Main Guild Discussion

[RogueGunslinger]

I would like to see Ranger broken down into two guilds, one utility and one combat, and combine the three city guilds into the same configuration.  City guilds get city quit.  Warriors stay on top of combat, and Merchants still craft everything under the sun.  I don't care to pontificate on specifics, it's only my unerring desire for balance.

I like this, not sure if it works for skill balance but I like it. The idea being that Warrior, while the best combatants, will have the least of utility skills, but enough from both city and wilderness classes to get by without being annoying.

A general idea of the main guilds would be something like:

Ranger-
Wilderness stealth max
Bandaging
Brew
Scan
Tanning/leatherworking
ride-max

Hunter-
Wilderness stealth-advanced 
Archry-max
ride- to charge/trample
Poison/Brew
Parry-Journeyman

Warrior-
Parry/shield-max
No-hands ride
Branch scan
Armor maintenance skills
Trample
advanced weapons

Assassin-
City stealth-advanced
Throw-master
Backstab/sap-max
Parry-journeyman
lockpick- journeyman

Rogue-
City stealth-max
lockpick- max
listen- max
scan- max
pickmaking

[BadSkeelz]

A general idea of the main guilds would be something like:

Ranger-
Wilderness stealth max
Bandaging
Brew
Scan
Tanning/leatherworking
ride-max

Hunter-
Wilderness stealth-advanced  
Archry-max
ride- to charge/trample
Poison/Brew
Parry-Journeyman

Seems kind of a weird skill break down and kind of incoherent. What's that Ranger guild really suppsoed to accomplish on their own? I wouldn't play either of them.

To Elaborate: If we "broke Ranger up" ... If you want just utility skills with an outdoor flavor, a Merchant/Outdoorsman is probably your best bet. If you want a fighty-type with some outdoor or mounted flavor, I'd rather take a Warrior and a riding/archery subguild than the Hunter.

I still feel that Rangers are a great trifecta of Combat, Utility, and Crafting. If I had to choose one thing to lose out of there I would lose the crafting, knowing I could retrieve (or replace) it with a subguild. But I would prefer to see other Guilds get another leg (or two) added to their tripods.

[Dresan]

Yeah I don't want to see anymore burgalar and pickpocket watered down guilds, as opposed to more stronger wholesome ranger guilds that are awesome to play.

[RogueGunslinger]

Seems kind of a weird skill break down and kind of incoherent. What's that Ranger guild really suppsoed to accomplish on their own? I wouldn't play either of them.

Well, that's because you're probably excluding all the other things they would get that rangers currently get. It's just those skills would be the focus. For instance both would still have master direction sense, wilderness quit, master skinning, master forage, forage food and so on. .

Also:

not sure if it works for skill balance but I like it.

Rough idea. If you want combat prowess you sacrifice utility, is the concept

[BadSkeelz]

Even with those skills you've mentioned (what I would call Utility), splitting Ranger in to those two guilds just doesn't make a very appealing sale for me. Utility without Combat seems pointless (unless your crafting is high enough to generate coin to buy Combat from someone else). Little point in climbing that cliff if something living at the top immediately bites your head off.

I feel like every Mundane should be able to do at least one thing Great, one thing Good, and one thing Okay. Call those groups Utility, Combat, Stealth, and Craft.

Currently, Rangers are The Best at Utility (forage, climb, ride, desnse, etc), good at combat, and okay at crafting AND stealth.

Currently, Warriors are "Great" at Combat in the sense they get all the combat skills and, theoretically, advanced weapon skills. We could go back and forth at whether they're truly Great or the Best at combat ad nauseum. What I think is less debatable is that Warriors have nothing else that they're good or even OK at. Except, I guess, Skinning.

I invite people with more experience of other guilds to sketch their own tripods and make suggestions of what needs improving on them.

[Synthesis]

Just to be clear:  a stealth skill capped at advanced is not useful for PvP, and is barely functional for PvE.  The idea of capping the assassin main guild at advanced sneak and hide is ludicrous.

[Case]

Just to be clear:  a stealth skill capped at advanced is not useful for PvP, and is barely functional for PvE.  The idea of capping the assassin main guild at advanced sneak and hide is ludicrous.

Or we improve stealth code?

[BadSkeelz]

Preferably both. But it's easier to adjust skill caps than the system itself. So long as the system is broken, don't gimp those who have to rely on it.

[JackGibbons]

I play mostly rangers and I'm confused at what crafting people are talking about that is apparently so OP.
You can make:

-your own arrows, which seems reasonable for a competent outdoorsman. I've never tried to sell these, but I suppose the combinations of heads and feathers would create exploitable coin possibilities.
-soaps, which I'm fine with losing, provided tablet brew is revamped to actually use/raise the skill. Soaps always felt like a weird hack. It's convenient not having to schlep over to a soap shop to stay clean, though.
-your own bandages. I've also never tried to sell these.
-just enough tanning to rip expensive pelts. Being able to sell the tanned and untanned versions of the easier pelts while using good tools can be a decent money maker. Personally I made a lot of money from PC to PC sales rather than the hides shop.
- and you get the same decent cook as everyone else.

Anything else would come from SG/ESG which is available to any other guild, though Rangers are well suited for bringing in their own materials.

Barring soaps, I don't think that modest tanning, fletchery, and one's own bandages are really an encroachment on merchants who get dozens of crafting skills. Barring tanning, they're all essential survival skills for the wilderness character this guild encompasses, unless we want to force people to come into cities to buy what they need. The various scattered bases and quit locations, though, seem to suggest that a wilderness wanderer who only comes to market on occasion is a viable, supported playstyle. In fact, I find it rather appealing and suppose that others might as well.

[Synthesis]

I don't know why y'all are fighting so hard over the damn fletchery skill.

If rangers get nerfed, you should PRAY that it's only the fletchery skill that gets jacked.

[BadSkeelz]

Nerf fletchery, buff slings

[Synthesis]

Merge Pickpocket and Burglar into guild Griefer

[hyzhenhok]

@badskeelz, I'd say there are three axes: stealth, combat and utility. Ranger is off the charts because it has its fingers deep in all three axes, and it is the indisputable master of the entire utility axis. For warrior and the stealth guilds, they are either/or.

Since nerfing ranger is off the table and giving warrior and stealth guilds more of the other axes to push them towards ranger just kind of dilutes the guilds, I would say the remaining fix is to give the stealth and warrior guilds more toys on their specialist axis that ranger does not get.

Unfortunately, this is probably the most involved way to address the problem. It'd involve things like:

• Merge pickpocket and burglar. (New class is now much further down both the stealth and utility axes.)
• Add an "evade" skill unique to the pickpocket/burglar that allows them to seamlessly vanish from combat into stealth, gith-like. (both stealth and combat axis)
  
• Give assassin an advanced weapon skill. (Assassin is more differentiated from ranger along the combat axis.)
• Give assassin a unique skill that allows it to briefly distract guards, defeat rescues, be untargetable by >kill or >assist. (stealth & combat.)
• Give warrior an anti-cavalry skill. (Warrior is more differentiated along the combat axis.)
• Give warrior a unique skill for resisting poison & magick. (ditto)
• etc.

[Warsong]

No class should need to grind hardcore combat for weeks and months in order to branch parry. Parry should be given as a starting skill to everyone that gets it. The fact that it generally takes 400+ hours of play for a ranger to learn to deflect blows is nothing short of absurd. Having to master the most difficult fighting style in order to learn the most basic combat maneuver makes no sense.

The notion that some people are just literally helpless against anything hidden is silly. Every class should get scan to at least advanced, probably even the lowest master level. Those who get it higher remain experts, and just 10 points in scan makes a huge difference. I also think the game sorely needs a way to actively search out hidden entities that you know are there. If someone has shadowed you into your apartment and you know they're there, you shouldn't have to resign yourself to the fact that they cannot be found. Make it slow enough that anyone can sneak away if able. Also, a way to point out and reveal a hidden entity that you've spotted.

The wilderness and city stealth distinction is problematic. Either just do away with it and let everyone with stealth use it in both places, or make it so that getting proper stealth in the opposite environment of your guild takes more than just the right choice of subguild. For many characters, the opportunity cost of taking anything other than the subguild that gives you dual stealth is huge. It shouldn't be something people take just because it's better in case they some day end up in that environment, and it shouldn't be something where you're just forever screwed if you didn't pick the right subguild at creation. If nothing else, make it something that can be learned, like accents. Right now, if I make an assassin and take anything other than outlaw (or whatever extended subguilds give the same), I can never use this character in the wilderness. If I make a ranger and don't have an express need for some specific subguild that pertains to the role, I'm overwhelmingly encouraged to take thief/rogue/whatever just in case having city stealth is one day useful for me, completely without any sort of regard for whether or not this fits the character in any way. I could have never set foot inside a settlement but somehow know city stealth just because I have that OOC knowledge of this mechanic. This should change.

[Synthesis]

The city/outdoor distinction is fine.

It makes you think hard about choosing a crafting subguild for monies and trading contacts or stealth.

The problem for rangers is that it's so damn easy to make money without any crafting skills, that the value of a crafting subguild (for me, anyway) is usually vastly overshadowed by the value of dual stealth.  Also, if you plan on just being in a clan and being on the clan payroll with the clan perks, you don't need a crafting subguild to make money, so you might as well pick something useful like dual stealth (or mini-warrior, or protector).  It's not really players trying to min-max, it's just that crafting and selling to NPCs isn't that big a deal.  This has changed somewhat with the mastercraft ESGs, because now you can write new items (which is both fun and rewarding IC, because people love dat Armageddon Dress-Up game).

And it's really only a ranger problem.  Playing an assassin/hunter successfully is fucking -hard-.  Shitty ride and no flee for the first several days means most of them die horrible deaths early on.  Also, you have to MASTER poisoning before you ever brew your first tablet.  That suuuuuuucks.  By comparison, ranger/rogue/slipknife is pretty chill if you have half a brain to work with.  I can't imagine seriously rolling a pickpocket/burglar dual stealth, because...why?  Planting coins on mobs so they drop loot like a stock DIKU would lose its charm fairly quickly, I think.

[whitt]

Add an "evade" skill unique to the pickpocket/burglar that allows them to seamlessly vanish from combat into stealth, gith-like. (both stealth and combat axis)

Because Flee e,e,e,e,e,e,n,e,u,hide isn't good enough?

The Predator should wish for the Arm-like stealth abilities that allow someone to follow you through a claustrophobicly narrow hallway and through a door faster than someone can close the door behind them.  Being able to cloak in combat would be some top-level BS.

I'd even vote for just the opposite.  The same timer that won't let you quit out of the game should prevent you from hiding.  You are far to excited to hide, catch your breath and try again later.

[Armaddict]

Eh...hiding after running away from someone who wants you dead is a pretty staple survival strategy.

[hyzhenhok]

Add an "evade" skill unique to the pickpocket/burglar that allows them to seamlessly vanish from combat into stealth, gith-like. (both stealth and combat axis)

Because Flee e,e,e,e,e,e,n,e,u,hide isn't good enough?

The Predator should wish for the Arm-like stealth abilities that allow someone to follow you through a claustrophobicly narrow hallway and through a door faster than someone can close the door behind them.  Being able to cloak in combat would be some top-level BS.

I'd even vote for just the opposite.  The same timer that won't let you quit out of the game should prevent you from hiding.  You are far to excited to hide, catch your breath and try again later.

Let's just remove all stealth classes from the game, then. We can all be warriors or merchants. Problem solved.

[whitt]

Let's just remove all stealth classes from the game, then. We can all be warriors or merchants. Problem solved.

Nope.  Just saying asking for more "better-than-magick" as a "mundane" skill seems pretty over the top.

Eh...hiding after running away from someone who wants you dead is a pretty staple survival strategy.

There is a marked difference between going somewhere the person isn't looking and codedly vanishing into thin air.  I'm all for running to the rooftops, the Rinth, an apartment or the Byn compound to "hide out".  Being able to round a corner and *poof*?  Not so much.  Heck, the corner is optional, really.

[shadeoux]

I can't imagine seriously rolling a pickpocket/burglar dual stealth, because...why?  Planting coins on mobs so they drop loot like a stock DIKU would lose its charm fairly quickly, I think.

LOL

[hyzhenhok]

Let's just remove all stealth classes from the game, then. We can all be warriors or merchants. Problem solved.

Nope.  Just saying asking for more "better-than-magick" as a "mundane" skill seems pretty over the top.

I can describe every mundane skill in the game as equivalent to or better than magick. There are many crafting and utility skills that fit the bill. That doesn't make it a reasonable description.

Rooms and the stealth code are abstractions, and you aren't the sole arbiter deciding what they mean (especially considering you are unlikely to know the whole story when stealth is in the equation!). Please give people the benefit of the doubt.

[evilcabbage]

Let's just remove all stealth classes from the game, then. We can all be warriors or merchants. Problem solved.

Nope.  Just saying asking for more "better-than-magick" as a "mundane" skill seems pretty over the top.

I can describe every mundane skill in the game as equivalent to or better than magick. There are many crafting and utility skills that fit the bill. That doesn't make it a reasonable description.

Rooms and the stealth code are abstractions, and you aren't the sole arbiter deciding what they mean (especially considering you are unlikely to know the whole story when stealth is in the equation!). Please give people the benefit of the doubt.

most people do not give people the benefit of the doubt strictly because they know how often people will abuse the code to get their win.

so, there's that.

[whitt]

I can describe every mundane skill in the game as equivalent to or better than magick.

I'd doubt that, but a skill that enables a mob to vanish into thin air, while someone (or a whole group of people) are actively pounding on you?  Yeah.  I'd challenge you to find any mundane skill similar.  The closest I can think of?  Hide.  Works right in the middle of a conversation.

Rooms and the stealth code are abstractions, and you aren't the sole arbiter deciding what they mean (especially considering you are unlikely to know the whole story when stealth is in the equation!). Please give people the benefit of the doubt.

Oh I do.  I also look at coded skills (which are the sole arbiter on deciding whether someone can or cannot be targeted in this case) and reasonably consider how they could be abstracted to work ICly in the situation they are described and how they could be abused by someone significantly less concerned with shouldering their portion of that benefit.

In this case, there is little IC excuse for the vanishing act you suggest and a huge potential for a skillset already wide open to abuse to be made even more abusive.  Benefit of the doubt given, still not something I would want to see.  Accomplish this with Flee and Hide.  These skills already exist. 

[Malifaxis]

Rangers shouldn't even fucking get parry.

Rangers should range, and bow shit to death.

And if you can't flee/vanish from persuers, you don't need a better skill because you are going to use it wrong too.

Sneakies are Arm easy-mode, they don't need more ways to vanish.  They need to be more robust in other ways.

[Jihelu]

I feel like rangers shouldn't have to range things to death, they should just be really good at killing things outdoors....
Which translates to ranging things to death most days.
But that warrior with master shield use and four shields...he....he annoys me