Main Guild Discussion

[tiptoe]

I've played majority warriors, a few rangers, burglars and assassins. Unless the warrior in question is untrained, and the ranger is well-trained and amazing statted, they are going to get the crap kicked out of them without a question. And if the ranger is well-trained and amazing, he could just shoot him in the eye with a perrained arrow from a distance. While warriors don't really have alot in terms of other skills, they serve their purpose just fine. It depends on where you take your warrior to get trained. If you can actually get adequate training for your warrior, and if you're well-statted just like that ranger, with the right subguild you're going to be riding down that ranger the moment they even think about shooting at you. Or you can shoot back, or impale them with a javelin, right off their mount. In my eyes, warriors are already pretty strong, and it's up to you how you utilize their skillset. Advanced weapons do take FOREVER to branch though, and once you get to the point of branching them, you're already way too strong, and can't really even train them, because no other warrior (or guild period) will be able to defend, even with training weapons. While super strong I know, it'd be nice to have a change in regards to advanced weaponry. Having them branched sooner would make warriors able to serve their intended purpose. Warriors! Tell me why mages can spend no time maxing out, but some people have to spend over a real life year to branch a weapon skill?

I definitely agree with changing something with advanced weapon skills. By the time you manage to branch an advanced weapon skill, other combat skills such as two-handed and dual wield (in my experience) are already or are very close to being mastered as well. This is itself makes training the advanced weapon almost impossible, mainly for the fact that you just don't miss. I think there's some potential for schematics to change here. I enjoy having the advanced weapon skills, but I feel like maybe they should have some differences in the way they are skilled up (maybe make fails include more than just misses?).

I don't know. I enjoy playing warriors, especially with an outdoorsy subguild. I think they could use a little love, for sure, but largely I like the way they are set up.

[Molten Heart]

The only CODE-robust thing I think the stealth classes need is a disguise ability. No, not more stealth, that shit is OP and I love it to my wee-wee and back. Disguising yourself as another person, SOMEHOW. Be a con man, but don't burn your entire identity because one person knows you're Jim Amos, the guy from the Gaj last night. Sneak into a Noble's estate not because you stole some aides cloak, but because you're DISGUISED to look like one. "Infiltrate" various clans in the world by disguising yourself as a lowly hunter who needs a job, but isn't immediately recognizable as Lady Hardpants' aide because people know sdescs.

This would be a cool skill.  Something that would allow you (on success) to acquire a "clanned" flag.  Still up to you to assemble any necessary pieces of identifying gear.  For example Disguise Byn, might grant add the Byn clan to your list of "jobs" for a short duration, but anyone in the compound might notice you don't have a patch or forgot to salute the sergeant or were totally skipping out on whatever duty was supposed to be happening.  Likely a bitch to code for, but a cool concept for a skill.

Allow rogue guilds to have one or more alternate short and main descriptions they'd create in charter generation. Then allow for some in game mechanic that'd allow them to change between the "fake" description and the main description. I think this would put rogue guilds in high demand for a while.

[Dresan]

Master sap for pickpockets, lol.

I'm just going to register my complete disagreement with that one.  I'm not explaining why.

So the same approach as usual? trololol  


Anyways , not master sap for pickpockets, but the guild Super Rogue, consisting of the merging of pickpockets and burglars guilds. Besides pickpockets already get sap and bludgeoning weapons, just upping their levels slightly, but more importantly making it unique to them. This is a knockout move and is better suited for thieves. They can keep throw but not poison.

This would really with the other changes proposed. The guilds would all be strong and have a variety of unique things to offer.

[Sunburned]

Master sap for pickpockets, lol.

I'm just going to register my complete disagreement with that one.  I'm not explaining why.

So the same approach as usual? trololol  


Anyways , not master sap for pickpockets, but the guild Super Rogue, consisting of the merging of pickpockets and burglars guilds. Besides pickpockets already get sap and bludgeoning weapons, just upping their levels slightly, but more importantly making it unique to them. This is a knockout move and is better suited for thieves. They can keep throw but not poison.

This would really with the other changes proposed. The guilds would all be strong and have a variety of unique things to offer.

He is pointing out what is obvious to people who have played a character with maxed assassin sap; its so powerful, that it should be exclusive to the guild that's devoted to taking motherfuckers out.  Its an incredibly powerful (and abusable) skill that is intentionally hard to acquire.

[Dresan]

And I already pointed out that pickpockets get sap to a very use-able levels already, having masochistically played the guild myself. A little more won't hurt. Not to assassin would be get buffed already under my ideas.


But yeah, thank you for pointing out exactly what he was thinking somehow, and explaining it for him, somehow... since I was thinking he was referring to something selse which would have probably made more sense and been a stronger argument.  

[Tannhäuser]

Not to be mean, but a lot of the suggestions in this thread are really disappointing to read ...

That's a strange sentiment.  They are, after all, only suggestions.

[Zenith]

Yeah.... I'm that girl that posts in the wrong thread.

[hyzhenhok]

Master sap for pickpockets, lol.

I'm just going to register my complete disagreement with that one.  I'm not explaining why.

So the same approach as usual? trololol  


Anyways , not master sap for pickpockets, but the guild Super Rogue, consisting of the merging of pickpockets and burglars guilds. Besides pickpockets already get sap and bludgeoning weapons, just upping their levels slightly, but more importantly making it unique to them. This is a knockout move and is better suited for thieves. They can keep throw but not poison.

This would really with the other changes proposed. The guilds would all be strong and have a variety of unique things to offer.

He is pointing out what is obvious to people who have played a character with maxed assassin sap; its so powerful, that it should be exclusive to the guild that's devoted to taking motherfuckers out.  Its an incredibly powerful (and abusable) skill that is intentionally hard to acquire.

That is not a particularly good reason. It's not like there would no longer be any reason to roll an assassin if you gave max sap to pickpockets. You can change how sap branches on pickpocket if you want to keep it hard to obtain. Make it branch off sleight of hand and it'll take much longer to get on pickpocket than on assassin.

[Inks]

No it wouldn't. Some of these suggestions make me want to be buried alive.

I would prefer something that seperates pp from other stealth guilds. Master disarm representing snatch and grabs or tailoring represent making disguises. Thematic but different.

For pickpocket, both skills wouldnt be much of a power creep.

[Dresan]

At the end of the day it comes down to this, what is the theme of the guild:

Warriors are all being superior in head to head combat
Rangers are all about desert survival
Assassins are all about assassinating their targets
Merchants are all about being awesome

The last guild should have just been called thief, with its focus and theme simply being thievery.

However, right now pickpocket and burglar both revolve around thievery, and their skill sets broken down into two lines: stealing from people and stealing from apartments. It sounds good on paper but in practice these are two very narrow niches, especially when you consider how easily any other class can do these things with the right sub-guild and how much risk you are taking for what is very  often little reward.  I think these two guilds should be merged, given master sap allowing them to disable and steal from squishy rich looking targets. Since, again, this would now fit with the overall theme.

Otherwise, right now you can ranger/cut-purse/rogue or assassin/bounty hunter/etc/etc  and get quite a bit of mileage in my opinion because both pickpocket and burglar revolve around very specific skills, not really a broader theme like the other guilds .

[Jihelu]

Everytime you play a pickpocket you'll probably want to be a burglar.
Vice versa.
And everytime you play both you'll just want to be ranger.
And when you play ranger you'll wish you were warrior.
And when you want something mastercrafted you'll want to be merchant.

[Synthesis]

Sap is a PK skill, yo.

You keep acting like, "oh, it's just to steal people's pants while they're asleep."

No.

It is to knock people the fuck out, then a) kill them on the spot or b) drag them somewhere else and kill them.

I mean, it's like saying, "Oh, haha, heramide and peraine, lol...they're just for thieving around!  Stealing boots!"

Also, comparing jman sap to master sap is like comparing jman archery to master archery.

That is...there's really no comparison.

[hyzhenhok]

I can only assume your premise is guild_pickpocket should not be able to PK. I see no reason why we should accept that.

[CodeMaster]

disarm representing snatch and grabs

I like this for pickpockets.

[Synthesis]

I can only assume your premise is guild_pickpocket should not be able to PK. I see no reason why we should accept that.

Uh, no.

Did I say that anywhere? No.

Any guild can PK.  Only certain guilds should be good at it.  I've never said "take away sap from pickpockets."  I'm fine with it being capped at jman.  A pickpocket can get lucky every once in awhile, and that's okay.

Only one mundane guild should be the undisputed master of instantly knocking you right the fuck out, and that's:  assassin.

[Warsong]

Journeyman sap is almost unusable, anyway. The odds of knocking someone out with it vs. the completely insane lag you incur after usage makes it frankly suicidal to even attempt, especially on a guild that won't be able to defend itself very well during those 20+ seconds of helplessness.

[Jihelu]

I can only assume your premise is guild_pickpocket should not be able to PK. I see no reason why we should accept that.

Uh, no.

Did I say that anywhere? No.

Any guild can PK.  Only certain guilds should be good at it.  I've never said "take away sap from pickpockets."  I'm fine with it being capped at jman.  A pickpocket can get lucky every once in awhile, and that's okay.

Only one mundane guild should be the undisputed master of instantly knocking you right the fuck out, and that's:  assassin.

I think Burglar should be able to as well but then burglars become assassins with the ability of taking your house as well.

[Dar]

I'm all for combining burglars and pickpockets to create one singular broad niche thieving class. But ... in all honesty, in my opinion, if one is to do that then the class should lose all those awesome skills that pickpockets get that makes them a very very "VERY" passable fighters. They get parry, they get sap, they get throw. I think they should lose sap and parry. But have throw to what burglars have and poison at some useable, but imperfect levels.  Make Rogues almost like a merchant class. Excellent at everything related to theft, infiltration, and escape from sticky situation. Give them throw/poison just to give them some kind of vague danger affinity. But if the rogue ever decides to take someone face to face in open combat, they should be punished for their stupidity.  If necessary, give them +10 defence -10 offense in the beginning to show that these guys are 'not' about killing/harming folk at all, but are capable of evading and escape of sticky situations.

[hyzhenhok]

Only one mundane guild should be the undisputed master of instantly knocking you right the fuck out, and that's:  assassin.

Why?

[Synthesis]

Only one mundane guild should be the undisputed master of instantly knocking you right the fuck out, and that's:  assassin.

Why?

Because that's how guilds work?

[Dresan]

My only problem with your arguement synthesis is that you are practically saying a player that plays assassin/bounty hunter is going to be a better assassin with just sap then somene who relies on both backstab and poisons.

I don't know how true this actually is, I don't believe its that true at all, but for arguement sake I'd be willing to give you the benefit fo the doubt. However, I feel that even if it were true, I don't think sap shouldn't be a better killing alternative then backstab/poison. If only just due to the fact you have to invest so much time/money and effort into both poison/ingredients and grind to use both poison and backstab effectively.  

[Sunburned]

My only problem with your arguement synthesis is that you are practically saying a player that plays assassin/bounty hunter is going to be a better assassin with just sap then somene who relies on both backstab and poisons.

I don't know how true this actually is, but I feel that even if it were true, I don't think sap shouldn't be a better killing alternative then backstab/poison. If only just due to the fact you have to invest so much time/money and effort into both poison/ingredients and grind to use both poison and backstab effectively.  

That's not implicit in his argument at all.

Its simply that the potential to master backstab, poison, and sap are part of the core defining skills for an assassin, and they should exclusive to them, for the same reason that warriors don't have master archery, and so on...

[Qzzrbl]

Sap and bludgeoning weapons in general are pretty OP.

Also ranger/thug is fun.

[hyzhenhok]

Only one mundane guild should be the undisputed master of instantly knocking you right the fuck out, and that's:  assassin.

Why?

Because that's how guilds work?

Is it really? The guilds step on each other's toes all the time. Pickpockets with better sap aren't going to suddenly usurp the assassin's position.

And even if "that's how guilds work" right now, that's not an argument for keeping it that way.

Its simply that the potential to master backstab, poison, and sap are part of the core defining skills for an assassin, and they should exclusive to them, for the same reason that warriors don't have master archery, and so on...

You still didn't explain why they should remain exclusive. It also isn't self explanatory why warrior's shouldn't be given better archery.

I'm seeing a lot of "Keep the status quo because status quo" arguments in this thread. I'm not necessarily saying it's a good idea to give pickpockets max sap or warriors max archery, but I think a lot of people are allowing the discussion to be hamstrung for no reason.

[Synthesis]

Refusing to hear the reasons does not equal not being given reasons.