hack'n'slash games where arbitrary gamist rules determine character development.

[RogueGunslinger]

What about a pick system where if you select too many skills in one of Utility/Stealth/Combat you lose access to selecting skills from the other spheres, better skills would "cost" more. That would make it so that other guilds would still need to depend on each other where it mattered, but also allow for an overall blending of classes when it came to their less "core" skills.

There's probably a slew of problems/benifits that come with it though.

[Doublepalli]

I've played majority warriors, a few rangers, burglars and assassins. Unless the warrior in question is untrained, and the ranger is well-trained and amazing statted, they are going to get the crap kicked out of them without a question. And if the ranger is well-trained and amazing, he could just shoot him in the eye with a perrained arrow from a distance. While warriors don't really have alot in terms of other skills, they serve their purpose just fine. It depends on where you take your warrior to get trained. If you can actually get adequate training for your warrior, and if you're well-statted just like that ranger, with the right subguild you're going to be riding down that ranger the moment they even think about shooting at you. Or you can shoot back, or impale them with a javelin, right off their mount. In my eyes, warriors are already pretty strong, and it's up to you how you utilize their skillset. Advanced weapons do take FOREVER to branch though, and once you get to the point of branching them, you're already way too strong, and can't really even train them, because no other warrior (or guild period) will be able to defend, even with training weapons. While super strong I know, it'd be nice to have a change in regards to advanced weaponry. Having them branched sooner would make warriors able to serve their intended purpose. Warriors! Tell me why mages can spend no time maxing out, but some people have to spend over a real life year to branch a weapon skill?

[Dresan]

Rangers:

• should lose throw
• weapons should be capped right at advanced.
• Rangers should start with sneak, and branch listen from it, but capped at advanced.

I don't want to say something like throw is a city skill, but I think rangers have enough ranged skills with archery. They can afford to lose this. Weapon skills should be capped slightly lower, but advanced is still pretty damn good and most people don't even reach that. Finally I feel starting with sneak is a nice boon for anyone not starting with a sneak guild. Over all these wouldn't be nerfs most people would even notice.

Warrior:

• Should be able to ride hands-free.
• Should eventually branch direction sense when they branch blindfighting.
• Should start with basic weapons skills at apprentice.

I roll ranger/protector and I think the only thing I'd be missing out on is disarm at best, because if my warrior lives long enough to branch weapon skills then I'm probably having as much fun as I could with the character. Warriors don't need much, they just need a little bit more utility so they have a bit more freedom to select sub-guilds, hands free ride and eventual direction sense are really it so they can be the leaders they are destined to be. Starting at apprentice weapons is just a bonus that I think warriors should have, in the same way other classes start off with plenty in apprentice.

Assassin:

• Should eventually branch slashing and chopping weapons at apprentice, journeyman max.
• bludgeoning weapons to journeyman
• piercing weapons to master but no branching
• Should lose sap
• Should gain master throw, master climb, master watch, and have best eyes in the game.

Assassin should be masters of killing and pretty good at fighting at the end of their career.  GOOD but not GREAT. Again while you can argue sap is something they develop, I would rather give that as a unique thing to Rogues and improve their overall killing abilities.

Burglar and pickpocket should be merged. Or give pickpocket lock picking and pick making, advanced throw and that's it. Making master sap unique to them would also help them out greatly to make them a unique but strong class

Regional weapon boosts currently mostly benefit warriors and rangers , which is why I feel they should be removed and have warriors weapon skills all begin at apprentice

[Synthesis]

Master sap for pickpockets, lol.

I'm just going to register my complete disagreement with that one.  I'm not explaining why.

[titansfan]

Just add skills and make everything freaking awesome.  More fun for everyone!